Helen-Just what is she?
Vergil PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:28 am

Helen-Just what is she?
Not sure if there is similar thread already on here but ill post away anyway. Is Helen straight, gay or bisexual? I know this subject has been debated much before- but i must say im not sure i agree with sheds statement that she is a lesbian and that the end of s3 line 'i want a woman' was a coming out statement. I think this was sheds way of appeasing fans over the disappointment of much of s3, as many fans of course want helen to be a lesbian. The fact that shed had to clarify that helen was indeed a lesbian highlights how confusing much of the writing concerning helen was for viewers to interpret in series 3. I remember many people saying that she had had a character transplant in s3. Im basing my evidence on that which happened in the show.
-Helen never showed any interest in any other woman but nikki and of course we learnt from helen that in her past too- she showed no interest in women
- Helen enjoys the company of men,she fancies men and as we saw with sean/thomas obviously enjoys sex with men

This suggests that she is either a straight woman who has fallen for one person(nikki) who just happens to be a woman or that she is bisexual- enjoys men and women.
what is the evidence in the show itself to suggest she is a lesbian?

Even when she is with nikki on the outside surely she will still admire men,find them attractive- Lesbians surely dont do this- their persuasion is women. And if helen/nikki were to split up is anyone convinced that helen would look for a woman rather than a man? im not

I would like helen to be a lesbian- but the evidence in the show itself does not back this up imo. I have always thought it would have been more interesting if the doctor in s3 had been an intelligent, caring sexy gay female who took an interest in helen. This would have shed more light on helens sexuality.

I just dont see how one line'i want a woman' proves that helen is a lesbian rather than something else.

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abzug PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:59 am

This is definitely a much-discussed topic, and for a while I was one of the people arguing for Helen being a bisexual, or unlabeled sort. However, there are a few things which convinced me that Helen is actually a lesbian, none of which have anything to do with the fact that Shed said it.

1. That damn "I want a woman" line--what does it mean? I had a realization a few weeks ago which I posted in the "We'll take things slowly" thread. There's a missing but implied phrase in this line, and its so THERE that Helen might as well have included it. "Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But [I don't want a man] I want a woman." Its like an elision, like saying "don't" instead of "do not." The phrase is there, in Helen's statement. By saying "He's everything you would want in a man, but I want a woman" Helen is also saying "I don't want a man." Not, "I don't want Thomas" but "I don't want ANY man." Sounds lesbian to me. Smile

2. Yes, Helen had relatively successful relationships with men, but I think its pretty easy to argue that none of them had the emotional intensity she experienced with Nikki. To me, this makes Helen a lesbian. In my experience, most lesbians have had relationships with men at some point in thier lives, some more successful, some less successful. The fact that Helen has had loving relationships with men doesn't mean she is bisexual or straight (or, Nikki-sexual, the term I would use for the idea that Nikki is the only woman Helen has ever or would ever be interested in). My interpretation is that Helen had very enjoyable relationships with these guys, but she didn't know what she was missing until she met Nikki. And then suddenly this whole other realm of emotional and sexual expression was revealed to her, something she had never (and could never) experience with a man.

The fact that she attempts a relationship with Thomas AFTER being with Nikki doesn't negate this. In Thomas she finds a normality and control which is extremely appealing to her after the tumult she experienced with Nikki. But its clear throughout the relationship with him that she can't give herself to him fully, that every interaction with him is measured. We're not meant to think that this is life-changing passion, that they experience a deep spiritual/sexual/emotional connection. Its comfortable and emotionally supportive. The fact that Helen likes this about being with Thomas doesn't make her bisexual or straight. It just makes her a lesbian who is scared of experiencing true, deep love and passion.


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ekny PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:58 am

I'm in agreement w/Abzug's main points. The 'I want a woman' line does--to me--clearly indicate she is answering many of Nikki's longstanding questions--you just want an 'easy' life, you could choose men or women but you're the only one I want--categorically. It's the one clarification Nikki can't ask for but needs, and by meeting Nikki's question with this specific answer, Helen seems to me, again, to be making a clear statement of preference. In fact (unpleasant as it is to contemplate), it also suggests to me Helen's given the matter enough thought that she's in fact also stating: even if it weren't you (Nikki), the next person I'd go looking for would, in fact, be a woman.
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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:24 am

I don't know that Helen did have successful/meaningful relationships with men.
Right from the outset she seems ill at ease with Sean she never seem to have clicked with him fully. He moved into *her* flat but she already sees him as a bit of an irritant. He doesn't *get* her, he's not quite on her wave length. But he's ok company, they have a bit of a social life and he's there when she feels like sex.

Sexuailty isn't a cut & dried, black &white thing is it?

Some folk know from childhood where they are going, some find out as teenagers when the hormones start raging but...
Imo Many women drift into relationships with men and coast along, through their 20's 30's 40's even 50's, until their true sexuality slowly dawns on them or they meet a woman who 'turns their world upside down'. Suddenly everything falls into place, they can now put a name to all their emotions and feelings of discontent.

Some women don't ever reach this stage, never realising their true potential but still have an okish life with a man and surround themselves with domestisity and the love of their children.

Extracating themselves from such a family situation then becomes excrutiatingly problematic, should they eventually meet Ms Right.

Helen from what we know doesn't seem to have had many friends and I would guess that she hadn't had many boyfriends, being so career driven etc. Maybe Sean was her first long term b/f ..living with him possibly reinforced her doubts about her compatability with men...albeit subconsciously???
The seeds of doubt being sown prior to meeting Nikki, hence her being open to Nikki's undoubted charms...despite her fighting her feelings and resisting, thinking she was keeping things on a professional level..ha!

The chink in her armour was there and Nikki seeped in, pervading her senses.

Thomas as has been suggested was a sort knee jerk reaction, a safe port in a storm...

So I'll stick my neck out here [I don't why but l am ...lol] and say that Helen was a lesbian of the late developing variety!

COOL Cool
.
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mandanamad PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:33 pm

HELEN
i personally think that helen is bisexual and at 1st was confussed about her sexuality thats why i think she kept breaking it off with Nikki and going back to men becoz she didn't know how she felt herself up untill thomas susses helen and says sommit like " you risked the career you love to be with her and i know you wudn't have do it if it wasn't serious between the two of you " and i think thats when helen has a re-think and finally comes to the conclusion " yes it is nikki that i want " and goes to get her and indeed after telling her about thomas she sets the record straight that after all that time going in diffrent directions her path does come back to nikki and stays with her thats where her heart belongs.
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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:00 pm

Wow!
I am in total agreement with every word Cool Uk says!
Very well expressed.

I don't see Helen as been bi-sexual in any way, despite her past relationships with men.
None of these proved satisfying for her in the emotional sense.

Helen was very keen to be seen as "normal" as shown in her conversation in the library with Nikki.

Thomas was the "perfect" man, good looking, intelligent, kind and caring.
As Helen says "Everything you could want in a man"

So the fact that she chose Nikki over him, tells us everything we need to know.
She was very much a lesbian.
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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:38 pm

Normal
Helen was very keen to be seen as "normal" as shown in her conversation in the library with Nikki.

I think at that stage it was still subconscious though.

It wasn't a deliberate action of Helen's to 'act' "normal" ie straight [Ooo I do hate using theses labels]~ it wasn't really within her mindset that she was anything else.

She felt drawn to Nikki, she sort her out often enough, enjoyed her comapny, but didn't know *why* ~ the penny still hadn't dropped so to speak.

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Jeanna PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:55 pm

'Functionally' bisexual...emotionally lesbian, always. :)

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abzug PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:07 pm

Jeanna wrote:
'Functionally' bisexual...emotionally lesbian, always. :)

Well put Jeanna!

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:50 pm

'Functionally' bisexual...emotionally lesbian, always. :)

Like that phrase!!

But although she may have been occassionally 'functionally' bisexual[we don't know how many male partners she had, not a lot I think ..she certainly didn't sleep with Thomas more than once, maybe twice]..she won't be 'Functionally' bisexual post S3:finale surely?????

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HuskiesFan PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:09 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
'Functionally' bisexual...emotionally lesbian, always. :)

Like that phrase!!

But although she may have been occassionally 'functionally' bisexual[we don't know how many male partners she had, not a lot I think ..she certainly didn't sleep with Thomas more than once, maybe twice]..she won't be 'Functionally' bisexual post S3:finale surely?????


Am I missing something....do we know for sure if she slept with Thomas or is it assumed....?

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abzug PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:18 pm

HuskiesFan wrote:
Am I missing something....do we know for sure if she slept with Thomas or is it assumed....?

Well, she kissed him on the couch in his apartment. Usually amongst adults of Helen's age, that means they had sex. Plus, if she hadn't, perhaps she would have explained to Nikki that they had only snogged....

I think we are meant to assume they've had sex--we didn't need an intimate "after" scene like we got with H&N or Crystal and Josh to prove it.

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:45 pm

That's what I assumed..the once on the sofa ...lol

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Aussie PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:01 am

Sexuailty isn't a cut & dried, black &white thing is it?

Some folk know from childhood where they are going, some find out as teenagers when the hormones start raging but...
Imo Many women drift into relationships with men and coast along, through their 20's 30's 40's even 50's, until their true sexuality slowly dawns on them or they meet a woman who 'turns their world upside down'. Suddenly everything falls into place, they can now put a name to all their emotions and feelings of discontent.

Some women don't ever reach this stage, never realising their true potential but still have an okish life with a man and surround themselves with domestisity and the love of their children.

Extracating themselves from such a family situation then becomes excrutiatingly problematic, should they eventually meet Ms Right.

******************************************.

Very interesing , No doubt you are right about that .

Nothing in this world is ever simple , cut & dried or black & white for that matter .

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Vergil PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:13 am

helen
thanks for the replies. You say that with sean/thomas there was always something missing from the relationship. I would agree but is it just nikki- the individual person/character who provides this extra something, that connection or is this extra something because nikki is a woman and only women, not men can provide this extra something that helen wants? hope that makes sense. would the love between h/n be as strong on the outside- after all a proper relationship on the outside would be very different to the relationship they so far had had. Would the passion/intensity be as strong away from the prison environment? After all nikki was helens sole ally for much of the time, the sole person who understood what she was feeling and going through- this created an intensity to their relationship within the prison walls- they needed to talk to each other/ see one another. What im trying to say is that within the prison environment the connection/understanding was great- the prison environment helped draw them together. Would that connection/understanding/intensity be the same away from larkhall? Obviously we dont know but would like to think it would

Jeanna PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:19 pm

As a minor adjunct to this question...is it written in official lit anywhere that the character of Claire is a lesbian, or is that just assumed by the majority of fanfic writers (and Nikki, when Claire sympathetically said it was nice to stay friends with your ex and then questioned Helen if all they are is just friends)

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abzug PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:31 pm

I've seen at least a few fanfics where Claire is straight, and having just rewatched all the episodes with Claire, there is no clear indication of her sexuality, other than Nikki's assumption.

However, Bad Girls being Bad Girls, the "assumed straight until proven gay" adage doesn't apply (gee, could this be why I like this show so much?), which I think is why so many fanfic writers have gone with Nikki's assumption. For another example of this, has anyone noticed when Lorna Rose is clearing out her locker, she's got a few pictures of women in it? Now, her sexuality is never mentioned or implied, but I've always just assumed she was a dyke, and those photos were all the confirmation I needed. The same is true with Claire--if they took the time to let Nikki "read" her as gay (and we know what a good reader Nikki is!) then that's good enough for me.


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Jeanna PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:44 pm

:) Yes, that's jus what I was thinking as I read your reply. Nikki's gaydar was quite successful in at least one example that we know of. <G>

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:39 am

abzug wrote:
The same is true with Claire--if they took the time to let Nikki "read" her as gay (and we know what a good reader Nikki is!) then that's good enough for me.


I did feel it was implied, both in the careful phrasing of Claire's statement/question to Nikki, which suggested personal experience, and of course in Nikki's look back. Also--though there's no reason to 'assume' the composition of Claire's legal team 'means' anything other than that she hires the best staff for her work, the fact that it was all women and that at least one read as dyke to me--the older woman who did the actual questioning at trial--doesn't necessarily weigh against the conclusion that Claire's had relationships with women, although is perhaps not out to all & sundry.
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babaluba PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:17 pm

halen what she is?
for me helen is helen. intelegent women who isn't afraid to make the most of her life, that includes also love.

for me 'I want a woman' just doesn't sound right sorry guys

Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

I think ' I want you' would be more appropriate,

becouse helen is seeking for true love and as so it heppens that she find it in woman.(of course she has problen accepting it at beginning, but she comes around at the end.)
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

i don't think that it's about sexuallity, it doen't matter what you are. It's important to find true love.

To love and be loved[b][/b]

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:51 pm

Helen - Just what is she?
I think abzug that Shed is more definitive about Lorna Rose. The official website says of her character: "Has never had a partner and is scared to go to gay bars in case she runs into ex-inmates"! On the other hand they don't even mention Clare Walker as a character, so we can't get any help from that quarter. I don't think that I would like to put my head on a block either way as to Clare's sexuality. I suppose when Nikki asks Helen about her, Helen does say "Nikki! I've told you before I've never been into women!" She doesn't say "Neither has Clare", but I suppose that doesn't prove anything really, because the conversation is about her, not Clare. ekny, what makes you definitively say that Marion the barrister is a lesbian? Also just gaydar?

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:41 pm

It's interesting that Claire was only in BG briefly and Marion only or twice once I think. Claire is in so many Fanfics and even Marion appears in a few...yet Lorna Rose rarely..??

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:57 pm

Re: Helen - Just what is she?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
ekny, what makes you definitively say that Marion the barrister is a lesbian? Also just gaydar?


My phrasing wasn't definitive--I said she read as a dyke--but... gaydar, hell, I've no idea what that is, really. Why did I think--. Good question. She didn't read as straight. Absence of indicators. Vocal pitch. Lack of any traditionally female/straight mannerisms (though those wouldn't necess be appropriate in this setting anyway). Minimal makeup. Some of those--perhaps all--would be assets in her profession anyway. Oh man, I don't know, maybe she's got 7 kids & a loving husband.

What's more important in that scene is that Sally Anne Howe (the actor did a really nice job, I thought) is physically large (tall/presumably fit) & trained as a cop--and still got raped. She presents as entirely credible which makes her delivery all the more devastating.

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Aussie PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:48 pm

ekny wrote:
abzug wrote:
The same is true with Claire--if they took the time to let Nikki "read" her as gay (and we know what a good reader Nikki is!) then that's good enough for me.


I did feel it was implied, both in the careful phrasing of Claire's statement/question to Nikki, which suggested personal experience, and of course in Nikki's look back. Also--though there's no reason to 'assume' the composition of Claire's legal team 'means' anything other than that she hires the best staff for her work, the fact that it was all women and that at least one read as dyke to me--the older woman who did the actual questioning at trial--doesn't necessarily weigh against the conclusion that Claire's had relationships with women, although is perhaps not out to all & sundry.


Putting my head on the chopping block here .

I tend to agree with your line of thinking in regard to your following line ,

Also--though there's no reason to 'assume' the composition of Claire's legal team 'means' anything other than that she hires the best staff for her work,

Now I have a lady G P Dr who is the very best I might add Very Happy .

Over the past 5 years she has referred me on for further treatment to A Female Endocrinologist Specialist , A Female Sex Therapist Dr & A Female Counselor .

On the other hand she has also referred me to , A Male Orthopedic Surgeon , A Male Eye Specialist , & A Male Skin Specialist .

Now my point here is ,
If there is a Female Dr who she knows and who she feels is just as capable as any male Dr of giving me the best treatment for what ever she is referring me for she will USE a Female Dr BEFORE a Male Dr every time .

Much like Claire has done for Nikki with her legal team .

My Female Dr is not Gay she has 4 children and is about to get married for the 2nd time .

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Juliet PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:29 am

Actually I never thought of Claire as a lesbian. And i'm not sure but if Claire, Helens friend for younks, is a lesbian than wouldn't Helen herself have questionned her sexuality much earlier?

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abzug PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:03 am

Juliet wrote:
Actually I never thought of Claire as a lesbian. And i'm not sure but if Claire, Helens friend for younks, is a lesbian than wouldn't Helen herself have questionned her sexuality much earlier?

Its an interesting idea. I actually came at this from another angle. We've known from pretty early on that Helen is very comfortable with lesbians on a friendship-type level. The conversation with Sean (right species, wrong variety) where Sean makes that comment about Nikki being a lesbian and Helen says "So?" as if its the biggest non-issue in the world. So to me this says that Helen DOES have lesbian friends, which is why she considers Nikki's relationship with Trish (and its demise) to be significant (unlike all the other screws). I've known a number of women with lesbian friends who have not questioned their sexuality until many years later. For these women, being a lesbian is often something which is absolutely fine for someone else, but not for yourself! Smile

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Juliet PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:56 pm

I'm not fully convinced that the fact that Helen sees lesbianism as something perfectly normal means that she DOES have lesbian friends. Maybe she doesn't find it a big issue because (unconsciously?) she's drawn to it? The same reason why she considers Nikki's relationship with Trish significant.
And if Claire is a lesbian, than does this mean that Helen has really never been attracted to a woman before? Because if she had, she would have talked with Claire about it, not? Or did she just thought it were feelings of admiration and deep friendship and didn't felt the need to talk about it? And wouldn't it be Claire than who would have convinced her that she still had feelings for Nikki instead of Thomas?
Don't know if i'm making sense here Rolling Eyes All my lesbian friends became early aware of their sexuality. And above all that, it is so damn hard to explain my complicated thoughts in English. Twisted Evil

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4us PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:19 am

This thread has been extensively discussed before and there were many and varied opinions shared.......there was also a certain ammount of heated arguments that resorted from it.....I think perhaps it is a line that is open for interpretation from each individual.....it could be argued from all angles and still we would never all be satisfied with the conclusion....the Helen and Nikki love story has effected us all in different ways....some on a more personal level than others, but the one thing we all do seem to agree on is that it was truly a wonderful and inspiring love story........I myself tried to answer this same question and have an opinion on the line......."I want a woman" way back when it was first asked.....then I answered it as a "straight woman"........now I will give my personal views as a "lesbian"..........(I hate tags but we seem to need to use them)

I had believed Helen to be straight as she had only had relationships with men........her experiences had been unfulfilling to say the least with Sean...it was apparent she was either in a rut or just settling for what was expected of her and for most of us women........settle down have kids and so forth......I think her work was her main focus in life and her love life came a poor second best.......if she had not met Nikki , she could possibly have gone on and married Sean, had kids and exsisted and probably even lived a comfortable life.........BUT.........she DID ......meet Nikki and then she had a comparison......I would dare to say that she for the first time felt what it was like to be truly inlove.......she would have experienced the emotional difference being inlove with a woman was like.......with Nikki she would have come to life..........though a rather roller coaster like affair it would have left a huge impact on her even when she ended it........

Then along came Thomas.......to use Helen's own words......."everything you could want in a man"........again if Helen had not met Nikki ,she could have even been happier with Thomas than Sean as he indeed was a nicer man, they too could have gone on to have the picket fence and all and made a happy life together.......BUT..........she HAD met and slept with Nikki and so knew the difference deep in her heart........all she had to do was accept it.......

To question if Helen was a lesbian seems insignificant as to be politically correct whilst she had only ever been with men she would have deemed to be straight........of course when she crossed the line and slept with Nikki then she became a lesbian.......I say this only by the dictionary definitions of both terms........

For the question on whether her words to Nikki......."I want a woman" declared her as coming out and confirming she was a lesbian, I can only answer from my own experience....

When I met and fell inlove with Oz I knew that it was her I wanted to be with..........I had to tell my husband that I no longer wanted to stay married to him and I found myself almost using the same phrase........what I was saying to him was that even though he was a wonderful man it was a woman I really wanted to be with.......I would never have left him for another man as I had the best in him.........it was a woman I left him for.......I was telling him that I had chosen a new path and that I no longer felt the sexual attraction that made me straight..........I felt the attraction and love for a woman that made me a lesbian..........whilst I had questioned my sexuality many times over the years, I had never acted on it and so believed myself to be straight.....to me the moment I committed to Oz I then became a lesbian.....

We have talked about this and both agree that neither one of us could or would ever want to be with a man again, so we do not feel as though we are bisexual......again I know this can sound contradictory but for us it is this way.........if with a man soley than you are straight........if a woman then lesbian........if still sleeping on and off with both , then bisexual.......of course this is just how we see it not to say it is right.......

When Helen said to Nikki......."I want a woman" I believe she was saying.......well I've had the best in a man (Thomas) and I have had you and my choice is that I want you so I am declaring to you that I now understand and have come to terms with my true feelings and I am a lesbian..........Helen would have then ceased to just exist and begun to truly live......

As I said from the start this is open to interpretation.......and being new to this and still learning this is therefore my own personal take on it.........it has only been one year for Oz and I and we feel we have come a long way in understanding and coming to terms with our feelings and new life style.......the one thing that continues to amaze us on a daily basis is how comfortable and how right it feels for us to be together........and after both having only ever had a male partner we often wonder how we got by all those years........we can only conclude that to exist is way different from living..........

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Aussie PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:31 am

My best wishes to you both for the rest of your days together and also having the courage to pursue total happiness together in your lives .

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HuskiesFan PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:51 pm

4us-

I fully agree with every word that you've expressed. That was well thought out and well stated, especially:

4us wrote:
When Helen said to Nikki......."I want a woman" I believe she was saying.......well I've had the best in a man (Thomas) and I have had you and my choice is that I want you so I am declaring to you that I now understand and have come to terms with my true feelings and I am a lesbian..........Helen would have then ceased to just exist and begun to truly live......


My best to you and Oz as you continue this journey towards true happiness.. I couldn't have been easy for either of you to start over, but now you are "where you want to be". Good luck

Last edited by HuskiesFan on Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:59 pm

[quote="Aussie"


My best wishes to you both for the rest of your days together and also having the courage to pursue total happiness together in your lives .[/quote]


Mine too Very Happy
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4us PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:55 pm

Thanks to you all for the best wishes ......but.......I must have gotten lost in translation.......lol.......'cause I was suppose to be mainly expressing what I thought about Helen.....oh well what the heck Oz is more important......or so I let her believe....... Helen ......... Wink .....and OZ.... Laughing

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Aussie PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:23 am

For Huskies Fan , Hi YUSPNK Wink ,
How are you doing ?. Laughing .

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Aussie PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:26 am

4us wrote:
Thanks to you all for the best wishes ......but.......I must have gotten lost in translation.......lol.......'cause I was suppose to be mainly expressing what I thought about Helen.....oh well what the heck Oz is more important......or so I let her believe....... Helen ......... Wink .....and OZ.... Laughing


No nothing got lost in the translation with me at all 4us .

I just wanted to wish you both the very best best in your future together that was all .
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HuskiesFan PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:13 pm

Hi Aussie-
I'm doing well...what about you? It's been a while...you don't call, you don't write.... Laughing Laughing Wink

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Aussie PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:19 pm

PSSSST careful Huskie or you will have our Gay friends thinking we are up to some thing together Laughing Laughing Laughing .

I don't call I don't write , What do you expect I am getting worn out jumping from Dominic back to you all the time Rolling Eyes . Laughing Laughing Laughing .

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HuskiesFan PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:24 pm

Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed be careful....don't give away our secrets... Laughing Laughing

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Aussie PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:31 pm

Ooops I forgot I better zip my mouth and go take a cold Shower . Very Happy Very Happy

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HuskiesFan PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:15 pm

ROTFLMAO Wink maybe I should do the same.. Shower

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aquarius68 PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:02 am

HELEN WHAT IS SHE (Claire & Lorna)
Hi, I'm a little late on this thread, but I actually think the Claire character
is hetersexual & Lorna a lesbian. If you go back to Series 1 "Playing with
Fire " episode where Zandra is lying in her bunk high as a kite, Shell
confiscates the lipstick container (containing drugs) of Zandra. Shell
says " I never had Miss Rose down as a lipstick lessa."

And in "Love Hurts" in the beginning of the episode when Helen is
getting ready for work, Sean says to her " I got a call of Simon
yesterday, not Simon your boss, Simon & Claire." I wonder if this
is meant to be Claire the Solicitor. These are a couple of my
favourite episodes - check it out.

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abzug PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:03 am

Re: HELEN WHAT IS SHE (Claire & Lorna)
aquarius68 wrote:
And in "Love Hurts" in the beginning of the episode when Helen is getting ready for work, Sean says to her " I got a call of Simon
yesterday, not Simon your boss, Simon & Claire." I wonder if this
is meant to be Claire the Solicitor. These are a couple of my
favourite episodes - check it out.

Oooh, good catch. Heck, that's enough for me to be convinced!

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:21 am

Helen - Just what is she?
I don't think that could be Claire the solicitor though, why would Helen be so pissed off at Sean saying that they could use her flat then, if that particular Claire was a friend of hers? Surely Claire the solicitor would have her own home?

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abzug PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:02 pm

Re: Helen - Just what is she?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
I don't think that could be Claire the solicitor though, why would Helen be so pissed off at Sean saying that they could use her flat then, if that particular Claire was a friend of hers? Surely Claire the solicitor would have her own home?

Darn, why'd you have to go and complicate things? Wink

That said, I always thought Helen's annoyance was because she didn't feel that Sean had the right to lend out Her home. He was acting like it was Their home, and she didn't feel that way. So in that sense it had nothing to do with her level of friendship with Simon and Claire.

That said, I think its interesting that we always assume Helen and Claire are such good friends. In truth, we really have no idea if they are. They could just be average level friends, and Helen went to her for help with Nikki's case because Claire is a criminal defense attorney, not because of any emotional intimacy between them.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:25 pm

Helen - Just what is she?
Except that they had been friends for "yonks", I distinctly got the impression that Simon was a friend of Sean's. If Simon & Claire were friends of theirs through the link with Helen rather than Sean, why would Claire/Simon not have phoned Helen, especially as it was her flat? I still think that Claire (the solicitor) would have her own home.
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HuskiesFan PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:54 pm

Re: Helen - Just what is she?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Except that they had been friends for "yonks", I distinctly got the impression that Simon was a friend of Sean's. If Simon & Claire were friends of theirs through the link with Helen rather than Sean, why would Claire/Simon not have phoned Helen, especially as it was her flat? I still think that Claire (the solicitor) would have her own home.


I agree, I got the impression that this was a different Claire than Helen's friend.

Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:33 pm

haha Claire the solicitor...
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ekny PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:48 pm

Re: Helen - Just what is she?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Except that they had been friends for "yonks", I distinctly got the impression that Simon was a friend of Sean's. If Simon & Claire were friends of theirs through the link with Helen rather than Sean, why would Claire/Simon not have phoned Helen, especially as it was her flat? I still think that Claire (the solicitor) would have her own home.


I'm w/JAMBF here, I think we're talking about another Claire. Not to mention Shed's writers didn't sweat off any brain cells thinking up names for Sean's friends. Jeff & Sarah, Ted and Alice and Mark and Sue. C'mon, no one spent 2 seconds on that--except in order to point out that if Sean's friends were as collectively banal as their names, they were boring indeed. [ep9, 21:55] (I mean no slur against anyone with those names: just that all in a row, it's like saying Bob & George & Harry. Deliberately dull.)

I do agree Helen's pissed abt Sean loaning out her apartment w/o asking (as she's every right to be); that these were primarily Sean's friends, not Helen's; that there was very little crossover between the two. No reason at all Claire, H's friend, would be going out w/a Simon, Sean's friend. Too coincidental. Conclusion: different Claire.
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munky PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:16 pm

In the final scene, Helen doesn't say "I'm here with you now" like with Thomas (which doesn't say anything about whether she really wants to be there, it just states the fact).

In the final scene, Helen says 'I want' and more than that she says "I want a woman". She doesn't say "I want you". I think by choosing "a woman", although clearly she means Nikki (Nikkie being THE woman so far for Helen), Shed wanted Helen to come out.

Remember that episode from series 1 where Nikki is in Helen's office being called for something and Helen asks how long her and Trisha have been together. Nikki says "9 years, but you probably thinks it doesn't matter because we're dykes". To which a very hurt Helen says "shut it, just shut it". Like always with Helen/Simone, there is so much in those words. She's pissed off at Nikki for taking her for an insensitive soul, but there's also the "you don't know anything about me" bit in it. I also think that Nikki, without intention, was half contemptuous, half fishing there. And Helen's response told her that it struck a cord. I think that is when Nikki first had an inkling.

I think Sean doesn't count in judging Helen's sexuality. He was there before Nikki and Helen's relationship with him basically starts to crumble the minute Nikki comes onto the scene. He stops being an option. And the fact that he was an option before Nikki, well, it doesn't count. Because he wasn't the chosen one, Helen didn't have choices before Nikki.

I'm not sure how to interpret Dominic. I mean the fact that she invited him to her place but was also honest with him. I didn't see desire for Dominic in Helen. Dominic seems to me the person on the outside with the same interest in the good running of the prison service and the same integrity as Nikki. It's possible though that she also wanted to test her faith (so to speak). Dominic was a masculine presence but not a threatening one. With Dominic she could just be herself, still a woman, but not a man's woman.

Coming to Thomas... In the dvd extras for series 3, Simone says that:
- Nikki becomes too dangerous for Helen and Helen pulls back
- Helen pushes a lot of her feelings for Nikki down and tries to brings the focus back on her career. And this is a good move cause it gets her the governor 1 grade she was working towards
- but at the same time there is so much going on inside with Nikki
- Helen no longer feels safe to confide in Nikki and so in walks Thomas who becomes her new best friend.
- Helen genuinely likes him, he's a good guy, he's handsome, he's good with the girls, he's on the right side of the fence and she can work with him so she goes along with that until he susses her out first

To me that only confirms what I was thinking. For the first time Helen can separate the emotional from the professional because Thomas is not the emotional. She goes along with the fling with Thomas because it makes it easier for her to bring the focus back on her career. Subconsciously she also knows that Nikki's appeal is under way.

Yes, there is again an element of testing her faith (so to speak). The ultimate test actually because Thomas is everything you would want in a man.

Sean, Dominic, Thomas are only parts of the journey Helen makes from herself to herself. And they each need to be there for a reason. They do not threaten or alter the final destination at any point. They are just the bridges that Helen needs to cross in her journey to realising where her heart really is.

I don't think Thomas could have been a woman. It is precisely Thomas' integrity and honesty as a man that makes Helen look at herself in the mirror.

For me it doesn't really matter what you call Helen. What it matters (and for what I'd always be grateful to the writers and to Simone) is that Helen followed her heart when her heart was pointing in Nikki's (a woman) direction.

I never felt that Helen had a problem with society's perceptions about gay women. Her problem with Nikki was the fact that Nikki was locked up AND the she, Helen, was the jailor. That "shut it, just shut up" and the fact that she even dared to mention it (and stand by it) to the other officers as a reason why Nikki should be pampered says to me that she has no problem with a woman loving another woman, she doesn't see it any different than a hetero relationship.

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Aussie PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:07 am

Thank you Munky for the well thought out and written insight .

It was a joy to read .

Welcome to the M B too Smile .

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hetane PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:48 am

yeah, Munky, good stuff. I liked that interview with Simone in series three. I thought it interesting that she was clowning around at first in the interview but when it came to her examination of Helen's relationship with Thomas and Nikki she became quite thoughtful and serious. She wasn't "on" she was the consummate actress and she really saw Helen as deeply in love with Nikki. Or at least that's how I percieved that interview.

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Tashenka PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:12 am

There's one conversation that Helen has with Thomas which is a bit illuminating. It's after the dog races at his flat. He offers her a smoke, she chokes and hands it back and says something along the lines of "I'll stick with what I know," referring to alcohol.

Obviously the line is also intended to mean a man. Helen's confused about her job, confused about her feelings for Nikki, confused about Nikki's feelings for her, so rather than try to sort it out, she's taking the easy way out and doing something she's comfortable and familiar with, which is a relationship with a man.

Given her exceptional ability for self-deception, I don't think it's occurred to her that the reason (or at least a big part of it) that being with Thomas is so easy for her is that she's not invested a lot of emotion in it. When Thomas tells her he's in love with her, her reaction is totally different to when Nikki tells her the same thing. Yes, she kisses him, but I've always thought that was an attempt to avoid saying anything more than an actual expression of passion.

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munky PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:59 pm

Quote:
I liked that interview with Simone in series three. I thought it interesting that she was clowning around at first in the interview but when it came to her examination of Helen's relationship with Thomas and Nikki she became quite thoughtful and serious. She wasn't "on" she was the consummate actress and she really saw Helen as deeply in love with Nikki. Or at least that's how I percieved that interview.


yeah, I like that too about Simone. She gets serious when she talks about Helen and Nikki. She does it in the interview for DVD S1. Whoever's behind the camera asks her how was the kiss with Mandana (the first kiss). And she starts by joking about it but then she gets serious and she says 'I'm close to Mandana' and it was ... a pleasurable experience.

I don't read anything into that. I just love her for not making a joke out of it, for not doing a Heath Ledger about it.[/quote]
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hetane PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:51 am

Exactly, Munky, I don't read anything into it either she is respectful of the gay character instead of all giggly and ashamed acting.

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mercy23 PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:31 am

munky wrote:

Remember that episode from series 1 where Nikki is in Helen's office being called for something and Helen asks how long her and Trisha have been together. Nikki says "9 years, but you probably thinks it doesn't matter because we're dykes". To which a very hurt Helen says "shut it, just shut it". Like always with Helen/Simone, there is so much in those words. She's pissed off at Nikki for taking her for an insensitive soul, but there's also the "you don't know anything about me" bit in it. I also think that Nikki, without intention, was half contemptuous, half fishing there. And Helen's response told her that it struck a cord. I think that is when Nikki first had an inkling.


I like this!! I think Nikki's "inkling" immediately turned into a "Hmmmm...is she or isn't she?" after Helen just gave her a warning for her fight with Shell instead of sending her down the block.

munky wrote:
I think Sean doesn't count in judging Helen's sexuality. He was there before Nikki and Helen's relationship with him basically starts to crumble the minute Nikki comes onto the scene. He stops being an option. And the fact that he was an option before Nikki, well, it doesn't count. Because he wasn't the chosen one, Helen didn't have choices before Nikki.


Excellent observation!!


munky wrote:
For me it doesn't really matter what you call Helen. What it matters (and for what I'd always be grateful to the writers and to Simone) is that Helen followed her heart when her heart was pointing in Nikki's (a woman) direction.


I have to say that if they'd gone the opposite direction, the show wouldn't have lasted much beyond the 3rd series, as far as a lesbian audience goes - just look at what's happening to the L Word.

munky wrote:
I never felt that Helen had a problem with society's perceptions about gay women. Her problem with Nikki was the fact that Nikki was locked up AND the she, Helen, was the jailor. That "shut it, just shut up" and the fact that she even dared to mention it (and stand by it) to the other officers as a reason why Nikki should be pampered says to me that she has no problem with a woman loving another woman, she doesn't see it any different than a hetero relationship.


Yes! Helen doesn't really see anyone as an "other" (excluding Fenner - but she's got good reason) Even as she's beginning to realize her own attraction to Nikki, you never get the sense that she's ashamed or disgusted by it - just confused simply because it's an 'unknown'.
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Jeanna PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:43 am

munky wrote:
Remember that episode from series 1 where Nikki is in Helen's office being called for something and Helen asks how long her and Trisha have been together. Nikki says "9 years, but you probably thinks it doesn't matter because we're dykes". To which a very hurt Helen says "shut it, just shut it". Like always with Helen/Simone, there is so much in those words. She's pissed off at Nikki for taking her for an insensitive soul, but there's also the "you don't know anything about me" bit in it. I also think that Nikki, without intention, was half contemptuous, half fishing there. And Helen's response told her that it struck a cord. I think that is when Nikki first had an inkling.


This is a really excellent point. There's also the moment, just prior to that, and which provokes it, when Nikki tells her that she and her partner have broken up and Helen seems just a bit more than professionally interested to hear that is now the case, that Nikki is 'available.' And asking immediately if it was a long-term thing probes for and provides further information on just how steady and loyal Nikki may be in a relationship.

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kin'ell! PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:45 am

abzug wrote:
This is definitely a much-discussed topic...
That damn "I want a woman" line--what does it mean? I had a realization a few weeks ago which I posted in the "We'll take things slowly" thread. There's a missing but implied phrase in this line, and its so THERE that Helen might as well have included it. "Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But [I don't want a man] I want a woman."


I think that the "I want a woman" line wasn't strictly as literal as it sounded. At that stage, Helen didn't know where she stood with Nikki, not really. So Helen said that she wanted a woman.. I think the words that need to be emphasised in that line are "a woman" - meaning there was a specific one Smile

In reference to Helen's sexuality. I think she was straight, in deed at least. There had always been an empathy for women - her mother died when she was young, her father had a job which I could imagine took up a lot fo his time. I think she may have been alone for some time, mentally if not physically. Working with women, more specifically, women who had been dealt a rough hand in life, would be soul food for her in a way. Try and fix their problems, while at the same, kind of tending to her own. She had a soft spot for women, if you will. Nikki managed to merged the lines for her, because this wasn't a woman who needed Helen's help, not really. For the first time I suspect in Helen's life, she was being thought of, tended to, by another woman. The care was being reflected back at her, and at first this was strange to her, and scary. She was of course unsure of herself.

The idea that Helen's mother had died is a good indication of things I guess. She didn't have that love of a mother, of a woman, like most people do when they grow into an adult. Nikki's feelings towards her, although different from a mothers, were still ultimately 'a woman's love' - something that is, in my opinion at least, a fundamental part of life. Moreover, something Helen had not felt for so long.

Of course, has stated before, Nikki's love was not like a mothers, but the foundations of it were similar. She did have, in all accounts, in season 1 - a mothering quality. "Don't let the bastards get you down" - it was a very sweet, "older person" thing to say. Nikki was wise beyond her years, and Helen saw that and aprecaited it. She knew that Nikki could help her tame her demons. It became aparent to her in Season 1. Only she was scared is all, poor Helen. She was scared that for so long she'd helped women, because she herself was void of a woman's influence... and had now begun to not only care of them, but start to love one... Rolling Eyes

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munky PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 11:39 am

Quote:
For the first time I suspect in Helen's life, she was being thought of, tended to, by another woman.

Interesting point!

In the book it says:
Quote:
Helen was brought up by her widowed father, an austere Presbyterian minister, who never showed her much love. She has had many boyfriends, the latest being landscape gardener Sean Parr, but she is ambivalent about full-scale commitment and marriage.
Because of her family bckground, Helen has wanted something structured in her life, to feel that she can make an impact. She has a deep-rooted sense of natural justice and an instinctive empathy for those women on the inside who have been dealth a rough hand in life.


It would be interesting to know about her mother's death. Why did it happen and when. Does Helen's strong sense of natural justice and empathy for women come from what happened to her mother in any way?
She hasn't just been with men, she's had many boyfriends. Which means none made an impact, she was quickly off to the next one. I don't think Sean is any different, he just happened to be the one at the time when the biological marriage clock was starting to tick. Helen is never engaged in Sean's marriage going-ons. Perhaps because Sean asking her to marry him coincides with Nikki appearing in her life. In a way, Nikki's full-throttle arrival in Helen's life is like a blessing and one that Helen does jump onto.

It wouldn't be far fetched to believe that before Nikki, Helen hasn't experienced the physical presence, the sisterhood, the affection of another woman. She grew up without a mother and she had no sisters. More so, she grew up with a father who didn't love her.

She's dealt with that by focusing on getting a career and having this career in a field where she cares about people with problems. She might have only worked in women's prisons.

How much does Helen's strange history of interaction (of the lack of it) with the female species has to do with the way she first interacts with Nikki, a woman solely interested in women? Surely, Helen knew gay women existed before meeting Nikki, but maybe up until that point she hadn't met one that made her see being gay as a viable existential model (without a reference to what Sartre understood by existentialism - just couldn't find a better word).

I think Helen's initial interest in Nikki is a fascination with the subject matter. Is this what she's been missing, what made her go through all them boyfriends like a duck through water (nothing rubbing on her). And then when she realizes that she does like the subject matter, she becomes interested in Nikki the romantic way.
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Xenclair PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:39 pm

Munky enjoyed your post, and agree with what you said.

Love your Name "Munky" reminds me of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Glory calling the Monk her "Monky" *BG*

also love:

You know your a BG fan when; you buy a potting shed and have no garden. *LOL*

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munky PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:38 pm

Here are some more You know you're a Bad Grils fan when (got them from the book):



munky...well, according to my friends it was funny the way I was pronouncing it (adopted Oop North lass, me) and it rhymed with chunky (another unfounded tease...). sometimes I'm munk.

i have offten thought this but to be honest i recon she was bisexual at first not knowing what she wanted because 1st there was sleezy sean the prawn , then helen kissed Nikki and dumped sean she was with nikki for a while then got with thomas for a very short while then realised that it was actually nikki she wanted so decided to stick with her and quiet rightly so

Hi, I was just going thru the H&N screen caps thread and in 1 pic Helen is writing in her diary: became gay. I was just wondering WHEN exactly did Helen come to the realization that she was gay, you know, WHEN did it dawn on her that fact or doesn't it matter? Or maybe it was a gradual process. We know in the last scene (Coming out ep) when she says she wants a woman that she's declaring herself as a lesbien but before that, was she aware of it. When she kissed Nikki (Shit happens ep) she was indirectly telling Nikki that she loves her,
so was it then or when she visits Nikki in jail? Coz if she was aware of it then why would she even remotely be attracted to Thomas (handsome or not). And what does it mean he was safe? I know Nikki is banged up in jail and not available, free blah blah blah. But what has that got to do with all the tea in Darjeeling?

Hi, I would also like to say that I labored thru the long "what is Helen" thread and no where the "when" was discussed. So my question is not redundant.

I think its really hard to pin down a "when" for Helen. I think that by mid-season 2 (when she returns to visit Nikki, and then starts her job at Larkhall) that she's very committed to her relationship with Nikki. I don't think she considers herself a Lesbian at this point at all--she's just focused on her relationship with Nikki, and isn't ready to commit to what that means in terms of any long-term identity. Then, she goes through a really long period where she starts to think that things just won't work with Nikki, that its too hard, that there's too much stacked against them, in terms of circumstances, personalities, etc (this begins with Nikki's jealousy, but its compounded by her escape, Helen's reaction to Shell's attack on Fenner, Fenner's sexual assault on Helen and Nikki's retaliation, and then of course, the riot). Each incident winds up being one more obstacle that Helen needs to overcome in her head when she tries to envision she and Nikki having a life together.

I actually think a lot begins to change for Helen in the last two episodes of S3, when Nikki confronts her about her relationship with Thomas. Suddenly Helen sees her relationship from the outside, from Nikki's point of view, and it seems strange and wrong. And more importantly, Helen feels Nikki's pain, and wants to make it go away. This impulse is what drives her when she says "You've got to forget about me, and focus on your future"--she's made a decision to take the easy path, to be with Thomas because everything with Nikki feels too hard, not just hard but impossible. I don't know if she would call herself a Lesbian in this moment, but I think she knows that Nikki is the love of her life, and Thomas is not. By the time she goes to see Thomas in the restaurant, she knows her relationship with him is her settling. But she doesn't think she can have Nikki either--she's chosen her path with Thomas, and she's sticking with it.

This is actually a really key point with Helen. I just rewatched the first episode of S1, and there are two references in that episode to her not being someone who changes her mind: "When I make a decision, I stick to it." She says that to Fenner, and then Stubberfield references it in a later conversation. In that first episode, it is Stubberfield who forces her to change her mind about the fashion show. In this final episode, its Thomas who forces her to change her mind about being able to be with Nikki. Very interesting parallel, especially given how many times Nikki has persuaded Helen to change her mind about the relationship (at least twice--first in Shit Happens S2E2, and then again in Oh What A Night S2E13), that Helen's first episode and her last episode would emphasize her steadfastness, even when its harmful to herself.

Anyway, I'm getting ridiculously long-winded by this point, but I think Helen's realization of her sexual identity* happens slowly over the last two episodes of S3, but its not until the moment in the bar, when she hears Nikki's speech outside the courthouse, that she thinks she and Nikki might actually have a chance to make things work, and she realizes she wants it enough to do anything she can to win NIkki back.

*Meaning, she always knew she felt more passionately about Nikki than Thomas, but she realizes that being with Thomas is actually not going to be possible, not when Nikki is out there in the world.

When I wrote the above, I forgot to add another key point about Helen and changing her mind. Which is that this is one of the key journey's for this character--learning to be less certain, learning to change her mind, to reverse a decision she's made. And certainly she learns it the hard way, starting with agreeing to marry Sean and then breaking up with him, refusing Nikki's advances and then falling in love with her, breaking up with Nikki and then taking her back (more than once!), going head to head with Fenner and then backing off when she realizes she can't win.

And this evolution of her character is central to her journey towards identifying as a lesbian, because it seems to be the thing she's changed her mind about the most. Helen "When I make a decision I stick to it" Stewart had never been confronted with the personal and professional challenges and complexities which she grapples with during her years at Larkhall. And that's why its so hard to pin down WHEN Helen realized she was a lesbian--because for someone who never changes her mind, she changed her mind an awful lot on this particular issue. :)

Can you point me to that pic, I completely missed it.

I think realising and internalising that you are gay is slightly different than finding yourself in love with a woman. In this respect, it is only in the last episode of season 3 that Helen realises and acknowledges that she is gay. She knew she was in love with Nikki from very early on.

Prior to meeting Nikki, Helen is a woman who's never thought about her being gay. She'a always been in men and though she's never been in love with them (judging by the way she's with Sean, the one she accepts to marry) but she's never questioned the reason behind that. A lot of people don't.
When she meets Nikki, she meets the right person, the one she's been missing. And slowly she realises that it isn't just the kind of person Nikki is that she connects with, it is the very fact that she is a woman. But she doesn't nail it until Thomas forces her to. Which happens to coincide with Nikki's trial/release.

It's very confusing to suddenly fall in love with somebody (especially when you haven't for a long time/ever like Helen seemed to be), this somebody to be of your gender, locked in prison and with you holding the key.

I don't think it is a "when" moment, it's a 3 series long process. There isn't a "when" moment for Nikki falling in love with Helen either (though the roof incident is a strong candidate here).

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...wtopic=59&st=90

It's on that page, about a quarter of the way down.

Hi Abzug and Munky, Thanx for your very thoughtful responses. I can very well understand the depth of romantic love and the highs and the lows and no cold way to explain emotions or the moment Helen felt the light bulb go in her head about being a lesbien. It was probably a subconscious thing, I'll assume it was a gradual process then. We can discuss this till kingdom come and still wonder. Ciao.