Dirk Pitt as literature

We’re all huge fans of Dirk Pitt, but how far would you go in describing it as literature. Most literature scholars would scoff at the idea, but I think it qualifies. I think any form of print media that garners millions of devoted readers should, at the very least, be given a certain amount of respect that seems to be lacking in today’s literary circles. A similar argument could be made for the genres SF/Fantasy, Mystery, Horror, and Thriller. But for now let’s just focus on Clive Cusser’s Dirk Pitt novels.

What do you think?

Has anyone read some of the classic adventure novelists that have, over time, been given the respect they deserve? Off the top of my head I’m thinking of Alexandre Dumas, Jules Verne, H. Rider Haggard, Arthur Conan Doyle, Robert Louis Stevenson, and Edgar Rice Burroughs. How would you compare Clive Cussler?

From my POV literature (in a basic sense) refers to works that firstly makes one think about the real life circumstances involved in the novel and the impact on society, and secondly it draws on the imagination of the reader and entertains in the process. The Pitt series of books certainly cover the latter category, but may struggle to play a strong hand in the former. :)

I haven't really read any of the authors you noted, although I have heard of some of them.

When I think of "literature" I think of all those crappy books we had to read in High School (Great Gatsby, Native Son, Catcher in the Rye, Grapes of Wrath, To Kill a Mockingbird, Hemmingway, Shakespeare, etc). Therefore, I most definitely do NOT think of Dirk Pitt books as literature, because I enjoy Clive's books immensely. :D

It's funny to think about all those "crappy" books we read in High School because most of them are banned now. I don't think we've blown through enough decades to allow Clive Cussler, Tom Clancy and other action adventure writers to be deemed literature by the scholars and it's a real shame. It's as if an author isn't literature because it isn't thrown down your throat as required reading so it can't be worldly. What an amazing feat as an author to actually teach you about non-fiction rolled into fiction and have you want to read it and want to read more of it. Just be careful Clive, the minute your books are called "literature" they too will be banned!!!

One of my favorite books is The Grapes of Wrath and pretty much everything Steinbeck did. It's weird because you can feel his presence in Monterey and how he shaped Cannery Row, the same for Hawthorne in Salem at the House of Seven Gables.

I actually spent a week living in the cottage that Hemingway supposedly got married in. Doesn't mean I like his books now. :lol:

I devour that kind of stuff. I've been to Walden Pond just to see Thoreau's home, visited Emerson's home, stood in the apartment William's was in in New Orleans, have picture's of my friends at Poe's grave, I love it!!! Unlike you Erik, I love their books too! :P

It’s funny, but we’ve all been forced to read the same “literature” in high school, some got into it and others didn’t, but there’s just some stigma about Adventure that prevents it from being included in most curriculum. Like Empress, I was also one of the kids that actually enjoyed Fitzgerald, Hemmingway, and some of the others, but I never really accepted any of the reasons why we were not taught some of the authors I mentioned earlier – plus other writers from different genres. Instead of discussing books that were putting half the class to sleep, I would have preferred comparing Verne’s 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea with one of CC’s books. Or examining why Haggard’s King Solomon’s Mines was a best seller in the Victorian era.

I can definitely see the point made by Ghost Who Walks, and I’ve heard that argument before. As much as CC’s books lack the subtle nuances found in most award winning novels, I think what should be called a classic really boils down to audience enjoyment. I think it’s a safe argument to make that CC is the best writer in his genre in the 20th century, and thus far into the 21st. That should be a bold statement, but only if adventure novels had the same level of respect as general fiction. How can a writer be the absolute best in his field, going back to other writers 50-80 years ago, and not be listed with other literature greats?

I also thought these books were crappy in High School, come to think of it I thought the same for all books. :unsure:

Nevertheless, these days I love especially Orwell, Steinbeck, Kerouac & Dickens - for their social commentary on different eras. I am not a big fan of Jules Verne, but he did likewise. But is also great to relax and be entertained by writer's like: Ray Feist, Robin Hobb, Anne Rice, Brian Lumley, David Eddings, Ludlum and of course Mr. Cussler. beer:

Whatever your taste in books hopefully you come away entertained!! j:

What is "Classic"? In my humble opinion it is The Great Books of The World, written by the Philosophers of the Greek, Roman Empires that informed the "Founding Fathers" of the United States. They were informed of literate, logical ways of thought and purpose. There has been no comparison to them except possibly the "Modern" philosophers of the 19th and early 20th Centuries. Adventure writers did not come along until the second half of the 19th century with Verne and other "Dime" novel writers. Starting in the late 1920s "Pulp" fiction came on the scene with adventure writers. "Pulp" evolved into adventure, suspense novels of the 1960s, 1970s and beyond with Matt Helm, Ian Fleming, etc...They are most enjoyable including Clive Cussler's formula of a historical prologue followed by current adventure with ties to the prologue. In my fan fiction stories on this forum I have created my own themes of magic versus science, etc...All the well that we should come together to discuss environment, technology, love of books, etc... Books are the last bastion of older media that has yet to be digitized wholly. Jeff Bezos, the founder of Amazon is all gung ho about digitizing books and I fear as well as you might of losing that comfort of holding in your hands a book that is an enjoyable read. As I sit typing this on a 2001 Dell Computer, time is whizzing by faster and if we just sit back and not speak up, things are going to change more and more. Let us pray that our United States can survive the changes coming at us faster and faster. In 2008, I urge you to choose wisely for the Presidency because if not, I fear for our future.

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!! are you flapping on about Tony........who cares who becomes the next idiot leader of the US..that has nothing to do with Cussler as literature.

He's sold in bookstores in the fiction section...makes him literature to me. th:

Tony, love ya, but Rob is right. Would love to know what you think about Cussler being a great writer and why Dirk Pitt books should or shouldn't be in the literary circles.

:lol: Sorry to unload my ramblings there!!! Just wanted to share some thoughts on some things concerning the Classics, Politics and a warning on those who want to digitize books!!! w: Naturally, I love Dr. Cussler!!!! His books are a joy to read and terrific fiction!!! Personally, I do believe that it does take some years to pass until someone like our beloved Clive Cussler will be considered Literature and I am hoping to live long enough to see him respected as one of the "Pillars" of Literature in the last three decades of the twentieth century. w:

I think two keys of the equation are the facts that CC’s books aren’t old enough to qualify as scholarly approved “classics”, and that his genre is anything but General Fiction. Adventure novels like The Three Musketeers have to move past the century mark to be considered classics, which is made all the more unfortunate for all those bored lit. students, as by that point so much time has elapsed that the books are a lot less enjoyable than whatever the latest bestseller may be.

I asked earlier what other people’s opinions were of classic Adventure novels because I’ve given some of them a shot and found the language very hard to read. The Three Musketeers, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Robinson Crusoe, and Sherlock Holmes are just not as much fun as the Dirk Pitt books and a lot of other series that are out there today. I thought to compare them to the Dirk Pitt books because they’re all considered classics and are also in the Adventure genre.

Some contemporary novelists who have won lots of the big literature awards (Nobel Prize, Pulitzer Prize, PEN/Faulkner Award, Booker Prize, Nat. Book Award) have books out that are considered modern day classics, but as TGWW said earlier, they tap into real life circumstances that many can relate to. And I can totally understand that point, for those reasons I’m a huge fan of Ben Okri, Annie Proulx, Richard Ford, Roddy Doyle, and Don DeLillo.

One problem I have with giving some contemporary novels exclusive rights to the term “literature” is that it excludes every other genre except General Fiction. If you’re the best in the business at what you do, why not get a little more respect from your peers?

Believe it or not it is the peers that give you the most respect. Many popular authors spent most of their time reading authors who are tremendous in their field but will never be handed a check with 6 zeros in it.

I'm not a huge fan of the term "general fiction" because it excludes too many fields, not on purpose, but it does.

I do love "old", "classical" literature because the authors captured the moment in time that they wrote about and did it in the language of the period. I do agree that Verne was a hard read (especially the 20 pages of phylum on the sea creatures), Doyle had us go through page upon page of elegant speech to find the true crime but it is because of this that the authors today, Cussler included, will become classics themselves through time.

I just wanted to weigh in on something Tony mentioned that sort of got swept away.

I couldn't disagree more. The earliest known works of fiction were adventure stories. What are the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Odyssey, Jason and the Argonauts, or Beowulf if not adventure stories. In fact, these adventure stories have become (here's the dreaded L-word) literature.

Heroic fiction is more than just escapist entertainment; it's part of every cultures mythology. Sometimes those heroes are all too human, despite having a bit of divine DNA, and literary types like to focus on that. But honestly, what do we remember about Jason--that he died a bitter old man? Or that he found the Golden Fleece?

The only reason we think of penny dreadfuls, dime novels and the Purple pulps as being the genesis of adventure fiction is that it represented the first chance for common folk to actually possess those books, instead of having to listen to the stories passed down orally or read library copies.

As you can imagine, this topic is kind of close to my heart.

Leave it to a published author to give some perspective on things. w:

Clive HAS gotten some credit from his peers and fans... didn't he win the inaugural THRILLER award last year?

Very true, but as you have stated oral stories don't count as literature, so it was not until they were placed in the written word that they could be considered as such.

I would add that Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travel's was an adventure story - full of political satire - that was in print long before the second half of the 19th Century. :)

Actually Sean said they became literature. They were already in their own right action adventure stories. Every culture had their own adventure story tellers and writers, except the UK who had to wait until The Lord of the Rings, way earlier than the 19th century. Don't laugh but for all practical purposes The Old Testament was a huge action adventure novel that was told orally over and over and over until it was put into written word.

Cussler has created a classic Action/Adventure hero that will one day be required reading and everyone will know the names Dirk Pitt and Clancy's Jack Ryan even if it is for the sole purpose to teach kids about the 20th century and the use of archaic weapons and modes of transportation. Or hopefully it could be required for the simple purpose of letting the kids know the true joy of action reading.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "required reading." :lol:

Anyway, the stories I cited weren't just oral traditions, though there were plenty of those. What I meant by that statement was that there were precious few written copies of those stories, so most people would only be familiar with oral retellings of them. The Greeks were famous for presenting their myths as plays, and presumably there were script copies.

But definitely, the advent of better printing techniques and cheap paper, combined with what is obviously a very human appetite for exciting stories, led to what we now recognize as the action adventure genre.

I seem to recall a book that made some connections between Dirk Pitt and the old Doc Savage series. I'll have to check my bookshelf to see if I still have a copy. ;)

Adventure stories, either written or orally passed on, can be traced back to just about every ancient civilization in the world. Asia and Africa have some pretty cool stories that go along with their old myths. And who’s to say cave paintings were depictions of hunting techniques, a form of ancient art, or a form of storytelling? When stories reach a certain age, they start garnering the attention of scholars for historical perspective. I’m sure Dirk Pitt will be analyzed in the future, when people want to know what was dazzling readers in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. It’s also a good example of how Adventure stories as a genre have evolved to suit contemporary audiences.

Once you start pegging books as “Literature”, or any other genre for that matter, you’re going to tick some people off. One person’s literature is another person’s pulp. If age of a work is a primary qualification, then some could argue that Tolkien, Asimov, Lovecraft, Poe, and Raymond Chandler should all be considered the “L” word. But more often than not, those authors are pigeon holed into their respective genres, and not brought up in discussions of other “classics” of the 20th century.

I can respect the point of analyzing or teaching a book as a representation of social consciousness, a reflection of the world around us, human emotions, and how we interact with one another. But I also really like the point of seeing Adventure stories, including Dirk Pitt’s, as a symbol of contemporary mythology. There’s definitely a societal reflection in today’s stories written specifically for the masses.

I think Clive's books are literature. Enough said. Happy reading.