Fellow Cussler fans, I am wondering why recent Cussler books do suffer from very fantastic (=unrealistic) technical contraptions that were not present in older books like Vixen 03, Night Probe, Iceberg etc. One example of the current trend is the NUMA ship Sea Sprite in Trojan Odyssey. According to the Finnish edition it is capable of speeds nearly 40 knots due to its advanced machinery. Sorry Clive, no can do! I assume "nearly 40 kts" to mean over 35 kts. Earlier in the description of the ship it is said that it is a former icebreaker/tug. Icebreakers have a hull form very unsuitable for high speeds which means that to achieve speeds even near 35 kts would require so much power that the hull would have no room for anything else but machinery and fuel.

This kind of exaggeration has no place in Cussler books.

This a just showing advancing technolgy. You know 50 years ago many things were science fiction. Today they are science facts. New concepts in engines come from some one elses minds. This books are fiction so you can't expect them to what we have come to see in our life at this moment. Who knows what may be in another 25 years. Take it with a grain of salt and enjoy the story. That's what it's about. w:

I enjoy the story but it has nothing to do with advancing tech. Even advancing tech cannot overrule laws of physics and it is a fact that an icebreaker type displacement hull ship do not like speeds over 20 kts. I´d estimate that the Sea Sprite would require at least 150,000 shp to achieve 35 kts. That is about the same power as an Essex-class carrier has. To do 38 kts would take 190,000 shp and 40 kts 225,000 shp. And you can´t fit 190,000 shp marine propulsion in a 300 ft vessel. Besides, Trojan Odyssey takes place in 2006!

As I said, such impossible gadgets were not present in older CC books.

"Impossible gadgets" were mentioned by Cussler in the first pages of his first book, Pacific Vortex. And this one's a whopper!

The Starbuck was built in San Francisco from the keel up, as no other sub had been built before; every component, every system in her pressure hull, was computer designed. The first of a new generation of underwater ships—the beginning of a submerged city capable of cruising at one hundred twenty-five knots through the timeless depths two thousand feet beneath the sunlit surface.

Clive raised the Titanic. Dirk and Al survived in a Desert for nearly a week after sinking half the Benin navy with a super-yacht. He invented nuclear warheads small enough to fit in a car's AC compressor. He brainwashed the president of the United States from a river barge. Dirk survived a 50+ mile (?) ride through a pitch-black, twisting underground river. The U.S. and Canada signed a treaty to become one nation.

Granted these are not all technological advances, but they represent the kind of truth-bending that we've come to love and expect from the good Doctor. You're probably right that with our current technology and expected advances in the near future that the icebreaker tug could not reach 40 knots, but I've found it best to just believe the phrase "advanced machinery" and not pay too much attention to the details. It sounds like you have a greater knowledge of reality, though, so I'm sure it's harder for you to do that. (note, this last sentence could surely be read with assumed sarcasm but I assure you that was not my intent).

Also, I'm not sure what the exact description was, but if it was indeed a "former" icebreaker tug could they have not made certain modifications that would make it easier to reach greater speeds (e.g. streamlining the hull)? Perhaps the advanced machinery utilizes a new form of propulsion as opposed to the trusty twin screws idea.

Wow this was way longer than I thought it would be, I don't mean to ramble on. I'm glad you got us thinking about this!

I will concede, though, that the nanotechnology and oil teleportation were indeed over the top. So to completely circumnavigate my argument I will agree with you to some extent.

w:

P.S. This might not be entirely related but I thought that the overall quality of V.R. and T.O. in general were well below the usual standards. Perhaps in that regard it's a good thing that Dirk Cussler is taking over the series because maybe Clive just doesn't have it in him to write full stories anymore. I mean, goodness he's getting on in years and has been at it for so long it's understandable with all the other distractions he has in his life right now. :blink:

Erik, thank you, You said that better thanI did. I don't have the knowlodge in respect to the actual machanics of the machinery. this is not to say you are 100% wrong pasoleati. It is just my way of looking are Dr. Cussler's books. I just enjoy them. w:

Well, it is indeed true that CC books do tend to bend the realism and I don´t care about that. Just for some reason this case got under my skin and bad. Trojan Odyssey mentions "magnetohydrodynamic" propulsion*. As I do believe that I know what is meant with that I also know that such system cannot change the hull form´s resistance.

*It has been proposed that electromagnetism can be used to propel water through a large diameter pipe and then discharge it via a waterjet creating a near silent (no moving parts in contact with water) propulsion especially suitable for submarines.

I found this info on the net ;


Magnetohydrodynamic drive

A Magnetohydrodynamic drive or MHD propulsor, is a method proposed for propelling seagoing vessels. An electric current is passed through seawater in the presence of an intense magnetic field. Functionally, the seawater is the moving, conductive part of an electric motor. Pushing the water out the back accelerates the vehicle.

MHD is attractive to engineers because it has no moving parts, which means that a good design might be silent, reliable, efficient and inexpensive. Also known as a caterpillar drive for submarines, this was popularised in the movie The Hunt for Red October as being a "silent drive," an undetectable stealth superweapon in submarine warfare. In reality, the current traveling through the water would create a great amount of gases, and thus noise.

In the 1990s, Mitsubishi built several prototypes of ships propelled by an MHD system. These ships were only able to reach speeds of 15 km/h despite projections of higher ones;



Japan began sea trials of a prototype magnetic ship. Yamato 1 is propelled by two MHD (magnetohydrodynamic) thrusters that run without any moving parts. When completed, the MHD ship should be able to attain speeds of more than 100 knots (125 miles or 200 kilometers per hour), with little noise. This is several times the top speed of today's ships, which are slowed down by turbulence created by the ship's propellers. MHD works by applying a magnetic field to an electrically conducting fluid. The electrically conducting fluid used in the MHD thruster of the Yamoto 1 is seawater. [1]

The major problem with MHD is that with current technologies it is more expensive than a propeller driven by an engine. The extra expense is from the large generator that must be driven by an engine. Such a large generator is not required when an engine directly drives a propeller.

If fuel cells become common, MHD propulsors may have lower costs in some applications than electric motors driving propellers.

A number of experimental methods of spacecraft propulsion are based on magnetohydrodynamic principles. In these the working fluid is usually a plasma or a thin cloud of ions. Some of the techniques include various kinds of ion thruster, the magnetoplasmadynamic thruster, and the variable specific impulse magnetoplasma rocket.

A link to Yamato 1 ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_1

Awesome design!! Thanks Tony. t:

Isn't the idea of a railgun that magnetic charges send bullets out the barrel? That's kind of similar to this I think.

Well, I didn´t have to resort to nets or nats for the info.

Nets or nats?

We are just trying to help you out and answer a question. The beautiful think about the internet is the information. Allow me to show some stupidity here. what is "nats?"

Nats is the same for nets as the canister is for minister. I.e. in Finnish we have e.g. saying to the effect "I don´t give a damn whether they are ministers or canisters!" What I was referring to with nets or nats comment was that I find it extremely worrying that to many, many people anything they found on the net is like some Holy Scripture while in truth most of it is pure crap.

yike: yike: That's harsh

Ahh. Kind of like that story I read about the girl with the three arms and 4 eyeballs. :lol:

Wait a minute!!! I thought all Mom's had that!! :lol:

The point is that Cussler writes Fiction and as such it will always be somewhat ahead of the curve of research being done today. But I will admit that since Cussler started down this path since NP, he has had to find something to top the previously published books which is why the early books stand out now because of the times they reflected when they were published. I think sometimes that we try to think just a bit too much including myself on such topics but it informs us and sets up a discussion among certain interested members of the forum and this may in turn cause visitors to pass on if they are not inclined this way. Thus, I will end my soapbox moment. w:

Hi guys
Long time no chat!!
Pasoleati, nice to chat don't think I,ve seen you in here before.
You have a valid point on tech here, and it seems to have put your back out a joint alittle. It would seem you know alittle about sea going machinery? Having now spent a little over 17 years in the industry maybe I can help.
No the average ice breaking vessel can't reach excessive speeds and certainly not 35/40 knots however that is based on the fact that they are moving through ice fields. There are two vessels currently in service around the world one of which is an ice capable deep ocean going salvage tug, the other I will need to get back to you on, both of these vessels can or could at launch reach speeds inexcess of 29 knots (Bustler I think is the tug, but don't quote me yet). This may not be a fantastic speed but im sure it is quite possible with tech advances going as they are to some time in the future increase this further. However I have to agree with Dirk and the guys, a large amount of what Clive writes is a head of its time and people will have probably said the same as you about the original books when they came out. PS I didn't need to use the net either, I am aware of this stuff through good old age. Still the net is excellent for quick information don't diss new technology.

Teaser, do note that going from 29 kts to e.g. 37 kts requires doubling the power.

Indeed, one of my hobbies include ships and I do take pride for knowing a decent amount on the subject despite having no connection to the industry and being a mere 33 yrs old.

Actually Teaser the ship you are thinking about is an ice crusher, the slope and slant of her bow is beautiful and she was voted one of the top 10 mechanical ships in the world AND I can't believe I can't think of her name!!!!

Cheers Empress
Will look into it I must be havin a brain fart to.
Maybe I'll look it up on the tinternet!!! Thats such a usefull tool for finding info don't ya think!!! Sorry just a warped sense of humour.:-)

No, it's a great tool!! Luckily I have 100's of ship books so if all else fails I'll internet it! Actually I think I talked about her in a post on the Ship and Sea Stories forum so I'll try to find it!

Until then, I know there is an icebreaker that can top 22 knots, once again, name escaping. Here is a good wiki list of these dangerous girls!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebreaker