Oh boy. I was so glad we didn't watch this episode last week. I definitely couldn't have handled it. As it is, even though I've seen this episode at least four times, I still cry at the same moments: when Crystal and Denny are clearing out Zandra's stuff, when Dominic shows up with Robbie, and when Crystal reads the letter. It's just solid writing when it can evoke tears every time, even when you know what's coming.

I don't have any brilliant insights or anything, but I did have a few thoughts to get the ball rolling.


Morality and Forgiveness

I had never noticed before how much this episode is advocating a very specific morality. It's revealed in various religious discussions, but it's not necessarily religious. The first time it comes up is when Zandra and Crystal are lying in bed together, and Zandra talks about being scared of dying. And Crystal talks about how "it's like walking out of prison...leaving the bad stuff behind." So they're setting up this parallel between religious redemption and the redemption of criminal offenders. Just as people who die are taken in by God and go to heaven (even those who maybe only know the simplest of childhood prayers), so should prisoners who are redeemed/rehabilitated be welcomed back into society.

The show really emphasizes the importance of this forgiveness and welcoming. Zandra worries that God will be angry with her for never going to church or praying, but Crystal assures her that God will understand. God forgives, he understands, and he redeems. The vicar (is that the right term?) also gives a similar message at Zandra's memorial when he talks about Jesus telling the criminals who were also being executed on the cross that they would come to paradise with him. God doesn't care that Zandra was a criminal, he insists--she still gets to be in paradise. Now, to the moral conservatives watching this show, that is a pretty radical message! And yet totally grounded in a religion which most people in the UK identify with. Very sneaky of the Shed folks to position their progressive moral message this way.

Even sneakier is the way they have Crystal attack Dr. No No and tell him he's going to hell--it makes the audience want to cheer! But if you step back and think about it a second, Zandra broke the law and treated many people in an abominable way. And yet we pray for her redemption, and rejoice at the prospect of Dr. No No suffering for all eternity.


Speaking the Truth

I'm still playing around with ideas about the broader meaning of Babs' journal. I think this episode is definitely focused on the idea of speaking the truth. Not just the concrete stuff (reporting to Karen Betts on the prisoners' diet), but the real emotional truths: Nikki naming Dominic's feelings for Zandra as love, Babs' opinions on all her fellow inmates as recorded in the diary, even Shell obnoxiously pointing out at Zandra's party that Zandra is dying. But Zandra is ok with it, because it's true, as she points out.

However, there is something more complex going on, in terms of Truth. There's a more malleable, less concrete emotional truth which is explored. Babs' diary is out of date--her opinions have changed as her emotional connections with others have grown, and so the truth has changed. Zandra appreciates people speaking to her honestly, rather than avoiding her because they don't know what to say. Zandra's truth is unspeakable to many--the truth is hard to say sometimes. But not when you're dying--when you're dying, it's easy, as Zandra says at the beginning of her letter/speech. When you're dying can say things you wouldn't get away with otherwise. And she then proceeds to say every truth she knows, from Fenner's womanizing to hating Crystal's singing. Perhaps that's the significance on the closeup on Zandra's eye when she dies: even with her glasses knocked off, in death Zandra is able to see everything as it is.


Vulnerability

There's this way the vulnerable characters become strong in this episode. Not just Zandra, who demonstrates a strength and dignity in death that she rarely had in life. But also Babs, who finally stands up to Shell and triumphs, and then Shaz and Denny, who won't allow Shell to abuse Shaz. It's the first time Denny has truly stepped out from under Shell's control. There's also part of me that wonders whether there isn't some parallel between being bullied and dying. That there's a part of your soul that just withers away and dies if you live in fear all the time. Shell is literally starving Babs by not giving her enough food, but there's also this spiritual starvation that goes on when Babs' competence and confidence is taken away. I think Nikki sees this very clearly, which is why she leaves Babs to fight her own fight against Shell.


Other Bits

For the first time I noticed how much Dominc and Zandra's kissing scene mimics Helen and Nikki's first kiss. The same hand-on-chin move, the exact same dialogue right after (Dom says "I shouldn't have done that!") and the same scene of the screw outside the cell wondering at what the hell just happened and what it means. Of course Joe Shaw isn't quite the actor that Simone Lahbib is, but still, the connection is impossible to miss. Although, miss it I did, the first three times I watched this ep. :)

There was another one of those long-take scenes in the exercise yard with the moving camera following different groups of characters. The only other episode which had this (as far as I know) was S1E7, the potting shed episode. In that episode I suggested it had something to do with the unity of the characters, contrasted with the splitting/division which occurred later in the episode. I think the symbolism is similar here. The one long take covers 8 different characters, and everything from bullying (Shell taunting Babs) to prayer (Crystal telling the others about the prayer meeting) to parties (having a celebration for Zandra) to friendship (Nikki supporting Babs) to love (Nikki counseling Dominic about his feelings for Zandra). All of which coexists in this strange environment of HMP Larkhall.

It's late so I just wanted to add one small thought--lovely recap, & a nice continuation of the metaphor around seeing which you worked with earlier. The other episode I can recall w/a very elaborate set-up in the yard (in addition to Di's walk with Josh) is the one in S3 with Pam Jolly, we'll have to see how that plays out against this backdrop. --e

I would like to congratulate Abzug's fine kickoff post and only have a few things to add as I'm going to see Tom Paxton in concert this evening.

I liked the interaction between Nikki and Dominic when they were talking ostensibly about Zandra and at this moment, the prison walls were loosened around nikki. From the way she was talking, she could have been either Dominic's friend or boss and the real mutual respect between them.

I have always been struck by Babs demonstration of courage in facing down the way Shell brought up the matter of her Diary at Zandra's party and how much Shell's conduct, in reverting to type, had isolated her. Nikki gambled right in pretending to be physical backup when Babs went to get the diary back off Shell and that Babs would find the will to overcome Shell. In this context, Abzug's metaphor of starvation for bullying is totally apt and the storyline recalls Rachel Hicks', Shell's last victim.

One of the most affecting scenes was Zandra's simple prayer when alone with Crystal and how things had been shifted around so profoundly when you think of Series 1 Zandra. Abzug makes a very just point that Zandra is forgiven by the audience because she has changed. This she has done in circumstances that on the face of it, don't help, being locked up in prison, losing her baby and having been a drug addict. In contrast, Dr No No has all the material advantages but is an NHS reject and has that hard cynical contemptuous attitude to all prisoners.

One of the shattering contrasts is the way the hilarity and comradeship at Zandra's party changes so markedly when Zandra has that final fatal attack.

They're only a small handful of the moments which make me cry in this episode. I don't think my eyes were dry throughout the whole episode. Even though I have seen it at least 5 times!

This is one of my favourite scenes of the episode. I lve Crystal's insight to what Zandra's death is really going to be like for her - "walking out of prison and into the fresh air". I know Zandra's prayer off by heart and find it so heart-wrenching that Zandra, who we don't think to be religious at all, knows this prayer and is contemplating her death by God's way. It's as if being so close to Crystal has evoked this new idea within Zandra of there actually being a God and what's going to happen to her when she dies.

I cheered for Crystal when she did this. But I still had tears in my eyes because she was doing it, knowing she'd get punished for it, all for Zandra. I mentioned last week about the strength of their friendship, and we see in this ep that that friendship even goes beyond the grave. Crystal is still helping Zandra get her own back on Dr No No. I still believe it's the strongest friendship we've seen on this show.

Again, Nikki doesn't do anything major in this episode but I'm glad it was her who noticed something was up with Dominic. And that it was her who told him to "not beat yourself up about it". The reason I think it was important that Nikki did this is because she knows all the signs, first-hand! She fell in love with a prison officer and she knows how Helen felt, not being able to pursue the relationship. Because Zandra hasn't got much time left, Nikki knows that it's important that she have that "little bit of love at the last minute".

Ahh, the letter. Again, my eyes were not dry! I can't help it, it's just so greatly written and Sharon Duncan-Brewster plays this scene brilliantly. I loved the content of the letter as well: well done Zan, I say! She's right though, she could get away with saying all the things she couldn't if she were still alive. It was a brilliant send-off for Zandra, havng Crystal read the letter at her memorial.

I never thought of it like that before. I always thought that the close-up on her eye was really effective, but I couldn't really see why. It just stuck in my head: it was a memorable last vision of Zandra. But this does make sense, and she proves the truth in it in her letter.

Throughout the series, we've seen Denny grow up and change - especially since she was reunited with her mother. I think this episode, where she protects Shaz, shows that she really has learnt about consequences of her actions. When I was watching this last night, I made a mental connection that I'd never made before: Denny protecting Shaz, and Denny decrutching Zandra. Denny realised, at some point along the line, that decrutching Zandra really sent Zandra into turmoil and pushed her more towards drugs than she initially was. Then I started thinking of the significance of Denny's new love interest appearing in the same episode (or more specifically, later in that episode) that Zandra died. Maybe Denny felt somewhat responsible for Zandra's death? She didn't see it has completely her fault, but maybe Zandra wouldn't have been even more dependant on drugs if Denny hadn't helped Shell bully her like that when she first arrived.

Initially, I thought Nikki walked away because she knew that she had to keep her nose clean for her appeal: for Helen. But she'd already told Babs this, and she still said that she'd be just outside. So then I was a bit doubtful about my first interpretation. I agree that Babs has got that strength inside her (that eventually comes out when Peter is mentioned), and I like the idea that Nikki can see this. We've already saw in this episode how Nikki can "watch" people (Dominic's feeling's for Zan), so it is understandable that she wouldn't miss Babs' inner strength either.

Hey, I never noticed that either! But you're right. Other similarities include the prisoner being the one who initiates it and the officer who pulls away after reciprocating.

There was another one in S1 too. I think it was the ep where Crystal came in. But I could be wrong.


Something else I noticed in this ep, that I haven't really taken note of before, is Nikki in the memorial service scene. I never noticed before just how emotional her face is, and how many tears are in her eyes!!

F: Come on Dockley get a move on.
N: Why don't you go in there and give her a hand, Sir.
F: Shut it Wade.
S: I really appreciate all the support you're giving me, Sir. I ain't let you and Miss Betts down.
F: Cut the speeches, Dockley. There's no Oscars in here.
S: Don't be a stranger now.
N: Place won't be the same without ya.
S: Ah, Babs don't worry I'll be in touch.

This episode starts so matter of factly but there is so much sarcasm in the dialogue between the 3 of them. Both N and S can't help but make digs at other. Haha.
And how come S is moving to the 3s?

I loved Nikki's jibe at Fenner. No matter how good she's trying to be, she doesn't let him get away with shit.

Doesn't she just! Even when Fenner tries to poke his nose in Helen's day to day affairs she puts him right in his place. Check this exchange between them( tho not from this ep)
F: Helen, glad to be back?
H: Ah not entirely but then there's no reason I should have anything with you at all, is there, Jim?
F: It's upto you. I know you didn't come back to larkhall to see me. How was the reunion, BTW?
H: Sorry?
F: You and Wade. I have to admit I didn't realize you were that way inclined, but the signs were there, I suppose.
H: I've had enough of this conversation, Jim.
F: Be careful, Helen. No one wants to make any embarassing discoveries, do they?
H: Oh, don't you worry about me.
F: Fair enough. Only I take it Simon is up to speed on this situation, is he?
H: Look not that it's any of your business but for the record since I've left, yes I've written to her and I've visited Nikki Wade and I've informed the governer. Not doing so would've been unprofessional, wouldn't it, Jim?
F: Absolutely right, Helen. You know me I like to go by the book.

The sheer insolence of the man is unbelievable.
I don't know how Helen manages to keep her cool.

I Love that part, and the slight raise of the eyebrow to go with "to not do would've been unprofessional, wouldn't it, Jim?" ...what a classic!


The expression change in Nikki’s face when she considers helping Babs, but knows she will not be able to save her all the time, and must stand up to her alone, is so well acted by Mandana. In that short 2 second camera view, you see exactly what’s she’s feeling.

I indeed sobbed during the funeral, but I love the light comic ending. I suddenly went for crying, to laughing my pants off at the thought of 'bodybags' begrudgingly singing kumbaya as well, especially after seeing outtakes!

I also think the whole scenes with the diary give us a hint at its later importance, and how dangerous it is. Although you would like to think in prison you can get some privacy, I kind of feel like Barbara’s playing with fire a little even if she would ‘Lie for us.’

Lastly the very quick sentiment near the end where Karen Betts is trying to find out what happened to Shell is delightful. Atkins says ‘ Stay calm Babs, no one will rat you out’ (or something of that nature). I love the clichéd callous treatment of the archetypal Bad Girls and its a nice sentiment to show that, not only does no one grass, but perhaps everyone respects Babs for giving shell a good ‘Smack in the Mouth’!

x

There isn't much that I can add to all the excellent posts but to agree with the interpretation of Nikki giving backup to Babs. She knew that Babs would not have gone to face out Shell without thinking that, if the worst came to the worst, Nikki would come in and get Babs out of the mess. It was an example of real judgement by Nikki that when she could hear Babs in trouble, she carried on walking on downstairs and it was an enormous risk that she was taking. It all worked for the best as Babs did come up with the strength and testifies to her ability to read Babs.

What is strange that, after that very hesitant start in the preceding episode in being caring, she reverts to type. It is certainly the case that Shell feels far more comfortable beiong hard, bitter and jealous of Babs. It's as if without trying to be hard, Babs gets respect and for all Shell's top dog act, she feels that she isn't - as when she walks away from the party. There is the opportunity for enlightenment and sensitivity but recoils from it because she is too damaged to.

It all testifies to Shell being both victim and victimiser.

Just a little thing about this ep, re the Babes Behind Bars scam:

When Shell is doing her "Olga", everyone's listening. No secrecy. But in the next ep, Yvonne gets mad at Denny for telling Shaz about the scam. And the Julies mention that "the whole wing's gonna know"

. So why was it ok for everyone to gather round and listen to Shell on the phone. And Denny offering Zandra in on it. And then, at Zandra's party, everyone's laughing about the "sheep" call.

Yeah, this plotline does require a bit of suspension of disbelief, that's for sure. But wasn't it only the "gang" who was around Shell when she took that call? Not any of the extras, right? The same was true at the party. In contrast, Shaz is a newcomer, so in Yvonne's mind, she shouldn't know about the scam, because Yvonne doesn't know if she's trustworthy.

Can I just say, I love that Zandra died laughing.

In the call with Shell doing "Olga", there were 5 extras in the background, clearly listening to the call and laughing about it. Denny even half turns to one of them while discussing it. So a bit of a plot oversight there. Oops! There's also the odd sequence of Shaz's arrival. Di tells Shaz that Crystal "just got off the block" because she "lost her temper", which would have to be the scene when she spit on Dr No No (GO Crystal!!). But that happens after Shaz arrives not before. Bit of a continuity misstep there.

Oh well, not much to complain about, there's so much to love about this episode!

Yes, I noticed this too. Also, she's too choked up to sing "Kumbaya". I don't know if that was the actress' choice, the director's or the writer's, but it was just so fitting for Nikki. The only other character who gets so choked up, and clearly for a very different reason, is Dominic, who can only manage to sing one phrase before he stops.

I completely agree that Crystal and Zandra's friendship was the best we've seen on the show. I loved Crystal from the outset, not that I'm very religious or agree with her views, but because she wasn't intimidated by anyone and spoke her mind. Unlike many people who claim to be christian, Crystal wholeheartedly demonstrated the essence of her christian faith. Sacrificing her relationship with Josh, sacrificing her freedom, sacrificing her prison rap sheet, making it even harder for her to integrate back in society, all to make Zandra's final days more bearable. It's the epitomy of "what would Jesus do?"

OTOH, I couldn't stand Zandra most of the first season. I started to warm up to her when she read letters for Denny. I even sided with Robin in his desire to raise the kid himself, which ironically, he will get his wish. But really, I never thought of him as such a bad guy. I just saw them as two kids who got in over their heads, first with the smack, and then her getting pregnant.

Anyway, by the time Zandra died, I absolutely loved her just like I did Crystal. I started getting weepy during that prayer scene in the bunk and fell apart from there.

and

In addition to Zandra, Denny could also have been still feeling guilty about her contribution to Rachel's death. She knows the worst of where Shell's bullying can lead and she doesn't want to be a party to that ever again.

Speaking of Shell, when she asks Shaz what she was in for, she mentions "nicking gobstoppers". I know what nicking means (stealing) but what's "gobstoppers"?

This is definitely true about Crystal, although it wasn't always. I mean, didn't you think in S1 she was very judgmental, calling all the women sinners, being at least a little anti-gay etc? But just as Zandra changed since S1, so did Crystal, to become, as you put it, a true Christian.

Aren't they a large, hard, round sucking candy? So it's a reference to Shaz's youth, that she couldn't have done anything more serious than stealing candy.

Yes, I did but she made me laugh so many times in S1. She got her judgements from her interpretation of the Bible but her strict following of that couldn't be applied to her real life, especially in her situation. Even when she was on the outside, she didn't follow the Bible (thou shalt not steal) but she justified it in her head (they expect people to steal from them). This is something she constantly did in prison as well. The ironies were comical to me. Maybe I have a strange sense of humor ;) As the show progressed, and Crystal spent more time in prison, she was forced to adapt, bending the strict rules about life to suit the situation, like smuggling in drugs for Zandra.

I admired her strength of character, it served her well as a coping mechanism. At least for a time. I also found it interesting that Shed chose Crystal's character to be the one to play the "saint". She was pretty much a hypocrite as a christian, like many bible thumpers are, but when it came down to it she laid it on the line for Zandra and for once embodied a true christian.

Okay, thanks! Didn't know about the candy ;)

Hiya, just thought I'd mention you might want to add that one to the Bloopers thread, does seem like a legit continuity error! :) --e

If I recall properly (I'm not getting my DVD's out now), but wasn't Crystall down the block twice in the space of 2 consecutive episodes. First for the cannibus stash, and then for assulting Dr No No??

Yup, you're remembering right. She's missing the first half of S2E9 (for the pot incident) and then she's missing for the entirety of S2E10 because of the Dr No No assault. Actually, the timing for S2E10 is really wonky, now that I think about it, because Julie J has time to send her wanker a visiting order and have him come to visit, and yet Crystal is in solitary that whole time (could she have gotten more than a week?) and Renee Williams is only on the wing maybe two days. I guess we could assume the episode took place over a week or so, but then the Julie J stuff really doesn't fit.

I think your right about the wonkiness of these eps. But I will watch these episodes again this weekend.

Sorry to drag this thread back up, but I really want to comment on The Leaving since it’s still very much on my mind. These are all just random thoughts/comments off of everyone else’s here.

Abzug – I love your analysis of the death/redemption theme in Larkhall in this storyline. Very appropriate and spot on, and nicely fleshed out in your essay on the Annex. Crystal and Denny both have major moments of redemption – Crystal with NoNo and Denny with Shell – even as Zan is the one most obviously redeemed thru her death.

Also, the idea of “speaking truths” in this epi: one of Zandra’s biggest complaints at this point isn’t just that she’s dying, it’s that no one will say it. And even tho it’s crazy Shell who mentions it off-handedly at the beginning of the party – and in a rather crude and thoughtless way – it’s enough to make Zan grateful that at least someone acknowledges it and says the words out loud. The point being, it’s more important to Zandra that someone SAYS it - she doesn’t care who or how.

And “speaking the truth” indeed, is further echoed in the idea of Barbara’s journal, not just in recording their daily diets, but in the larger sense – Babs is keeping a record of her time in prison so that when she gets out, “she can tell everyone what really goes on in there” (“The Set Up”). That’s a damn powerful idea. So much of the stuff that goes on in prisons is, literally, behind closed doors, that the outside world has little idea of what really goes on. By diligently recording the realities inside, Barbara plans to pull back the veil (or the bars) of prison life. Speaking truths, indeed.

Richard - I fully agree with your comments about why Nikki made Babs stand up to Shell on her own. Nikki’s appeal was the less important reason, IMO. In a way, the ‘standing up to a bully’ is just a prison rite of passage, kinda like making one’s bones – something Barbara HAS to do. Nikki’s right – at some point, Shell would’ve gotten Babs on her own if she didn’t stand up to her in this epi.

I’ll go a bit further and say Babs is redeemed by this, in a way. Not only by owning up to the things she wrote about the other women (and apologizing), but by standing up to Shell as well. It not only affirms her own strength by taking Shell on, she’s redeemed in a broader sense by embracing the “good” inmates and physically denouncing/rejecting Shell’s “evil.” I wouldn’t say she’s redeemed in quite the same way as Crystal and Denny, but it certainly echoes the whole theme of “standing up” here.

Parallels of Dom & Zan w/Nikki & Helen. When Nikki talks to Dom in the yard about Zandra, not only is she uniquely qualified to speak about an officer/con relationship, Dominick knows this, since he’s aware Helen’s written her (he asks Nikki about it in “Mistaken Identity” after recognizing Helen’s handwriting). So Dominick can appreciate Nikki’s comments on 2 levels – her naming his feelings for Zan (and the importance of remaining her PO) as well as Nikki’s own experience in blurring the lines between screw and con.

Not only does the Dom/Zandra kiss/dialogue parallel Nikki and Helen’s, so does Dominick’s arrival at work that morning, when he looks up at Zan’s window and they wave at each other.

Lisa289 – I’ve also been thinking about Shaz’s arrival in the same epi as Zandra’s death, particularly given Denny’s history with Zandra (decrutching), tho I’m not sure Denny feels responsible per se for Zan’s death. I think some of Denny being drawn to Shaz is simply down to the fact that she’s so young – teens usually stick together in places like that. And when Shaz shows up right after Zan’s memorial service (and Shell starts her usual BS), Denny’s compelled to stand up and do the right thing. I agree that a whole series of events, from the start of the show, have culminated in Denny being able to do this, including the stuff that happened with Jessie.

Also, about your comments about the Babes Behind Bars epi and the Olga the Screw scene – YES! I’m so glad someone else caught that. Shell and Denny have already let half the wing know about the phones (tho I think it's fine that Nikki, Babs, et al know about it from Zandra’s party – they all know each other and none of them are grasses).

Is that right, “grasses?” Or would it be “grassers?” Sigh. Back to the Dumb Americans thread.


Also, the “baaing” into the phone, the ensuing laughter, and Zan’s sudden death made me wanna play Cake’s “Sheep go to Heaven.” Over and over again.

Sorry this is so long. Err... I did say this epi’s still been on my mind, yeah?

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed your comments, they were very even-handed & fair--and (speaking for myself, anyway), please don't apologize when you bring up old threads. I mean that's sort of the point of some of these threads, that they go on & find new life because people keep returning to the show for more insights or questions. So I always wanna kind of encourage people to dig up old threads & say go for it! Just my 2¢. Anyway thanks for putting your thoughts together so nicely.

ekny - Good to know about the dredging up of old threads. I’m late to the whole Bad Girls phenom and will undoubtedly be tempted to revisit old epis/themes that have already been discussed here.

As far as my comments being “even-handed & fair,” thanks. I realize that even tho I just got here, I’m already down the block! Now that probably would’ve happened eventually, but I thought I’d last longer than a day at least. So my even-handedness/fairness is really just a clever ploy to get me off the block! ;)

Oi, well, there's lots of riffraff to keep you company if you're down the block, eh. :D As for old threads--again, I think it's great if people take the time to read through them, which is what I did when I first got here; it gave me a feel for the place & the general tone (which is what decided me to join up, actually), as well as letting me know what had been explored & what hadn't. By now there's a huge amount of stuff, but I was so obsessed even then (I read other boards too, of course) that didn't bother me a bit: I was more like, oooh, I get to read 5 books' worth of material--what fun! :eek

We're all a little unwell here in our own special ways. Ok, ok. I speak for myself.

As to your comments, I esp agree w/your take on N's motivation for not-helping Babs help herself, and the parallels in some of the lines/pov between H&N & Dom & Zandra. To my way of thinking all of that is quite deliberate on the part of the scriptwriters, rather like peering through a big piece of glass on a front door, with those little, smaller frosted pieces around the side. Josh & Crystal, however pedestrian, are sort of another piece, in some ways. They've about half of the structural components of H&N, but nowhere near enough of that critical something to push them over the edge into Interesting, much less galvanizing. Similarly, I view Dom & Zan as accent notes, grace notes & variations around the main story (H&N). --e

"I'm not crazy I'm just a little unwell..."

Totally agree the Dom/Zan parallel with H/N is deliberate. And I really like your “peering thru the glass” analogy.

As far as Crystal and Josh, you’re probably right about that as well. I’m SO not a Crystal fan, so I can’t really make a case either way. Besides, I have to be even-handed and fair if I wanna get off the block!

Yeah, well Crystal's a total self-righteous prig until Zandra's need overwhelms her & she becomes more or less human. So there is that. ;)

Who banged you up, anyway? How'd you get down the block on your first time in, you some kinda troublemaker? Hee.

Hey metasin girl, I just wanted to second ekny and say you should always feel free to bump up old threads. There are so many newish folks on the board since Logo started airing the show that most people haven't seen or participated in a lot of the things we've discussed.

Also, most weeks we bump the episode threads for the Logo airing, but I guess we didn't do that the past two weeks.

Off to find and bump the S2E10 thread....

Abzug - thx for bumping the 2.10 epi thread. It's strange, cuz I really disliked this epi, but when I came and read the thread tonite, I was compelled to leave a long, run-on, redundant comment! Funny how that happens, huh??

Damn good question! I’m still trying to figure out why I’m banged up. (looks around quickly) I think someone may have...um, sent my file here. Ya know, by mistake...


But me? A troublemaker?? That’s just an ugly rumor! :)

Hi metasin girl,

When I was explaining Denny's "responsibility" to Zandra's death, I didn't mean that she felt directly responsible. Thanks for your comments, and I completely agree with you: it's what I was trying to explain earlier on. Denny was involved in Zandra's initial ill-treatment in prison, and the decrutching led Zandra down a bad road. I think Zandra would have gone down this road anyway, but it's like the decrutching pushed her down this road and made her more dependant on drugs and blocking out prison life as far as she could. So Denny now, in hindsight, sees this and doesn't want to be involved in something like again. This is why she protects Shaz from Shell.

Hi metasin girl, I just want to echo what everyone has rightly said. The beauty of BG is that it is both something that you actively engage with yourself and also with other posters in an entirely supportive fashion and the richness of the material means that there aren't 'received truths' that explain everything. Half the pleasure is in engaging with different points of view and running with them. Feel free to chip in where you see fit.

Lisa289 – Yes, I agree there’s a definite connection bet Denny’s wanting to protect Shaz (even tho she doesn’t know her) and the decrutching scene. And the fact that it happens just as Shell and Denny come back from Zan’s memorial is significant. Yes, I was looking more broadly at the issue, whether Denny actually felt responsible or guilty about Zandra’s death (which I don’t think she does. At least I hope she doesn’t!)


Richard – I fully agree about the richness of this show, esp the first 3 seasons. The fact that Shed doesn’t spell everything out is definitely part of the pleasure of this show! Of course, nuance and subtlety isn’t exactly a new concept for most gays/lesbians, so it’s nice to be able to discuss/interpret/deconstruct certain themes that resonate for many of us anyway.

More thoughts on Zandra’s death:

The actual scene of her death was SO well done, IMO. The humor and laughter with the “baa’ing” punter on the phone contrasted with her seizure and death was just so damn powerful, at least to me. I thought the phone call was one of the funniest scenes ever in BG, and, of course, Zan’s death was one of the saddest ever. This extreme contrast evoked so much emotion, that I was absolutely stunned the first time I saw it.

Then I struggled to make some sense of it, or at least, find a positive aspect to her death. What I decided was, that she went out in the best possible way, given the circumstances: she knew she was dying, she died while with her “family” (a surrogate one, but the only one she had), and she died while laughing. And after making peace with her fear of an angry God. It was also a quick (and presumably painless) death. So really – if she had to die, it couldn’t be any better than that.

The other thing that struck me is that in a way, she died at her most pure, and while she was at her best (I know that sounds rather twisted, but bear with me here).

She’d grown up in different foster homes and started using heroin at 15. She’s been in and out of prison, at least one other time that we know of. “The Leaving” is basically the first time since the show started that she’s not either strung out, scheming for drugs, or despairing over her baby (or Robin). True, she’s been sick with headaches and all, but in a way, she’s at her peak in this episode. She’s the best we’ve ever seen her, with a sense of self, quiet strength and dignity (i.e., standing up to Shell). And she’s starting to fall in love (or at least explore that possibility) with Dominick. So I think that for Zandra, she’s in a kind of “state of grace” when she goes. Not in a strict religious sense of course, but I’d argue there’s a strong spiritual element to dying in that state of “purity” (yes, I’m using that term loosely and relatively, in the context of her life and the show).

While I’d like to think that if she lived, her character would’ve done her time, left Larkhall, and lived happily ever after with Dominick. But the chances of that happening were pretty slim, for numerous reasons. So, I’ve decided that she died at the best possible time and in the best emotional/spiritual state she’d ever achieved. Course I could just be deluding myself, but it makes me feel better to think that!

I love this image, and I agree with everything in your post. I think that's why this episode is so effective, and Zandra's death so powerful, because we feel the full impact of what might have been, seeing Zandra at her "best" as you put it.

Your post makes absolute sense to me, metasin girl, and certainly about the quickness of her death ,the company around her and her own circumstances as you describe so accurately. I found Zandra's little prayer in an earlier scene when she was sharing a bunk with Crystal incredibly simple and moving and 'belongs' to that episode. Keep the thoughts coming.

It's pretty much impossible to have someone being attacked in a shower without a nod to Hitchcock... so why it took me so damn long to flash on this other, obvious echo I've no idea. Perhaps because it's still just as disturbing 45 years later. In the case of Zandra, I think it was also that the glasses threw me off; the position of the head's different, and of course the shot from Psycho pulls back from the eye to the reveal of Marian's face; in the case of Zandra it's a move in to an extreme close-up. (We could argue Shed substituted Z's cigarette falling in slo-mo as substitute for the drain, but as we're not working the identical subject matter or metaphors (outside of Death, that is), it's not important in terms of the citation.)

Basically, I don't think you can't have this sort of shot without it being a nod in Hitchcock's direction.

Yes. It's just such a classic british shot. <G> One would have to assume that anyone who goes through british film school is only too aware of Hitchcock's storyboarding methods and master shots. It also brings to my mind, mingling the images, the great shot in one of his other classics (and one of my personal favorites) "Strangers on a Train" when the character of Miriam is strangled in the amusement park and we see the crime committed as reflected in her glasses that have fallen to the ground.

And assuming that the camera people or director here are emulating Hitch, I've mentioned to you before that I get a strong feeling that they are also paying homage to the justly famous, much admired, and Oscar winning cinematography of Jack Cardiff in the classic brit film "Black Narcissus." Every time I see the season one shots in Helen's office I am reminded of the lighting and color contrast of that film (set in the mostly female world of an isolated nunnery which feels, at times, like a prison.) So, for me, it almost goes without saying that the artistic vision of the piece is intelligently informed by "quoting" other source material.

Hey Jeanna, thanks for your thoughts! :) Agreed, there's a level of information camerapeople in particular have in their heads that informs everything they do; in this case it's a pretty deliberate shot, so I assume to some extent the quote may have been self-aware. Gosh, I saw Strangers on a Train a long time ago; I don't remember the glasses shot (too long ago, then, obviously), but I do remember it had a stand-out creepiness for early Hitch. (Yes... it's coming back to me; some sort of PBS marathon or other!)

As for "almost" going without mentioning it. Em. Er. Yes, well. (And besides; no one mentioned it here before so....)

I actually thought of that glasses shot as well, when ekny first posted the eye stuff above. But then I sort of dismissed it (perhaps prematurely!) because what's so distinctive about that shot is that
1. The glasses are no longer being worn--they've fallen to the ground
2. The entire shot comes from what's reflected in the glasses lens

In the case of Zandra's death, she's still wearing the glasses, and they don't become the lens through which we view the scene's action.

On the other hand, if I made the association, and so did Jeanna, then maybe it is there, just in a less literal way.

You know one major reason why I thought it? (other than it being another classic Hitchcock shot)... They were also hideous glasses. LOL