As we've been talking about the musical, and how the portrayal of Helen and Nikki's initial attraction being somewhat lacking, I've been thinking about what it was about Nikki which Helen found attractive. The obvious things that first come to mind:

1. Her beauty
2. Her leadership
3. Her moral values and strength
4. Her passion
5. Her intelligence

I think the list is a lot longer, particularly if we started looking closely again at some of those early episodes. (Of course this all plays into the ongoing debate of when Helen became aware of the fact that her feelings for Nikki were attraction....) But there are all these strange incidents, very off-putting behavior by Nikki, and yet Helen is still attracted to her. For instance:

1. Her crankiness (bordering on insulting at certain times)
2. Her anti-social aggressiveness (attacking Shell, the whole boob move in the potting shed, etc)

It made me start thinking that maybe, just maybe, Fenner isn't 100% wrong when he makes that comment about Helen getting wet for murderers. That Nikki's anti-social tendencies (from murdering Gossard to the boob move, to the escape) are actually in this one way very appealing to rule-bound Helen.

So, what do people think? What are the other instances where we see traits of Nikki's that Helen is attracted to? And how can we assimilate her reaction to the negative traits? Is it just that the negatives don't outweigh the positives (in which case itemizing all those positives becomes very important), or is it that the negatives are actually part of the appeal?

I like this, azbug! Without having followed any of the discussion of the musical or its portrayal of the relationship, I will chime in regardless...

There is a lot of the old adage "Opposites Attract" at work with Helen and Nikki. Not that they are polar opposites, but they are inherently different women.

With that said, I believe Helen admires in Nikki certain characteristics she herself wishes to possess more in herself, i.e.

Nikki is Aggressive/ Assertive/ Impulsive...and although sometimes these attributes have negative consequences, I think Helen sees that Nikki's intentions are always motivated by a deep desire for the world and people in it to be righteous.

And, I agree, Helen is attracted to her for one obvious reason...she's sexy beautiful!

Definitely ... but I'm sure Helen was attracted to her mind and personality just as much. I think Helen also appreciated her good sense of humour (bordering on insulting at certain times) and when it wasn't being directed at herself. You can see Helen trying not to laugh or smile on several occasions.

I'm not so convinced about this. I can see minor misdemeanors being attractive to someone who is a stickler for rules but not these. I always took it that Helen hadn't dwelled too much on why Nikki was inside and she probably only had a bare outline of Nikki's crime in S1. I thought that was why it came as such a shock to read Nikki's file in S2 ... not just in terms of her shocking statement but also details of the crime itself.

Ah, a good debate started off. Great. :D

I'd say that Helen is attracted to Nikki's tendency to create her own rules which are grounded on morality and not to be hung up on rules and regulations just because they are there. This is something that Helen gets to respect about Nikki.At the same time, Helen's mental immersion in 'rule bound culture' enabled her to argue forcefully that Fenner should be 'suspended pending a full enquiry' in Ep 2 Series 2. She has an ear for those cadences. You see that attraction by Helen for Nikki's freewheeling approach when she 'broke the rules' (her words) in photocopying the prison office file for Claire Walker.

At the same time, Nikki gets to see the virtue of Helen's way of working within the system by being willing to go for the CCRC and, the final example, in keeping her mouth shut at the appeal hearing. This goes against Nikki's instincts to speak up for herself and not let someone else do it for her. This is Nikki recognising that the legal way was the only way and she had to subordinate herself to that. Nikki, too, has an acute ear for languages. In the first (near) riot scene, Nikki says 'you should all be sacked). In the second riot, she argues that 'those responsible should be disciplined.' Nikki wouldn't have talked that way without Helen's influence.

I definitely agree that 'opposites attract' had a lot to deal with the mutual attraction but not anything psycopathic or antisocial- remember Helen's lecture at Nikki for threatening Fenner with a bottle and Helen is far too wedded to think that 'wanting to do something' comes very close to the deed and in terms of guilt.

Fenner's sneer was an attempt to unsettle Helen and I'd say that Abzug's 5 points are certainly right and, as Cassandra says, Nikki's mind definitely so. The more contentious points need careful attention and Helen tries to find out the reasons why situations happen rather than judge in isolation- in other words, context is everything.

I think Helen wasn't fazed by Nikki attacked Shell. Helen needed a lot of reassurance on the details of Nikki killing Gossard and her reaction to the boob move in the potting shed was so bound up in forcing her to confront her own feelings for Nikki.

"I definitely agree that 'opposites attract' had a lot to deal with the mutual attraction but not anything psycopathic or antisocial- remember Helen's lecture at Nikki for threatening Fenner with a bottle and Helen is far too wedded to think that 'wanting to do something' comes very close to the deed and in terms of guilt." ...Richard

I totally agee here with Richard, but the following has always bothered me. Helen knew Nikki, and that Nikki wouldn't walk away from defending/protecting her. Why then, if she didn't want Nikki to do anything about Fenner, why did she tell her about the assault? She should have known something was bound to happen.

But...back to the question at hand. I have always looked at Helen and Nikki as two emotionally damaged people given their respective backstory. I think they saw something in each other that could not be readily understood by either of them in the beginning. Remember when Nikki bumped into Helen in the servery? When they looked at each other, they SAW each other. It seemed to me to be an immediate undefinable mutual attraction... something that said, I KNOW you!!...which was way beyond Helen's initial overture to Nikki for help in fighting the "system" because of all those obvious Nikki characteristics mentioned by Abzug.

Despite all the twists and turns, arguments, angst and denials... and at the risk of being labeled a hopeless romantic... they were each others ultimate salvation. It was just that Nikki knew it before Helen admitted it to herself.

I think the above question is exactly the question at hand. Because, yes, of course, at least subconsciously, Helen had to know that Nikki would protect her, or defend her, or something.

So it's hard to draw any conclusion from that other than that Helen found Nikki's crime itself in some way appealing. Not the murder part, of course, but the more Romantic aspect (for lack of a better word) where Nikki did everything it took to protect her lady love from being violated. If you're Helen, how can you not think to yourself, "Gee, would Sean kill someone to protect me?" And of course Nikki's willingness to take ANY action (murder, potting shed boob grabs, escaping from prison) in order to achieve the desired--and right--end (protecting Trisha, making Helen see she was attracted to Nikki, getting to reconnect with Helen after those horrible fights) has been such a consistent trait for Nikki that it's hard to imagine Helen loved her in spite of it and not because of it.

In which case we're back to Helen loving Nikki's rule-breaking, semi-anti-social tendencies. :) (Not that I have an agenda or anything.)

I mean, in a way, even Nikki's temper in the early episodes, Helen always explained away, getting to the psychological root. Rather than thinking to herself, that Nikki is a cranky aggressive violent person, she thought to herself, If I treat Nikki like a human being she won't be cranky, aggressive or violent anymore. So she was drawn to the challenge of taming the beast, essentially, which is in a way also being drawn to the beast. Or is it?

Interesting subject, to be sure. I totally agree: Helen loves “Nikki's rule-breaking, semi-anti-social tendencies”. I also haven’t followed any of the discussion around the musical, so I apologize if this is stating the obvious (or simply rephrasing what’s already been said).

I see a lot of Helen’s attraction to Nikki, plain and simple, as a variation on the “good girl likes bad boy” syndrome. And I apologize, again, if that’s stating the obvious (well, it’s obvious to me). That leapt off the screen at me the first time I ever saw this show.

Lots of women, like Helen (rule-following, practical, good girls) fall for the bad boy or girl. Whether it’s an opposites attract kind of thing, or a way of vicariously acting out repressed desires thru another person, I don’t think it’s an... illogical or unusual response on the part of someone like Helen.

You take a bad girl (or boy) who’s good-looking, smart, funny, moral, strong, etc - to someone straitlaced and rule following, Nikki seems exciting and exotic and interesting and different. The allure is apparent.

As far as how Helen deals with or rationalizes Nikki’s bad behavior/tantrums... she obviously struggles with it over the course of the series, but I think realizes it’s just part of the 'Nikki' package. I’ll even go out on a limb and say there are times she finds it sexy/compelling/intriguing.

This brings up a recent discussion: why does Helen (and the audience) always forgive Nikki her outbursts, her tantrums, her bad behavior? With Helen, we can say, ‘well, it’s Helen and she loves her, so blahblahblah.’ But I think it’s interesting to ask (or speculate on) why the viewers always forgive her.

oh, the forgiveness observation was ekny’s, btw – and a very interesting one, I think (I can’t take credit for it)!

I think it is, but I also think it’s double-edged. I think part of Helen wants to tame Nikki (or at least tame her enough), but I say it’s double-edged because: 1) if Nikki can’t really be tamed, she ends up seeming dangerous or crazy; or 2) if Nikki *does* get tamed, would Helen still be attracted to her, given that that’s part of what attracted her to Nikki in the first place?

Helen gets a glimpse of “what if she can’t be tamed?” after Nikki escapes and they sleep together:

Nikki: 'I'm not going back to Larkhall! We're lamming it to San Fran!'

Helen :o

Hi metasin, thanks for crediting my question/observation--and thanks for bringing it up again! :) I'm not sure of all the factors that go into it, but it seems obvious Nikki's situation *as* prisoner means we sympathize with her from the get-go--as Shed's direction indicates we should. Once established, those sympathies stay put, for the most part: however flawed, Nikki is a hero. The relatively few occasions where audience members can't readily excuse or forgive Nikki are when her language & attitude come off as personal attacks on Helen, plain & simple--and unwarranted at that (the two-faced tart thing)--her perceptions are clearly (also as indicated by direction/production) just off/mistaken (Helen is not interested in Dom, much less having it off with him). So when Nikki goes all out like that it's obviously hard to take, hard to find anything likable about. I can still sympathize with prison making Nikki a little gaga, but I have to work at it, in those moments. (And even then, the show's direction is clear: Nikki literally wounds herself by wounding Helen.)

More interesting, to me, is the idea that perhaps because we are more often uncertain about where Helen stands in her relation to Nikki, esp during S3, than vice-versa, the show--by calling Helen's feelings or commitment or whatever into question in certain ways--makes it easier (again) to sympathize with Nikki (& harder on us, the audience, who are presumably invested in seeing them reunited). In other words, the shows asks different questions of both characters: it never demands of us the same level of complexity/interpretation around Nikki's orientation & what that "means" as it does of Helen: neither Nikki's orientation or her feelings for Helen are in question, they're both a given (even during her affair with Caroline; even then, I think it's fairly clear we're supposed to interpret this as a rebound-type reaction/defense on Nikki's part to the pain of having Helen cut things off). So we give Nikki more slack because of all of that, too. My feeling is that the show is inquiring into Helen's state-of-being, state of mind, what have you, in ways that are fundamentally different than what it does around Nikki, so it's fitting that the audience has a harder time wrestling with Helen, as she has a pretty hard time of it wrestling with herself.

I had some stuff to say abt the original post but it's late so maybe tomorrow or something....

Coming back to the idea of Helen being attracted to Nikki because of her rule breaking, there is an essential point that what is legal isn't necessarily moral and what is moral isn't necessarily legal. This can be given another twist that, in Larkhall, what Fenner does is both immoral and illegal (or against prison rules) yet he gets away with it. On the other hand, Nikki's protests are morally based and slapped down. The entirely cock eyed morality at Larkhall throws askew general psychological attributes.

I think I read it somewhere that Helen looked for someone who had more contempt than she had for the regime in Larkhall and found Nikki. Going back to Series 3, this is one where sympathies do tend towards Nikki for what she is going through yet at the same time, Nikki's attitude to Helen is generally more conciliatory- she apologises more often- except for the riot scene when she was caught up betweenn conflicting loyalties and Helen finding out about the Nikki Caroline thing but I didn't notice till recent debates what a front she was keeping up.

Really good points. I'd like to toss in one other thought, which is that we often think of Helen as the one who follows rules, the straight-laced one, the stiff one. But the very first time we see her – and you have to imagine the creators were very, very specific about this vision of her – she's pretty loose. She's not in the prison, she's in her car, and she's (I think) listening to music while putting on her makeup, and when she realizes she's made a mistake with that makeup, she doesn't scowl or fret. She laughs at herself.

I know that scene's been analyzed a lot ... all I'm getting at is that there's Helen at work, and then there's Helen away from work. And away from work, she likes to drink a full pint and flirt a little and throw herself on the couch to relax. I'd say you could even surmise that there's a bit of the bad girl in Helen ... it's just that she shuts that off when she goes to work. So then I wouldn't say it's just the good girl falling for the bad girl, but the at-work Helen meeting in Nikki someone who's a perfect match for the off-work Helen.

You could contrast that to Sean, who would seem a good pairing for at-work Helen (stiff, boring, rule-abiding), but is not at all her match at home.

And Helen, who knows what it's like to become someone else (the tough prison guard) in order to achieve her work goals, sees right through Nikki, who's doing much the same thing by adopting her role as the tough prisoner.

I totally agee here with Richard, but the following has always bothered me. Helen knew Nikki, and that Nikki wouldn't walk away from defending/protecting her. Why then, if she didn't want Nikki to do anything about Fenner, why did she tell her about the assault? She should have known something was bound to happen. [/QUOTE]

I am with you, here, yankeelady. By the time Fenner assaults her, Helen KNOWS Nikki. And, as others posters have said, Nikki's willingness to do anything to protect or help her (think of how many favors Helen has asked her for up through this point) is attractive to Helen. In addition, Helen knows that violence against women is a hot button issue with Nikki! I would also think that part of Helen knows that Nikki is still in love with her...so, it is odd that she reacts so harshly on our poor hero after Nikki goes after Fenner. When she first tells her what happens, she asks her to promise not to do anything further, but she is not too adamant about that request! lol I think she tells her because she can't lie to her... Nikki obviously knows somethingis upsetting her...Helen's eyes just kill me in that scene. And, Nikki's hat is too cute.

Really good points. I'd like to toss in one other thought, which is that we often think of Helen as the one who follows rules, the straight-laced one, the stiff one. But the very first time we see her – and you have to imagine the creators were very, very specific about this vision of her – she's pretty loose. She's not in the prison, she's in her car, and she's (I think) listening to music while putting on her makeup, and when she realizes she's made a mistake with that makeup, she doesn't scowl or fret. She laughs at herself.

I know that scene's been analyzed a lot .... all I'm getting at is that there's Helen at work, and then there's Helen away from work. And away from work, she likes to drink a full pint and flirt a little and throw herself on the couch to relax. You could even surmise that there's a bit of the bad girl in Helen .... it's just that she shuts that off when she goes to work. So then I wouldn't say it's just the good girl falling for the bad girl, but the at-work Helen meeting in Nikki someone who's a perfect match for the off-work Helen.

You could contrast that to Sean, who would seem a good pairing for at-work Helen (stiff, boring, rule-abiding), but is not at all her match at home.

And Helen, who knows what it's like to become someone else (the tough prison guard) in order to achieve her work goals, sees right through Nikki, who's doing much the same thing by adopting her role as the tough prisoner.

Wonderful point!

Part of her? I think ALL of Helen knows Nikki is still totally and desperately in love with her.

Wonderful post by DontUWish...distinguishing the at-work-Helen from the after-work-Helen. Totally agreement with ekny that it was a wonderful point.

Is it possible that all Helen wanted from Nikki after the assault was kind words and comfort? That she didn't think that Nikki would jeopardize her appeal by going after Fenner?

Of course, Helen was totally wrong when she characterized the assault as "her problem" alone; being in love does mean shared problems, and she certainly must have thought as much when she told Nikki in the first place. Is this the incident that Simone meant when she said ...Nikki was becoming too dangerous for Helen, she could no longer confide in her so she started pushing her away...?

Another voice heard from and "I am unanimous in this."

And as far as Helen confiding Fenner's transgression to Nikki... If there was one thing I was absolutely sure about after having watched that episode it was that under no circumstances would or could Helen say a word to Nikki about it, knowing her history and why she was in there in the first place. Also knowing that Nikki just might be moved to do something about it and that Fenner would and could use any attack on him by a prisoner, particularly that prisoner, as an excuse to get back at both women by harming Nikki and to smirk his slimy smirk and be perfectly within his rights to claim self-defense doing it. I was positively gobsmacked when Helen did tell her about the assault.

I want to echo DontUWish's comment about at-home-Helen, and add a bit to it. Unlike most of the PO's Helen was always the more holistic approach person. In this debate I think it is important to remember that Nikki wasn't always this "rule-breaking, semi-anti-social" person. Her actions were in defense of someone she loved, she wasn't a "cold blooded killer" by any means. (Most, if not all, of Nikki's actions and reactions are born from a sense of injustice.) Personally I think Helen saw past Con Nikki and instead was attracted to Real Nikki ("treating her like a human being"). Helen was never attracted to Con Nikki; she found fault with almost everything that Con Nikki did. She has always been attracted to the person behind the Con facade and, at times, really had to delve deep to find that person.

In my opinion that is also one of the reasons why we, as the audience, are so willing and able to forgive Nikki so many things. On some level we're also aware of this interplay between Facade and Real. We know we're looking at a caged animal that is infinitely frustrated by her circumstances and because of that we can forgive her without too much effort.

Haha! I had the exact opposite response - if there was one thing I was absolutely sure about, it was that Helen would tell Nikki!

I’m sure Helen did want comfort. And I think Nikki wanted to comfort her. One of the most heartbreaking things about that scene for me is that she can’t comfort Helen. Can’t even reach out and... squeeze her hand or something, and I always find it frustrating to watch. For *both* of them.

I don’t think Helen wants to or means to jeopardize Nikki’s appeal at all - her motives for telling Nikki, IMO, were *completely* subconscious and nondeliberate. She was acting purely out of emotion, from her state-of-mind following Fenner’s assault. I don’t think Helen thought any of it thru - I think it just... came out, when she saw Nikki in the garden.

I have to disagree with this (tho first I should say that I don’t see Nikki's "rule-breaking anti-social" behavior as necessarily bad most of the time. :) Maybe that's just me, tho)!

It took Helen awhile to see past Nikki’s façade, but she was attracted to her waaay before she knew the real Nikki. She was attracted to her even when mostly all she saw was this loose cannon of an inmate. I definitely think part of Helen’s attraction was rooted in that, in Nikki's loose cannon/bad girl persona.

I think you’re right that most of Nikki’s actions are born out of a sense of injustice. She’s not anti-social for... lack of socialization skills or just for the sake of being difficult (well, not *usually,* on that last one). But her "rule-breaking born of injustice" is something I definitely think Helen found attractive - otherwise, their relationship never would've progressed.

First of all, I want to say this is my third attempt at trying to join in this discussion as my server did an arse-up the first two times (what I had originally written was brilliant and now lost). It's now back up and running.

Thanks abzug for starting this rather interesting debate.

Perhaps the reason that Helen becomes attracted to Nikki in the first place is that Nikki follows the rules based in her own morality rather than what is set in the first place. Nikki is also able to match Helen wit for wit as we see in series 1 in Helen's office where Nikki tells her, "Well, put me down the block then, go on. Rule 47 subsection 16, being disrespectful to the wing governor (pause then change of tone)...by kissing her. Would you expect me to apologize."

With Nikki being an out-and-proud lesbian it intially rattles Helen because it probably starts to bring to surface something that she has been surpressing for a long time, if not all of her life. Why else would Helen feel it necessary to make such "proclaimations" of her straightness? Two examples we have are the library where Helen tells Nikki, "I'm not into women. Not in that way," as well as the her office where she goes in her speech about being "a heterosexual" :rofl after Nikki grabs Helen's hand and puts it to her breast in the potting shed. The third example is when Nikki kisses Helen in her cell, Helen having come in after lock-up; if Helen didn't have feelings for Nikki, why did she go her cell in the first place when she could have easily gone to Dominic who supports her ideas for Larkhall? Helen's also startled (to say the least) at how she ends up enjoying the kiss after she leaves Nikki's cell.

In series two, we see Helen get pissed off at Nikki and tells her, "you'd better stop thinking I'm so fickle about how I feel about you." That's why she left her job as wing governor in the first place! She also tries to explain to Nikki what happened when Dominic showed up at her flat unannounced and uninvited. If Helen didn't care about Nikki's feelings, she wouldn't have even attempted to explain or put up with all of Nikki insecurites about their relationship. In fact, that's probably why Helen becomes even more attracted to Nikki; someone to try to comfort which allows Helen to bring some of her off-work self to try to balance her at-work persona.

As far as Series three when Helen tells Nikki of Fenner's assault on her, she told her anyway when she knew the reason Nikki is serving life. When you've had a major trauma like that happen to you, you turn to someone you love and trust and want to be with because it affects them too. Even though Helen ends things with Nikki at the beginning of series three, she is still very much in love with her. That's why Helen is pissed off (to say the least) with Nikki after seeing her in the officers room threatening Fenner; she wants Nikki on the outside and free so she can truly be with her. Nikki almost blew her chances for appeal by doing that. Helen once again shows (us) how much she loves Nikki by resigning; she could have stuck it out and gotten Fenner sacked but then Nikki would have for sure lost any chance for appeal as the court would have gotten word of her escape.

Finally, at the end of series three where Helen tells Nikki, "I want a woman," should perhaps been written to say, "I want you," because it's Nikki whom Helen wants, not just any woman.

Hope I didn't go off the subject too much. I'll stop rambling here and see if I can remember what I originally wrote.

There's a deleted scene that explains Helen's view of Nikki very concisely and this is where Helen talks to Karen She says that she 'used to think that Nikki had a problem with authority and thinks that Nikki really has a problem with injustice'. In other words, Nikki has a conception of morality which isn't formalised but which bangs up against the rules at Larkhall and this is what attracts Helen to Nikki. Helen gets to see what Nikki is getting at. She sees that the 'hard case' persona shown by Nikki very early in the series is a self defensive shell that could be penetrated. Once Nikki's trust could be engaged, then the idealist could be engaged with.

What is interesting is that Helen is either working on instinct or else sees through the surface impressions. I don't think that Helen is attracted to 'bad' as such, not in the same way that Karen was attracted to Ritchie. The two don't compare.

I agree that Helen's attraction to Nikki isn't really comparable to Karen's attraction to Fenner or Ritchie. But in the quote you mentioned, there's another interesting layer:

The words I keyed in on are "used to": Helen used to think Nikki had a problem with authority. OK, so, that means in her early days on the job (let's say, S1E1 at least) Helen thought Nikki had a problem with authority. Then her "let's go up against the Old Boys Network together!" strategy makes sense--she'd assume Nikki would be willing to fight against this particular force of authority.

But at some point Helen's interpretation shifts, from assuming Nikki has a problem with authority to assuming Nikki has a problem with injustice. The questions then become:
1. When did this shift happen?
2. When did Helen start being attracted to Nikki?
Of course, these questions are completely unanswerable, but we could discuss them ad nauseum. There's probably no single moment which could answer #1 nor a single moment which could answer #2--Helen's beliefs and feelings probably evolved over time.

But given that we know Helen was drawn to Nikki from the beginning (even if not in a romantic way), it is deliciously fascinating to contemplate Helen finding Nikki's problem with authority to be attractive. As if she thought to herself "Nikki has a problem with authority, and SO DO I--at least, I have a problem with THIS authority, from their politics to their attitudes about how I do my job. Nikki and I will be quite a pair, battling them for dominance." In which case, her early attraction (again, maybe not romantic, but it's an attraction) is an identification, a sense that she and Nikki are the same, not that Nikki has qualities she wishes she had.

Hmmmm... Or maybe, just maybe, Helen's assumption was that Nikki, as a lesbian, would have a problem with male authority...

Great posts by one and all! I am so glad that people are still discussing this show, as it's relatively new to me, and I am still enthralled with it, especially Helen and Nikki.

Yep. Both Helen and Nikki are multidimensional...there is home/ work Helen and con/ real Nikki. The fact that they get each other somehow, despite the circumstances, speaks volumes about their attraction/ admiration to/ for each other. We all want that one person who gets us, believes in us no matter the chaos we might be trapped in!

It is heartbreaking to watch Nikki clench her fists as Helen comes to her, in obvious duress. Maybe it's because Nikki could not give Helen the physical comfort she needs that she turns to violence instead. When my gf and I watched this ep for the first time, she said, "Ohh, Fenner is in trouble", she is quite like Nikki, so I knew he was gonna get it!

Helen is more of an anomaly...she visits Nikki's cell, but is upset when Nikki kisses her; she follows her down to the potting shed when she sees that Nikki is jealous of Sean (well, maybe she does not know that yet), but she sees she is upset and pursues her anyway); she tells Nikki about Fenner's assault and wants Nikki to sit on her hands with that knowledge. And, she continually asks Nikki to use her influence on the wing to help her.

I never had a problem forgiving Nikki for any of her actions. What she thinks is right she defends or takes action against. It is admirable. I am surprised she does not try to get at Thomas Waugh in some way. Even though she and Helen are "not together any longer".

I wonder how she would react if Helen were shagging another woman, not Thomas?

I think yankeelady says it all here... If there is such a thing as a defining moment, this was it. Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, too, but in that instant, they each realized their destiny. It may have taken them a while (especially Helen) to come to terms with what that "pull"-- those feelings--and the implications of all of it-- but I believe that sums it up in a nutshell.

As far as the angst-- that's just life. Finding your soul mate doesn't mean "keeping" your soul mate. Nikki and Helen were just lucky that the dysfunctional world didn't get the best of them in the end.

I had a tough time with this one.

I keep coming back to the idea this is heavily qualified... "in this one way"--a sort of 'despite', rather than 'because of'. I guess I just don't feel Helen's attracted to Nikki because of her 'anti-social' tendencies... or to put it another way, it seems more like they're 2 sides of the same coin: Nikki does some things Helen probably wishes she could do, not because she wants to be like Nikki in this way but because she is like Nikki. She wants to reform all the things she sees wrong with the Prison service: that's more or less her self-assigned goal from day one. One we know, from day one, Nikki would agree with, though their respective takes on various issues vary depending on the situation (& of course they're approaching the issues from different sides of the fence, with different levels and kinds of power, access, & methods).


...As for Fenner's comment, however, I have to disagree/demur rather strongly for the time being unless someone persuades me otherwise. I think I understand why you wondered about it, but because it's amazingly offensive (at least to me), not to mention who it's coming from, my response is doubly not to give it the time of day. (Ok, in fact I'd like to ram it back up Fenner's arse with a baseball bat, just makes me all kinds of hostile.) I could be wrong, but I don't think that's just me: my feeling is the comment's supposed to evoke an audience response of distaste/repulsion--and not only because of its deliberate crudity & nastiness of intent. So, no I don't want Fenner having ANY 'insights' about Helen's sexuality--but more to the point, I don't believe he's capable of it--not intellectually, not emotionally, not on any level. He knows shit about women or what women want. We've seen 7 seasons of that. All he knows is what he wants. Murderers make Fenner hard. That's the lens he sees Helen through--his own--& imo, that's what his comment is supposed to remind us, bring us to. It's not about Helen: it's about him & his supreme assholery. Not to mention it more or less discredits everything Helen's about--why she works there, everything she stands for. So I really have trouble with the idea that this carries some partial 'truth' about Helen.

Beyond that, & trying with dubious success, I admit, to get past my huge distaste for the comment, I'd still have to say the idea doesn't really click for me. I mean--I'll try to look at it as a comment not in relation to Fenner. <resolve face> Ok. So... Helen's surrounded by murderers--do we see her casting longing looks Shell's way? Shell, as I've suggested before, is kind of Nikki's doppelganger (the concept is inherently yucky but I think it stands up & would still be interesting to explore). On paper, they're not that different. Shell has been convicted for murder too; she's attractive, speaking generally/objectively (not to me but whatever), she's roughly the same height as Nikki, she's got presence (albeit of the heavily whacked variety); she's sure enough antisocial--in fact she's completely amoral. (Also, ok: nuts. Or so damaged that we'd just be splitting hairs spending time wondering what to call her, in this context.) Helen isn't attracted to Shell. I think it's a potentially useful distinction, actually, if your point is that Maybe Fenner has a point. Helen doesn't spend her days walking around all hot & bothered because she's surrounded by cons. That's (literally) Fenner's bent.

Or: Helen takes a lot of care trying to help Shaz come to terms with her crimes, but she couldn't be less interested in Shaz personally beyond her professional concern, even when helping Shaz see Denny in the hospital & so forth. She's not attracted to Shaz or interested in getting to know her as a person. So it seems Nikki's an exception, not a rule.

Looking at the men in Helen's life, for a more 'realistic' comparison... insofar as Helen has a type, Nikki's antisocial behavior, again, is not in keeping with any of the male incarnations of that type. At all. Not Sean, not Thomas. Given that these are actually people she has been involved with, that does seem pertinent. Sean may prove himself a self-involved jerk but he's hardly a bad boy. Thomas? He's the opposite of a bad boy. (And for those who include Dominic in the list... pretty much defines "Major Goodie-goodie".) We don't have enough info to say for sure, but Nikki's at least roughly consistent with a 'type' Shed might be suggesting Helen tends towards in terms of some generalized set of physical characteristics; beyond that, however, I simply read the H/N incidents you're alluding to as indicators of Helen's compassion for Nikki & of her ability to usually put her own feelings aside in the case of Nikki's outbursts, etc. Not about their attraction/dynamic in that way; not a bedroom thing. So that part of the dynamic reads to me like a complicated, ongoing set of responses to the complexities of their respective situations & how they wrestle with or try to deal with them, ethically, rather than about the sizzle, or sexualized/eroticized expression of some component between them that's core--rather than situational.

Having said those things, Helen is no doubt used to the rules of straight engagement; being pursued, the whole dance men & women do. It seems to me it's the fact that her own feelings and desire have caught her unawares & are so overwhelming which both enables her to disregard her own rules & to find pleasure in a different sort of engagement, where she's active in all senses, rather than just the object of desire.

Yes, agreed!... this refiguration works a whole lot better for me. :)

Abzug has asked a worthwhile question in backing up posters to consider Fenner's remark and consider if there is anything in it and if so, how much. To work through the arguments and reject Fenner's point of view is work well done.

Abzug's last post and ekny's have definitely hit the mark on this one. There isn't a shred of vicarious enjoyment of 'badness' and the point was worth while made in debates about Thomas that, his choice of smoking material aside, he is a sort of bad substitute for Nikki.

Fenner was just being his typical self in trying to find a chink in Helen's armour which had been impervious to him and all the more frustrating. he was saying something that might make Helen doubt and question her own motivations towards Nikki in line with his very manipulative character.

The scene where Helen tells Nikki about the sexual assault shows up the fact that , in the 'level playing ground' ethos, Fenner ought to have been able to be brought to book but Helen knows damn well that there isn't the slightest chance of authority believing her. This is a wierd instance that the previously established etos in Series 1 of i'nobody believes a con's complaint against a screw' is terrifyingly changed to 'nobody will believe Helen's complaint against a screw' The whole situation is totally askew in terms of the 'proper rule of law and order.'

It's not so weird, because the 'nobody believes a con over a screw' is really just a corollary of the larger theorem, which is 'nobody believes a woman over a man' particularly when it comes to sexual assault. Sad but true, not just at Larkhall, but in the world in general.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, why are you assuming that Helen has the same taste in men as she has in women? Given that Helen is a lesbian (even if she doesn't know it yet), then one could argue her attraction to men is far less primal, and far more intellectual, then her attraction to women. So her taste in men wouldn't reflect any bad boy yen, if that bad girl yen is coming from her deep unconscious. From personal experience (blah blah, bisexual phase in my early 20s, not un-Helen-like), I was always attracted to really Nice Guys, but the women that I picked were very different.

That said, I'm not going to argue wholeheartedly for this Helen-has-a-fetish-for-bad-girls idea. I brought it up because I thought it was an interesting and revealing angle to explore, not because I am convinced its true. I think at most it might be a small element of what is going on, for someone like Helen who has always done the right and good thing to be attracted to a con and a murderer who is a total rebel, well, it's certainly an intriguing thing, when you step back and think about it. But I've found all of the other ideas people have posted to be just as interesting and revealing, so it sort of feels like we're really seeing the whole kaleidescope of what is going on for Helen.

I deliberately didn't read your posts on this subject so as not to be influenced by any......it will be interesting to read them all after posting this though as I am sure you have all made some sound and logical points....

Nikki stood apart from the other prisoners in my view.....I hate to admit but I hadn't even realised she was gay for abit, my first opinion of her was one of a bit of a smart arse actually......regardless though she did stand out...she seemed to demand a certain ammount of respect and she didn't fit the bill of the usual kind you would normally think to be in prison.....her getting on with things without fuss and making the most of being there by use of the library made her appear to be the kind of person who would take responsability for her actions and make the best of a bad situation....

She also had a compassionate nature which showed in her distress for Carol's wellbeing, and I feel that when Monica came along it showed a softer side to Nikki's charactor.....

From the start when she challenged Helen, who obviously knew Nikki was right but could not be seen to backdown, I feel she first made her mark on Helen.......in the down the block when they had their talk I felt that they both got a new perspective of each other...... that is where I believe Helen saw Nikki as an alli against the all boys club and Nikki realised that Helen was honestly concerned for the women.......

It appeared that after that Helen actively sought Nikki out whilst Nikki still had some misgivings regarding Helen's motives. I thought Helen was wrong and rude to say that Nikki let herself down after the drug incedent.....it didn't make sense nor did Nikki deserve it.....this pissed Nikki off and rightly so......at that time I would wonder if it only confused her more and doubt Helen's sincerity......

Whether Helen saw Nikki as a way to help her change things or to be an alli she seemed to be the one who persued Nikki. To me Nikki paid little attention to Helen other than the normal curtisy.........it was as Sean himself suggested that Helen had become obsessed with Nikki.....

Now whether or not at this point Helen had some feelings for Nikki, it was interesting to note the slight hesitation or the look on her face when Sean stated her preference to who she liked in Yfronts......for a moment there it looked as if she was actually thinking about who she really did prefer....did she for one second try to imagine Nikki in them?......

I feel as though by this stage Nikki had been on her mind more than perhaps we were lead to think......why did Helen look so uncomfortable introducing Sean?.........if you look at the comings and goings between Helen and Sean and the times they are alone , there is little affection displayed on Helen's part.........in some scenes she almost pulls away from him......they certainly don't portray a couple madly inlove.....

Helen's facial expressions give her away when talking with Nikki......in the library it almost looks as though she is playing or teasing Nikki and later why would she ask Nikki how she knew she wanted to be with a woman if she herself had not already questioned herself privately which I'm sure by now she had........

Apart from the crime of passion Nikki had commited both women had many of the same qualities and beliefs....Helen would have been inwardly drawn to Nikki in many of these areas whilst outwardly struggling to understand the new feelings she undoubtably would have been coming to terms with...I don't think it was a physical attraction that began their journey towards love but more an overall admiration for the others views and principals....

A bond of sorts had now been formed and Helen obviously felt comfortable and trusted Nikki..if you think about it she had actually been out of line in her interactions with Nikki ....by the time Helen came into Nikki's cell and broke down, she had realised that Nikki would be there for her and offer the emotional support she needed......maybe in innocence she just needed a friend at that moment and turned to Nikki, but after the kiss it really opened her eyes to what was truly happening between them.......as she stood outside the cell door with her hand on her lips it was plain to see that she had more than enjoyed the kiss.........possibly genuinely startled at the degree of significance this kiss would prove to be she then tried to do a complete about face and scream of her sexual preference being men.....

From then on the attraction became physical.....

Helen always seemed to me to be worrying more about what was expected of her in her job and what others would see her as rather than face what she herself wanted for her own life.......in many ways this imprisoned her more than Nikki being behind bars......it was as though she had to maintain an image that didn't really fit.....yes at work it was important to have the respect and support of her fellow workers and prisoners and this made her appear to be strong willed and centred, but she also had a side that could be naughty and risky......

The secret meetings, the stolen kisses, seductive glances were all out of line and if caught would have seen her dismissed.......so whilst on the one hand she was trying to be "the boss" so to speak, on the other she was like a naughty school girl breaking her own rules by sneaking time with Nikki........I don't think that she was as "straight" (by this I mean goody two shoes) as she tried to be.......

It suits me to believe that in Nikki Helen saw the difference in a life that would be lived to the fullest , whilst with Sean it would have been merely an existance......

We are often told that in a relationship you first need to be friends........I think that in the beginning Helen saw Nikki as just that, but then the qualities that showed in Nikki were the ones lacking in any of the men Helen knew......this made her look at Nikki differently and progressed on to be both a mental and physical attraction that she couldn't deny or fight........

For the most part both women brought out the best in each other........whilst Nikki was proud and determined and at times a little too
headstrong which made her appear hard, Helen was able to bring out the softer side and let loose on emotions such as tears which made Nikki even more desirable............Nikki on the other hand made Helen look at things less complicated, and relax more.........it is weird when you look at some of Helen's scenes in which she doesn't look that attractive, then you look closely at the scenes she is in with Nikki and acting or not there is a definite glow to her face and she looks absolutley gorgeous.....

It is debatable just when Helen found herself attracted to Nikki either physically or not.........but it would be hard not to think that when both women are glaring into each others eyes there would not be the first sign of admiration that Helen would feel seeing Nikki standing up for the rights of all the women.......this would have surely put Nikki apart from the rest in Helen's mind and made her a woman both to be reckoned with and admire......the seed had been planted.......

I agree that in many ways, Nikki and Helen are 2 sides of the same coin. I should also qualify my other posts: I don’t see Nikki as being ‘bad’ (her being incarcerated notwithstanding). I used the word... carelessly and conveniently, to make a broad analogy about “women drawn to bad boys.” Someone used the word ‘rebel’ to describe Nikki, and that seems more fitting to me (I also used “anti-social” to describe Nikki, tho I really don’t think she’s that, either).

In a way, defining Nikki is hard because we only know her from prison. Btw, the posts about “at-work” Helen and “at-home” Helen were *really* interesting. We always assume Nikki’s the easier of the 2 to read/know/understand (and in a way, that’s true). But while we get to see “at-work” Helen and “at-home” Helen, we never get to see Nikki as anything other than "at-prison." So it begs the question: what IS Nikki like outside of prison? Is she just as moody? As prone to tantrums? As jealous and possessive? (of all these, I’m only comfortable possibly agreeing with the last - although all of it, obviously, is pure speculation).

I still think at least part of Helen’s attraction to Nikki is rooted in her rebel image. Not the kind of bad boy persona that drew Karen to Fenner or Yvonne to Richie, or anything like that, tho. I see Helen as VERY straight-laced, so in comparison to what she knows/is familiar with, yes, Nikki seems ‘bad.’

Going back to the “2 sides of the same coin” idea, I think Helen was drawn to Nikki’s willingness/ability to speak out, esp on behalf of others. ekny – I agree that deep down, they both basically want the same thing as far as change/reform/justice, and you’re right – they simply approach it from different ways. I’m not sure Helen doesn’t find Nikki’s approach... compelling, tho – even as it frustrates her.

I think it’s probable Helen felt that kind of identification/attraction with Nikki – I just think it’s unlikely she would’ve been romantically drawn to her (eventually) if Nikki were as rule-abiding and by-the-book as she (in that case, they probably would’ve just become friends/allies)!

I wouldn’t say Helen has a fetish for bad girls, but I do think Nikki’s ‘bad girl’ persona or rebelliousness most definitely attracted her. But since I can’t cite any concrete evidence or support from the text, I... pretty much hit a brick wall with this :)


Oh, I also agree that Helen doesn’t ‘goes moist for murderers,’ or anything along those lines. There’s absolutely nothing to support that idea (but Fenner’s own projection).

<gulp> Ok, this was pretty surreal, my head had a swimmy moment while reading this: I had posted a reply earlier, then deleted it because I wanted to edit it more, in my compulsive way. But it wasn't really up for long so I doubt anyone saw it. But anyway, part of that reply was:

The other thing to consider is this: we all have an idea of who Nikki is, but--unlike Helen--we've literally never seen Nikki out of a prison-related context. We never will. Stealing away for 3 hours does not count; the 2 minutes at the end of the show are hardly indicative of anything. So the only Nikki we'll ever know is this Nikki--the prison Nikki. We can guess & extrapolate, perhaps quite accurately... but it's fiction. So we'll never know twice over.

So reading your (very well-written & clear) post was like--whoa, are we channeling each other or what? Kinda disorienting (in a cool way...). Which is to say, I agree with most of your points, & many of Abzug's. :D Now I don't even gotta post, see?!

hahaha! ekny - let's just say, 'great minds think alike!'


.... as far as not having to post, I know the feeling! More often than not, I have absolutely nothing to add/say after reading the episode threads here! ; )

Oh no you don't, very sneaky. Not to be too uh, assertive, but that is not gonna fly, girl. You write well (as you know) and you've got a lot to say. And the more people who participate, the better. Seriously. So you don't get to go skittering back off after a bon mot or two, no way! ;p <muttering about scruffs of necks etc....> --e

( :) )

To finish responding to some of yesterday's (or whenevers?!) stuff...

Hee. I thot I'd already taken up self-assigned role as DA in this thread! Well, to play Devil's advocate to your devil's advocate--why wouldn't she? Most people I've known seem to choose roughly consistent personality types in terms of who they're interested in. Not necessarily consistent physical types (tv shows are different), but temperament, that sort of thing--regardless of gender, I'm saying. So I don't see why Helen would be so different. Speaking very broadly, if you want someone with a sense of humor & brains, that'll be the same no matter what genitals they're wearing or preferences they're sporting; if buns of steel or whatever are important , then that's a different set of priorities.

Anyway, I was basically just saying, Helen's got no previous history with women far as we know, but there are no women on her dance card except Nikki. H's previous history with men indicates "bad boy" is not a characteristic trait; her current attraction to/involvement with Nikki can't be generalized about very usefully since it's singular. But I see no indication she's generically Excited by the idea of working in prison with, say, rough trade all 'round. And I see *lots* of evidence Fenner IS. So that's the meaning I could wring out of that comment.

Beyond that, we can't entirely know if what happens between H&N happens 'despite' or 'because of' their shared environment. (That's part of what drives a lot of fanfic, imo--the what-if/alt scenarios that ask: would they have found each other if not 'caught' or trapped in such a hothouse/pressure-cooker setting.) At the very outside, the fact Helen is surrounded by women all day certainly suggests she's comfortable with them (unlike, oh... Hollamby, for ex); Helen is--by choice--not working in a corporate setting where she's the only women battling the glass ceiling or whatever. She chose something very different, absolutely.

I'd just like to underline--as I mentioned in my previous post--that I'm open to other meanings of what you seemed to be asking (assuming I understood the original question at all!), & am finding the process of seeing other people write abt this quite helpful. I like threads where I don't always understand what they're about, at first, because I have to do some work to get to a place where I can even articulate WHY I don't understand. If that makes sense. I'm finding this one very interesting for that reason (beyond the subject matter).

Oh, I know that! :D

Totally. Agree it's interesting, & again, I've been following closely & admiring the variety of responses.

Oh, again, ITA, & thanks for starting such a great thread! Sometimes they just seem to hit something, you know? :) --eknyskya

I wonder if part of the "spark" that we're desperately trying to pin down with words comes from Nikki's representation of the taboo. Taboo in that she is a woman; a lesbian attracted to Helen. Behind bars; a prisoner in her care. And of course, someone who has broken the law in the most serious way possible BUT in a situation where nothing else could have protected the woman Nikki loved. (That immediately sets her apart from most other inmates. It also - plot wise - gives her a moral high ground that no other inmate could have.)

I think there's something very powerful in that. Subconsciously, is Helen asking herself: can I too break the "rules"* when it REALLY matters? How far can I go to achieve what I want professionally and personally? Nikki is the sort of person who brings her to the brink of those kind of decisions and questions. She is a challenge to all of Helen's pre-conceived ideas, and that makes her compelling and therefore, of interest.


Then the hormones kick in.


* be they social, legal, whatever...

I really like some of your ideas here but I gotta go away & think about them for a bit before replying. Just wanted to acknowledge your post so it wasn't hanging its little bottom out alone to dry. Or... some mixed metaphor thinger like that. :D (Hey. 3 days retail before Xmas. I got excuses! Yo, you wanna see excuses...) --e

I just wanted to weigh in on the attraction between Helen and Nikki--
This is a topic that I often think about and I believe that there is such a thing as fate or destiny and that we are attracted to people by forces that we don't always understand but must pursue. There was obviously an attraction from the first moment that they laid eyes on each other even if they didn't realize at the time where it would lead. When Barbara asks Nikki if she believes in "soulmates" Nikki smiles and says that she guesses that she does (obviously thinking about Helen). The depth of their love is the thing that comes across to me each time that they meet and it is really 'bigger than both of them'.
One of the things that I think drew them to each other is that they both are persons of great integrity. Nikki realizes that Helen is really sincere in her desire to make things better for the inmates, and Helen sees in Nikki her qualities of leadership and inner goodness and kindness hidden by her often tough exterior. There arent a lot of examples of integrity that we are shown in the rest of Larkhall Prison. [Of course it also doesn't hurt that they are both hot!]

Not sure if it has been said before but I got the feeling that Helen saw Nikki as someone misplaced, that she wasn't really a criminal. This explains why the scene where Helen reads Nikki's file that Helen is so shocked and wants reassurance. On one level, she 'knows' the facts but on another, they haven't registered. This is revisited again when Helen catches Nikki scaring the shit out of Fenner with the milk bottle.

Yes I really agree with your comments Richard, I hadn't considered it in those terms before.

Let me begin by saying that I have deliberately not read the entire thread because I didn't want it to color my reply.

I think initially Helen was drawn to Nikki because she recognized in her a leader and she needed an ally on G-Wing. If you remember, most of the first series Helen spent trying to bring about true reform and butting her head against the good old boys network.

I don't see Helen as straight-laced. Outside of work, she seems to know how to have a good time. Rather, I think she is familiar with and comfortable in a world of rules and authority. Unlike Fenner and some others, she doesn't use the rules or the authority for power, she wants to work within the system to bring about true change for the women in the prison. She sees beyond the 'prisoner' to the person.

Helen and Nikki truly connected once each stopped seeing the other within their labels of governor and prisoner, and began seeing each other as people. Sometimes you connect with someone and it is like you have known them all your life. I think that is what happened with Nikki and Helen.

Nikki is far from the 'typical prisoner'. She was a business owner with seemingly a fairly stable and successful life before the Gossard incident.
Helen was drawn to her integrity, her principles, her sense of humor, and her intelligence. She fell in love with the person and then when she realized it, had to deal with all the preconceived 'rules' about same sex relationships and what she has been told her entire life is normal.

Despite Nikki's hot headedness and jealousy at times, I think she and Helen are really more alike than one would think. Both feel deeply, whereas Nikki wears her heart on her sleeve, Helen internalizes it. So, in summary, I guess Helen was drawn to Nikki because she embodies the characteristics Helen was looking for in a mate -- understanding, principled, intelligent, good looking, with a good sense of humor.

Just re read that and it sounds almost like a personals ad. :rofl