Regarding Helen being flirtatious:
It seems to me some of the differences of opinion around this issue may be because no one's tried to define flirtation: we all assume we know what it is when we see it. Like, um, art. Or porn. But maybe not.


1) Some people think Helen flirts with Dominic.
2) Helen flirts with Thomas.
3) Helen flirts with Nikki (ongoing but varying in type & degree: in different registers).
( 4) Helen flirts with Sean, but only when negotiating sex. [Far as I can recall.] Not sure I have anything to say abt that at the moment, other than to note it. Normal established couple behavior is all, perhaps.)


There are at least two different levels of consciousness being portrayed (between items 1 & 3, above). Seems to me it's not quite as simple as conscious vs. unconscious... but I'd say a primary distinction should be drawn, first, between Flirting with Intent vs Flirting as Reflex. (I personally don't think Helen flirts with Dominic. Ever. That's banter. It's not the same thing. But I don't want to get us sidetracked with my opinions versus this Neat-o Theory I've been fiddling with so forgive me that aside for the moment, please.)

So, Helen flirts with Thomas: painful but true, I guess. It is useful as an example because it falls into both categories: it's automatic as well as deliberate. (It just isn't very interesting, as flirting goes.) Helens flirtations with Thomas are laced with ambivalence throughout, however (imo), which is rather interesting, not to mention appropriate. It's competitive, there's an edge to it, a sort of wall around it: there's always something in the nature of a challenge to their exchanges. Maybe I'm missing some nuance because it's straight (heterosexual) flirting, but I think it's more due to Helen's ambivalence; this is territory she knows well, and it's almost, a bit as if she's on autopilot when she does it because she's not sure about where she really wants to go with him. Regardless, however, it's known territory; there will be no surprises here. Not for Helen--& not for the audience either. It lacks a fundamental charge. (Thus with the boring.)


To make the Dominic/Nikki distinction clear: some people think Helen flirts with Dominic. However, if we compare & contrast Helen's interactions with Dominic to those she has with Nikki (certainly those after 1.7 & on), the difference is blindingly apparent: no one is in any doubt as to when Helen is Flirting-flirting with Nikki. No one. So that's where we should start, I'm thinkin': Now that's flirting. A place we can agree on. High-level Flirting with Intent.** So the fact that there's the level of unclarity around her interactions with Dominic that there is, the sorts of disagreements we've seen in various discussions about it, at the very least suggests a difference in intent and degree.

** (Unlike her flirtations with Thomas, H's tone with Nikki in these exchanges is almost invariably affectionate [as opposed to mainly: friendly-but-challenging, as w/T]: Helen and Nikki are both on the same side, understanding the same topic sentence. Again, that assumption is missing in her interactions with Thomas, it seems to me, certainly when she's flirting with him.)


Within the Flirting as Reflex category, there are a number of sub-categories we could suggest or examine. There are the kinds of interactions I'd characterize as automatic (reflex), where you say to yourself, Whoa, did that just pop out of my mouth? Er, woops. Where you realize after the fact either you did mean it... or really hope the other person either didn't notice or is kind enough not to take it 'wrong'--because you didn't 'mean' it. Not at all--or at least, not like that (ie w/sexual intent).

There is a kind of low-level banter (which I personally do not classify as belonging to the concept "flirting" in any way), which some people do interpret as flirting. As opposed to the "whoops" kind of utterances, these are conscious... sort of. To try to be fair to people who feel Helen does flirt with Dominic, consider a comment like I hadn't had you marked down as that cheap. (In my own defense, I had to think for awhile about anything she had said to him that could even be construed as flirtatious. Which either points to my being correct or oblivious. Or both. Or not straight.)

So, 'not cheap'. Tone: casual. It's playful. Intent: she doesn't mean anything by it, she's not romantically or sexually interested in Dominic, period. But it's just ambiguous enough--to Dominic--that we can see from his response it's the first time, perhaps, he himself considers anything extracurricular in terms of his (or her) interest. (If someone had said to Helen: hey, look at Dominic's face, what do you think is going on in his head right now, my guess is she'd have been dismayed, had a Whoops--I didn't mean it--not like that--response. Is she conscious of this? I have to say I really doubt it. So there's still the question of: how deliberate was that statement? how self-aware? & again, I gotta say: not very.)


These subcategories are quite different in quality from flirting with intent, which is what Helen does with Nikki when she gets back from her vacation--I won't tell if you won't. (And how brilliant is that!) And still, Helen's not entirely conscious she's doing this. (If you asked her, in S1 episode 5: were you flirting with that inmate, Helen? ...she would surely deny it--& likely be a bit shocked. Imo. Or cover that reaction with dismissive amusement: What, me? Hardly!) That's part of what's so wonderful about the exchange, what gives us in the audience such a charge: it's bloody interesting, as well as being a giggle.

The point is: even within one of the main classifications (Flirting with Intent), there are gradations. Helen says Do it as a favour? For me? and it's quite easy to assume here that she is aware she's doing... something. Something not quite... Professional, perhaps, in trying to cajole Nikki into considering OU courses. But is it flirting? (A list, I'll have to make a list! A taxonomy of Potentially Flirtatious Helen Phrases. Ooh, what a terrible chore.) Just as interesting to wonder is how we (members of the audience) understand or think of it: does Helen herself view this as flirting (playful/friendly), much less Flirting (personal)? In other words: at this early point in the story, I think it's pretty clear the one thing Helen would not be admitting to herself is that her behavior is anything more than friendly. So there's always this discrepancy to consider; the difference between audience reaction & what a character may be thinking or feeling. That difference particularly marked in many of these instances, which is also... interesting.


Within the Flirting with (express) Intent category, we could compare such exchanges with one after H&N view themselves as a couple--for ex: When I get out, I'm gonna show you a good time. / Oh, I hope so., where there's a high level of sexual innuendo/intent. Again: impossible to miss--or mistake. So for the people who feel strongly that Helen was 'flirting' with Dominic, I'd have to say I think that could only be considered Flirting as Reflex, at the very outside, if they still want to view it as such: because when compared to this...? Talkin bout a whole nuther animal.


Ok, I'll stop there to catch my breath. I just wanted to see if it was possible to create a space for multiple levels of interpretation: both within a character's head; in terms of how other characters might view them or their actions or words; and for the audience as well. Those things are often all different--not just with this issue of course but across the board. And I think it's possible to look at stuff from those many angles even though we all, as audience, have wide variations in how, in this case, we might view the idea & practice of flirting--what it is, how it does.


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Final caveat: I view the question of 'manipulation' as entirely separate, myself. Flirtation, iow, isn't inherently any more or less manipulative than any other behavior. To be manipulated doesn't require that the person getting manipulated is unaware of it, but it does suggest they're powerless in the face of said manipulation. People can be manipulated by a sense of guilt--or duty, for that matter. Perhaps they can be manipulated, as well, by their own sense of responsibility, to pick a fairly neutral term (though I'm not actually sure that's what responsibility is or should be about). Regardless, they're not puppets. So the idea that there's something machiavellian about Helen's flirtation--that it's invariably Conscious, a chosen act, wholly deliberate, that she's that on top of what she's doing all the time--doesn't seem consistent with the many levels of awareness we get to view within this complicated character (or consistent with how aware anyone in RL is, in general, for that matter).

In the (mainly) negative example which has come up in the past, & was recently brought up in the Series 3, ep 6 thread: whether or not Helen was flirting, being manipulative, or just misjudged her attempt to engage Nikki's help with Pam in her initial approach (and yes, she certainly could have just asked), Nikki's no tool. She's not powerless, she's not stupid or unaware, and she's free to choose whether or not to help Helen. In response to Helen's opening gambit, Nikki directly addresses her own concerns seriously; Helen answers, they have a Talk... & Nikki decides to help--after articulating her own reservations, fears, and priorities. So all I'm saying is, it's not as if, problematic as this example may be, Nikki's so whipped she can only follow like a creature from a zombie movie, struck dumb by the power of Helen-Flirt: quite the contrary, as the episode shows us at some length; she doesn't respond to it & yet does respond to the content of Helen's request, in her own way, after making sure her concerns have been heard.

As well, a case can be made for Helen's approach being as uneven as it is (to me it also seems pretty clear Helen herself is uncomfortable with it) because Helen knows she's about to ask for something above & beyond the usual; that she's making a tricky decision here, to bring Pam back on to the wing; and also because she senses what Nikki's response to this request is likely to be. Audience members might judge and find fault with Helen's approach; interestingly, Nikki does not seem to do so. She goes right for the heart of the matter & disregards the window-dressing Helen's trying to put on it. The approach--whatever you want to call it--isn't the issue, for Nikki. (I think I'll save the separate issues of Nikki's flirting for another time; it brings up a different set of questions.)


So perhaps we could add another sub-category: Utilitarian Flirting. This may be the sub-category of (non-sexual) Flirting with Intent that people find most troubling. The reason it's problematic is that it sends a mixed message, of mixed intent from the sender. Unintentional Utilitarian Flirting (as some people see it) with Dominic--to encourage him to stay in the job--leads to Dominic considering whether he has a shot at getting together with Helen. Intentional Utilitarian Flirting with Nikki upsets or angers viewers, because it's uncalled for and not emotionally direct (I'm nervous about this thing I'm doing but I feel I have to ask for your help [as if, heaven forfend, our girls would ever talk that way, which might make great couples therapy but really bad dialog]). Utilitarian Flirting mixes what should be high art (flirting with sexual intent) with porn (flirting as means to an end: to achieve a non-related goal, something tangential to the actual flirting); which, I'll risk generalizing... isn't to most people's taste.

I like this distinction, it seems very useful. I've always thought that flirting with men comes very easily to Helen. It's how she interacts with them when she can. Not Fenner and Stubberfield, obviously, but Thomas and (arguably) Dominic. One thought that occurred to me when reading this is that I think Helen's interactions with Dominic DO have intent. But maybe they're not flirting. Maybe she's just charming him for lack of a better word.

Do you mean boring for the audience or boring for Helen? Because I have to admit to being one of those people who actually enjoys Helen and Thomas together (when viewed knowing Helen will come to her senses). I like that they're so not fraught, particularly early on. It gives me a sense of how Helen would be with Nikki on the outside, once they're settled.

Can I go on the record to say that I think Helen starts flirting with Nikki pretty clearly in S1E6, when she gives her Sophie's Choice and they talk in the library about how Nikki is sure she's a lesbian.

Good point. But on the other hand, flirting is always a matter of degree, and people always flirt and mean it a lot, and also flirt and don't mean it much at all. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's all not flirting. Or is flirting. Shit, too many negatives, but you know what I mean.

What about when Helen reacts to Dominic's surprise that she's drinking a pint rather than a half pint in the bar? That interaction is one of the ones that feels like flirting to me.

Ah, well, now we might be getting down to the source of the disagreement! I don't agree that she "doesn't mean anything by it" but I do agree that she's not "romantically or sexually interested in Dominic." To me, these are two different things. She DOES mean something by it, because she's trying to charm Dominic to keep him as an ally, to keep him working at Larkhall (in the scene at the bar, for instance). She's not expressing sexual or romantic interest, but she IS expressing interest, and she's using a flirtatious style (in my opinion) to communicate that interest to Dominic. It's not heavy-handed. It's light, it comes naturally and easily to Helen, and she knows Dominic won't misinterpret because she's with Sean, and Dominic is aware of that. And in S1, she's right in her calculations. Dominic doesn't make a move on Helen until S2, when (from his perspective) she's been single for ages.

Ah, again, I see this differently. I mean, yes, she would have been dismayed if she had thought Dominic was sitting there thinking "I really want to date Helen and I think she wants to date me." But I don't think that's what Dominic is thinking. I think Dominic is thinking something more general and vague like "Gee, Helen is very compelling. I really like her a lot. I think she's such a good boss and such a good Wing Governor. I like how much she seems to value me." And Helen WANTS him to be thinking stuff like that. So I think she'd be pleased if she saw what was going on in Dominic's head--it's exactly what she's trying to evoke.

I think this is one of those areas where the audience (and Nikki) know more than Helen. So in my view it's definitive: Helen IS flirting with Nikki. But I'd agree that Helen isn't aware of it, because her flirting is inspired by desire which is (at this moment) still completely unconscious. I also gotta wonder, what goes through a straight woman's head when she says to a lesbian "Will you do it as a favor to me?" or whatever the exact line is? That sentence demonstrates her awareness that she's got Nikki around her little finger--does she really think that kind of devotion is possible between two straight women?

I've always been of the opinion that Helen ratchets up the charm when she wants something from someone. Be it Dominic, or Nikki, or Thomas, etc. I don't consider that manipulation, but I do consider it a management style, with conscious intention behind it. What Helen probably isn't aware of (with Nikki and Dom in S1, and early on with Thomas in S3) is how much her charm turns others on. I don't think she's aware of quite how powerful a tool it is, and how much she can make people really fall in love with her by using it.

Excellent points, and I completely agree with you here.

I think this is what I've been trying to get at by using the word "charm" because it's less loaded than the word "flirt." I don't know that I agree that it's not emotionally direct though. I think in all the cases we're discussing, Helen's intentions are pretty clear. Even with Dominic, although she flirts, I think she's clear that she's not interested. With Nikki and Thomas, she IS interested, even if she's not consciously aware of it, so again, no mixed message, imo.

Oooh, LOVE this image!

Thanks for that ekny and abzug. Indeed a lot to chew over. Reading this, I was just wondering about Helen's naivety. It has often been said how naive Helen sometimes is (and SL said same about the character). How much of her "flirting" might just be attributed to her naivety - if at all? I'm not to sure how to label this anymore, but for example her interaction with Nikki in the library. Was that naive Helen or flirting Helen or charming Helen or a combination of all three? I don't know, but for me it leans more towards naivety - she was really interested to know about lesbianism in general and not Nikki in particular. To me it came across as a sort of general question to ask a lesbian that you're now sort of comfortable with and with whom you can assume that they won't take offence. I never took that particular scene as Helen flirting with Nikki, but I'm open to persuasion. I also think that another point worth considering is to determine at what point exactly did Helen sway Nikki to her side - i.e. when was she certain that Nikki was now an ally? Any friendly gestures and suggestive comments after that point would, i.m.o., be Helen flirting with Nikki. Prior to that Helen's attention was focused on gaining Nikki's trust, having her as an ally amongst the inmates.

Flirting with Dom. Difficult one. Again she might just have been naive to some extent - but just how naive can an adult woman be when it comes to such interactions with an adult man? The one particular scene that has always bothered me was the one where Dom paid her the surprise visit and was rambling on about the women he dates. He then turned his attention to Helen and said something along the lines that she only dated posh men with their own businesses. Helen's response: Past tense. Now either that was a simple wordplay or suggestion towards her relationship with Nikki (meaning to say I don't date men at all anymore) OR she was playing Dom to some extent. Again, for me, it boils down to the intent behind the action. And it's the intent that I don't always get.

Yes, I agree with that. I think she just wants to win one for the prison service & keep him at work: in short, that her motivations here are pretty much exactly as she presents them to Dominic.

Wow. That's incredibly interesting &... different. Ok, I will honestly try to change my worldview & look at them this way, next time I see 'em. Seriously.

I think you mean: different people do it differently. And it can be really confusing to look at & talk about?! :D Anyway, I was focusing mainly on degree. You know, like a bell curve of flirting, with not-flirting at one flat side &--whatever the opposite of not-flirting would be--on the other. But you've made a really good case for also arguing in favor of Helen's personality being consistent, as well, by broadening the definition--or maybe I should say, loosening the definition around 'flirting' with a word like "charming". Which tactic I also definitely agree with.

What, it's a pint, I'm off dooee--that one?? I think it might be good to let you address it first, then, since you think it's flirting. Never would've occurred to me. I'm like: huh?

Huh. I thought you'd been more or less agreeing up til this moment. ;)

I'd said that would be consistent with a non-judgmental take on the other classification I added at the very end: Utilitarian Flirting. Which you feel is fine because it's stylistically consistent with who Helen is, & is not emotionally dishonest:

I actually am quite in agreement with this assessment, I have no quarrel with it & think it's very astute.

Honestly? That's what I think too, but was trying to bend over backwards to be fair to the imaginary "Helen flirts with Dominic" faction in my head.

Absolutely.

Again, agreed.

:lol1 Uh huh. I'm sure they'll be explaining it sometime real soon.

Aren't they remarkable?

I think perhaps one of the reasons people find it disturbing when she attempts to use it with Nikki--because let's be fair, it's a pretty rare instance, far as I can see--is that whereas this might be SOP between men & women, with certain understandings about it being a fairly pleasant operating procedure... there's no reason to think another woman would necessarily take to being treated thus. Certainly not one who's in your care as a prisoner, anyway.

I think that's a really good & very useful distinction.

I think it may well be a matter of personal taste. Iow, if you think flirting is (or should) only about connecting in an intentional, sexualized way, then anything outside of that is going to seem at the least a bit beside the point. If you think it does (or should) encompass a broader arena, including just a lower-key playful thing, then maybe one's tolerance of how it's used, or towards what end (or not end) would be different?

:) Thanks.

Hi microsofty:

I think Nikki was the one doing the flirting through most of that scene, not Helen--and agree that Helen was interested, genuinely, in asking the questions she needed to ask (for whatever reasons we can debate endlessly. or not. :D ) ...but she would expressly *not* have risked flirting when asking (or almost-asking) such personal questions.

As for Dominic, I never took Helen's line "past tense" to mean anything other than literally that: I dateD men, past tense. It's not until the words are out of her mouth she realizes that Dominic has no context for this, no reason to think she meant ...but now I date women--and that seems (to me) clearly what prompts her, much as anything, to start making her confession. Then once she does it, she can't shut up. You know how it is when you've had something bottled up & then suddenly you have a chance to talk about it. ;) --e

You know, I think you may be right on this one! I've always included it with all the other Helen-flirty scenes in this episode, but really it's not, as you point out. It's her subconscious getting the better of her and finally asking that question, but Nikki's the one who amps up the sexual tension in the interaction.

I agree with your logic here, and my interpretation has always been that Helen swayed Nikki to her side in S1E5 when she lets Nikki off with a warning after attacking Shell. And Helen knows this is when she's cracked Nikki--you can see the tiny satisfied grin on her face at the end of the scene. So that's why I've always felt S1E6 is the Helen-Nikki flirting episode, and I do categorize it as flirting, because of Helen's certainty of Nikki, and yet her continued fertilizing of the relationship.

Not just that different people do it differently, but that the same person (say, Helen) might flirt with one person (say, Nikki) and really mean it, and also flirt with another person (say, Dominic) and not really mean it. But yeah, it can be really confusing to look at and talk about. :-)

I don't have a lot to say about it, but Helen's big smile and sort of laugh in that moment, and the sparkle in her eye feels flirtatious to me. She's not joking with him about being a big drinker like she's one of the guys. She's (in my read) trying to get him to see her in a different light--as a big drinker, a partier, not an uptight boss.

Excellent point. And I think plays in to the issue of straight-woman-crazy-denial-thought-process which you were just writing about in your post. Because as a lesbian, the times I've felt most flirted-with and used by another woman was when it was a straight girl doing it. So I think for us lesbian viewers watching Nikki and Helen, those red warning flags automatically go up.

I definitely think it can/should encompass a broader arena. I'm really friendly with guys at work. I don't know if I'd call it flirting, but maybe it veers that way sometimes. But it's warm and friendly, it creates a more collegial work environment, and it's a way for them to not feel like I'm a domineering woman bossing them around. Which I know they feel a lot of the time no matter what I do. :)

That's really interesting, about interacting with men in a work situation. I think I'd do just the opposite; since I only deal with them in a retailer/customer way, there's no reason to cater to them outside that, so I don't have to consider other approaches or make those choices. That said, I wouldn't because I just wouldn't be comfortable with it.

This is OT, and at the risk of digressing into a personal anecdote... I had a curious & rather interesting interaction with a male friend who was meeting me at my house for TV one evening a few years back; I was coming home at the same time he was arriving, and he offered to carry my bike up the back steps for me. So I thought, oh sigh, Very Well. So he carried it up, & the way he did it--though it might have made sense for him, as being a guy, he was much taller--looked incredibly inefficient; he hoisted the whole thing up on his shoulder. Completely unnecessary. I didn't follow him up. I thought about it (well, that was stupid), and said: I have a different way of carrying the bike up--do you want me to show you? I waited for him to answer, and he thought about it and said yeah, sure. So I got the bike & carried it back down, then took it upstairs my way, which is to hoist it by the bottom part of the frame, near the chain, where the frame angles up; I just grab it with one hand & lean it against my body. So he watched & nodded & I took the bike in. And that was it, the whole interaction. And after another ten minutes or so he started raving about this whole miraculous angst-free Practical Thing lesbians did: he'd never had such a totally uncomplicated conversation with a woman in his life, there was no blame, no weirdness or judgment or hidden expectations or You Did It Wrong, Do It My Way--just a regular old question / wait for response / answer, he'd never had a single conversation with either of his previous wives that had been quite so emotionally clean. I felt like saying, ok, I don't deserve ALL that praise because your exes are your exes, it's really just that I have no investment whatever in whether you carry the bike up the stairs in a stupid way or not, but didn't want to hurt his feelings since he was being all revelation-guy (or, I suppose, reveal myself to the poor bloke mid-epiphany as yet another judgmental blame-ridden harpy). Still, it was a pretty surprising, kind of unexpected learning experience in terms of hearing what They seem to actually want (if they're grownups), in terms of talking to women, rather than, I suppose, spending a lifetime as a straight woman agonizing over how Men Don't Understand Us or something. Poor buggers. Obviously they just need to hang out with more dykes.

Kind of the categorical opposite of what we've been discussing in this thread, iow. :D

(The other very odd thing is, on the few occasions I've been reminded of this anecdote in talking to straight women, they all get it right away, practically before I'm done talking, & seem to also feel thunderstruck by its obviousness. I seem to have missed my calling, arbitrating between the sexes. Too bad it would bore me to death.)

How strange--I hoist my bike onto my shoulder. I find that much easier than grabbing the bottom of the frame and leaning it against my body. But then I have to carry the darn thing up 4 flights of stairs, so I need to really do as much vertical weight-bearing as possible, rather than the kind of indirect weight-bearing you're describing. :)

Stranger still that you 2 are hoisting bikes anywhere! :D People travelling on bikes is just not a common sight back home - in part due to the topography of the land (up and down, up and down), but mostly it is just not safe to do so - there's the criminal element and there's the traffic element - drivers just don't take cognisance of cyclists.

Yeah, that's definitely a problem in NYC as well. Not the hills, but the crazy drivers. I usually feel like I'm risking my life when I get on my bike and ride it in the streets of NYC.

:huh: abzug, are you flirting with me? :)

And here I thought I was being so obvious! I should take lessons from Helen, eh?

Nice thread topic – interesting and entirely appropriate: “Flirting with Intent vs Flirting as Reflex.” Important distinction, I think. And I agree – “FWI” is not the same as banter, or ‘playfulness,’ and that it can be misinterpreted by...the flirtee?? (for lack of a better word). I also agree there are gradations to flirting – it’s all a very ambiguous, nuanced area. Nor do I think Helen ever really flirted with Dominick.

Yep. Completely agree. And in the interest of full disclosure – I can be a notorious flirt in RL. Sometimes with Intent – more often, just playfulness/friendliness/whatever. And yes, I even flirt at times with men, usually when I want something (something small – fast service in a store/bar, seat on the subway, help w/carrying something, etc.) Yeah, I’m shameless. Whatev.

But it’s more a way of... engaging people. As you said, "casual, playful." Sometimes it's getting people to relax, a way to put them at ease (not necessarily for nefarious or sexual reasons) – people respond to a smile, something friendly or funny, whatever. So I can be like Helen in that way, when I want, except I think I'm much more aware of it.

Totally agree Nikki’s not a tool. And heh – NOT a zombie :D My main issue with how Helen approached her was that it was SO manipulative & deliberate: she wanted Nikki’s help, and instead of just asking her, prefaced it with a big, bright, flirty smile. It resonated so strongly for me b/c of Nikki's reaction: she was so happy to see Helen - happy b/c she thought Helen was happy to see her as well, and then it turns out she only wants her help. The disappointment was all over Nikki’s face. And like I said, Helen’s flirting was totally unnecessary – we all know Nikki would do anything for her.

It’s inherently unfair because: Nikki still has strong feelings for Helen and Helen’s the one who put the relationship on hold; Nikki’s the inmate, Helen’s the screw. In both cases, Helen’s got the power. It’s not about Nikki being “whipped” – it’s simply, playing on someone’s feelings when the relationship is inherently unequal.

And unlike Helen’s early “Flirting by Reflex,” this one was ENTIRELY deliberate – she consciously made a decision to approach Nikki that way, knowing how Nikki feels about her, and it just didn’t sit well with me.

I disagree with this. It might not be THE issue for Nikki, but Helen’s “approach” clearly registered in her psyche and on her face. Nikki didn’t make a big deal out of it, but if you watch the scene again, watch how Nikki goes from smiling back at Helen to looking disappointed when she realizes what’s going on. It seems obvious Nikki knew she was being played (that she ignored it is another issue).

To continue with that scene in 3.6 – after Helen approaches Nikki, flirting cranked to an order of magnitude of gajillion, Nikki says that Pam is “the scary one.” Helen: “So you agree with Jim Fenner, then?”

That is so seriously beyond lame. And unfair, comparing Nikki to Fenner (and knowing how Nikki would feel about that). Sorry, but I find Helen completely manipulative in this scene. And when Nikki tells her she cares about her, Helen asks her to give Pam a chance, then just leaves. I can’t read this as anything but cold calculation on Helen’s part, Nikki's feelings be damned. I don't care if Helen's greater goal is to help Pam.



btw, we probably won’t ever agree on this, ekny, but that’s ok. :)

OK, I went back and watched this scene with your interpretation in mind, and I noticed some interesting things.
1. At first Nikki is happy to see Helen, totally unconflicted. Even when she knows that Helen has come to ask her for a favor.
2. The first hint of negativity on Nikki's face comes once Nikki knows what the favor is.
So this leads me to conclude Nikki didn't mind Helen's initial approach, nor the fact that Helen wanted a favor. She did, however, disagree with the favor, and didn't want to do it.

Then, at the end of the scene, after Helen makes that Jim Fenner comment, the two of them exchange looks. It's after all the dialogue is over. Helen looks pointedly at Nikki, and Nikki gets this look as if she knows/realizes that if she doesn't smile and do what Helen wants, Helen won't approach her with that interest and warmth. It's just a hint of this, like a sense of grudgingness from Nikki as she smiles affectionately at Helen. Like, an awareness that Helen won't ever be convinced, won't ever let her win an argument, won't ever relinquish control.

Again, it's just a tiny flicker of this that I see under the surface, but I agree it's there.

Heh – reading your post made me go back and watch the scene again. And I noticed stuff that didn’t register for me before, at least not consciously.

You’re right that Nikki didn’t mind Helen bringing the flirty for a favor - it’s definitely the nature of the favor that puts Nikki off. Helen smiles and says, “Nikki, can I ask you a favor?” Nikki smiles back and says, “yeah?” It’s not until Helen says, “can you meet Pam Jolly and take her to lunch?” that Nikki's like 'pffft.'

Something else interesting about the scene - how Helen prepares herself for it, how she... musters up that huge smile. She’s not smiling when she first goes to the cell - she's serious, as if she’s mulling it all over. She smiles a little after she knocks on the door, but it’s not until she steps inside, walks up to her, and actually says, “Nikki” that she busts out the ginormous grin. And that felt disingenuous to me, which is why I called it “manipulative” (tho disingenuous might be a better descriptor). Her smile doesn’t seem real or genuine at all.

It’s after the Fenner comment, that Nikki’s face really registers... the annoyance? Upset-ness? I’m not sure what to call it. But the Fenner comparison clearly bugs her (and well it should). It's a hurtful thing for Helen to say, IMO.

I also agree about the “grudginess” sense from Nikki at the end. I think they both know that Nikki ‘gave in’ to Helen and that she’ll probably always give in to Helen, and that’s part of what kicks up the “power imbalance” thing for me. Considered in context: Helen's the one to end the relationship AND she's Nikki's jailer, this kind of stuff really resonates when I see it. Heh – or when I think I see it.

I'm hypersensitive to this between them, I admit it, and it’s often small, very subtle hints like these – facial clues, body language, etc – that trigger it for me. And it's even more pathetic that I probably hold it against Helen more than Nikki does!


Ok, I don’t *really* hold it against her, but it's the "Helen characteristic" that bugs me the most!

I've looked at this again, & really don't see some of the conclusions or speculations you guys have come up with... there's two things going on here, discussions about both the verbal meanings of this conversation, & the nonverbal.

Helen's last line of dialogue is: Just... give her a chance. She looks tired, & to me, this doesn't sound like a command; her delivery makes it into a plea. After it (the nonverbal stuff), what I see is Helen reading Nikki, waiting for her final word--I don't see manipulation. Her expression doesn't shift until the last few frames--as if in response to Nikki's expression. We cut to Nikki, who's responding to all of this. She looks down, a sort of physical sigh, then away as she makes her decision, and her look back at Helen seems to me a mix of: alright, I'll do it for you, as a personal favor, and because it's you. I don't see any 'meta' level of things that suggests Nikki feels like, if she doesn't say Yes here, Helen won't be her gf any more, nothing like that--and I don't see anything like that coming from Helen. (Those things seem to me elements outside the specifics of this scene. And hiya metasin, yep, we can agree to disagree. ;) ) My interpretation of that particular moment is that it appears wholly personal--not 'about' what they've just been discussing: it takes those things into account, but they both look/go beyond it, to the connection they both share. (And perhaps even: that 'these sorts' of disagreements will continue to be a feature of their dynamic, in Larkhall & maybe beyond.) Helen acknowledges both of these things (the decision and the connection) nonverbally, then turns to leave. And Nikki looks exasperated, imo because she still doesn't agree with this course of action, & it worries her personally, and for Helen's sake as well.


Aside: Helen's smile has an element of fear. Childhood, perhaps. Or: fear of being turned down. One of the things Helen can't change or influence about Nikki in any way is that Nikki's comfortable with what's going on emotionally (I don't mean at all times, I mean, in general); this is territory she's familiar with. Nikki's even comfortable w/being rejected as a woman. But this is all strange to Helen, all new.

Second aside, even more minor but maybe worth wondering about: Nikki's a lot taller than Helen, & there's a deep reflex in Helen that's probably always going to resort to whatever stratagem has worked in the past if she's feeling fearful. (I think it's incredibly unnecessary to say, but: obviously--not physically fearful of Nikki, ever. There's no place in the story for that, it's completely off the table.) But there are no inexplicable exchanges with people taller than Helen, no exchanges that aren't always going to be a little fraught on this level: the fact that she's short is a constant in her life, though how she deals with it will vary to some extent, according to situation. In Fenner's case there's always an external explanation because he comes out swinging. You can't ignore physical disparity or familiarity with the emotional terrain it brings into play. Helen's smile is nervous & supplicatory. If she were to ask Dominic to do something, she wouldn't have to smile. (On this level of which I'm speaking: purely physical--height--it's nothing to do with status, jobs, any of that.) Of Nikki, she's asking a favor above & beyond, asking Nikki to act somewhere between inmate and staff. When this stuff happens--uncertainty around an interaction with a much bigger person--other stuff will always be evoked for Helen. Asking questions of her father; dealing with men at university... my simple point is: because Nikki's that much taller, a few of those neurons will always be firing. If your whole being is engaged with something, you bring along all your baggage whenever you do engage with that thing or person. In the real world you don't discount height at all. In the fictional world people tend to overlook it.


Last... metasin & Abzug, I have to disagree with your take(s) on the latter parts of this interaction. First, regarding Nikki's reaction to Helen's statement ('So you agree with Jim Fenner then'), it's really unfair to Helen. Like the later scene when Nikki strikes out at Pam bec of the fire ('I warned you not to put that fat headcase up here'), it's necessary to consider what Helen is reacting to (which is always Nikki: this is a totally two-sided dynamic). What Nikki says is, 'She's a scary one.' What Helen's response ('So you agree with Jim Fenner then') means is: you have prejudged Pam without even trying to think of her as a human being. She's not comparing Nikki to Fenner, she's comparing their reactions: short of dumping cold water over Nikki's head, Helen's found the most polite possible way of saying: you're being a bigot. (A thing we might expect Nikki, of all characters, to know better than to do.) Here--and later--it's the same dynamic around Pam, repeated. The thing Nikki has to accommodate herself to & that she consistently resists doing, is realizing that she's just one inmate among many when Helen's trying to do her job. Helen's there to help whoever needs help. And she's totally unapologetic about that, she's very clear on her goals ('I care. Some people don't like that.' / 'Perhaps you care too much. Is that possible, Miss Stewart?' /'I don't believe it is. Now what's your point?') Helen will use whatever resources are available to give people the help they need--and in this case, the best resource is Nikki, precisely because of her status with the other cons. Helen wants her to protect the kid on the playground everyone else is cruel to, and that's going to cost Nikki a bit status-wise, short-term--it's reasonable to think Helen's aware of it, it's one element among many that accounts for her discomfort with the whole interaction--not because she's a dummy and doesn't realize what's she's asking but because she's bright & does--and it's also reasonable to assume this aspect of Helen's request is also immediately apparent to Nikki. The rest of the conversation is Helen pleading with Nikki to try to understand why this is necessary: she tries to make a case for Pam by explaining the specifics of Pam's situation, her human need. Nikki's fears may or may not be justified (Pam is mentally ill & is possibly dangerous), but her response to them wasn't worthy of her. So Nikki concedes the point not because of a power imbalance or because Helen's asking her to go beyond her usual in an effort to help Pam--those dynamics are ongoing, and the nuances of these things play out in their nonverbal interactions throughout this exchange, as they will continue to do--but because in this instance, Nikki was wrong.

First off, let me say how thrilled I am that these boards are still active. I have read some magnificent posts recently, and am trying to find my way around the messages ("and Nikki is the bad girl")
... and also around quoting previous posts!
Which is all my way of saying, please forgive the newbieness techiewise, hopefully there will be some content...

Regarding who was flirting with whom in the library scene, I would say, definitely both. This scene is *after* Helen has introduced the possibility of Nikki's further studies, and done the "I'd like you to think about it. Please? As a favour to me?" I think the classifications ekny has demarcated are wonderful, but for me, this scene just screams "c__t-tease." (I'm not sure if I can use the word here, but it's always how I think of season 1 Helen: not in a bad way, but she is primo material in that regard.) How is Nikki possibly supposed to interpret this scene, its import, Helen's look accompanying the words, "as a favour to me", but to think it's all systems go with Helen?

So when we have the library scene, it is Helen who seeks Nikki out to (again) comment favourably on Nikki's choice of reading matter. Nikki's reply -- "'*Juliet* and Juliet' would be more my cup of tea" -- doesn't require any response deeper than, "[chuckle chuckle] Good one, Nikki!" It is *Helen* who chooses to make something of this by following Nikki. She might not be conscious of her desire or intentions, but she would have to be pretty thick not to realise she has registered discomfort at Nikki's comment; that she is taking (what I take to be) Nikki's possibly throwaway comment *personally*. And what does she do immediately upon registering such discomfort? Follow Nikki and ask if she has "never been interested in men". I'm sure she is genuinely interested in Nikki's story and perspective, but why go there when you have just taken Nikki's more general statement about being a lesbian ("*Juliet* and Juliet") as a comment about Helen's relationship to Nikki?

The way that Nikki turns this around on Helen is really magnificent; it's a form of subversive mimicry. When she tells Helen, "You should give it a go some time. You don't know what you're missing," -- as she hands her the book and passes her by strutting out of the room (ie, "*This* is what you're missing!") -- she is neatly picking up Helen's own statements and reflecting them. Helen has just asked if Nikki has ever been interested in men, and how she can know she is not attracted to them if she hasn't, um, had sex with one. So Nikki's retort sharply twists that back to Helen; it's flirting but in a very clever manner and I think Helen feels somewhat one-upped by Nikki's obvious skills in the flirting department... when she chooses to do so, that is, other than as a default or covert pattern. She is well and truly called out by Nikki in that scene, and I think that "flavours" (as Nikki terms it) every subsequent interaction between them.

So when we have the after-class and potting shed scenes, Helen knows exactly what is going on. She wants to continue with the vague and safe interactions: "not that it's any of your business actually", "I really don't *know* but I certainly don't have to explain myself to you", "for some odd reason...", "what the hell is this about?", "if I knew I wouldn't be asking you, would I?" Every one a winner, *every* statement a denial, a disavowal! It's almost too cheap a shot to say methinks the lady doth protest too much, especially when Nikki has already (in this scene itself) called her out: "Then why are you telling me?" And Helen can't answer / responds that she doesn't know because it would give the game away. Helen might be naive, but I consider her responses to be Flirting of the Outrageous variety: she keeps digging digging digging when she knew what the deal was, or she wouldn't have followed Nikki to the potting shed in the first place. For me, Nikki's response is actually a reasonable one to Outrageous Flirting; we've seen her skill in turning the flirt tables on Helen, and the pointy end of the subversive mimicry stick is a sharp one indeed.

[QUOTE][I][/I]

I hope you don't think I saw anything like that either! The point I was making was that Nikki was grudgingly playing her role in the relationship, which is to support her ambitious, occasionally-controlling girlfriend. She's not happy about it in this case, but she's going along with it because she loves Helen and Helen loves her. That downward look and tiny grin make me think that Nikki is saying to herself something along the lines of "Yeah, I'm totally whipped, I don't even know why I try to push back sometimes."

I didn't understand where you were going with this height thing. I'm really short (way shorter than Helen) and I don't identify with any of the things I understood you as saying about people who are short and how they manage their interactions with those around them who may be taller.

I'm not sure how you read my post, because in this last paragraph, I agree with everything you say. I hope my explanation above clarified what I was trying to explain in that last moment in the scene.

OK, well, here I have to disagree with you. :) Nikki was "wrong"? How was she wrong? In sharing her fears and concerns about Helen's strategy? In communicating that she doesn't want to do every little thing Helen asks her to do? I don't think Nikki did anything wrong in this scene. And in fact, her concerns about the dangers of having Pam on the wing were justified: Pam wasn't able to conduct herself among the regular inmate population. Even with Nikki's help. So I'm not sure how Nikki was "wrong" other than in taking offense at Helen comparing her to Jim--which by any stretch of the imagination was a hostile thing for Helen to say, so if Nikki felt a tiny bit attacked in that one moment, then rightly so. Also, just to be clear, I'm not addressing the post-fire scene, because I think that's beyond the scope of this discussion on Helen's flirtatious style in approaching Nikki.

Yay! Me too (as if it wasn't obvious) and also glad that new people are finding us!

Totally! This is one of the things I actually enjoyed about S1, the fact that Helen is so aggressive in her pursuit of Nikki. Even if at this stage she's just a tease, it's still a pleasure to watch. :)

I couldn't agree more. And very well put.

I understood your take on things, & sympathized or agreed with what you were saying pretty much across the board--sorry if I generalized too much in the last reply abt my level of disagreement--with the exception of this sentence--

which I felt... was a bit too all-encompassing. So that colored my response, I think. I mean, we see in this very episode that Helen does, if not 'let [Nikki] win an argument', both apologize and cede the larger point Nikki was trying to make, at the end of the ep. They both make mistakes; they both apologize. Couples have to learn how to have fights constructively, how to disagree--that's going to be hard work for both of these characters, but I think despite how tricky this scene (and episode) is that way, it shows them making real progress in terms of learning how to read each other.

I'll just bag it for now I think, I didn't express myself well. I was just trying to say that's in there too, and it's always there. One of the ways Helen deals with her height is to get right up in people's faces, she violates both norms of European physical-proximity (unspoken) rules as I understand them--she's in far closer to Fenner most of the time than even American space-rules suggest are comfortable, & Europe's much wider... isn't it?? (except in elevators & stuff... I might be mixing them up, I'm on my 9th ibuprofin today & it's only 4pm so... but the point is, she's in CLOSE--I mean, would you want to get that close to the man for any reason?)--and she's aggressive about it. Usually. It's when she's not aggressive that she seems uncertain (to me). About how to deal with that element of the interaction. Dunno if any of that's clearer. All the really short people I've known--this was also true of the roommates I had in college--were consistent with this sort of behavior, though details varied: for example, the women I knew all sort of walked very heavily, even though they were small. A sort of I'm-here, don't-ignore-me quality to it. I don't think I have some weird bias, I'm just average height, but it's totally possible I'm just wrong across the board. Dunno. I'm not very attached to this & will, as I said, drop it now. And definitely nothing personal & no offense meant.


As for Nikki being wrong: I do not mean her concerns are wrong--as we see, they are partially realized in this very episode. Either about Pam or Helen. I mean, her initial, knee-jerk response to Pam, here AND later--she's a scary, fat nutjob--are morally not worthy of her (yes, that means "wrong" in my book), and in the case of both of the contested Helen-comments (You agree with Jim Fenner/ Everyone's a suspect), it is (in my view) these Nikki-comments/reactions (around the same issue each time), that trigger Helen to react as she does. Nikki shows a basic lack of human empathy here. Sorry, but I don't know what else to call it. I can still make excuses for her: she's the one in prison, she's the one who has to watch out for her own ass & other people's when someone lets a potential hazard like Pam onto the floor, on & on. But that doesn't excuse the ugliness of her language or her bias. How many people think, of Nikki: ooh, big scary killer dyke? Stay away from her, yeuch. So... how's that different from Nikki's response to Pam?

Yeah, I knew as I wrote it that I was stating things too emphatically here, but I was worried I wouldn't communicate my point otherwise. Clearly I went too far in my exageration for effect!

I mean, we see in this very episode that Helen does, if not 'let [Nikki] win an argument', both apologize and cede the larger point Nikki was trying to make, at the end of the ep. They both make mistakes; they both apologize. Couples have to learn how to have fights constructively, how to disagree--that's going to be hard work for both of these characters, but I think despite how tricky this scene (and episode) is that way, it shows them making real progress in terms of learning how to read each other.

Oh, none taken, not now and not before. It's possible I do walk "heavier" than normal-sized people. I'm going to ask my gf. I've been told that I don't "seem" short (which of course is impossible--I'm absolutely tiny, and 99.9% of everyone towers over me), but it may have something to do with how I carry myself in some way that makes me seem as if I take up more space than I actually do. Which I think is sort of what you were trying to get at. I definitely have seen it more in Helen-Fenner interactions than Helen-Nikki ones, which is why I got confused when you introduced the subject initially in the context of this Helen-Nikki scene.

Yeah, well, from my reading of it, Nikki would have to be a saint to find Pam anything other than scary. We all saw Pam's behavior in the ep where Shell gets sent to the Muppet Wing, and it's scary, period. Not only that, untreated mental illness is not the same as an ethnic or sexual identity. Untreated mental illness causes completely unpredictable behavior, and an inability to interact with other human beings in a normal way. Being scared of someone who is mentally ill (and not only that, but has demonstrated violent murderous behavior as a result of that mental illness) seems very rational to me. Nikki's been face to face with criminals, some crazy, some not, for 3 years now. She knows that her life is potentially on the line (think Yvonne and Renee Williams, for example). Helen's been working as a staff member, which isn't quite the same in terms of proximity and interactions. So Nikki's definitely coming from a different place here than Helen is....

YES! Whew. Absolutely: that. :)

Yeah, I was trying to suggest the opposite, or at least, something different, is happening in the H/N scenes, but didn't have time to work out all the details & wanted to post so it came out unclear.

Yes. But Nikki didn't see that. So what's she basing her fear on?

All quite fair, I can't disagree with any of that, all very good points, except to say, Nikki might have got wind of Pam's 'reputation'--I don't know, do we ever get a single iota of information about that?... but without it, it seems to me very much as if she's judging Pam on appearance, which is clearly not something Pam has a hell of a lot of control over given her situation. And that may not be the 'same' sort of bias as the ones you named at the start, but it seems pretty damn similar, to me.

Ah, as if, with Nikki, Helen allows herself to seem small. Both physically, and emotionally. Small as in open, vulnerable, accessible--all good things.

I think you're suggesting that Nikki is judging Pam because she's fat and unkempt. I don't agree. I think Nikki is judging Pam because everything about her appearance (her bizarre clothes, her unwashed hair, her vacant look) are clear symptoms of a severe mental illness. It's clear, just from a glance, that Pam is Not Normal. Nikki doesn't need to have heard of Pam or know she comes from the psych wing to know this. Nikki is an astute judge of people--remember how quick she was to see Tessa Spall's true nature, before anyone else?

Totally agree. Nikki can smell the crazy on Pam from a mile away. And she’s locked up with her every night when Helen goes home. She’s locked up all weekend with Pam when Helen’s at home. Nikki’s with Pam 27/7 – meals, showers, free time. Locked up with a paranoid schizophrenic? That’s just f*cked up. Nikki would be a fool to not to find her scary & dangerous.

Also, I didn’t take Nikki’s “fathead” line as a reference to Pam’s weight, either. I thought she meant it generically, like ‘stupid headcase’ I watched that part again, and she says it, at least to my ears, like “fathead case”and NOT “fat headcase.”


Sorry, ekny! I think in this case, Nikki was right from the start (and behaved REALLY well throughout the epi). Helen was lucky that things with Pam (miraculously) worked out. I agree with what you said earlier, about how Helen always reacts to Nikki (in response to her anger/outbursts) but I don’t think it’s true in this case.



but I still think Helen’s a hottie. I would *totally* hit on her in RL :)

Sorry but with all due respect, "fathead case" is reaching. It doesn't even scan. If they meant "fathead", 'case' wouldn't need to be included.

It could still be fat headcase without fat being reference to weight, but instead an emphasizing adjective. As in "a really big headcase" which Pam certainly is. It's so out of character for Nikki to call anyone fat that I find it hard to believe she meant it that way.