I've been reading a book which in part was addressing how femme lesbians can't be read as lesbian in isolation--they need to have a butch partner with them in order for them to be seen clearly as lesbians. In contrast, butch women are seen as lesbians when they are on their own, or with another woman.

This made me start thinking about the marketing of Nikki's character in S1, as a "lipstick" lesbian, and how that never sat quite right with me. I think this is partially because, in a number of surface, obvious ways, Helen is more "femme" than Nikki, and so Nikki winds up coming across as butch, relative to her romantic partners (since Trish is also distinctly more feminine than Nikki).

Of course, there have been a number of discussions about how Helen is the "butch" one in the relationship--she's less emotionally expressive, she has a lot of power in the relationship, she wears pantsuits.... ;)

This led me to start contemplating the potentially very wide gulf between how Helen sees herself, and how others see Helen. For instance, in the last 25% of S2, Nikki becomes obsessed with this idea that Helen might decide she wants a man. We as audience members know that Nikki is mis-reading the situation, manufacturing evidence, if you will. In fact, Helen gives no direct indication that she still has any interest in men. She positively declares her feelings for Nikki (insisting she's not fickle, asserting she shares the feelings Nikki wrote in her letter), and never talks about men or behaves towards men in a way that would suggest she's still got any interest there.

But yet, I think most audience members watching don't consider Helen's lesbianism to be a done deal at this point. Like Nikki, we see Helen as having potential to choose to go back to men. But I don't see why we think this--we're not given any evidence for it, other than Nikki's paranoia, which obviously isn't reliable.

Now, someone might argue, but abzug, we KNOW Helen DID get back with a man in S3, so there's your proof right there! But so many things happened between the end of S2 and when Helen got together with Thomas that I'm really hesitant to consider her to be the same person with the same feelings, capable of the same decisions and actions, when comparing these two time periods.

What's interesting to me is the information we receive as audience members and how we interpret that information. For instance, do we need to see Helen kiss another woman before we think she's gay? Do we need to see her have sex with another woman? Do we need to see her tell Nikki she loves her? Do we need to see her say it in a direct way (the way she does after they have sex) or can it be more oblique (the reference to the letter)? Do we need her to say "I am a lesbian"? Which, of course, is something she never does. But yet, we seem to have been waiting for her to do this. But why? I mean, why can we not read Helen in S2 as considering herself a lesbian? (And by lesbian I mean Helen seeing herself in a relationship with a woman and not thinking that this is just a temporary phase, but potentially how she's going to spend the rest of her life.)

And, is Nikki our proxy in all of this? So that when Nikki is sure of Helen's feelings/actions/identity, we as audience members become sure of it as well? But Nikki isn't a reliable proxy, as the whole jealousy incident reveals, so why are we relying on her conclusions?

I guess the other question in my mind, which I didn't state clearly, is this: Are we seeing Helen as not-lesbian because of her femininity? I mean, do we need her (homo)sexuality to be constantly re-asserted and re-stated in order to believe it? And if she were less feminine (particularly in contrast to Nikki) would we need less repetition?

[SIZE=1]“do we need to see Helen kiss another woman before we think she's gay? Do we need to see her have sex with another woman? Do we need to see her tell Nikki she loves her? Do we need to see her say it in a direct way (the way she does after they have sex) or can it be more oblique (the reference to the letter)? Do we need her to say "I am a lesbian"?”

[SIZE=7]
For me, it's not that I want to be re-assured she prefers being with a woman over a man, but that she truly loves & cares for Nikki.

"do we need her (homo)sexuality to be constantly re-asserted and re-stated in order to believe it?”

[SIZE=7]
I think so. I started watching BG because it was set in a women's prison and I figured it would have great drama & story lines. I never saw the H&N thing coming, because Helen is so "straight looking". Even though I did notice right away they had a lot of chemistry, I never thought the writers would be brave enough to explore it.

This is really interesting, primarily because I think lots of people shared your experience. So then I start to wonder, are we audience members the ones at fault for making these kinds of assumptions (Helen is so straight-looking, she's not a lesbian)? Or, alternatively, did the writers assume we'd interpret Helen this way, and therefore gave her these traits purposefully?

For instance, did they cast a particularly feminine woman on purpose, so that we wouldn't guess they were going to make her gay? And did they keep her from making many declarative statements so that we (and Nikki) had to rely on our assumptions about formerly-straight women and their inconstancy? I mean, that makes the story more dramatic and surprising and unexpected, right, if the writers set up our expectations so that we don't see it coming.

Like, the writers may have been relying on the fact that viewers don't expect feminine women to be lesbians, and don't expect adult straight women to fall in love with other women. Which is another way of saying, were we all reading Helen wrong in mid S2-mid S3, the way Nikki was reading her wrong? Or did the writers assume that we'd read her "wrong" in which case we're reading her right?

I think the writers did assume some audience members would be surprised Helen would allow herself to fall for Nikki not just based on Helen's appearance, but also personality.

It wasn't just Helen being more feminine than the average lesbian character, but also her strict, professional personality that made it that much more surprising & interesting to me.

From mid S2- mid S3, I'm not so sure Nikki was reading her the wrong way. I think Nikki had every right to be concerned about Helen's true feelings/intentions just based on Helen's past & lack of re-affirming her love (verbally) to Nikki on a regular basis.

abzug

I actually feel they've shown Helen as quite committed to her relationship with Nikki at this point. She's working hard on Nikki's appeal. She's discussed how Nikki turned her life "upside down". I take her at her word (which I think means a lot to her and that she doesn't give lightly) that she's not fickle in her feelings for Nikki, that she agrees with what Nikki put in her letter. So, I don't actually look at those other factors. Do I have to be convinced that she'd never have another relationship with a man if she and Nikki didn't work out to accept the validity of their relationship?

You know, so do I! This is the weird thing I am trying to figure out. Like you, I feel Helen's commitment to Nikki, in her actions, words and behavior. And that's why Nikki's jealousy seems so bizarre and unwarranted.

But then how do we reconcile that with Helen dating Thomas, and her big revelation at the end of S3 that she wants a woman? That's what made me start to feel like Helen's level of commitment to Nikki and to her new sexuality was actually really strong in S2, but then swung back to a place of uncertainty by mid-S3, which is what made her vulnerable to Thomas's interest, and then made it necessary for her to declare herself to Nikki in a more formal way at the end of S3.

I guess I've been thinking that had Nikki's first appeal request been granted, and Nikki hadn't had to spend much more time at Larkhall after her escape, Helen would never have had to make any sort of "I want a woman" declaration, because it would have been assumed--she had proved it in words and actions for the whole second half of S2.

Two cents from my side. I found it very refreshing the way in which the BG writers chose to present the N&H storyline. In my opinion, neither of them was overtly "butch" nor "femme" and the way in which this was presented broke away from the stereotypical view of lesbians. How else do you break down a stigma if you perpetuate the public at large's view on homosexuality? It was not only refreshing that N&H was not presented in this way, it was also quite NECESSARY, if you ask me. Nikki and Helen were just two people falling in love with each other's souls and the fact that they were both women then becomes a bit irrelevant. I think the intention was to show this "forbidden" love in a more "normal" setting, making us love the characters individually first before they're paired together. Am I making any sense?

I doubted Helen's lesbianism not because of any insincerity on her part, but because (and I've always stated this in numerous debates on the issue) of the fact that you don't turn around in a short space of time once you've been confronted with your sexuality and denounce your "previous" straight life in favour of your "new found self". It's a process and it's a process that anyone and everyone that went through it, can vouch for. It takes a lot of introspection and exploration before you are finally ready to commit to the realisation and the whole new lifestyle it brings. Coupled with that was Helen's religious upbringing that I've also debated in the past, which had an influence on her and added to the internal conflict she felt. The way in which Helen's internal struggle was portrayed created the doubt and NOT the way Helen looked or chose not to look like.

abzug

I'm sure that's what Helen felt as well!

I have to admit I thought it was a pretty "soap opera" storyline with Nikki's "unwarranted" jealousy presented so soon after that delicious scene when Helen conducted her first lifer's meeting. It seemed like we weren't given five minutes to enjoy their euphoria in their developing relationship.

As for her relationship with Thomas. After the first time she slept with him, I found her behaviour the next day at Larkhall puzzling, to say the least. We found out she hadn't slept that night (which I took as a reflection of how conflicted she felt since she still had feelings for Nikki). But then, she seemed very happy to see Thomas and even kissed him when she bumped into him in the hall.

abzug

I agree. I'm one of those people who believe Helen fell in love with Nikki and of that she was sure. The rest I'm not sure mattered to her. The declaration of "I want a woman" at the end of series 3 would have been more for Nikki's benefit, as you say, after the Thomas incident.

In the interest of complicating things further, I'd add that by the end of S3, this declaration was also necessary for Helen's sake, because during her liaison with Thomas, she had gone back to envisioning a heterosexual life for herself. She had lost some of the certainty she had in the second half of S2. But the statement was, as you say, only necessary because of what had happened with Thomas.

There's also the flirtation with Dominic, right, minor as it is (and questionable as it is whether she's really flirting)?

We also don't see other evidence of Helen becoming a lesbian (not that it's easy to show such a thing!). Like Nikki, the viewer is asked to accept a rapid and permanent change of heart and sexuality, which is a lot to believe in. If Nikki suddenly declared herself bisexual, we might be similarly skeptical and inclined to hold onto our prior assumptions.

Two random thoughts ...
Do we ever fully let go of our belief that Nikki could be violent? She rarely is, unless severely provoked, and we know why she killed a man. But as with Helen's sexuality, I think our presumptions die hard.

Also this discussion reminds me of the talk about the actors. Mandana's consistency in her quotes about the show and about Nikki make it easy to label her. And maybe Simone's inconsistency in a few early interviews makes it hard for some people to accept where she's at now.

I agree that Helen commited to Nikki in S2 as much as she was able. But I wouldn't agree that Nikki's jealousy mid-S2 was completely unwarranted. Over the top, yes. And part of that was due to paranoia magnified by the prison environment and the "mixed signals" that Helen gave out whenever she practically flirted with Dominic. Nikki needed reassurance about Helen's commitment. She needed to hear verbally what Helen felt. But Helen, being Helen, was unable to do so. Saying you feel the same way is NOT the same as actually describing your feelings. More importantly it's one thing to say you want to be with someone but quite another thing to actually do it. Particularly if declaring yourself publically means going against your family's beliefs and your own religion. Nikki had no way of being sure that Helen would actually go through with it and no doubt that fueled her jealousy.

ETA - Pipped to the post by you, jezz! Anyway you mentioned "Simone's inconsistency in a few early interviews". I assumed that Simone had been primed not to give away too much of the storyline so that was why she was a bit vague in them. But I suppose it might have confused any viewers who were unable to think for themselves.

I felt the show was pretty clear that it wasn't flirting. Helen was explicit about wanting to pick Dominic's brain about the lifers, and when he tries to push dinner in a different direction (away from work stuff), she is visibly disappointed and says so.

Yes, this is true, especially because most of this transition happens offscreen, after Helen has resigned. We see little bits of it in S2E2, where Helen's attraction for Nikki is transmuted into anger, except for the one instance, the mug shot caress, where Helen seemingly allows herself to feel her longing and attraction for Nikki.

In the end, I guess it depends on how much you believe in the emotions of certain later scenes, like the visiting room, the conversation and kissing in S2E7 when Helen comes back to work at Larkhall, etc. To me, the eye contact in the visiting room, the simple phrase "I've missed you Nikki," Helen's assurances to Nikki in the art room that she's serious and committed, Helen's copying of Nikki's file--all of this wipe away my memories of Helen's inconstancy from S1E9 to S2E2. The "process" that Microsofty mentions in my view, occurs between S1E9 (or possibly S1E7) and S2E6 (a period of 6 or 7 months, according to the timeline).

I totally agree. But in a way, that's exactly my point. As viewers, how much are we allowing Nikki's excessive need for reassurance to influence our interpretation of Helen's commitment to Nikki and to same-sex desire?

I'm interested in all of this discussion about Helen's religious background. If I am not mistaken, the only evidence for this is in the book, not in the show itself. In the show itself, the only thing we learn about her family is that her father never approves of anything she does. Including heterosexual marriage. So I'm personally hesitant to put a lot of weight on Helen being concerned about familial rejection. It seems to me she's already learned to live with familial rejection, even if she's not exactly happy about it, so why would fear of further familial rejection be the primary reason (or A primary reason) that Helen tries to avoid being a lesbian?

The other aspect of the religion discussion seems to be that Helen inherently and unavoidably absorbed homophobic values from her religious family. This is also something I would question. Helen's character is depicted as utterly not homophobic in the first half of S1. Her scene with Sean where he makes a big deal about Nikki being a lesbian and Helen says something like "So?" suggests to me that sexuality (in others) is truly a non-issue for her. I draw the same conclusion from her empathy for Nikki following the break-up with Trish, empathy for which she is repeatedly mocked and belittled by Fenner and others.

So then the argument in this debate might be: Well, it's a very different thing to think it's ok for someone else to be gay than to think that you yourself are gay. And I agree with that argument, to some extent. But that has nothing to do with religious background--that's just being human in a hetero-centric society. So for me it still doesn't follow that Helen has a hard time with being a lesbian because of her religious background, nor that Helen's religious background is evidence that she was struggling with being a lesbian.

I might actually go so far as to make the argument that, in the second half of S2, Helen's inability to declare herself in the way that Nikki needed had more to do with her natural emotional reserve and her concerns about Nikki being a prisoner, and had very little to do with concerns about being in a same-sex relationship. In a way, that was the brilliance of the show in S1-2, that they created a passionate and forbidden lesbian romance where the conflict/obstacle in the relationship was NOT straight-woman-can't-come-to-terms-with-being-gay, but was instead something else, something much more insurmountable in this day and age. In the second half of S3, the show actually fell much more into this familiar narrative, although I think they managed to find an interesting and original balance.

But she does invite him in for late-night drinks in her apartment ... maybe (probably) because she's lonely and needs a friend, but I'd argue she's at least a little flirtatious, even if unintentionally so.

Absolutely! And that was part of the brilliance of the show. Who was it said Helen's subconscious is the most interesting character in the show? That really comes thru here.

Sorry, not clear. I meant her inconsistency related to gay issues on the show ... the old controversy. I think she's cleared it up but some people might hold onto first impressions in the way we might've held onto our initial impression that Helen's straight.

Oooh, now, this brings up a REALLY interesting question. Is it possible to be flirtatious without intention? I mean, if Helen considers herself to be being friendly to Dominic in a platonic way, then how can she be flirting? Because isn't flirting, by definition, the act of trying to express sexual interest and elicit sexual interest in your target? If she doesn't have that objective, then is it her fault that he reads it as flirtation? I've also always been one of those people who thinks Helen "couldn't have NOT let him in" as she tells Nikki. I mean, if I had a coworker show up at my door, I'd definitely have to let that person in for a drink, even if there was the history of jealousy on my gf's side. I mean, she probably assumed Nikki would never find out, and that was a pretty safe assumption, given that she was at home and Nikki was locked up in jail.

abzug

You took the words right out of my mouth.

By the time Helen returns to Larkhall when she visits Nikki, I think she has done a lot of soul searching and has decided she wants to pursue a relationship with Nikki.

I think she more than demonstrates her commitment to Nikki by her actions. For some people "those three words" are extremely difficult to say. Am I right that the only previous time Helen said them was to Sean when she was really trying to get out of talking about marriage?

If you look at what Helen has done: She's come to visit Nikki, having to come back to Larkhall and walk into the visitors room and be scrutinized by people like Bodybag (during which, as abzug says, she looks at Nikki and says she's missed her) she's looked into an appeal for Nikki; she gets a job that brings her back to Larkhall; she starts the lifer's group; she photocopies her file; she gets her friend Claire to take on her case; she has a meaningful discussion with Nikki in the art room; she tells her she feels the same as Nikki described in her letter and confirms that she's not fickle in her feelings for Nikki.

At this point has Nikki actually said she loved Helen?

abzug

I totally agree.

I'm not sure even in s. 3 (which I watch only sparingly) that she's having a problem with her sexuality. It's still her job that creates the problem with Nikki.

I think flirting can be the act of trying to express sexual interest. But it can also be the act of behaving as though you're attracted to someone, using certain behaviors. The difference of behavior vs intent. I think you can invite a co-worker into your home on a platonic basis -- but in this case the very uptight and righteious Helen invites a colleague into her home at night, when she knows he thinks she's single and (I think) that he's interested in her. She provides drinks, she talks quietly, leans toward him .... and the other details I can't remember. Of course she also tells him (eventually) that she's not interested in him and in fact loves Nikki. But up to that point, I'd describe it as a flirtatious evening, which is supported by his attempt at a kiss. He was reading signals she may not have intended to give but that were there nonetheless.

You could flip it and ask if Helen sends any non-flirtatious signals, and I don't recall any, where you might argue a lesbian in her situation would've made the boundaries more clear from the start. Maybe one reading is she doesn't know how to send off gaydar yet ... she assumes he'll keep his distance, not recognizing he still sees her as a potential girlfriend. But you could also argue she still enjoys a man's attention and the potential for approval from him.

At any rate, I think the presence of a scene like this undermines the viewer's perception of Helen as a lesbian. I love it, actually, because you have her words (that she loves Nikki) set in contrast with the setting (alone in an apartment with a good-looking guy who likes her). Should we believe her words? Does she believe her words? Do her actions indicate she's actually confused, or is she perhaps still behaving as a straight woman? Nikki overreacts (in one of the lesser storylines the two characters had, I think), but it does seem like the writers were doing a good job of keeping the truth a little murky when it came to Helen and her sexuality.

"You were amazing up on that roof Helen. And I've got to tell you, I'm totally in love with you."

Yes, she has. :)

I love this scene too, but not because I'm reading against the meaning of the scene, as I think you feel that you are. Helen is SO isolated in this particular moment of her life. She seemingly has no friends, no outlet to talk about her relationship or to even have any companionship in her life outside of work. Dominic is the one work person who has been loyal and supportive to her. I think at this stage she's not certain he's interested--she's been clear that she wants to talk with him about work stuff whenever they make plans for outside of work, and I think she just doesn't see him this way, so she doesn't imagine that he would, or that if he did, he would act on it.

Soooooo (sorry for being long-winded), when she invites Dominic in, and in fact is friendly to him, and invites him to stay even after the kiss incident, I think it's Helen just not wanting to be alone, desperately wanting to share what's going on in her life with someone who might be sympathetic, and who won't put her at risk. Dominic is just there, at the right time.

And I think the reason we like the scene is not because we're ignoring her flirting with Dominic, but because we see the private Helen for the first time in a long time (since early S2), and this private Helen is so clearly torn up inside about how things are going with Nikki, and about the desperation of her situation with Nikki in general, and Dominic provides the sympathetic ear, the audience for Helen's emotions that she's so wary about baring to jealous Nikki. So to read this scene as Helen flirting with Dominic means that the important emotional connection of the scene fades to the background, and really it should be in the foreground. Here's a woman who misses her lover, who is worried about the future of her relationship with her lover, and who just does not want to be alone with those feelings.

I also think that the scene with Dom and Di is important because Di is the catalyst for Dom going to Helen's place. I don't think he would have gone to her place if Di hadn't pretty much pushed him into thinking more romantically about Helen. Really Di helped put the idea into his head that Helen was interested in him. Yeah?

Totally. I mean, if anyone was flirting with Dominic in this episode, it's Di, sort of as a proxy for Helen. She goads and encourages him, and reassures him of Helen's interest. Helen herself isn't doing any of that. And I guess Di does it because she's interested in Dom, and knows he's got the hots for Helen, so she wants to engage with him romantically any way she can, so she participates in his romantic interest in Helen.

Huh, had another thought related to this. One of the suggestions I made above is that part of the reason we audience members interpret Helen as being inconstant or unreliable in her feelings for Nikki is because Nikki feels this way about Helen at the end of S2, and has a need for "excessive reassurance" as I referred to it above. Isn't the Di thing parallel? By which I mean that part of the reason we audience members interpret Helen as flirting with Dominic is because Di thinks this is what Helen is doing, and she is constantly asserting this belief.

What's particularly interesting about juxtaposing those two false readings of Helen is it reveals how vulnerable Helen is to being mis-read, to having feelings imposed on her, acted on her, due to these mis-readings. Nikki lashes out, Dominic tries to kiss her. And it's for reverse reasons: Dom sees more passion in her than she actually feels, and Nikki sees less.

I think Helen is so hard for other characters to read because of the pressure of hiding her feelings and her relationship. This constant hiding has to have a broad impact on how she's processing and expressing her emotions. Maybe that's why she finally tells Dominic, because she is SO sick of being mis-read by everyone, and coming out of the closet is the only way to stop it.

In which case, if we're making a list of reasons for Helen's behavior at the end of S2 which don't have to do with her having doubts/concerns/internalized homophobia about her sexuality or her desire to be with Nikki, we can add a third reason to the list: the pressure of the closet. (The first two, in case your e.s.p. is failing you, were her natural reserve, and her anxiety about the governor-prisoner relationship).

I agree with you about the probable reason she finally told Dom. I also think you are spot on about her having nobody to lean on or tell about her situation with Nikki. She absolutely was totally isolated and in jail as well. Poor little thing.

I am one that didn't see any flirting on Helen's part at her flat. Nervous having to deal with him but not really flirty. I saw her as more uncomfortable.

She was sick of everybody assuming that she had an interest in him. I also think that she was able to slowly forgive Nikki finally because she started thinking about how every one around her assumed she was interested in Dom romantically so maybe Nikki did have a point. I mean Karen finally pissed her off! One more time, poor little thing. :hug2

This is a fascinating subject. I like the questions asked to consider. I have to wonder and try to put it into the perspective of the hetero viewer. Is that even possible to do?

My recollection from the first time I watched this was Helen was straight. Helen was interested in finding ways to make her position tenable in light of little support from her superior and of course Fenner. Helen's initial interest in Nikki is work related, then Helen finds she has an attraction to Nikki. I agree with the poster who said Shed was murky in portraying Helen's sexuality at some points, in particular after S2 and going into S3.

Now going back to my thoughts...my gaydar was humming with Helen. But why? Perhaps because I wanted it to. Although again Helen was presented as falling for Nikki. Does that in itself mean she is now lesbian? Of course we find out the answer at the end of S3. Would the average hetero viewer pick up on that? Would the hetero viewer believe that Helen was now a lesbian? To me that is an interesting point.

Going back to your original statement...I think Helen fits the bill as femme lesbian, and in society, probably would not be clearly seen as lesbian.

How we as viewers interpret Helen and the situation might have everything to do with whether the viewer is gay or straight.

I love this thread. Great questions! I think the reason the audience is more comfortable labeling Nikki's sexual identity and less comfortable labeling Helen's is because Nikki never changes. She's a lesbian from the get go; whereas Helen is in a heterosexual relationship, then with Nikki, then with Thomas, then back with Nikki. It makes it harder to read the true motivations behind her actions IMHO, which I believe was the writer's intention all along. I think some people in the audience have difficulty understanding how a woman can perceive herself as gay when she's dated and been attracted to men in the past. (Nikki struggles with this issue as her jealousy demonstrates) which (on a side note) is why (sadly) there's a huge backlash against bisexuals in the gay community. It's like everyone wants you to choose--not realizing that there are people who are just naturally sexually attracted to both men and women. We've seen Helen attracted to both sexes throughout the series. In the end, she knows Nikki is the only one for her though...her soulmate.

I don't for one second believe that Helen's religious upbringing was the begin all and end all of her internal struggles, just that is was a part of the process. Familial or any other rejection was never part of her process as I think that Helen was very much a loner. Any references to friends was always from Sean's mouth and after that we don't see Helen really socialising and this is also where Dom finds her - alone in her flat. Helen also didn't have any form of homophobia - I'll never accuse her of that. But, as you rightly stated abzug, it's two different ball games to be OK with someone else being gay and you yourself being gay - to some extent. What would be the typical reaction/process that one goes through when confronted with your own sexuality?

1. I don't want to be like that - if you have a preconceived idea of homosexuality that is fuelled by stereotypes.
2. What will other people think of me? The fear of rejection.
3. I'm going to go to hell for it. Religious upbringing/believes play a role here in terms of what you may or may not believe of God and to some extent the church's view on homosexuality. The universal truth of religion vs. homosexuality is not a case in point, but what you, as the individual perceive that universal truth to be.
4. How can I be sure? Who says I'm not just fooling myself? Very few people have an absolute certainty about their sexuality, especially in the case of homosexuality (I don't know of any heterosexuals who ever question their sexuality). Most people, if not all, go and test the assumption. Helen also certainly did. She enjoyed Dom's attention and went for Thomas - she had to be sure.
5. If this is true, what is the implications for my sexual identity? Helen believed her whole life, up to this point, that she was a heterosexual. Or did she? It brings up an interesting question in my mind as to whether she never had any doubts? Was she living in ignorant oblivion all this time? Did she never had an inkling, fleeting doubts as to her sexuality? I suppose questions such as these brings us back to the nature vs. nurture question - are you born homosexual or do you turn homosexual as a result of certain incidences? Something in Nikki's soul spoke to something in Helen's soul and that something (whatever it was) wasn't something that Helen could deny anymore.

And, as most of us know, this process is not a linear process - it is very much circular. I do believe that the moment Helen felt she had certainty, she went a full circle moment and was back to the starting point that consisted of doubts and uncertainties. She felt sure and secure in the knowledge that she loved Nikki, but the moment she felt that, Nikki turned insanely jealous or whatever, which made Helen doubt whether she wanted to live this kind of life ("I don't want to be like that"). I believe it is entirely possible to accept yourself as homosexual, but at the same time reject the whole homosexual sub-culture, or at the very least distancing yourself from it. The "lesbian paranoia" was certainly something that Helen rejected, but this didn't cause her to stop loving Nikki. But they certainly needed normal in their lives - free from the confinement of jobs and lock-ups.

I also think that the subtlety of the writing is superb in that we are years later still able to try and analyze what Helen is all about. I found her need to really connect to someone in an intimate way to be her catalyst with Nikki. Helen appeared to be trying to find her way with men for some time only to have a reality check that she at some point had started becoming intimate(not in a romantic way) with Nikki ( a prisoner). This really may have been her first real intimacy with another person whether woman or man. We know she was a feminist because of her interaction with Nikki about putting funiture together. I just think Helen is a fully developed character with all of her(and our) contradictions. That probably is why I love her so much. She seems very real as does Nikki. That may be why I love both of them so much. LOL :hug2

Great points, everyone! It's a pleasure to read this thread.

You know, I think it actually complicates this scene even more (in a good way) if we allow that there may be a little flirting taking place. Reason I say that is all Abzug's points seem spot on -- Helen does desperately want to share what's going on, and Dom is a safe outlet -- but then there is the gut reaction some viewers had to the scene, as well as how Dom interprets it. So maybe it's unintentional, but what's the natural way a (perhaps we can say formerly) hetero woman might interact with a man she wants to confide in? She may have moved on from men internally, but some of the old behaviors may still be there.

And of course there's the constant with Helen: She takes a long time to realize, process and then tell people close to her (Sean, Nikki, Thomas) what she feels. She could've told Dom she wasn't interested, but she didn't -- not until forced to do so -- which could lead viewers to have their doubts about her sexuality, in this scene and others.

Absolutely! Maybe one of the keys to being a cult classic, if you will, is ambiguity in characters and storylines.

I think Scribegrrl was right when she complimented Simone's acting in the Dom/Helen scene because the layers are so incredibly complex. Just a microcosm of the tensions with her sexuality throughout the show.

this whole discussion is very interesting. i'm actually surprised that many people seem to think she wasn't flirting with dom. to me it didn't seem like there was any doubt. all of her behavior seemed very flirty with him. i don't agree that she was uncomfortable, because to me it always seemed like helen felt a lot older than dom and she liked to tease him and nothing ever gave the impression that she would feel like she's in a position of diminished power or authority over him.

the most flirty aspect of the interaction is the conversation. she starts asking him about girlfriends, fer chrissake! i don't think dom is misreading the flirting at all.

now, all that being said, it's also obvious to me that she has no interest in anything romantic with him. her flirting with dom or with any man doesn't diminish her les' cred'. i think flirting can be done as a style of interaction without the intention of trying to start anything. i mean, she has the same sort of flirty interaction with him the first time they go for a drink, back in season 1, when she's firmly ensconced in a relationship with sean.

of course, it's greatly complicated by the fact of her newfound sexuality. i mean, if my girlfriend was being flirty with a guy, but she's been out of the closet for many years, i won't find that problematic. if my newly-out girlfriend is flirting with a guy, that may be a bit different. so i think nikki would be able to tolerate the exact same interaction between H&D a few years down the road, but after just a couple of months where they barely see each other, it's understandably much harder to deal with. helen may say she's not fickle, but nikki has seen her dump her fiance at the alter not so long ago. does that play a role at all?

Microsofty, thanks for your well-thought-out post. I essentially agree with your description of the things a newly-coming-out person grapples with in general. I did want to focus on a few specific things from your post.

First, let me admit to being a hard-core atheist. Second, let me admit that I grew up Jewish, going to temple frequently and attending Hebrew school 3 days a week, so I have a fairly strong religious background (although we were Reform Jews, so of the liberal, not fundamentalist variety). Third, let me add that Hebrew school was the very first place where I was told that being gay was absolutely ok, that there was no moral difference between gay relationships and straight ones. I was 14 and my mother had signed me up for a 2-day sex education workshop run by my temple, and part of the workshop was learning about homosexuality, and hearing gay people talk about being gay. The workshop was very progressive and all value judgments were totally absent. It was a very cool experience and I'm so glad my mom forced me to go.

ANYWAY, that's all background to explain why #3 just doesn't ring true for me as a universal statement, or even as a generalization about what newly-coming-out people go through. I think some people who are brought up in certain Judeo-Christian denominations may feel this way, depending on the value system that their families provided. But it's dangerous to assume that all or most people experience this particular struggle. And by extension it's also a bit of a leap to assume that Helen experienced this.

This is a great point, and I think is particularly interesting in these last few episodes of S2. My personal sense of Helen's circularities is that they really hit her in S3. In S2 to me she has periods of anger towards Nikki, a sense of "Is this woman who I think she is?" but that her doubts don't go so far as to lead her to take any action or make any decisions to try to change the direction of her life away from Nikki or toward heterosexuality. So I don't see it as Helen having certainty and immediately circling back, but instead having a period of certainty mixed with doubts (the end of S2, the start of S3), and then a slow regressive move back towards heterosexuality which happens somewhat imperceptibly during the middle of S3.

Totally. This was something ER explored really well when Kerry was dating Kim. I don't know if I think Bad Girls really delved into this issue, or if it did, certainly only on the very very subtextual level. There's no explicit depiction of Helen struggling with her comfort or lack thereof regarding gay subculture. The only two hints of it are the art room scene (no signposts) which is a bit of a stretch, and then when she enters the club at the end of S3. But again, at the end of S3 Helen has regressed back to heterosexuality and is coming to terms again with being gay, so we can't really use this as evidence that in the second half of S2 she was uncomfortable with gay sub-culture.

Good point--flirting is certainly an age-old technique that women have used to get what they want from men, be it emotional support, help changing a flat tire, or anything in between. But as msalt said, I agree it's not really evidence that Helen still has sexual or romantic interest in men.

This is a really astute observation about Helen. It's definitely her style of communication to not communicate anything emotional until she's forced into it. Which is why her "I love you" statement to Nikki was so powerful--she offered it freely, not because Nikki demanded it. All the times Nikki demanded it, she refrained.

Very interesting question. I'm sure in Nikki's mind it does, although I wonder if it would be any different had Helen been single but straight, or in a relationship but not engaged. Any heterosexual past for Helen made Nikki susceptible to fears that Helen would go back to men, and it made Helen's interactions with Dominic appear to confirm those fears. But I think it's sort of unavoidable--I mean, a person can only provide constancy in a relationship over time, by showing it. Helen doesn't have this opportunity because of the restrictions of her job and Nikki being a prisoner.

Helens interaction with people she likes in general could be read as flirty.I suspect that many of us lesbians have been flirty with men and women and we didn't realize that's how it came off. Fun and friendly to one person, is flirty and I want you to another. I have experienced women flirting with me and I didn't know it until a friend told me after the fact. Usually to late to do anything about it. LOL
I hope this made sense because I have struggled with how to explain it.

I don't think it's a leap at all. Your experience was progressive, but also rare in a religious setting.

It is interesting that Shed didn't include Helen's father's occupation in the show, yet it's almost always the first line when they are describing the character. Back when the creators were outlining her backstory, it must have played a major factor in designing who Helen was. It's a detail that I would dismiss if I had read it once somewhere in a magazine Q&A where Simone created a backstory for herself to help create the character. But that's not the case here.

I'm wondering if we're not also projecting our own experiences and backgrounds onto Helen. For instance, the fact that her father was a minister only tells us that she probably grew up in a religious home. We don't know if it was also a politically conservative home. We also don't know if she has rejected completely the religious principles she learned as a kid, or if she still believes in God, still goes to church, etc.

My instinct of course is that she's a total atheist now and has rejected all of her fathers' value system. I conclude that from her one line about her father not approving of anything she's ever done. Which is a logical leap, I'll admit, and which is also why I'll admit that I'm probably projecting aspects of my own experience and own values onto Helen.

Which is why I recognize that another person watching the show and watching Helen might conclude something different, that she still lives by at least some (or possibly most) of the values of her religion, and that those values were conservative, socially-speaking.

But in reality, all we KNOW is two things:
1. Her father was a minister
2. He doesn't approve of most of her life choices

We don't know anything else. We don't know if Helen currently believes in God, or heaven and hell. We don't know if she EVER believed in any of those things--just because her father may have tried to instill that belief system in her, that doesn't mean she accepted it, even as a young child. In addition, we don't truly know what belief system her father might have tried to instill in her, other than it was a disapproving belief system. So we can't say for sure that she was taught as a kid that homosexuality was wrong (although in fairness I'd probably guess that she was taught this).

That's why I'm saying that Helen's current and former beliefs around religion may have no influence whatsoever on her coming out process. Or they might have a lot of influence. There's really no way to know, which is why many of us seem to be filling in the blanks based on our own experiences and background.

I’ve been slow to spot this debate but have now caught on. I’ve always felt that Helen’s politics are atheist, liberal and feminist whereas I’ve vaguely felt that a Scottish Presbyterian background would be obsessed with sin and very rigid in its views. On the surface, I sense that Helen has moved a pretty long way from her father’s views and the most direct evidence is her obvious impatience with Crystal’s religiosity and the way she sees things in black and white. (The argument about the Guardian article wasn’t just prisoner versus prison governor). However, this influence is unconsciously strong in Helen’s favourite word ‘duty’ and the inevitable description of Helen’s causes as ‘crusades.’ Then again, Nikki has emotionally detached herself from her family while Helen is still hung up, resentful of her father’s rejection of her.
The question as to whether this religious undertow has any negative effect on her ‘coming out’ is the hardest to tackle. In talking to Sean in an early episode about lesbianism in prison , Helen is pretty blasé about it. I struggle which way to go when it comes time to her.
The whole situation is muddied by the fact that Helen is up against institutional disapproval of a prisoner / wing governor relationship.

The Presbyterian Churches' (PC) view on homosexuality in 2000 was as follows:

"The PC is committed to the sanctity of human sexual relationships. We believe God's intent in creation was that male and female would be complementary, that the privilege of sexual expression would be between male and female only, and this expression would be only in the context of marriage. Both heterosexual and homosexual sexual behaviour outside of marriage violates the human spirit and distorts God's intent for men and women."

The last sentence leads me to believe that Helen rejected the views of the church (not necessarily religion in general) as she was in a (hetero)sexual relationship outside of marriage. All I've been trying to argue was that maybe, on some level, Helen's religious upbringing played some role in her internal struggle. We might not have any evidence of this, I do agree, but what we have evidence of is the fact that in the end she chose to reject the teachings of the church (whereas church does not equal God). She certainly did not believe in the end (or ever) that God would condemn her for her decision/choice to love another woman. However, whatever her reasons for thinking/believing so, Helen at some point did not regard her love for Nikki as "normal" (the signposts scene). She needed reassurances and seeked them from Nikki who told her that she was neither normal nor abnormal.

I do seem to recall that my next question might have been discussed previously, but I can't remember what the outcome was. When Helen confessed to Dom that she was in love with another woman, why did she also risk her career by stating explicitly who the other person was if she knew she was exposing herself to severe scrutiny by breaking the rules? Dom has established himself as a honest PO who plays by the rules (for a start he was totally cut up about his feelings for Zandra). Helen's revelation that she was in love with Nikki specifically could so easily have backfired when she revealed this to a colleague. Why didn't she just stop at "it's not a he, it's a she"? What was the significance in the moment to reveal all... "it's Nikki Wade. I beg you not to tell anyone..."?

I think Helen just couldn't help herself and had to say it was Nikki since she had no one to confide in and had been holding it in for so long. By saying it out loud to somebody else maybe finally made it Helen's truth and even more important to her. Yeah?

I am pretty sure abzug has discussed this before but I don't know which boards because I have hopped all over the place trying to get my H/N fix. LOL

I don't necessarily remember discussing this particular issue, but if we did, it would be in the S2E12 episode discussion thread.

My thought at the moment is that Helen needed to tell someone who knew Nikki, because only someone who knew Nikki, who was able to see prisoners as human beings rather than as criminals, would have a chance in hell of understanding why she had fallen in love with someone locked up at HMP Larkhall. So telling some other friend (if she had any) wouldn't have satisfied this need. When she says "I just want you know where I'm coming from" I think she's talking about a broader emotional issue, not just answering the question of why she didn't want to kiss him. She's explaining why she came back to work at Larkhall, why she brings her work home with her each night, why she doesn't have a social life outside of work. And, in particular, why she's totally freaked out right in this moment because Nikki now knows that Dominic is at her house. If all she was trying to explain to Dominic was why she didn't want to kiss him, she could have stopped after "It's not a he, it's a she." So, yeah, it was risky, for sure, but I think that's meant to show us how desperate Helen is for some emotional support. She's been going through this hugely life changing thing all by herself, and now Nikki has abandoned her due to insane jealousy, so she's got no one.

Right, and we know it because it was included. I assume that if it was important enough to mention in a two/three sentence bio, then it must have had some type of long term impact on her psyche in some way. The loss of her mother at a young age would also have a long term effect, which is the other detail they've chosen to give us.

But I totally agree that we all impose our life experiences in our views.

But to play devil's advocate, if it was so important, why wasn't it included in the actual text of the show? Why was it only mentioned in ancillary materials? In the text of the show, we only see Helen reject the values of her family, and reject religious belief.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting Helen's religious background isn't important at all, I'm just wary of the chain of logic which goes something like this:
1. Helen's father was a minister
2. Helen grew up religious
3. People who grow up religious absorb negative views about homosexuality and those remain part of their psyche in a deep-seeded way
4. Helen must therefore be uncomfortable with being gay

My tendency is to look at what Helen says and does to judge:
1. Whether she's uncomfortable with being gay at various junctures during the three seasons of the show (my interpretation: sometimes she is, other times she isn't)
2. What her reasons are for being uncomfortable (my interpretation: her comfort with following rules, having her life path laid out for her, general interalized homophobia etc)

To me, Helen's religious background is much more significant and revealing when we're discussing things like her sense of duty, her discomfort with breaking rules, her strong sense of right and wrong. That's where she seems driven by those deep-seeded Presbyterian values, not when she's grappling with her same-sex desire. Again, that's just to me. :)

To be clear, you're using her annoyance at Crystal to assert the rejecting of religious belief, correct? Because I roll my eyes and groan at Crystal and I'm not agnostic, atheist or anything else with an 'a'.

:)

Well, that, plus her complete absence of any kind of statement of religious belief, observance etc, when other characters DO make statements of their religiosity.

But I agree it's not a particularly strong statement either way, which is why I'm hesitant to use her religious background or beliefs as a way of interpreting her thoughts and feelings. :)

:lol:
Most of the characters live at the prison. They work, study and go to church (or not) there.

We go to Helen's home, but we're not really seeing her live there. I'm not saying that Helen would head to church every Sunday or say grace before eating, but it's more like a snap shot of certain moments rather than watching her routine.

PS I'm totally going to let this go. I was just having fun with ya playing devil's advocate.