I know I've been late lately, but I actually had a free evening :o and managed to watch this week's BG ep the same night it was broadcast on ITV3. It's been WEEKS since that's happened! So I figured I'd do the honors and kick things off this week. First, let me say that this episode might contain my all-time favorite S3 line. Yvonne's in line for food, and concerned about the missing knife, and she says "Let's hope someone's taken it for a spot of whittling." Hilarious. I also absolutely love the sequence of scenes between Yvonne and Nikki regarding their respective sex lives (or lack thereof). Two great actresses, two mature characters, and just a great dynamic. The whole "You haven't got the tackle"/"Wanna bet?" exchange is so delicious. :wub:

OK, on to business. :devil

Sooooo, this episode seems to me to revolve around the ways loving relationships can trap us or set us free. It opens with the little exchange between Denny and Josh about his "institutionalization" which is (at first glance) a very cute, throwaway scene. Except that it establishes the theme of a sort of self-imprisonment, or emotional imprisonment--the ways our relationships and psychologies and attachments to peoples or behaviors or places keep us stuck and trapped. Then, shortly thereafter, we learn that Dominic has found true love in Greece and won't be returning to Larkhall. SO, Josh is back at Larkhall because he has to support Crystal. Dominic has escaped because he's met the person of his dreams. In both cases, it's a loving relationship which can either free a person, or keep them locked up forever.

Julie S experiences this relationship trauma first hand. She wants to leave Larkhall to see David's play, and spend his 16th birthday with him. But Julie J desperately wants her to stay. Begs her in fact. Julie S is rightly appalled at this--how could her best friend want her to stay in prison when she has the chance to get out? She says to Julie J: "I can't [stay] nd you shouldn't be asking me to neither." To which Julie J replies simply "I need you." (Well, she says some more after that, but it's a bit besides the point.) Once Julie S is out, she stumbles on the chance for heterosexual love, for a reunion with her first boyfriend. In fact, at the end of the episode, when Julie S has a premonition that Julie J needs her to be saved, and Julie S is racing back to Larkhall, Trevor tries to convince her not to go. He tells her "Prison's behind you. You've gotta let it go!" He tells her he wants to get back together, and she's not interested--she's too consumed with her loyalty for Julie J. Because poor Julie J is unable to cope on her own. She's completely lost, and on the verge of attempting to put an end to it rather than continue isolated. In a weird way we (the audience) are now sympathizing with someone who has essentially manipulated her best friend into staying in prison.

Julie J isn't the only one using all her manipulative might to keep a loved one tied to her. Di's mother engages in similar behavior, as we see in the horrible scene with Di mooning over Dominic in her bedroom, and then running downstairs to beat her mother. Di can't free herself, she's been emotionally trapped by her mother. But she can't tolerate the situation either, and so her only choice (in her mind) is violence.

I think the whole business with the screws on strike and the prisoners running the wing plays in very nicely as well. (Although someone tell me why they didn't send officers over from another wing?) Who is it who suggests they let the prisoners out? Helen. Why does she do it? Because she knows she can count on Nikki to keep things under control. In a way, Helen's suggestion is a reflection of her relationship with Nikki, and her desire to have Nikki be as free as possible. The polar opposite of the two Julies....

It's not just Nikki who takes charge in this episode, though. Yvonne as well comes to the fore as an enforcer. In this way, it's the prisoners themselves who are responsible for their fellow cons being locked up or being free. Early in the episode Yvonne yells at Dockley through the cell wall, blaming her for the fact that they're all stuck in their cells. Later, Shell shouts out to the cavorting prisoners that it's her they have to thank for the fact that they're free to run around the wing. So in this symbolic way Shell has the key to keep the prisoners trapped, and to let them out.

When the prisoners all take care of their own, with Yvonne keeping an eye on things, restricting the worse behavior, they do get to experience a modicum of freedom. But they also become the enforcers--Yvonne plays screw more effectively than the screws, complains Denny. There are different ways people can hold eachother prisoner. The cell search by Babs, Nikki, Denny et al is unlike the violent cell search after the Babes Behind Bars get caught, but it's also invasive.

There's another bit which seems to me to fit in, although I haven't completely figured out how. It's the whole Yvonne-needs-sex storyline. I got the feeling, watching it, that prison was pretty tolerable for Yvonne, except for the fact that she's celibate, that she doesn't have sex. The fact that she contemplates what it would be like to be in a relationship with a fellow prisoner gives us a sense of how desperate she is. And also how the lack of an intimate relationship can be a prison itself, and a far more oppressive one than G-Wing.

Odds and Sods

I love the exchange between Helen and Karen about Shell's obsession with Karen. What I find so intriguing about it is that it doesn't occur to Karen that Shell could have passionate jealous feelings about her. She has the hetero perspective that Shell's obsession must be with Jim. It takes the (lesbian) Helen to point out that Shell is obsessed with Karen, not Jim. She doesn't miss the importance of relationships between women the way Karen does.

I started wondering if the significance of Macbeth might actually relate to Helen, not Julie J. I mean, I know there's the whole "Is that a dagger I see before me" scene, which is definitely echoing Julie J's desperation with the knife. But Macbeth is about a power-hungry man who oversteps. He wants to be king, and he does anything and everything to become king, destroying himself in the process. Could this not be foreshadowing what Helen destroys in her effort to become (and stay) Governing Gov? I don't mean to sound hard on Helen--I actually find her S3 struggles to be quite sympathetic and compelling. But I do think she has a touch of power-hunger, and I saw a premonition of it here.

What's the significance of the choice of "She'll be Comin' Round the Mountain"? They could have chosen anything. It seems to me that the choice of this particular song must be significant. Does anyone know the history or meaning of it? I'm sure the words are out there somewhere, although they were singing modified lyrics, that's for sure!

It appears ITV cut the one H/N scene tonight in the UK rebroadcast. I don't have more data at the moment, perhaps someone else can verify/catch us up on this idiotic move.

i noticed in the first scene, the camera scans over the parking lot, showing karen's green sporty car parked right beside helen's more practical red sedan. what do you think is the significance of that? or have they shown that more than once.

there also might have been another way love played a part in dominic not returning. he obviously had feelings for helen which he found out in no uncertain terms she didn't reciprocate and may not have wanted to come back to face that. and then there was creepy di's unwanted attention.

i see shell's obsession with karen more line with the fear of karen betraying her trust about her past abuse to fenner, rather than being in love with her.

abzug, perhaps you could expand on your statement that you see perhaps a premonition of helen's being power hungry.

and, off topic, but i thought i'd just throw it in. i think nikki gets softer (and cuter!) as the series progresses, while helen doesn't exactly get harder, but i notice she seems to wear less makeup. i'm not sure if that was deliberate on the part of the producers, or just the way the actors had more of a say in how they looked?

oh, and one more thing. the song she'll be coming round the mountain. i remember singing that song when we went on sunday school outings. actually, the same tune was used to sing "you cannae shove your granny off the bus" if anyone else remembers that song. it may just be a song the girls all remember from outings as kids.

In the original broadcast on ITV back many years ago, the scene between Helen and Nikki where Helen asks Nikki to keep everyone under control was not included. It was cut at the last minute, so it randomly wound up being broadcast in New Zealand, but not in the UK. And then it was included on the dvd. So I'm assuming that ITV3 took the original ITV version of the ep, which would have excluded this scene.

Oh, totally. Shell was definitely not in love with Karen. If anything, her feelings for Karen were more of the mother-daughter sort (Karen being the mother, Shell being the daughter). I was only trying to draw attention to the fact that Karen assumed Shell's relationship with Fenner was the primary motivation for the attack, while Helen assumed Shell's relationship with Karen was the primary motivation for the attack. I think we, the audience, are perhaps meant to assume it's a combination.

Well, I'm kind of jumping both ahead and backwards when I say that. First, there's a few mentions in S1 of Helen's ambition. Sean teases her that in a few weeks she'll be running the place, and she laughs as if she sort of hopes that will be true. Then, later in S3, when she gets promoted, there's a number of scenes where she looks pretty darn pleased with herself (when she's pinning the new nametag on her sweater in particular). She also becomes a little more resistant to outside opinions and a little less humble when she gets the promotion--a bit more like the way she was in the first half of S1. And because of this, she pushes Nikki away when Nikki is trying to get some help for Femi. Which leads to the riots, and which leads to Helen breaking up with Nikki because she feels so betrayed, so undermined by her lover/partner/girlfriend whatever word you want to use. So, in a way, Helen puts Nikki on the chopping block (temporarily) in order to preserve her power and authority running the prison. So it's maybe a bit Macbeth-y, in that she destroys her relationship with the person she loves to maintain her power.

Well, Nikki and Yvonne were talking about sex. So I took it to fall in line with that. The modified lyrics almost emphasize it. Like, "She'll be wearing pink pajamas when she comes."

Nikki even says, "Come again?" when she can't hear Yvonne.

Thanks for starting this discussion off, Abzug :) Just thought I'd start by agreeing with your views on this quote. I love it, and I think it's mostly to do with the way Linda delivers it. It's brilliant. Anyway...

Totally agree with you here. The conversations between these two may be my favourites of theirs throughout the whole series, and definitely my fave little story in this ep :)


I like the theme you’ve run with here, and I was actually thinking of something along those lines myself. So I’m glad you started it off this week, because I don’t think I would have put it all down into words as well as you have.

I can see both Julies’ points of view here. On the one hand, Julie S is relishing in the chance of getting out, and who would blame her? Then, Julie J is feeling so insecure about being left alone in Larkhall that she practically begs Julie S to stay. I think Julie S was right to go, even if she did have her own worries about leaving Julie J behind. When I first saw this, I thought Julie J may have been overreacting a bit and she’d be ok on her own: like Monica said, she still had lots of friends on G-Wing. But then the whole business with the knife actually shows us how insecure she really is and how dependent upon Julie S she has become throughout her life.

My thoughts exactly!! Although I loved this episode, and the lack of screws on the scene, it did strike me as rather odd that they didn’t bring other officers over.

I like this interpretation. I had high respect for Helen for showing this trust in the prisoners, and the scene between her and Nikki (which they definitely did cut out) shows that she was counting on Nikki to keep an eye on things. Last night, I totally forgot that that scene was in this episode, but it did feel like there was something missing. But I just couldn’t put my finger on it. So thanks ekny for pointing that out J

I liked how Yvonne took on this role actually. She’s smart enough to realise that they had a sweet set-up and knew what they could do to get their temporary freedom taken away. And, going back to how Helen was counting on Nikki to take some sort of control, Yvonne also knew she could count on Nikki for support in keeping things in order. When Yvonne realises she’s having no luck finding the knife on her own, the first person she confides in about it is Nikki.

She was right though, wasn’t she? Like Yvonne points out, all that fuss was because Shell was put back on the wing. So, although it’s thanks to Shell that the prisoners have this “freedom”, she’s the only one not allowed to enjoy it. Which reminds me of another great quote in this episode, this one from Nikki: “I’ve got nothing against Dockley for opening Fenner up like a handbag. Long overdue if you ask me.” What I also like about this is Yvonne’s reply, assuring Nikki that she’s no fan of Fenner’s either, which let’s Nikki know she’s on her side.

I like how you put this, and I just wanted to comment on it a little. I love this exchange too, but it’s never occurred to me that it took a lesbian (Helen) to realise whom Shell’s really “obsessed” with. I mean; it’s obvious that it’s Helen who points it out, but I never linked it to her having that new, higher understanding of women. But it is true that the thought of Shell being obsessed with her doesn’t really cross Karen’s mind, but she can see it clearly as soon as it’s pointed out.

There's been a lot of brilliant points made in this post and I thought I'd focus in on a couple of themes from one of my favourite episodes in Series 3.

This episode highlights the interrelationships between the prisoners if they had their freedom (allowing for the fact that they would go their separate ways if they had it. The scene where denny and Shaz are confronted about the knife show that Yvonne, Nikki, Babs and the Julies have their
natural positions within the collective order run by these women. I have always been struck by the way that only Nikki thought to question Josh's presence on the wing. This is how she would be on the outside. Where any problems came up, she and Yvonne were pretty dominant, Nikki as much as Yvonne in her quieter, more reflective way in figuring out in talking to Babs how far to push the search for the knife. Once again, the motif of 'head prefect' is repeated in her interaction with Helen which in reality she does like despite her perception of the risks that it brings.

One of my favourite moments is where Stubberfield wants Helen and Karen to pull him out of the mire and both of them cheekily push off and leave him with the responsibility, being a simultaneous reaction of both women to a regime of him being put upon by Stubberfield. Another is the banter between Yvonne and Nikki earlier on and later in Yvonne's cell.

In retrospect, the verbal violence of Julie J's response to Julie J's decision to see her son David's play is a brief foretaste of the series 7 storyline of the full bipolar condition coming out into the open and her calling herself 'Sonia' has a real edgy ring about it.( There is a strange feel about the way that Julie J explains her reaction to Julie S getting out in terms of her saying what she is expected to say). The whole thing was realistically conceived.

One of the more tender moments is where Shaz displays an unsuspected line in sensitivity in playing Scarborough Fair on the guitar which might be out of character but I love it.

This is a really interesting way of viewing this episode. I might suggest there's another layer of complexity. In this episode we see the interrelationships between the prisoners as they would freely establish them when they are confined within a closed environment with limited resources available to them. So, Big Brother is always there, even in this episode--the reason Yvonne comes down hard on Denny and Shaz is because she doesn't want them causing mischief and ending the "good thing" they've got going on the wing. In a way, it winds up being a metaphor for the fact that all human beings are confined and restricted by outside pressures/forces, even when they feel relatively free.

I love that they established the psychological vulnerability of this character so early on, and then kept it consistent throughout all the seasons. It really highlights how much Julie J relied on Julie S for her stability during her time in Larkhall. She's a stronger person because of the relationship.

I love this too. And for whatever reason it didn't strike me as out of character. I just felt like we were perhaps seeing the tender vulnerable side of Shaz, the one that she probably shares with Denny but not with anyone else. I think it also worked really well because they showed us Shell listening, and of course Shell is the one who likes to captivate an audience with her singing, so her envy at the other women had to cut deep in this moment.

Hi Abzug. Your formulation about the limited freedom the prisoners gets it exactly right and also illuminates the prison occupation led by Yvonne in the Series 5 occupation scene where Christopher Biggins expresses these limited resources very precisely. I love the idea of it as a metaphor for the wider society, an idea which in a more distantly related way had always lurked at the back of the viewer's imagination of 'normal Larkhall life.'

One curiosity about the Scarborough Fair song that I can't leave alone is that it comes from a folksong tradition where you have a man or woman singing a folk ballad where the singer may be of a different sex from the narrative and recounting the song rather than identifying with the song. Dylan did it in 'North Country Blues' and Judy Collins did the same from the reverse direction. This rendition sort of neatly sidesteps this tradition so that Shaz is, as it were, singing the song to a same sex lover without drawing attention to the matter. This might be one of Shed's neat understated bits of writing.This may be an off the wall idea but I'd have kicked myself for it if I hadn't posted this while I had the chance.

Wow, nice one Richard, I hadn't thought of that! It's funny, I was being too practical in theorizing about the choice of that song, because I know it happens to be one of the easiest songs to play on the guitar, without actually sounding easy or simple. So I assumed they picked that one b/c Shaz's guitar skills were only rudimentary. But of course, your interpretation is FAR better.

I also thought Julie J's behavour in this episode highlighted what was to come at the end of series7. I think it's great that the writers highlighted this, because it means they didn't completely change her character later on.

Oh, and would just like to say that I loved Shaz's rendition of Scarborough Fair. I think she actually has a great singing voice, which is really surprising of her character.

I have been thinking about the Nikki/Yvonne interaction in this episode. It’s really the first time we’ve seen Nikki joking about sex (dare I say flirting?) with anyone other than Helen.

I’m a pretty literal person (no depth at all really), but for some reason I have been looking for a deeper meaning for this Nikki/Yvonne thing (the fact that it has to do with Nikki and sex I’m sure has nothing to do with it!).

Up until this point in time, we have never seen Nikki show any interest in anyone, other than Helen, of course, but no other inmates. For the first few episodes of the show, she was still with Trish. Then, shortly after that, she became interested in Helen and that was the “focus of her attention” as Helen put it.

At this point in time, she and Helen have pretty much agreed to keep things on a professional level for their own sanity. But, I don’t think it’s all that easy for Nikki to put the genie back in the bottle, so to speak. The night with Helen must have been pretty intense, and I don’t think it would be easy to just cut off any sexual feelings she has. But I also think for her own sanity, she wouldn’t be able to indulge in as many fantasies about herself and Helen, so maybe a few about Yvonne?

This idea of aj57 is an interesting one as you don't normally see Nikki joke about sex. I'd be interested in seeing other points of view as Nikki would conclude that Yvonne is obviously heterosexual although it could once be said the same about Helen who once was living with her boyfriend.

This has provoked an allied train of thought where Nikki had straight out asked Yvonne if it was she who had been concealing the missing knife all along, an interesting train of thought where Nikki considers the least likely person who has taken the knife, the one making more noise about getting the knife back than anyone else being a cover for really having it all along. Nikki's consideration that Yvonne had been having a tough time and that she could help was meant in a platonic sense which Yvonne laughed at as she was 'desperate for a shag.'

I'd speculate that Nikki is playing with Yvonne a bit, exercising her flirting muscles, so to speak, but I don't think she's actually attracted to or interested in Yvonne. It's more like one of those it's-fun-to-flirt-with-your-friend situations, where you know the friend isn't going to take it seriously, and you don't mean it seriously. The thing that's interesting about it is that at least one of the lines she uses with Yvonne is remarkably similar to the one she uses with Helen in S1 in the library: "You should try it sometime--don't know what you're missing." But to Helen it had a distinctly seductive feel, while to Yvonne (it seems to me) it had a more joking, provoking feel.

actually, abzug, i have to admit your reading of the Nikki/Yvonne interactions makes more sense than mine. i do think that after what she had been through recently with Helen, maybe Nikki is more sympathetic to Yvonne's plight, and that may have been the source of her willingness to take more of an interest in helping Yvonne out. i can't help but feel that Nikki must be dealing with some frustration of her own, which she can no longer convey to Helen.

I've been thinking that we perhaps haven't explored Scarborough Fair sufficiently. The song is beautiful, but it's also quite provocative, and rather hostile when you stop to think about it. The singer is a lover who has been betrayed, and describes all these things his/her lover must do to win him/her back. All of which are completely impossible tasks:

Are you goin' to scarborough fair? Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme.
Remember me to one who lives there. She once was a true love of mine.

Tell her to make me a cambric shirt. Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme.
Without no seams nor needlework. Then she'll be a true love of mine.

Tell her to find me an acre of land. Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme.
Between the salt water and the sea sand. Then she'll be a true love of mine.

Tell her to reap it in a sickle of leather. Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme.
And to gather it all in a bunch of heather. Then she'll be a true love of mine.

Are you goin' to scarborough fair? Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme.
Remember me to one who lives there. She once was a true love of mine.

It's made me think of the state of Helen and Nikki's relationship in this episode. In the S3E1 thread we've been discussing the scene where Helen breaks up with Nikki, and specifically Nikki calling Helen a coward. And in a way Nikki's feeling, it seems to me, echos in this song in a certain way. Because there's a bit of a feeling that Helen, without the emotional courage required, cannot be a "true love" of Nikki's.

I'm not trying to be too literal here, because I don't think Nikki is sitting there thinking "Helen needs to do this, this and this to win me back" which is what the singer of this song is doing. But on a less literal level, the singer is lamenting the impossibility of love betrayed ever healing. And I think that is a real issue for Helen and Nikki in S3, both at the start of the season with the initial breakup, and then after the riot.

Having viewed Bad Girls for the first time in a country where there was no "Missing Scene" in episode 3, and having grown used to its presence on my DVDs, I was left feeling somewhat deprived by its absence on Monday night, and found the whole experience strangely bothersome. ( For those non-UK viewers out there, just over 12 minutes into the episode the scene cuts straight from Denny saying to Shaz as they are let out of their cells, " The Governor must have gone friggin' stupid to let us out like this..." to Karen serving Shell her food in her cell. There is no "How are things?" scene between Helen & Nikki. Hell, they even cut the last part of Denny's sentence " or thinks we have!" because Nikki starts coming into shot in the background. Even that little snippet is important, as it sets up the scene for Shaz and Denny's subsequent taking advantage of the situation, to indulge in a bit of unfettered horseplay! )

But it made me realise how important the Helen & Nikki scene is. I've never really thought about the fact before, that it is the only H&N moment in the whole ep. Because when it's there, it sets up the whole of the rest of the ep with the feeling of Helen's presence with Nikki, even though she's not physically present. And it's important because it shows them reconnecting - there's something of their old understanding, it just has a good feel to it. Without it, it just feels empty and not right. There's a feeling of abandonment of Nikki, and a separation of the two of them, especially given Nikki's closeness to Yvonne in this ep - it gives that whole business a different feel too. Nikki seems almost as "unpartnered" as Yvonne, and the scene's absence possibly even creates the sense that she maybe really does consider herself to no longer have "someone on the outside" when she answers Yvonne's question in the negative. Nikki just seems really alone because of it, and her remark to Julie J when they are listening to Shaz singing is also heightened. It also doesn't make sense that Helen wouldn't have looked in on Nikki to see how she was doing. I'm amazed that that one little scene can make such a difference, and I have to question why it was left out in the first place. Supposedly the original excuse for leaving it out was that it was because of time contraints on the part of ITV - well that seems like a pretty feeble excuse to me! The section in question is exactly 62 seconds long! 62 SECONDS - and that was supposed to throw out their programme schedule for the whole night?! Please! If they were that concerned with going a minute over schedule - something I haven't noticed them being particularly concerned about, they could surely just as easily have dropped one of their own promotional adverts, rather than mess with the artistic integrity of Bad Girls!

It was interesting though to be able to see it as viewers here saw it for the first time, because I think perhaps not including it alters your perception of the standing of H & N's relationship to a certain extent. It's hard to even think of it without that scene because it is so entrenched in my mind now. But I think if I had seen the show for the first time, without that scene, I might have had a different take on how I viewed H & N's relationship - especially regarding what effectively seems like Helen's distancing herself from Nikki, because it means in effect that the contact between them goes from the bunk scene in Ep 2, where she is reassuring Nikki of her ongoing interest & of a theoretical relationship, to absolutely nothing and no ratification of that desire to maintain contact, until Ep 5 when she tells Nikki the good news about Sally-Ann Howe being prepared to give evidence on her behalf.

It just seems like an important scene to me. I think it conveys an important feeling/message about their relationship, because despite the fact that they are officially not a couple, there is an incredible intimacy to the scene, even though it is right there on the landing, in the open for all to see, there's a kind of relaxed familiarity about it, that goes beyond the normal "prisoner and officer working together for the good of the others" type of feel. It's something to do with their body language, what their eyes are doing/saying, and the shared in-joke of mutual feelings about Fenner. They just naturally slip into that "couples" familiarity of unspoken but implied feelings - it's like the moment in Ep 6 when Nikki thanks Helen "for everything" - it's two words but there is a world of feelings and understanding that passes between them in that moment.

I can perhaps imagine why people viewing the show the first time round, might from early on in the series have started developing a bit of a resistence to Helen for her seeming abandonment of /carelessness towards Nikki, if they didn't see any sign of her making the effort to check in on Nikki to make sure she was okay, even though she was obviously in the building, given that the last she had seen of her was a sad, miserable little heap on the bed. I think perhaps that scene adds a different dimension to everything that follows it, and without it, everything that follows takes on a slightly different hue. I've no way of knowing how I would actually feel about it if I hadn't ever seen that scene, because my take on the H&N relationship includes it as part of its overall perception of that relationship, all I can say is that it felt like something vital was missing, and *I* felt a sense of abandonment of Nikki without it ( even though I know it exists! ), so I can only imagine how 1st time viewers would have perceived the show without it.

I suppose there are umpteen scenes that ended up on the cutting room floor that may well have changed our take on the show if they had been included, but I feel that this is one that the programme makers deemed too important to leave out when they did their edit, so for ITV to leave it out seems to me like they were taking a liberty and altering a work of art that was not theirs to alter.

Thanks for posting this, JAMBF. I think it's an incredibly important observation. And you tie it into Shaz's song, which makes me feel even more strongly that the inclusion of the song is really about Helen and Nikki. As you mentioned, Nikki in this episode, without that first encouraging, sustaining scene with Helen, winds up seeming very lonely and isolated in this episode. Rather than feeling like Nikki is alone but imbued with Helen's love and trust, and that it's the connection between Helen and Nikki which enabled the prisoners' free, instead, Nikki seems totally and utterly alone and abandoned. And so the song, the song's melancholy and emotional isolation and distance, become a powerful echo of Nikki's abandonment. And how difficult love is.

I think, in truth, if we weren't so preoccupied with Helen and Nikki hereabouts, we could make an even more powerful argument that the song is about Julie S and Julie J, and that the voice of the betrayed lover is Julie J. And she needs Julie S to do the impossible to win her love back--to choose to stay in prison when she has the opportunity to be free.

Wonderful post, JAMBF, very well thought-out & presented, I can follow each of your conclusions to a T! I think recontextualizing the original airing in this way and considering how it might have effected people's perceptions is useful; the argument you set out for the inclusion of the scene, persuasive. (I mean yeah sure, everyone here would say Keep All Things H/N, but... so nice to be able to Rationalize it! ;) ) The one place my own perception may vary a bit is that I've always felt the start of the staircase scene to be quite awkward, as if Helen is trying to get her feet under her; really isn't sure how to address Nikki after all that's happened. And she knows, as well, she's about to ask Nikki a favor, and is uncomfortable with doing so, especially under the circumstances. (A point to keep in mind for later discussions about Helen's attitude or frame of mind on occasions where she asks for N's help.) The scene in particular has always made me feel she's quite aware how tricky all of this has become.

I totally agree that after the first half of the interaction, they start sliding back into the whole dynamic they've got, like two magnets set on opposite side of a room; they're still for a moment, then you see a little twitch or wiggle, and then zooop! back together. I had that kind of feeling from this scene... but not at the start.

The posts by Abzug on 'Scarborough Fair' and JAMBF do a fantastic job in pushing the debate forward, certainly in exploring the sense of melancholy and loss in the song and why the Helen / Nikki scene was so crucial. from my memory first time around, word had got out on the MB of the time via Australian BG fans of the Helen Nikki scene which Brit viewers had been denied. For the point of anyone without access to that knowledge, the perception might certainly have been skewed. There is one other point that the transmitted version had the extra advert break inposed in the programme which, I think, corresponds with the extra chapter in this series, 4 instead of 3 so this might be the only visible consequence of this mucking around.
Certainly, that vital scene shows how Helen is open in confiding to Nikki and has that shared sense of common experiences and feelings that ekny describes very clearly and graphically.

I thought you might find this regarding Scarborough Fair rather interesting abzug - it is from:

http://us.geocities.com/berchje/

"The narrator of the song is a man who was jilted by his lover. Although dealing with the paradoxes he sees himself posed to in a very subtle and poetic manner, this was a folk song and not written by nobles. The courtly ideal of romantic love in the middle ages, practised by knights and noblemen, was loving a lady and adoring her from a distance, in a very detached manner. There was hardly a dream and sometimes not even a wish that such love could ever be answered.

As a version of the song exists which is set in Whittington Fair and which is presumed to be equally old, it is puzzling why the lieu d'action of the song eventually became reverted to Scarborough. A possible explanation is that this is a hint from the singer to his lover, telling how she went away suddenly without warning or reason. Scarborough was known as a town where suspected thieves or other criminals were quickly dealt with and hung on a tree or à la lanterne after some form of street justice. This is why a 'Scarborough warning' still means 'without any warning' in today's English. This would also account for the absence of any suggestion of a reason for her departure, which could mean either that the singer doesn't have a clue why his lady left, or perhaps that these reasons are too difficult to explain and he gently leaves them out.

The writer goes on to assign his true love impossible tasks, to try and explain to her that love sometimes requires doing things which seem downright impossible on the face of it. The singer is asking his love to do the impossible, and then come back to him and ask for his hand. This is a highly unusual suggestion, because in those days it was a grave faux-pas to people from all walks of life for a lady to ask for a man's hand. Yet it fits in well with the rest of the lyrics, as nothing seems to be impossible in the song.

The meaning of parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme.
The herbs parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme, recurring in the second line of each stanza, make up for a key motive in the song. Although meaningless to most people today, these herbs spoke to the imagination of medieval people as much as red roses do to us today. Without any connotation neccesary, they symbolize virtues the singer wishes his true love and himself to have, in order to make it possible for her to come back again.

Parsley is still prescribed by phytotherapists today to people who suffer from bad digestion. Eating a leaf of parsley with a meal makes the digestion of heavy vegetables such as spinach a lot easier. It was said to take away the bitterness, and medieval doctors took this in a spiritual sense as well.

Sage has been known to symbolize strength for thousands of years

Rosemary represents faithfulness, love and remembrance. Ancient Greek lovers used to give rosemary to their ladies, and the custom of a bride wearing twigs of rosemary in her hair is still practised in England and several other European countries today. The herb also stands for sensibility and prudence. Ancient Roman doctors recommended putting a small bag of rosemary leaves under the pillow of someone who had to perform a difficult mental task, such as an exam. Rosemary is associated with feminine love, because it's very strong and tough, although it grows slowly.

According to legend, the king of fairies dances in the wild thyme with all of the fairies on midsummernight; that's the best known legendary appearance of the herb. But the reason Thyme is mentioned here is that it symbolizes courage. At the time this song was written, knights used to wear images of thyme in their shields when they went to combat, which their ladies embroidered in them as a symbol of their courage.

This makes it clear what the disappointed lover means to say by mentioning these herbs. He wishes his true love mildness to soothe the bitterness which is between them, strength to stand firm in the time of their being apart from each other, faithfulness to stay with him during this period of loneliness and paradoxically courage to fulfill her impossible tasks and to come back to him by the time she can."

Now could that be any more appropriate for Nikki and Helen and the Julies if it tried?! And for Helen & Nikki -"Rosemary is associated with feminine love, because it's very strong and tough, although it grows slowly." ! And does "the courtly ideal of romantic love in the middle ages, practised by knights and noblemen" ring any bells by any chance? :)

ekny, I agree that the Helen & Nikki interaction does start out slightly awkwardly, and that may have more to do with the nature of the favour that Helen is asking of Nikki, rather than that she is asking a favour at all - it's that she knows that Nikki doesn't like playing prefect. I think that their relationship has moved beyond the stage of awkwardness at asking one another favours. That's what couples do - and it's not regarded as a favour, it's just support. While they may not officially be a couple anymore, in their own minds and emotionally, they still are. So for Helen to be asking Nikki for her support and almost expecting it, as a given doesn't seem unreasonable. And it isn't all one-sided - Nikki asks Helen for a "favour" too when she asks her to sign the release warrant for Tinkerbell and her kittens in Ep 6.

Any awkwardness in Helen seeming to not quite know how to address Nikki, may also have something to do with the fact that she isn't sure of what sort of emotional state Nikki is in, so she makes an initial tentative approach. She's probably also not sure if everything is still okay between them, and it takes a few moments for her to realise that all is well - the rules are just slightly different. After that she relaxes and slips into an easy familiarity. I love your magnet analogy! "a little twitch or wiggle, and then zooop! back together." Perfect! :)

Wow, JAMBF. I'd say you'd really outdone yourself with this post, but in truth you always come up with stuff this good. Very very interesting. I've always wondered about the meaning of the herbs, and now I know!

This is just so cool, in terms of the association with Larkhall, and Helen and Nikki, with the idea of crime as a cause of the separation of the lovers. Fantastic. I had no idea.

OK, now, here's where I start to disagree with this author. I mean, "nothing seems to be impossible in the song"? What? EVERYTHING seems (IS!) impossible in the song. To me this isn't ambiguous or open for interpretation. The meaning of the verses, the do-this-and-you'll-be-a-true-love-of-mine, is very literal. And I think is intended to be literal. To me, this is a song of huge betrayal.

Again, wtf? I think the author is mistaking the beauty of the music with the meaning of the song. The idea that the singer is trying to soothe any bitterness is just WAY off. I just find it hard to understand why someone could interpret the song as being encouraging to the lover. "Do this thing that is absolutely impossible for you to do in this world, and then (and only then) you'll be a true love of mine." The implication being if you DON'T do these things, which you can't possibly do, then you aren't my true love. And this is supposed to be encouraging? I'm rather flummoxed.

OK, I just clicked though on the link, because really, I'm mystified. AND, I found something VERY interesting. JAMBF, you should have pasted this in, and then I wouldn't have gone on and on like that. SOOOO, turns out the original folk version of the song has some additional verses, which really change the tenor of the meaning:
If she tells me she can't, I'll reply
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Let me know that at least she will try
And then she'll be a true love of mine

Love imposes impossible tasks
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Though not more than any heart asks
And I must know she's a true love of mine

Dear, when thou has finished thy task
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Come to me, my hand for to ask
For thou then art a true love of mine

I italicized the pertintent bits. So, now, what are we to think? Are we to just think of the Simon & Garfunkel version, which is incredibly melancholy, which leaves out every bit of encouragement, and really winds up sounding quite bitter and cruel? Or are we to associate Shaz's singing with the longer version, with it's sense of the impossible, and the importance of TRYING, and that in a way the TRYING, in the context of how difficult love is, is often enough?

In a way, it's sort of analogous to this episode WITHOUT the Helen and Nikki scene (that's the melancholy Simon & Garfunkel version of the song) and WITH the Helen and Nikki scene (the longer, folk version of the song with the additional lyrics above). Without the Helen and Nikki scene, their intimacy seems impossible, and Helen's rejection much more complete. With the Helen and Nikki scene, there's a sense of possibility, the idea that they really are going to try, and that may be enough.

PS Now I get the gender analysis which was made above, the idea that it's not traditional in the era in which this song was written for a woman to ask a man's hand. Which I like, a lot, in terms of the association with Helen and Nikki, and the ways Nikki pulls Helen outside the realm of what Helen considers socially acceptable behavior, in order to find true love.

I can only echo Abzug's Wow (hm, tempting thread name, huh). I wasn't initially persuaded, but even without the extra verses & some of the more questionable interpretations of whoever wrote this, I agree it scans very neatly for the echoes suggested, underscoring some of H&N's themes. Didn't realize the song was so old. And even without the original lines Abzug went back to include (very useful, thx!), I feel both the song's positioning within the episode and its own meaning are strong enough to support its paradoxical longing for the impossible.

The combination of JAMBF's and Abzug's posts leave me happily applauding from the sidelines as this background is something I never knew or suspected. I just love the original version of the song and how fitting it is and it is equally right that a poster who comes across such an inspirational train of thought can enthuse to his or her heart's content. :)

It's interesting that, despite the correct interpretation of Simon and Garfunkel's song, Nikki in particular warms to the song which creates an atmosphere of real sensitivity amongst the women there. What's interesting is how Simon and Garfunkel came by the song which is explained by Paul Simon spending a year in England going around the english folk clubs just as Bob Dylan did a little earlier and a few of his very early songs drew on traditional folk melodies- OK I am an enthusiast of 60s American folk music and I couldn't resist working that in once the opening emerges. :D

Apologies abzug, I hadn't realised when pasting the article that you didn't have the full wording in your post - and as mine seemed incredibly long anyway, I didn't wish to repeat them! As to which version we should be cognisant of - well I suppose Shaz in effect only actually sings the first verse, then the "cambric shirt" one and then sings the final verse which repeats the words of the first verse ( or that is all we hear anyway), so on balance there are less "impossible" verses than positive "remember me to", wistful "she was once a true love of mine" verses! So I think I'd go with the hopeful outlook!

Incidentally the song is also positioned directly after Trevor leaves after his visit to Julie, and he makes the comment to her that he feels like rather an underachiever, given that she has made such a success of her life, and she is left feeling guilty that she hasn't told him the truth about herself. So the song probably applies to her and Trevor as well. "He was once a true love of mine." How will telling him the truth affect their relationship - will it makes a future relationship between the two of them impossible too?

I have a question about a comment that you made in your first post abzug, you said "Once Julie is out, she stumbles on the chance for heterosexual love, for a reunion with her first boyfriend." Does that mean that you consider the Julies to have a sexual relationship, and that Julie J in a later episode feels betrayed as a lover rather than just a friend, when she hears about Julie's intention of getting back together with Trevor ?

And to go back to an earlier question which you posed, regarding why they didn't send officers over from another wing when the G Wing officers were on strike - well Richard would be better qualified to comment on this than I am, but I would imagine that the other officers would refuse to do so, as it would be tantamount to being "blacklegs", as they would be undermining the cause of their fellow unionists.

I definitely DO NOT consider the Julies to have a sexual relationship. But I do consider them to have a companionate love relationship which has replaced the more traditional romantic, sexual pair-bonding which occurs in society outside of prison. Their closest relationship in the world is with eachother. They talk about living together when they get out. Etc. So in that sense, their relationship precludes either one of them being in love with a man, or marrying a man, because then their loyalty to eachother would be divided. Which is why Julie S's pursuit of a relationship with Trevor is a betrayal of her relationship with Julie J.

These series of discussions continue to be marvellous in the way that pretty well any out of the way material can be worked into the discussions.
My thanks to JAMBF for her timely prompt about the strike.

There is a brief clip in the 'deleted scenes' of the prison officers running around like headless chickens and I reached for the Bad Girls Book which gives this brief scene description which isn't in the actual episode. I am aware of the need to be careful of using material outside the text of the episode but the fact of the 'mass sickie' implies that Sylvia has had to work unnofficially in the parallel way that she worked with Dr No No to have Shell shipped over to the muppet wing.

'Sylvia has been trying to negotiate with her union hierarchy to make her strike call legal but she is told in no uncertain terms that it isn't only thing for it, a mass 'sickie' where each prison officer will report in too ill to work.'

Her idea of strike action is very peculiar as it is limited to the number of days it is possible to take uncertificated sick absence. When asked by Di what happens after that, she replied pretty selfishly and short sightedly that she would have no problems getting a doctor's certificate and forgets everyone else. The option of getting in prison officers from other wings is an interesting one and I can imagine that Helen would most certainly oppose that option in the same way that she aimed to stop the later riot spreading to other wings. For the reasons mentioned above, the reality of solidarity action is a peculiar one added to which it is an entirely open question as to whether other prison officers would react in solidarity when I think it was Fenner who said that it wasn't the sort of think that happened at that time compared in the past where 'everyone's out for number one.'

The whole episode has a bizarre resonance to my current experience in working for the government which has gove overboard in getting rid of civil servants who have more than so much time off.

Thanks for the clarification of your thinking regarding the Julies' relationship abzug - yes, that would be my thinking, I was just a little puzzled by your specific mention of a chance for "heterosexual love" - I thought you meant, as opposed to homosexual love! :)

Seeing as we've had a look at the significance of Scarborough Fair, I wondered whether or not there was any to She'll Be Coming 'Round The Mountain...

According to Wikipedia
'She'll be coming 'round the mountain' is an American folk song based on an old Negro Spiritual. The lyrics were changed in the 19th Century and the song was later sung by railroad work gangs in the US Midwest in the 1840s. After the initial "She'll be coming 'round the mountain" verse the same structure is repeated with the following verses:
"She'll be drivin' six white horses when she comes, etc.
Oh we'll all come out to meet her when she comes, etc.
We will kill the old red rooster when she comes, etc.

We'll be havin' chicken and dumplings when she comes, etc.
We'll all be shoutin' "Halleluja" when she comes, etc."

I have however come across several kids' versions of the lyrics which include "She'll be wearing red pyjamas when she comes" so it would appear that those aren't simply a Bad Girls or a Denny/Shaz concoction, but a modern variation.

Wiki goes on to say:
"While it is not entirely clear who the "she" in the song refers to, there are various plausible interpretations. One interpretation suggests that "she" is the train that will be coming through the tracks that are being laid out by workers." (Hmmm...can't imagine the modern, red pyjamas version working for that one!) " Another possible interpretation suggests that "she" refers to union organizer Mary Harris "Mother" Jones going to promote of labour unions in the Appalachian coal mining camps. White horses are a symbol of the mythological stature of Mother Jones and the rest of the song is related to the celebration which would ensue after her arrival."

It is rather interesting then that the girls are singing this song which is possibly an ode to a union organizer, while the officers are out on strike. They would be most unimpressed to know that they were inadvertently singing an ode to Bodybag I'm sure! On the other hand,
I think the scriptwriters do sometimes include little in-jokes (c.f. Thomas's "could be a long haul" line to Helen (SL) in S3 Ep14, while they are sitting outside the massage parlour waiting for Fenner to show up), so the "Mother Jones" in this instance could be an in-joke reference to Nikki (MJ) in her role as head-prefect keeping "an eye on things"!

Se3, Ep3.

I know I'm a bit late in this discussion but you need to sit thru a whole hour to get the complete picture. It's not like you can just fast forward thru the episode, unfortunately.

Nobody to open the cells this morning as the Screws are MIA thx to Bodybag.

Helen's suggestion of letting the inmates out of their cell is reluctantly agreed by Karen and lazy Stubby.

Helen asks Nikki to keep an eye and Nikki is less than thrilled about playing Headprefect to a bunch of prisoners run amuck but she can't say no to a pleading Helen and they soon separate. BTW did anybody notice how casual and matter of fact the whole scene looked almost like they couldn't get away from eachother fast enough. :o

Next we see Nikki and Yvonne chatting about how life sucks inside and Y wonders how come Nikki has shown no interest in anyone. Oh, if only she knew! when Josh passes by. Yvonne follows him and makes an outrageous request which the sensible Josh turns down. I wonder why? Is it the thought of bonking a woman old enough to be his mother which repels him or the knowledge that Crystal would bang her guitar on his elegant shaved head that puts him off. :lol1

Meanwhile Karen has given the Julies news that's going to create a rift in their relation.

Julie J is very depressed without Julie S who has moved in with Monica. Also I wonder if she really meant to harm herself with the knife.

Next Yvonne and Nikki back together again in Y's cell chatting or more correctly Yvonne sounding off, what bastards men are but bastards with schlongs. Nikki senses her need and hands her a chit with a tel.no. When Yvonne looks askance Nikki assures her that's just what Dr Nikki ordered. Nikki could give Virginia O'Kane a run for the money. :eek

Monica along with Julie S and Trevor are watching the school play "Macbeth" and as their son is enacting the dagger scene JS just ups and leaves with Monica and Trevor following very puzzled. Her son doesn't look happy.

So Nikki advocating fornication and JS abandoning her son for her weakling of a friend. :guns
Memo to Shed: Nice.

In this ep when the dilemma of the missing knife is solved by Nikki making a cardboard knife, Yvonne is not impressed or maybe still stinging from Josh's refusal.
Yvonne: Who do you think you are? Blue bloody Peter?
Nikki: Do you have anything better? (am paraphrasing) Ooh Nikki is equally touchy. I have to nothing to reveal here just that I found it funny.

Nikki and Yvonne are sitting listening to Shaz? singing and Yvonne wonders how come Nikki has shown no interest in anyone and Nikki:Who do you think you're, 'Jeremy bloody Paxson' and Yvonne:You won't believe...something..something. My query is did anyone follow what Yvonne said to Nikki?

Working entirely from memory here, but Yvonne said something about how she only realised now how lonely the nights could be, or how cold her bed was or something like that, now that she was in prison and seperated from male attention. Yvonne kind of mumbled there, I have never been too sure what she was on about!

Hi bgn, could y pls provide rough time-count? it makes it much easier to find the scene you're asking abt, thx! --e

Well according to the recaps on the Bad Girls Annex, the dialogue went something like this

"Yvonne : So how comes I never see you with any of the others?
Nikki : (Straining to hear over the noise in the background) Come again.
Yvonne : Well it's like what you were saying earlier, I mean, you're a good-looking woman, you could have your pick in here couldn't you? (And we're wondering if this is an ironic moment because the camera pans to Shaz and Denny who are hopping up and down on top of a table like loons)
Nikki : Yeah.
Yvonne : You got someone on the outside?
Nikki : (Very obviously) No!
Yvonne : What? No one in 'ere good enough for you?
Nikki : Who do you think you are? Jeremy bloody Paxman?
Yvonne : It's just I suppose I can see why some women are up for it...well, it's not until you're in a place like this that you wouldn't believe how much you miss having a fella to hold you at night. (Brilliant, brilliant eye-meet between N&Y...Nikki's dead serious and Yvonne's looking almost wistful) Those shitty beds can be bloody empty some nights, no matter how narrow they are."

Seems to be what I remembered as well. Hope that helps.

microsofty gets a bonus point for using memory only! B)

Thanx for the prompt response, Cassandra. :clap So Yvonne says quite a bit almost 2 lines. Microsofty atleast you got the gist of it. All this time I had no idea what she was blathering on. So basically she wants somebody to snuggle at night. B bu but doesn't she know she's incarcerated and she has to get by without any sense gratification. Hmm a horny Yvonne equals a tetchy Yvonne, now that her gangster hubby doesn't visit her anymore. lol

I thought both Helen and Nikki looked quite cute in this ep. Just wish Nikki would run her fingers thru her hair a bit.lol

My guess is that it's in the 3rd part of the ep. when Shaz and Denny are singing 'coming down the mountain' Ekny, just after Yvonne chides Shaz and Denny for playing around in the kitchen.

This was a wicked interesting episode. There are many things going on here.

Abzug states "…this episode seems to me to revolve around the ways loving relationships can trap us or set us free. It opens with the little exchange between Denny and Josh about his "institutionalization" which is (at first glance) a very cute, throwaway scene."

And yes, relationships can revolve around people, places, or things…but, to that I would add that relationships can also revolve around ideas.

The co-dependency between the Julies is difficult to watch. It is certainly a "trap" for Julie S. It seems very clear that their relationship can only exist inside of Larkhall where there is really no room to maneuver or exercise free will. Julie S's potential relationship with Trevor would most certainly cause a rift even if they were both on the outside. In this instance by coming back to Larkhall, Julie S becomes an enabler.

Di is a genuine nutter. It's true that she is emotionally trapped by her mother (as Abzug points out), but her imagination also formulates totally inappropriate relationships - first with Dominic and then Josh. The interesting thing here is that she manages to convince herself that she has been betrayed by Dominic before she really zeroes in on Josh. It's almost as if she were a predatory spider weaving a web designed to capture phantom lovers. The woman is delusional, and that is disturbing and sad.

I also agree that Helen knows that Nikki will keep things under control. Here Helen reverts back to S1 where she sought Nikki's help because she knows that prison only works when there is cooperation between prisoner and jailer. We are back to the "helpmate" model; the love is still apparent, but the relationship at this point has regressed. Friends? Yes. Active lovers? No.

The cell search was invasive, but in Yvonne's mind it was crucial to keeping them "free" from the stifling regimen enforced by the PO's. Here I think it was that relationship that was the motivating factor. Kind of an "us" vs. "them" dynamic.

Yvonne wanted sex - pure and simple, basic primitive needs. Even in her dealings with Charlie, her feelings were not always romantically motivated. Her problem was that she could not see outside the heterosexual paradigm and accept an orgasm for orgasm's sake.
Actually, the marvelous give and take between her and Nikki would suggest she didn't think orgasm between two women was even possible. Sad, innit?
It's strange that Nikki, by suggesting a sexual relationship within Larkhall as a way of release for Yvonne, was denying an integral part of her relationship with Helen. I haven't quite figured this out in my own mind yet, but I will keep working on it.

Abzug, linking Macbeth and Helen was a fantastic observation. Quote: "…Macbeth is about a power-hungry man who oversteps. He wants to be king, and he does anything and everything to become king, destroying himself in the process. Could this not be foreshadowing what Helen destroys in her effort to become (and stay) Governing Gov…" and I am in total agreement with the analogy.

The interesting thing about institutional history is that regardless of why a political, social, economic or religious institution is formed, eventually the institution forgets the reason(s) for being and the focus becomes one of self perpetuation. This is certainly true of Larkhall and the good-old-boy network relationship. Helen refuses to listen to Nikki about Femi and after the riot Nikki says something like …I thought you wanted to change things… to which Helen replies …you betrayed me … I am the system!! Here the metamorphosis from the crusader and helpmate paradigm to Helen as Larkhall insider appears to be complete and she destroys the relationship in the bargain. I am getting ahead of myself…sorry…couldn't help it.

Way too pooped to continue this. I am really perplexed about the Scarborough Fair and its relationship to either Nikki and Helen or the two Julies. Really need to think about it some more.

Great post, yankeelady. I really liked all the ideas you brought up.

Can you clarify this a bit more? Because I thought Yvonne was pretty easily able to accept an orgasm for orgasm's sake, without any need for emotional commitment or anything like that. Her early flirting with Dominic in S1 seemed to imply that, and her actions with the gigilo in S3 definitely did. But perhaps I am totally missing your meaning?

Here I give Yvonne a bit more benefit of the doubt, and interpret her "you don't have the tackle" to mean being with a woman wouldn't do it for her. not that it isn't possible in general.

I like this idea a lot. It's right on the money, and definitely captures the problem or risks that Shed is trying to expose: even if you have the best of intentions, if you decide to work within the system to change it, you are going to inherently become part of that system and its self-perpetuation. It's a huge shift, as you point out, for Helen to go from S1E1 Helen "I don't believe in a system which locks up pregnant women" Stewart to S3E11 Helen "I am the system" Stewart.

QUOTE (yankeelady)
Even in her dealings with Charlie, her feelings were not always romantically motivated. Her problem was that she could not see outside the heterosexual paradigm and accept an orgasm for orgasm's sake.

QUOTE (Abzug)
Can you clarify this a bit more? Because I thought Yvonne was pretty easily able to accept an orgasm for orgasm's sake, without any need for emotional commitment or anything like that. Her early flirting with Dominic in S1 seemed to imply that, and her actions with the gigolo in S3 definitely did. But perhaps I am totally missing your meaning?

Yes, I guess I didn't make myself too clear on the point I was trying to make. I should have said:

Her problem was that she could not see outside the heterosexual paradigm and accept an orgasm for orgasm's sake in terms of her having a lesbian relationship. Remember, she said she would rather shag Fenner than "turn lezzie".

Even though she was interested in whom Nikki might be with, I still got the impression that she was not convinced that women's relationships in general were not satisfying in the sexual context. Could be wrong, but that's what I got out of the "you don't have the tackle" comment; I just don't think she could see the possibilities. I think her own sexual needs were raw and primitive; she certainly wasn't in to subtlety.

Institutional history and political science were passions of mine at university. Fascinating topic, and I am still learning. I could still go on forever. I drive my partner to distraction.

In terms of Helen's quest for power, it was transparent as well as conflicted. When it became personal it started to fall apart. Her journey, for me, is really twofold. Her sexuality is certainly uppermost, but it shares space with all the institutional and emotional trappings that made up her moral compass …sexuality being only one part of the picture. I love the character and Simone's portrayal, but it certainly is exasperating at times.

I see where you're getting at here. It kind of reminded me of that scene in "Go Fish" where Daria (the lothario) says "It was just sex!" when her fellow lesbians were condemning her for having sex with a man.

What's kind of fascinating, as I'm thinking about it, is that this idea of opportunistic lesbianism in all-female environments (women's colleges, prison etc) is a very popular one. I wonder if one could argue that BG is trying to undermine this particular myth, while also bringing lesbian relationships to the foreground. When I think about it, over 8 seasons there are only two characters who have lesbian relationships who didn't identify as lesbians: Helen and Sheena. I guess one could also throw Caroline into that category, although that's such a complicated character that it's hard to generalize based on her. Oh, wait, Shell also.

OK, so, now, looking at those four, it's almost as if the show is suggesting that the ability to be opportunistic about sexuality (by which I mean: get an orgasm where it's available, which in Larkhall would be with a woman) is not a positive thing. That in fact it might be the sign of a pathological personality (Shell and Caroline).

That's really very interesting, isn't it? Just to be clear, I don't agree with the show's position on this, but I get why they did it. They're trying to honor lesbian relationships, and so they don't want to undermine their message by having lesbian sex or relationships portrayed as a convenience, a willing to be satisfied with what's available. But they recognize that it DOES happen. So they solve the problem by having the repugnant characters engage in this kind of behavior, and thus associate it with a lack of integrity.

Abzug, I do tend to agree that BG is "trying to undermine the myth (of opportunistic lesbianism in all-female environments", and it is true that it exists. I'm sure we've all met someone who was gay until graduation (lol), but…

I am not sure that BG is suggesting that the ability to be opportunistic about sexuality (woman/woman), might be the "sign of a pathological personality (Shell and Caroline)"

I think there are many people (men, women, straight, gay, lesbian and everything in between) who use sex as a tool…a means to an end. Machiavellian, yes…pathological, not necessarily. In this context, however, you could certainly characterize Fenner as both Machiavellian and pathological. Caroline is a conundrum, but definitely Machiavellian. Shell is certainly not wrapped very tight and in need of therapy that she will not receive in the prison environment, but her behavior also fits the Machiavellian profile.

Your last paragraph really hits the mark for me.

QUOTE:
"That's really very interesting, isn't it? Just to be clear, I don't agree with the show's position on this, but I get why they did it. They're trying to honor lesbian relationships, and so they don't want to undermine their message by having lesbian sex or relationships portrayed as a convenience, a willing to be satisfied with what's available. But they recognize that it DOES happen. So they solve the problem by having the repugnant characters engage in this kind of behavior, and thus associate it with a lack of integrity."
END QUOTE

Rather than a lack of integrity, would it also make sense to equate the behavior as being amoral? This is a stronger word that would fit Shell and Caroline and also Fenner in a larger context.