ekny PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:02 pm

When does H figure out N's a lesbian?
At what point before the ep3 exchange with Sean does H know N's a lesbian?

I have to say up front I don't think there's any clear answer here. Maybe when she sees Trish visiting N at the end of ep2, but given Helen's lack of concern over other women's sexuality/preferences (much less her own defenses, as we'll soon see!) it's possible she maintained some level of obliviousness even after this. The ep3 conv with Sean is the outer limit--but points to some time before. This all seems interestingly... blurry, to me.

Helen presumably would've pulled Nikki's file at some point--but we don't see that til almost midway through the season. So she's either interpreting sociocultural information conveyed by Nikki's dress/manner (which doesn't necessarily 'read' as Lesbian to me--I thought that was part of the idea in outfitting her as 'lipstick' to begin with); has heard gossip; knows the general outline of Nikki's profile i.e. reason for incarceration; or simply... put two & two together. But when? and which two?
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abzug PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:49 pm

I always assumed that Helen just knew this information. From before ep 1. In her first weeks on the wing, as she has identified Nikki as a powerful prisoner, she has also found out information about her background and her case, and the fact that she is a lesbian is inherent in it. One of the things I like about the show is that there is no "discovery" of Nikki's lesbianism--its just an inherent part of her, not something that needs to be Revealed.

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Lisa289 PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:12 pm

abzug wrote:
I always assumed that Helen just knew this information. From before ep 1. In her first weeks on the wing, as she has identified Nikki as a powerful prisoner, she has also found out information about her background and her case, and the fact that she is a lesbian is inherent in it. One of the things I like about the show is that there is no "discovery" of Nikki's lesbianism--its just an inherent part of her, not something that needs to be Revealed.


ye thats exactly how I saw it. it was neva actually revealed as such, becoz its such a big part of who she is. like its neva "revealed" tht Shells a psycho, its jus part of who she is!! Laughing
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ekny PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:03 pm

abzug wrote:
...[T]here is no "discovery" of Nikki's lesbianism--its just an inherent part of her, not something that needs to be Revealed.


I agree provisionally re what this says to the audience about Nikki's presentation. My question is about Helen's reading of same: I feel these are different. Otherwise... this avenue of exploration is effectively closed, and (being the one to've started it) am not ready to do that yet. So although, yes, Nikki is readable to the audience as a lesbian almost immediately*, there is no reason (for me) to assume that she's readable to Helen as quickly. Nikki's appearance does not (to me) scream Dyke! (I thought that was part of the point in making her 'lipstick')--so if Helen's got no reason to be specially focused on the question of any prisoner's sexuality--and she does not--there's no reason for her to do so with Nikki. What I as (lesbian) viewer think is clear but subtle coding is in no way something I'd assume would be obvious to a straight woman like Helen because she's not looking for that information. At all. So: how does Helen arrive at her conclusions?

Hope that makes what & why I'm asking clearer: my question isn't about Nikki, it's about Helen's perceptions. Saying her lesbianism/sexuality is part of who N is is fine, & I should add an approach I appreciate as you do: it's an up-front presentation by Shed, meaning it's not an issue; uncompromised, refreshing, all good stuff, etc--but N's presentation isn't--necessarily--how Helen would become aware of same. Iow, Nikki's sexuality is not an issue except/insofar as it causes Helen to become aware of/reflect on her own. Nikki's sexuality is an issue at the level of plot--part of the reason N's treated poorly or differently in prison, etc--but not at this level of characterization: it's not problematized at all in that way because, for Nikki, it's not a problem. It's a given. The exact opposite is the case for H: it's not at all a given, it's a problem & an open question.

To that extent, the answer, though very likely indeterminate in these first episodes, continues to interest me.


(*I think the issue of Nikki's sexuality is made apparent pretty much in her first scene: the alarm-verging-on-melodrama of her crying out 'Carole!' as Sylvia blocks her attempts to get information at least suggests the possibility of an affectional/sexual engagement [I find it & the camera angle a bit OTT but it's the first 3 minutes of the show so ok, they need to grab the audience.]. The nature of Nikki & Carole's connection is clarified when Shell jeers 'Miss your good-night kiss?' & N replies, 'Don't hurt your brain'. In other words: Nikki's a friend of Carole's, not a girlfriend: she cares because she cares, something Shell's not capable of, much less capable of understanding; and yes, btw, Nikki's a dyke. I think those lines give us that set of distinctions.}


(Although--to add a last parenthetic question, sorry--I was always puzzled by the night-calls for this first ep. They're hard to make out--mainly *not* from characters who will later be recognizable as regulars, as in succeeding night calls--just a bunch of voices. Nevertheless, it seems it's Nikki who calls out 'Carole, you're gorgeous!' midway through. Bit confusing, but I understood it to be a call of support, mainly, as opposed to woo-hoo, gonna tell the world 'bout my babe kind of breast-beating. Nevertheless, we don't know enough about N at this point to be sure; thought it a bit odd of the scriptwriters, anyway.)

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abzug PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:20 pm

Quote:
if Helen's got no reason to be specially focused on the question of any prisoner's sexuality--and she does not--there's no reason for her to do so with Nikki. What I as (lesbian) viewer think is clear but subtle coding is in no way something I'd assume would be obvious to a straight woman like Helen because she's not looking for that information. At all. So: how does Helen arrive at her conclusions?

Sorry to be boring, but I still stand by my earlier statement. Helen is familiar with the crimes committed by all of her wing residents, and once she knows about Nikki's crime, she knows that Nikki is a lesbian. Nikki killed a cop for attempting to rape her girlfriend. Nikki=lesbian.

Even if Nikki & Trish's side of the story wasn't believed by the court (and therefore might not be in her "official" file), its still part of the known narrative of her crime. We see evidence of this time and time again, most explicitly when Caroline indicates that everyone in the prison knows Nikki killed a cop to protect her girlfriend. So I feel with certainty that Helen was aware of the attack on Trish as Nikki's motivation, and therefore was aware of Nikki's sexuality.

Since the above theory doesn't seem quite satisfying to you, when do YOU think Helen learns Nikki is a lesbian? Smile

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stunning_simone PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:51 pm

i thought that helen knew al along coz she read her file

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ekny PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 10:45 pm

I don't know or have a theory about when Helen 'knew', as I said I think the answer's indeterminite. But if you look at her early scenes with Nikki I think are several good reasons for asking, even if there's no clear answer.

I began wondering about it when N was in solitary. My initial question was, is Helen aware of/using this information in any way? Is it there in her comment about the 'old boys network', for example? To put it grossly: is Helen performing the moral equivalent of clasping her hands together so as to show off her cleavage to get what she wants: is she using the idea that Nikki's lesbianism predisposes N to a certain type of feminist attitude/bias in order to come to terms with her? Obviously, I think the answer's a clear NO, that Helen wouldn't behave that way even if she knew: by asking, however, it tells us (me) something about what kind of behavior is in fact occurring here, how & why it differs from other, later behavior, etc.

To me, Helen's not 'using' that information, regardless--but I don't believe that means the question's not a helpful tool.


(Saying it's common knowledge for a new & rather overwhelmed Wing Gov as we see HS to be, initially, assumes a more extensive knowledge on her part of the particularities of 90-some crimes than I am comfortable doing. Why assume anything? Wouldn't it be just as reasonable to 'assume' maybe sometime in episode 2 or early in 3 Helen figures, hm, if Nikki's some kind of self-selected spokesperson for the other women on the wing, & is as bright as she appears to be, perhaps then I should familiarize myself with the particuars of her case, see if I can get some ideas how to approach this disciplinary problem. And I still see no evidence for that.

Iow, Helen's busy as sh*te: she'd need a reason to bother & even then, she's interrupted 172 times a day with crises, things to sign, meetings, calls, all that. She's got administrative stuff to do all day long we never see. Those 90 women are her primary charge but hardly her only duty. Maybe she thinks of it but never gets around to it: we don't know.

As it happens--we don't see her ask for Nikki's file until ep five--and I didn't have any particular impression one way or that other that she'd looked at it before: she was barely familiar with the filing system in the officer's space.)


If Helen's not using her charms on Nikki--and I don't think she is--and is not aware Nikki's a dyke, or more to the point working that information in any conscious way (same diff)--then it makes her reference to the old boys' network different. They're already in collusion here, after a single private meeting: about what is worth asking.


Or (trying to rephrase...): the question's abt plot & story. It's not an issue in Nikki's plot, so it's passed over. We can't make any assumptions about it because we have insufficient data. It's an important question--but in a different argument, i.e. it's not made explicit because it's part of Helen's story.


So... what I'm trying to say is, before it's on the table--it's not, that's all. Ok. Helen negotiates with everyone--with Yvonne, later, who's totally straight--she does her cut-the-crap stuff: she's mirroring. To Thomas she speaks of matters clinical; with Fenner & Bodybag she lays down the law. The discussion w/N in ep1 is still 'public' even though they're one-on-one in that cell. And Nikki's lesbianism isn't part of any calculated consideration on Helen's part. I thought that was worth exploring.

It gets personal incrementally with Nikki--but once Helen's asked her the question in the library scene, it's always personal after that.

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song_stress PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 10:55 pm

I always thought the "old boy network" comment was in reference to Nikki's leadership abilities on the wing.
I know there are assumptions about HS reading Nikki's file, but I never thought that Helen had to address the issue personally until she found out that Trish had broken up with Nikki.
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ekny PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:06 pm

song_stress wrote:
I always thought the "old boy network" comment was in reference to Nikki's leadership abilities on the wing.
I know there are assumptions about HS reading Nikki's file, but I never thought that Helen had to address the issue personally until she found out that Trish had broken up with Nikki.


Yeah, that's part of my point: each one of these possibilities or variables introduces other or different interpretations! ;)

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:16 am

When does H figure out N's a lesbian?
I have to agree with abzug here. I think that Helen is conscientious enough, and determined enough to prove herself in her job, to have made herself familiar with the crimes of the women in her care. She is clearly not averse to taking her work home with her, Sean even makes the point about the interest which she takes in the women. Nikki's crime is clearly one that would stand out - she is after all "the only woman serving life for killing a policeman" according to Claire, so Helen would have taken note of her more so than of a junkie or a shop-lifter for example.

She may even have had a meeting with her senior officers to find out who they thought were the ones to watch out for - the problem cases, as initially she seems to be on quite friendly terms with Fenner. I think even if she didn't know about Nikki before the confrontation on the wing, she certainly would have familiarized herself with her details before going down the block to speak to her - forewarned is forearmed.

I certainly think that it is perfectly possible that she does assume a certain feminist attitude on Nikki's part, but not only because she is a lesbian, but also because Nikki has clearly already demonstrated on the wing, the attitude which she has to authority in general. Helen simply gives that authority a label, in calling it the Old Boys Network, she is broadcasting her own feminist attitude and calling on Nikki to ally herself and the other women, with Helen as a woman, I don't think there is anything sinister in that. But she is clearly looking for ways to get through to Nikki, as is evidenced when she says to Sean that maybe her interest in gardening is one way of getting through to her; she has worked out early on that she is a good person to have on side - again I don't have a problem with that. I think her attitude to lesbianism in general (her shrug to Sean when he mentions it), means that she wouldn't be patronizing enough to assume that she could get what she wants out of Nikki by a metaphoric show of cleavage.

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abzug PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:30 am

And, to add one other thing to JAMBF's very articulate post, recall Sean's line when they are potting plants: "Isn't she a lesbian?" or some such thing. Which means by episode 2, Helen has already been aware of Nikki's lesbianism long enough that she's actually spoken with Sean about it.

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ekny PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 2:12 am

abzug wrote:
And, to add one other thing to JAMBF's very articulate post, recall Sean's line when they are potting plants: "Isn't she a lesbian?" or some such thing. Which means by episode 2, Helen has already been aware of Nikki's lesbianism long enough that she's actually spoken with Sean about it.


I agree with all of JAMBF's general points about Helen & how she probably approached & viewed the problem Nikki presented. The exchange w/Sean, I *think*, takes place towards the end of ep3....

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LateToTheParty PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:14 am

Helen and Sean's Exchange Re Nikki
EKNY wrote:

The exchange w/Sean, I *think*, takes place towards the end of ep3....

Actually, it's toward the end of episode 2. See the clips collected at:

http://www.xnedrabourne.com/NikkiHelen/NikkiHelenVids.htm

It's the one called "Sean points out the obvious."
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Xenclair PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:57 am



*LOL*

As a CT resident I do add my apology.

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HuskiesFan PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:09 am

Xenclair wrote:


*LOL*

As a CT resident I do add my apology.


Ditto my thoughts.... Very Happy

Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:26 pm

When does H figure out N's a lesbian?
To add to abzug's point about Helen having already spoken to Sean about Nikki's being a lesbian by the end of Ep 2; not only has she spoken to him, but she has obviously spoken about Nikki on several occasions, often enough for Sean to make the comment that "this one's becoming an obsession". Is there not ekny, perhaps something in the point which you said (on the Series 4 thread) that your friend made, that "on (some) level she is looking for a lesbian"?

It is almost as though her interest in Nikki is piqued, maybe subconsciously, or perhaps she is even already aware of an (perhaps to her at this stage) inexplicable curiosity about Nikki's lesbianism. She keeps coming back to the subject of Nikki, obsessively, because she can't keep away (a bit like us with this board!),because she is experiencing different feelings about her, which she hasn't experienced before, and needs to vocalize her interest on some level. Perhaps it is a bit like the comment which I think Chad made on the Episode 10 commentary track, about why she tells Sean that Nikki tried to drag her into her cell and kiss her, that she is testing the water here, trying to get some response from Sean, hear his thoughts on the subject, in order to perhaps make better sense of her own.

Maybe his comment that Nikki is becoming an obsession, rather than jolting her out of her curiosity, causes her to examine it more closely. To the extent that her next step is to broach the topic with Nikki in the library.Which is really quite an extraordinary thing for her to do, it is the sort of thing you might ask a close friend of yours, not a prisoner in your care, whose private life and sexual proclivities are essentially just that, private. But she can't keep away from it, it draws her like a moth to a flame. She hasn't had any satisfactory response from Sean and his response hasn't jolted her out of it,so, to quote The Rocky Horror Show abzug, "I've got an itch to scratch, I need assistance"! Who better to scratch her itch than the object of her obsession!

(Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with when H figures out N's a lesbian, but I thought it followed on from it!)

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abzug PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:41 pm

Quote:
The Rocky Horror Show abzug, "I've got an itch to scratch, I need assistance"! Who better to scratch her itch than the object of her obsession!

(Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with when H figures out N's a lesbian, but I thought it followed on from it!)

Never apologize for bringing up musical theatre. It has so many insights into human nature. Smile

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ekny PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:28 pm

Re: Helen and Sean's Exchange Re Nikki
LateToTheParty wrote:
EKNY wrote:

The exchange w/Sean, I *think*, takes place towards the end of ep3....


Quote:
Actually, it's toward the end of episode 2.


Hi, LTTP Abzug & JAMBF. With respect, the exchange takes place as I said, almost at the end of episode 3, not 2. 33.30. --e

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LateToTheParty PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:53 pm

Re: Helen and Sean's Exchange Re Nikki
Well, ekny, I don't have my DVDs readily to hand, but I'll take your word for it, and I (not to mention Larkhall Projector Room) stand corrected.

Since posting that link last night, I'd actually been wondering if you were right all along, because episode 2 struck me as a bit too early for "that one's becoming an obsession."

LTTP Smile
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ekny PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:09 am

Re: Helen and Sean's Exchange Re Nikki
LateToTheParty wrote:
Well, ekny, I don't have my DVDs readily to hand, but I'll take your word for it, and I (not to mention Larkhall Projector Room) stand corrected.


Larkhall Projector room is a very helpful page for viewing snippets, esp as they're in wmv files as I recall so you can actually see them on your screen at work, but they are just bits & pieces, & the labeling seemed off to me in several places.

LateToTheParty wrote:
Since posting that link last night, I'd actually been wondering if you were right all along, because episode 2 struck me as a bit too early for "that one's becoming an obsession."


That's why I was so puzzled people seemed to be sure it was earlier. I'd checked before I posted, checked again after people wrote it was 2, checked again (in case I was hallucinating)... you know. But yeah, I think placing the scene in 2 would've been way too early, a bit clumsy. And if there's one thing the development of the N/H relationship is not... it's that. ; ) --e

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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:24 am

Wow!! Shocked
This wuz so strange because I wanted to post the same question!!! I have re-watched, etc. trying to find out this very thing!! I have not been able to find an answer, and so ... wanted input form y'all!!! Still searching ..... Wink

GG
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ekny PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:48 am

GeauxGurl wrote:
Wow!! :shock:
This wuz so strange because I wanted to post the same question!!! I have re-watched, etc. trying to find out this very thing!! I have not been able to find an answer, and so ... wanted input form y'all!!! Still searching ..... ;)


Makes 2 of us, anyway. ; )

I guess others mainly seemed to feel it was either "From Day One" or "None of the Above". The impression I got was: since we can't ever really know--or already do know--why ask, no big deal, but I'm probably just not understanding something obvious; wouldn't be the first time.

It seemed an interesting question, even if it's not possible to answer it. Maybe because it's not possible to answer it; there's still a good reason or analysis lurking. Somewhere. Or maybe it's just phrased wrong & I should have a rethink.

Dunno, a little flummoxed. --e


so: *why* did you want to know, i.e. how did you start thinking about this, what made you wonder? Like: I started wondering--not for the first time--when considering Helen's 'old boys network' gambit. So... if you can trace those steps, maybe it'll help, add some new idea here or something. I'm not ready to abandon this lil puppy just yet.

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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 5:24 am

[quote="ekny"]


so: *why* did you want to know, i.e. how did you start thinking about this, what made you wonder? [quote]

Umm ... I think that I really wondered about it when Helen & Sean were "potting plants" and he asks "anyway, didn't you say she's a lesbian?" and Helen answers, "Yeah, she is."
How does she know?? Or more importantly, did she "search" to find the answer? Did she become "curious" about Nikki after that first confrontational meeting, or did she know before that?? They never do really make it clear, and it was driving me nuts trying to figure it out!! In fact, I can't even remember when I knew it as an audience member!!! I mean, I knew because I had found out about the story line before hand, but I never even thought about it as I watched it for the first time. It was just a "given" to me, and now I'm just not satisfied with that. Wink

GG
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ekny PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 5:42 am

GeauxGurl wrote:
How does she know?? Or more importantly, did she "search" to find the answer? Did she become "curious" about Nikki after that first confrontational meeting, or did she know before that?? They never do really make it clear, and it was driving me nuts trying to figure it out!! In fact, I can't even remember when I knew it as an audience member!!! [...] It was just a "given" to me, and now I'm just not satisfied with that. ;)


I mentioned in my second post in this thread (second to last paragraph), I did feel they made Nikki's sexuality if not crystal clear immediately, at least an open question--and that Shell with her nasty comments soon confirms this, warning Rachel off Nikki & that kind of thing. But the whole initial concern over Carol(e?), with Shell saying 'Miss your goodnight kiss?" suggested pretty clearly to me, even if Nikki wasn't going out with Carole & was simply concerned for her health, she was a dyke. So that was confirmed early, it *was* a given--to other inmates. But it still doesn't begin to answer your questions (or mine) about how/when Helen put it together.

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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 7:43 am

ekny wrote:
But it still doesn't begin to answer your questions (or mine) about how/when Helen put it together.


Thank you very much!!!
I just can't stand unanswered questions!!! Wink

Just like a puzzle ~~~ I will find that lost piece ~~under the sofa, stuck to the underside of a glass, etc. ~~~ but I will find it!!! Wink

GG
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abzug PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:38 pm

ekny wrote:
so: *why* did you want to know, i.e. how did you start thinking about this, what made you wonder? Like: I started wondering--not for the first time--when considering Helen's 'old boys network' gambit. So... if you can trace those steps, maybe it'll help, add some new idea here or something. I'm not ready to abandon this lil puppy just yet.

I'm more interested in this aspect of the question; ie what motivated Helen to try to connect with Nikki this way? I agree with whoeever suggested Helen was unconsciously looking for a lesbian. But I think in Helen's mind she was looking for a prisoner who could join her in forming an anti-Fenner force. And while I don't remember episode 1 well enough (its been months since I've seen it), I am certain Helen knew of the animosity between Nikki and Fenner. Perhaps it wasn't even depicted on screen, but it still would have been part of the observable and obvious dynamics in the wing. So Helen's immediate, conscious interest in (and identification with) Nikki would have been as a fellow feminist, deeply concerned about the treatment of women, etc.

I still think Helen knew Nikki was a lesbian from day 1, but in her conscious mind made it a non-issue: not the reason she's interested in Nikki, not a motivator for any of her strategies in pursuing Nikki etc. That's why she's so naive in her flirtation with Nikki in episode 6--she still doesn't *really* think that there's a difference between how a lesbian like Nikki will respond to her interest and how a straight prisoner would respond to her interest.

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song_stress PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:44 pm

abzug wrote:
That's why she's so naive in her flirtation with Nikki in episode 6--she still doesn't *really* think that there's a difference between how a lesbian like Nikki will respond to her interest and how a straight prisoner would respond to her interest.


Good point abzug
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mercy23 PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:18 am

Though I don't see any obvious signs that Helen knew that Nikki's a lesbian, I assume that she does know and this bit of info is irrelevant to her...up until the library scene.
Bear with me while I try to make some sort of point...

I got the impression that Helen initially sought out Nikki's help after recognizing Nikki as a leader (the Carole incident and subsequent confrontation during the wing meeting with the prisoners) and meeting with her on the block (the "old boys network" conversation).
Helen, at this point had no real emotional connection to Nikki - she was consciously working to win Nikki as an ally.
When Nikki addresses the wing - taking responsibility for getting the show cancelled and promising they (the prisoners) would do their best - we see Helen smile and walk away. She seemed not only satisified by Nikki's announcement but particularly pleased by how she worded it. Perhaps this is the first spark of attraction on Helen's part - though not a conscious one?
Soon after we have the raid on Nikki's cell by the DST squad and try as she might to put things right with Nikki (still assuming that Helen's interest in Nikki is consciously a professional one - Nikki's responses to Helen are less than friendly. Thereafter, Helen gets several brush-offs from Nikki and we viewers are still led to believe that she's pursuing Nikki as an ally - "for professional reasons" up until her "she's-becoming-an-obsession" conversation with Sean - where we viewers sit back and go "hmmm...is Helen romantically interested in Nikki?, and does she know she's attracted to Nikki?"

To avoid turning this into a hideously long post....I think that Helen became consciously aware of her attraction to Nikki during the library scene.
She's asking Nikki what she believes to be "innocent" questions about her sexuality and there's a moment there when Helen looks up at Nikki and her (Helen's) expression changes - an "a-ha!" moment for Helen, perhaps?
Their relationship seems to run quite a bit smoother after this exchange and I can't help but wonder if it's because Helen now fully realizes her attraction to Nikki - but continues to file it away under "professional reasons"?

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ekny PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:41 am

mercy23 wrote:
[...]we viewers are still led to believe that she's pursuing Nikki as an ally - "for professional reasons" up until her "she's-becoming-an-obsession" conversation with Sean - where we viewers sit back and go "hmmm...is Helen romantically interested in Nikki?, and does she know she's attracted to Nikki?"


Hi & thanks for your thoughts, I agree that the scene where Sean annouces Helen's interest is certainly the point at which the audience is directed to Sit Up and Take Notice. ;)

mercy23 wrote:
I think that Helen became consciously aware of her attraction to Nikki during the library scene.
She's asking Nikki what she believes to be "innocent" questions about her sexuality and there's a moment there when Helen looks up at Nikki and her (Helen's) expression changes - an "a-ha!" moment for Helen, perhaps?
Their relationship seems to run quite a bit smoother after this exchange and I can't help but wonder if it's because Helen now fully realizes her attraction to Nikki - but continues to file it away under "professional reasons"?


For me it's less clear cut, esp given what we've seen of Helen's ability to deny what's going on; surely if there was an Olympic event in Compartmentalization she'd be in the running for a medal. If she 'realizes' it but then unrealizes it by filing it away... then that's arguably not entirely conscious; hard to say. Maybe she wants it gone because it feels a bit too immediate, or maybe she dismisses it as just one of those things. I certainly agree (with probably everyone) that Helen has a wonderfully slackjawed moment just taking in the sheer appeal of Her Nikkiness when she loses the plot during the library scene, but what she does with that moment internally isn't so clear. It can't be, given that this is a drama, not a novel--and a very understated drama, not one where people go around annoucing their Feelings to all & sundry: novels allow us to peek into people's state of mind, but it's something that this sort of modern tv drama, unless it indulges in voice-over narration, isn't about to do. Thank goodness.

By the time of the potting shed scene she's more or less managed to tuck whatever-it-was away, imo. In fact you could argue that Nikki's clear statement of interest allows Helen a way to displace her own. I believe she's entirely capable of registering that moment of recognition in the library: oh, she *is* attractive, ok, I get it, I can see what Someone Else might see in her--but as a blip on the radar; nothing to get into a tizzy about, just a thing she's noted & then dismissed: Nikki might be interested, but 'that's not me' kinda thing. Brush hands, mentally walk away--she's effectively done it by the end of the scene, where she looks at Oranges, frowns, & puts it back. Which is pretty much just what she's done in her head with the whole interaction: shelved it. Enough, at any rate, so that she's able to go in to the potting shed demanding What's All This About Then & feeling totally justified in doing so. A bit of overkill in the oblivion department, yah, but it still suggests to me that she's been pretty content to cruise along in flirt-mode without acknowledging it as such. That, she likes. But thinking about the possible implications is not something she's comfortable dwelling on. Solution: don't Dwell.


Part of what I think I'm asking is a more general sort of question along the lines of What Did Helen Know and When Did She Know It?; hearing other people's views is very helpful because everyone's got a slightly different take on the matter. And identifying this sort of split consciousness/awareness is very difficult.

It's especially interesting (for me) to look at the very early interactions for... I don't know, subliminal traces of interest; so for example most everyone marks Helen's pursuit of Nikki outside the showers as Interest on Helen's part--of what kind isn't 100% clear (simply personal? budding attraction?)--but of a completely unconscious variety. (And Nikki shoots her down, as you say, repeatedly during these exchanges: Nikki's still 'with' Trish in her head and doesn't have a reason to notice Helen's interest as anything but a somewhat unwelcome pursuit towards an alliance Nikki's got to feel offers her very little. Becoming cozy with the new Gov is *not* part of N's survival strategy.)

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ekny PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:03 am

abzug wrote:
I'm more interested in this aspect of the question; ie what motivated Helen to try to connect with Nikki this way? I agree with whoeever suggested Helen was unconsciously looking for a lesbian. But I think in Helen's mind she was looking for a prisoner who could join her in forming an anti-Fenner force. [...] So Helen's immediate, conscious interest in (and identification with) Nikki would have been as a fellow feminist, deeply concerned about the treatment of women, etc.


I agree with these observations, consciously it's about professional concern for Women, plural.

abzug wrote:
I still think Helen knew Nikki was a lesbian from day 1, but in her conscious mind made it a non-issue: not the reason she's interested in Nikki, not a motivator for any of her strategies in pursuing Nikki etc. That's why she's so naive in her flirtation with Nikki in episode 6--she still doesn't *really* think that there's a difference between how a lesbian like Nikki will respond to her interest and how a straight prisoner would respond to her interest.


That's a good distinction, thanks! In a way that insight isn't about Helen's sexuality but her politics: she believes in treating the prisoners equally because she sees them in the same light, as needing the same care, lookout for their rights, etc.--and her absense of prejudice (unlike Fenner & Co.) means, from that perspective, it's just Nikki, who by dint of both her default status as unofficial spokesperson with leadership qualities as well as her obvious intelligence, is the logical go-to person. Because whatever else Helen understood during that first big confrontation scene, I think she totally got it when Nikki said You can't run this prison without our help. Helen's no dummy: the person who says it so clearly is the person to try to make a pact with. And once she gets more comfortable with Nikki and they make some headway, she's easy enough with her simply because she likes her to loosen up a bit--without necessarily acknowledging anything else to herself: she's gay, I'm straight, we're friends. Simple, eh.

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:12 am

S1:E1
Really enjoyed reading this thread it's raised some very interesting points that l'd forgotten about or not considered before!!!

I had always thought that a spark was ignited in Helen during that encounter on the floor of G-Wing...but then as has been said it got filed away, as did all their other enounters and exchanges. She then naively dirfted along in flirt mode trying to gain Nikki as an ally, while the 'Nikki' compartment in her mental filing cabinet got more and more full....until the potting shed..when everything crashed in.

However what I don't remember being resolved[it may have been discussed on here before of course] was how long Helen had been Wing Governor before S2:E1

I get the feeling she hadn't been around that long judging by Fenner and Holomby's derogatory remarks..but long enough to read the inmates files and get a 'feel' for the women, as someone said earlier tune into the dynamics of the wing...??

So had she clocked Nikki before?

It would be difficult to miss a strident stroppy Wade, who had obviously often been in trouble prior to Helen's arrival. Had she idely looked out of her office window and caught site of a tall dark gardener.
It would be interesting to know who her predecessor was ~an old boy network type? Or an idealist like herself but who quickly gave up?

Had Nikki noticed Helen beofre? Had she seen the suited Scot pass through at any time?

Or was their enounter in Ep1 really the very first time they'd seen each other...

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Dockley PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:11 am

This is an interesting thread...made me think (What an acheivement! Laughing )

As for the original question of when Helen knew that Nikki was gay...well the fact that she could have picked it up from looking at her file is plausible, as new as the other staff members make her out to be, she could have had the the job as Wing Governor for months. As my dear old Dad pointed out to me, someone can still be considered 'green' in the prison service for years! And the fact that she is young and a woman doesn't help! (My Dad is actually quite interesting to talk to about Bad Girls, he's a Governor of a womans prison! LOL!)

But if I'm going to go for the general belief that Helen has only been in the job for a few weeks and hasn't had time to look at Nikki's file personally, well there is a much simpler way she could of picked it up...from her staff!
It is well known from the start that Nikki is seen as a trouble maker, and as 'helpful' as Jim Fenner is at the start, he could have made a point to Helen to watch out for 'that trouble maker Wade' and as colourful as he is with his language, I wouldn't put is past him to mention that Nikki is 'a cop killing dyke'

The other thing that has made me think (*gasp!*) with this thread, is the scene where Helen and Sean are potting the plants in the living room...somebody mentioned earlier that Helen mentions using gardening as a way to get Nikki on her side.
Hmmm...well to be honest I actually never saw this scene that way! Let me try to explain...
I know it seems like the conversation about gardening is what makes Helen think of Nikki, but these next lines made my ears prick up...
Sean: "Shut up with all those sex starved women!?"
Helen: "They're not all that sex starved" (Basically Helen is acknowledging lesbian activity on the wing)
Sean: "Go on shatter my dreams"
(Notice how Helen looks up suddenly as if she's just realised something)
Helen: "Maybe thats the way in?"
Sean: "Come again?"
Helen: "There's this woman on the wing, she'd be a great allie amongst the inmates if I could get her on my side...Trouble is I've tried everything and she's not interested..(Notice aswell how she is staring into space when she talks about Nikki, and almost as an afterthought turns to Sean and mentions that "She's into gardening")

The fact that Sean says that Nikki is becoming an obsession is important, and subconciously obviously important to Sean because he feels the need to confirm to himself (And maybe Helen too) that she does infact prefer her gardeners 'to wear y-fronts'

But anyway, I digress...I always saw that scene as Helen realising one of the things she could use to try and get Nikki on her side, her feminine wiles!
And she does, not long after that episode, start flirting so very deliberately with Nikki!
She also uses the same tactic with Dominic, when he wants to hand in his notice..."I have been known for my persuasive powers!"

------------------

abzug PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:54 pm

Hey, I brought this post in from another thread, since we seem to be addressing the topic over here instead.

mercy23 wrote:
So, what are your thoughts on the library scene I mentioned above (or has this already been hashed over in another thread?)
I watched that scene again and now I'm wondering if the expression on Helen's face is because it's just dawned on her that Nikki is a true-blue, dyed-in-the-wool lesbian, rather than a "temporary" one because she's locked up with other women?

My reading of this scene has always been that its the first time Helen is admitting her curiosity about lesbianism. I don't think she thought Nikki was a "temporary" lesbian (she knows Nikki was with Trish for nine years--remember the "Don't you wish it was electric?" scene in the previous episode). I think she's just trying to get her head around what its like to be a lesbian. At this point its hard for her to fathom a woman who's "never been interested in men" at all.

Which seems a bit strange to me--for someone who's clearly not homophobic at all, why does this concept confuse her? Many lesbians have never had any interest in men whatsoever. Maybe we're supposed to read this as reflecting Helen's identification with Nikki. She has been thinking Nikki is much like her, and hence she's surprised that Nikki is totally different in this very fundamental way (ie she's a woman who has never been interested in men). Alternatively, perhaps this is just another of Helen's gambits, a way to start a conversation on a subject she is finding very intriguing.

As for the expression on Helen's face, well, I've always thought this scene is one of the most emotionally simple scenes in the whole three seasons. It works incredibly effectively as simple flirtation--its incredibly well-written, but not that ambiguous in terms of what is going on. I don't think there is a lot there to analyze in terms of a certain look that Helen gives Nikki, because in my mind there is desire coming from both of them, unconsciously from Helen, and consciously from Nikki. And that's that. I don't even think Helen's desire is combined with conflict or confusion, because she doesn't know what's going on yet.

I also think that Helen doesn't look in any way uncomfortable when she tells Nikki she's not interested in women "not in that way" (I have seen many writers describe Helen as uncomfortable in this moment)--I think she is sort of half-laughing at the absurdity of the thought. Nor do I think she frowns or in any way looks unhappy when she's replacing the book on the shelf--she's still in Slightly Bemused mode, imo. But I do agree that she's "shelved" this particular train of thought for the time being--nice image on the part of the writers, isn't it? (Thanks for pointing it out, ekny.)

Dockley wrote:
The other thing that has made me think (*gasp!*) with this thread, is the scene where Helen and Sean are potting the plants in the living room...somebody mentioned earlier that Helen mentions using gardening as a way to get Nikki on her side.
Hmmm...well to be honest I actually never saw this scene that way! Let me try to explain...
I know it seems like the conversation about gardening is what makes Helen think of Nikki, but these next lines made my ears prick up...
Sean: "Shut up with all those sex starved women!?"
Helen: "They're not all that sex starved" (Basically Helen is acknowledging lesbian activity on the wing)
Sean: "Go on shatter my dreams"
(Notice how Helen looks up suddenly as if she's just realised something)
Helen: "Maybe thats the way in?"
Sean: "Come again?"
Helen: "There's this woman on the wing, she'd be a great allie amongst the inmates if I could get her on my side...Trouble is I've tried everything and she's not interested..(Notice aswell how she is staring into space when she talks about Nikki, and almost as an afterthought turns to Sean and mentions that "She's into gardening")
[...]
But anyway, I digress...I always saw that scene as Helen realising one of the things she could use to try and get Nikki on her side, her feminine wiles!

The scene is definitely written so that dual interpretations are possible--is Helen talking about gardening or sexual seduction? But I think its also pretty clear that Helen is not aware of the double entendre--in her mind she is truly referring to gardening, not to sex. Its like wonderfully naive and dim on Helen's part. That's the beauty of the way the scene is written--Helen's subconscious is going There, and we viewers are aware of it long before she is.

------------------
GeauxGurl PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:50 pm

abzug wrote:


Dockley wrote:

But anyway, I digress...I always saw that scene as Helen realising one of the things she could use to try and get Nikki on her side, her feminine wiles!



The scene is definitely written so that dual interpretations are possible--is Helen talking about gardening or sexual seduction? But I think its also pretty clear that Helen is not aware of the double entendre--in her mind she is truly referring to gardening, not to sex. Its like wonderfully naive and dim on Helen's part. That's the beauty of the way the scene is written--Helen's subconscious is going There, and we viewers are aware of it long before she is.



Nice!!! Very nice ~~~ Very Happy
But ya know, it does appear that Helen begins to flirt with Nikki right about that time ~~~

_________________

mercy23 PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:28 pm

Very good points, ekny!!
I'm just so smitten by the library scene that I'll build any old theory around it just to talk about it again!
Very Happy
We may have missed the obvious as far as when Helen knew Nikki is a lesbian - Nikki had told Monica that her killing the cop " was all over the papers" (I assume here the newspapers also printed that she was protectiong her lesbian lover)...so Helen may have known for some time before they even met who Nikki Wade is!
I agree with you about how Helen compartmentalizes (just about everything) - it's a wonder she can get anything done when half the time, her "right hand doesn't know what her left hand is doing".

abzug- you're right!! I forgot about the "electric chair" scene!! Well, that shoots that theory out of the water! Laughing

Dockley - I also like your idea about Helen using her "powers of persuasion" aka flirting with Nikki to bring her into the fold. Makes me wonder if this is how she justifies her currently "compartmentalized" attraction to Nikki...flirting for professional reasons.
You just go ahead and tell yourself that, Helen!! heh...
_________________

ekny PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:52 pm

mercy23 wrote:
you're right!! I forgot about the "electric chair" scene!! Well, that shoots that theory out of the water!


Hiya, fwiw, the issues I was originally bringing up are eps1-3; the electric chair scene is 5, I'm pretty certain.

So... what *does* your father have to say about running a women's prison? That should be awfully interesting to hear, esp how he thinks the presentation brings across basic issues or not. Do tell! --e

btw, abzug--I spent god knows how long looking for that thread last night, the closest I could find was your post on page 2 of the Dominic thread but I wasn't sure if that was the one you'd been thinking of so didn't quote it here. Poot. I tried?!

------------------

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:45 am

ekny wrote:
btw, abzug--I spent god knows how long looking for that thread last night, the closest I could find was your post on page 2 of the Dominic thread but I wasn't sure if that was the one you'd been thinking of so didn't quote it here. Poot. I tried?!

Mercy23 had posted in the "Eureka" thread (the one about the final scene), but the discussion of the library scene had already taken off here, so I quoted her from the other thread, but posted it here. That was all. As for the Dominic thread, I think that was the one where I talked about Helen's isolation in season 3, so the Dominic thread was the one I was looking for when I posted today in the Claire's biography thread. Boy, I don't know how I keep it all straight anymore!

-------------

hetane PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:57 am

I thought the same thing Mercy23, that Nikki Wade Lesby Cop Killer was all over the papers. That's why she was on the news when she got ou. The less famous criminals who were released, Crystal, Denny's mom, they got no media attention. Monica was also a "famous" criminal who was on the news at her release. So, I always figured Helen knew Nikki was a famous lesby cop killer like everyone else in UK did.

The scene in the library, you guys pointed this out somewhere on the board, that Helen may have been seeing Nikki as beautiful for the first time. I went back and wtched it after someone wrote that and I was like, "yeah, it looks like Helen sees the beauty of Nikki for the first time."

Let me ask this (hope this question can go here) would it have been more defining of the character Helen if instead of putting the copy of 'Other fruit than Oranges' (or whatever the title of the book is) back on the shelf, would it have been more defining if she would have held onto it and walked out of the library with it instead of putting it back on the shelf? We would not have had to have seen her with it again, just the act of her leaving the library with it could have been interesting.

------------------

mercy23 PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:06 am

ekny wrote:
mercy23 wrote:
you're right!! I forgot about the "electric chair" scene!! Well, that shoots that theory out of the water!


Hiya, fwiw, the issues I was originally bringing up are eps1-3; the electric chair scene is 5, I'm pretty certain.



eps1-3? Wow...you're gonna make me work hard for this one, aren't ya! Very Happy
And the electric chair is in epi 5, eh? I guess I haven't memorized the scenes as well as I thought I had!
_________________

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:55 am

hetane wrote:
Let me ask this (hope this question can go here) would it have been more defining of the character Helen if instead of putting the copy of 'Other fruit than Oranges' (or whatever the title of the book is) back on the shelf, would it have been more defining if she would have held onto it and walked out of the library with it instead of putting it back on the shelf? We would not have had to have seen her with it again, just the act of her leaving the library with it could have been interesting.

It definitely would have been more defining, but Helen wasn't ready to be defined at this point. She wasn't anywhere close to even being aware that she needed to be defined. So if she had taken the book, she would have been jumping ahead to where she winds up in the final episode of season 1, where she kind of tries on the idea of she and Nikki in a relationship when she tells Sean (in her distorted way) about the kiss. As ekny mentioned, she has to "shelve" the book (and metaphorically, her burgeoning, barely-there, still-mostly-repressed feelings) at this point. She doesn't have room to even consider it.

PS The title is "Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit" by Jeanette Winterson. Its a great autobiographical novel about growing up as a lesbian with a fundamentalist Christian mother, and you should definitely read it, if you haven't yet. Very telling book for Nikki to offer to Helen, given Helen's own religious family (which Nikki is probably not aware of, but the writers of the show were). Also significant b/c if you weren't a lesbian viewer, you might not have known what the book was about, so in a way it was one of those aspects of the show which were specifically communicating with the lesbian viewer as the viewer in the cultural know. Very different from most tv programs and films, which communicate with straight male viewers as the default.
------------------

mercy23 PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:34 am

abzug wrote:

Also significant b/c if you weren't a lesbian viewer, you might not have known what the book was about, so in a way it was one of those aspects of the show which were specifically communicating with the lesbian viewer as the viewer in the cultural know. Very different from most tv programs and films, which communicate with straight male viewers as the default.


Aahhh...yes, you're right!!! I really like how you pick up on these details, abzug!!

_________________

GeauxGurl PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:51 am

mercy23 wrote:
abzug wrote:

Also significant b/c if you weren't a lesbian viewer, you might not have known what the book was about, so in a way it was one of those aspects of the show which were specifically communicating with the lesbian viewer as the viewer in the cultural know. Very different from most tv programs and films, which communicate with straight male viewers as the default.


Aahhh...yes, you're right!!! I really like how you pick up on these details, abzug!!


Wow!!! Shocked Yes ~~ I didn't even think about the "straight" audience watching and possibly not catching the "Oranges" thingy!!!! Hmmm .....
Once again, making me think ~~~ and I LUV it!!!! Wink

Thanks!!!
_________________

Dockley PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:32 am

mercy23 wrote:
Dockley - I also like your idea about Helen using her "powers of persuasion" aka flirting with Nikki to bring her into the fold. Makes me wonder if this is how she justifies her currently "compartmentalized" attraction to Nikki...flirting for professional reasons.
You just go ahead and tell yourself that, Helen!! heh...


Very Happy Very Happy
Helen does strike me as the type of person who has used her powers of persuasion in the past to great effect, though probably never with lesbian women before!
There is nothing wrong with a little bit of innocent flirting, and I don't think she expected Nikki to take it quite so literally! And she definately didn't expect to feel something back! Wink Rolling Eyes

ekny wrote:
So... what *does* your father have to say about running a women's prison? That should be awfully interesting to hear, esp how he thinks the presentation brings across basic issues or not. Do tell! --e


One of the main things my dad usually brings up when I talk to him about his job is his concern about male PO's working too closely with women prisoners, he has made every effort since starting this job last year, to reduce his male workforce and bring in female PO's...but its not easy for him.

And in reference to Bad Girls...Helen doesn't half get his back up! LOL! Laughing

Though ironically (And something I find quite hilarious) its not because she's having an affair with a prisoner!...Its because she got promoted so quickly! Rolling Eyes Laughing

Last edited by Dockley on Tue May 09, 2006 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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hetane PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:43 am

ABZUG wrote Helen wasn't ready to be defined...

Ah, good way to view that. I am wondering since I am one of those who "came out of the womb" knowing I was a lesbian if I have trouble "getting" Helen at all because I cannot relate to the straight to gay struggle. Hmmm. Or maybe I just don't like the way Simone played her or maybe it was the writing but I just struggle with this character all the way around. Dunno.

At leat with new insights I can go back and view Helen with some grsap of the character.

------------------

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 1:47 pm

BG stats
Geauxgirl wrote:~~

Quote:
Wow!!! Yes ~~ I didn't even think about the "straight" audience watching and possibly not catching the "Oranges" thingy!!!! Hmmm .....
Once again, making me think ~~~ and I LUV it!!!!

Thanks!!!


At it's peak 9m people watched BG.

Guesstimations:~

Of that 9m maybe 8,900,000 were straight??
Of that 8.9m 2 or 3million *may* have seen BBC2's adapation of OANTOF, so it *may* have rung a bell with some of them??
A few thousand others may have known of the book from hanging out in Waterstone's??

So the messages/hints/subtext or what ever you'd like to call it/them would go over the vast majority of viewers heads.

BG worked on two levels really ..

Firstly for the mainstream veiwer wanting entertaining, engaging stories while sitting down with a coffee in the evening but who then thought about some of the storylines that they may not have come across before.

Secondly, for a vastly smaller audience tuned into lesbian/women's /prison issues.

Clever... huh??

Dockley PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:11 pm

Re: BG stats
COOLUK1 wrote:
Geauxgirl wrote:~~

Quote:
Wow!!! Yes ~~ I didn't even think about the "straight" audience watching and possibly not catching the "Oranges" thingy!!!! Hmmm .....
Once again, making me think ~~~ and I LUV it!!!!

Thanks!!!


At it's peak 9m people watched BG.

Guesstimations:~

Of that 9m maybe 8,900,000 were straight??
Of that 8.9m 2 or 3million *may* have seen BBC2's adapation of OANTOF, so it *may* have rung a bell with some of them??
A few thousand others may have known of the book from hanging out in Waterstone's??

So the messages/hints/subtext or what ever you'd like to call it/them would go over the vast majority of viewers heads.

BG worked on two levels really ..

Firstly for the mainstream veiwer wanting entertaining, engaging stories while sitting down with a coffee in the evening but who then thought about some of the storylines that they may not have come across before.

Secondly, for a vastly smaller audience tuned into lesbian/women's /prison issues.

Clever... huh??


One of the things that shocked me the most was the fact that a good majority of the storylines on the show actually *do* happen in prisons.

I used to sit there thinking "Yeah like someone could just escape like that" or "A PO beating up a prisoner, not in real life!" or "Drugs don't get in that easily and PO's bringing them in? Nah!"

But it amazes me that it does happen (Not all in one prison, granted), but some of the stories my dad tells shock the hell outta me Shocked

---------------

HuskiesFan PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:09 pm

Wow!!! Shocked Yes ~~ I didn't even think about the "straight" audience watching and possibly not catching the "Oranges" thingy!!!! Hmmm .....
Once again, making me think ~~~ and I LUV it!!!! Wink

Thanks!!!
*************************************************************

GG- Your reaction brought me, as a straight woman, to answer this. Because I am straight, I wasn't familiar with the book's meaning, so I went onto Amazon to research what it was about. Embarassed Embarassed

I'd really be interested in reading it.... Very Happy

---------------

ekny PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:46 pm

Oi mate, sorry it took me awhile to get back to this one, had to get into work to check out the clip again...

abzug wrote:
I also think that Helen doesn't look in any way uncomfortable when she tells Nikki she's not interested in women "not in that way" (I have seen many writers describe Helen as uncomfortable in this moment)


The straight press are *idjyuts*. Amazing. I've seen those quotes too & always kind of snorted internally. Puhlease. (Uh: yeah. I um, agree. An' all.)

abzug wrote:
--I think she is sort of half-laughing at the absurdity of the thought. Nor do I think she frowns or in any way looks unhappy when she's replacing the book on the shelf--she's still in Slightly Bemused mode, imo.


You're right, I had just one editorial twitch warning me to check that perception while I was writing but I was on a roll & ignored it & that's what happens. Thanks for the fine-tuning--who needs a chiropractor, eh.

'Frown' wasn't accurate; it was intended to be a placeholder, a way for me to mark some fleeting expression of hers right before she shelves the book: it's around her mouth, not her eyes. It's really too transient for me to find words for, just something uncertain. Bemused though, that was perfect, you're right, it's a great descriptor: "deeply absorbed in thought; perplexed by conflicting strategies or statements". Synonyms include: baffled, befuddled, bewildered, confounded, confused, lost, mazed, mixed-up, at sea. Really excellent.


abzug wrote:
[re library scene]Helen wasn't ready to be defined at this point. She wasn't anywhere close to even being aware that she needed to be defined. [...] As ekny mentioned, she has to "shelve" the book (and metaphorically, her burgeoning, barely-there, still-mostly-repressed feelings) at this point. She doesn't have room to even consider it.


To continue from this point & add a dash more of my What Did Helen Know type-questioning to the thread: I've always found the question of what Helen thought she was going to ask, before just stopping dead to stare at the gorgeousness that is Nikki incredibly interesting as a built-in 'gap'.

"But I thought--."

Nikki 'supplies' one possible answer, but hardly the only one. Abzug & I discussed this & concluded there *is* no question--no real one, no good one, that exists. What do two women do in bed? I mean: really. There's nothing for Helen to *say* after she's started to speak. She just suddenly has this odd space in her head that's opened up. She jumped off a ledge before she'd even realized the steps that took her there.

---------------

mercy23 PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:13 am

Notice in the last few frames Helen's finger slips under the cover of the book? Ah yes, she's tempted to peek inside!!
Being an avid reader, I was a little surprised that she didn't flip the book over to read the summary...but then again maybe she already knows what the book is about -considering it came from Nikki.

_________________

ekny PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:00 am

mercy23 wrote:
Being an avid reader, I was a little surprised that she didn't flip the book over to read the summary...but then again maybe she already knows what the book is about -considering it came from Nikki.


Fwiw, I posted elsewhere I thought it likely Helen would know 'about' the book:

[link to old board deleted, ek 6/1/6]

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mercy23 PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:56 am

ekny wrote:
mercy23 wrote:
Being an avid reader, I was a little surprised that she didn't flip the book over to read the summary...but then again maybe she already knows what the book is about -considering it came from Nikki.


Fwiw, I posted elsewhere I thought it likely Helen would know 'about' the book:

[link to old board deleted, ek 6/1/6]

I've never read the book, but I'd heard of it- enough to know that it had to do with lesbianism, and that was about it. I didn't know it was from the UK and that it was adapted for tv, etc. Very interesting!
Here I was busying myself with learning British slang (thank god for the 'peevish' website!), and now my ignorance regarding England in general is really shining through!
But as my grandma used to say - "Honey, you learn something new every day, if you're not careful!"

Wink

..and ekny...your avatar.... Shocked
heh

_________________

ekny PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:58 am

mercy23 wrote:

..and ekny...your avatar.... :shock:
heh


i know, ain't it ghastly? ;p

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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:22 am

HuskiesFan wrote:
Wow!!! Shocked Yes ~~ I didn't even think about the "straight" audience watching and possibly not catching the "Oranges" thingy!!!! Hmmm .....
Once again, making me think ~~~ and I LUV it!!!! Wink

Thanks!!!
*************************************************************

GG- Your reaction brought me, as a straight woman, to answer this. Because I am straight, I wasn't familiar with the book's meaning, so I went onto Amazon to research what it was about. Embarassed Embarassed

I'd really be interested in reading it.... Very Happy



Huskie ~ it's a good read!! You oughta ~~~~~ Very Happy
The television drama mini-series was good, too. (The lead actress died in 2001 ~ a very young 33 yrs. of age). The novel is loosely autobiographical.

GG
_________________

hetane PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:31 am

Wow, GG, the little orange headed actress that played the lead died? Geez. She was very good in the role. She was orange headed if i remember correctly, with lots of frecles and a very cute grin. I am sorry to hear that and yes 33 is very young.

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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:35 am

hetane wrote:
Wow, GG, the little orange headed actress that played the lead died? Geez. She was very good in the role. She was orange headed if i remember correctly, with lots of frecles and a very cute grin. I am sorry to hear that and yes 33 is very young.



Charlotte Coleman. yep, that's the one ~~ it is a shame.
She was also in Four Weddings and A Funeral (1994).
_________________

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:22 pm

Charlotte Coleman


Tragically she had a fatal Asthma attack aged 33 although she'd never suffered from it before.

Her sister Lisa Coleman is also an actress and plays Cam in the BBC children's drama Tracey Beaker and also played Jude in Casualty

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Lisa289 PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:50 pm

wow she was well young. n didnt no her sister played Cam in TB tho - but now lookin at her she does look a lot like her
_________________

HuskiesFan PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:21 pm

GeauxGurl wrote:
HuskiesFan wrote:
Wow!!! Shocked Yes ~~ I didn't even think about the "straight" audience watching and possibly not catching the "Oranges" thingy!!!! Hmmm .....
Once again, making me think ~~~ and I LUV it!!!! Wink

Thanks!!!
*************************************************************

GG- Your reaction brought me, as a straight woman, to answer this. Because I am straight, I wasn't familiar with the book's meaning, so I went onto Amazon to research what it was about. Embarassed Embarassed

I'd really be interested in reading it.... Very Happy


Huskie ~ it's a good read!! You oughta ~~~~~ Very Happy
The television drama mini-series was good, too. (The lead actress died in 2001 ~ a very young 33 yrs. of age). The novel is loosely autobiographical.

GG


I think that I'll just have to order it, then. Thanks for recommending that I do so.. Very Happy

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Xenclair PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:56 pm

I have the book and read it so long ago I have forgotten, maybe I should re-read it.

Huskiefan you can borrow my copy. :)

I am reading the Da Vinci Code *BG* better late then never.

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HuskiesFan PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:01 pm

Xenclair wrote:
I have the book and read it so long ago I have forgotten, maybe I should re-read it.

Huskiefan you can borrow my copy. :)

I am reading the Da Vinci Code *BG* better late then never.


Thanks! That would be awesome. I'll sent you a PM.

Jeanna PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:20 pm

"Oranges" is also, significantly, a coming out story. And, yes, autobiographical, and Jeanette Winterson's most 'accessible' and linear novel.

Did anyone think to turn this question around and ask when Nikki realized that Helen was (or might possibly be...those are really two different questions) a lesbian?

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Lisa289 PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:35 pm

When Nikki realised Helen's potential lesbianism
I think Nikki actually figured out Helen's sexuality before Helen herself did. I think the 1st kiss, when Helen briefly retaliated, Nikki would've thought that Helen really was physically attracted to her. But I don't think Helen realises her own sexuality until "Shit Happens". Even from then on, I think she convinces herself that she is bisexual - she hasn't found it in herself that she is only interested in women, and that she can still 'pull the boys'. It's not until "Coming Out" that Helen identifies with herself that she IS a lesbian - which is the point of the line, "I want a woman". I think this is also the point where Nikki's thoughts are settled. Because, before this moment, Nikki had the feeling Helen was just leading her on, after she rebounded into the arms of Dr Waugh so quickly.

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abzug PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:47 pm

Jeanna wrote:
Did anyone think to turn this question around and ask when Nikki realized that Helen was (or might possibly be...those are really two different questions) a lesbian?

Very interesting question. I think this is one of the few things we get to see as it happens. There are four flirting scenes (as I call them) in S1E6. The one out in the yard, the one in Helen's office where she encourages Nikki to enroll in the Open University, the one in Nikki's cell where she gives Nikki the book and the course catalogue, and the one in the library where Nikki hands her "Oranges."

Somewhere between the first of the four scenes and the library scene, Nikki starts thinking Helen might not be so straight. So lets break it down.

Garden Scene: Helen departs with the line "I won't tell if you won't" which is definitely flirtatious. But in this scene Helen also reveals to Nikki that she has a boyfriend. And that they live together but don't see a lot of eachother. So I do think the idea is starting to perculate for Nikki, maybe only subconsciously at this point.

Office Scene: Helen convinces Nikki to think about classes by asking her to do it "as a favor to me" and Nikki responds with "OK, for you." I think by this point she must be wondering if Helen is flirting with her, and what it all means.

Nikki's Cell: Now, remember, by this point at least a week or so has passed since the garden scene, so Nikki's had time to contemplate all of these interactions with Helen. And again, Helen ends the scene with a flirtatious line and caring gesture: She gives Nikki Sophie's World, but with a teasing "You thought I'd forget, didn't you?" I think by this point Nikki is very curious about Helen's interest in her, but not necessarily certain about whether that interest is sexual or not.

The Library: This is where Nikki starts a concerted effort to bring the sexuality issue to the surface. She wants to really try to gauge Helen's reaction, to read Helen, as it were, and figure out what is going on. So she drops the first bait with the "Juliet and Juliet would be more my cup of tea" line. And Helen bites! Now Nikki knows Helen is curious--she's asking Nikki about her sexual history, about her (lack of) feelings for men. Then Nikki follows it up with more bait when she tells Helen she was sure "the same way you are, if you are." And she sees the look in Helen's eyes, even though that look may not match the words Helen uses to respond. Now Nikki thinks she's got Helen hooked--she knows Helen is curious, she knows Helen is looking at her in a new way. So now Nikki goes in for the kill with the line "You should give it a go sometime. Don't know what you're missing" and a swift exit, intentionally leaving Helen wondering what's hit her, and wanting more.

So in conclusion, I think Nikki consciously suspects Helen might have some unconscious interest in her, and then confirms it with her artful flirtation with Helen in the library. Smile


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Jeanna PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:00 pm

I just asked that a bit ago and it only took you [edited due to sheer embarrassment Embarassed ] to come up with all of that beautifully reasoned and worded response off the top of your head.

And I do so love the line..."if you are."

The Anatomy of a Flirtation.[/i]

Last edited by Jeanna on Thu May 11, 2006 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:41 pm

When does H figure out N's a lesbian?
For a moment there Jeanna, I thought you were calling abzug a child molester! You really have to be careful with the words you use on this site you know! Very Happy Perhaps nanosecond might have been more circumspect!
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mercy23 PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:54 pm

Jeanna wrote:
I just asked that a bit ago and it only took you a nonce to come up with all of that beautifully reasoned and worded response off the top of your head.

And I do so love the line..."if you are."

The Anatomy of a Flirtation.



Jeanna-
I've stopped giggling long enough to post this for you and all us other Americans who aren't familiar with British slang:
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/

Some of the slang is just hilarious - check it out!!
Oh, and by the way, be careful how you (or any American) use the word "fanny" or "fanny- pack"....it's something completely different in the UK.
Laughing
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Jeanna PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:29 pm

Crud
Bloody slang. And we'd had this discussion re Caroline too.

May I say before the court in my own defense I have only ever used the word in the capacity in which it was intended. Thusly:

Main Entry: 1nonce
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'nän(t)s
Etymology: Middle English nanes, alteration (from misdivision of then anes in such phrases as to then anes for the one purpose) of anes one purpose, irregular from an, on one -- more at ONE
1 : the one, particular, or present occasion, purpose, or use <for the nonce>
2 : the time being

And, even worse, I hadn't even meant to say that, but trice ! meaning quickly instead of that #$%@#! other word meaning for the present. Laughing


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hetane PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:06 am

Abzug, I agree that in the garden scene things are starting to perculate for Nikki about Helen because to me when Nikki asks Helen about not a man around to help her with the flat back furniture Nikki is feeling Helen out about a relationship in Helen's life. Does Nikki know yet about Sean in that scene or is it the first time Helen mentions Sean or any relationship? To me the way Nikki looks when she asks about no man being around she has a purpose behind the question.

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Bad Jaggy PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:04 am

I thought that Fenner would have refered to Nikki as a dyke.


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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 7:07 am

Quote:
Nikki is feeling Helen out


Gasp... Shocked well she jolly well shouldn't have~out in the garden in front of everyone ..whatever next?? Shocked


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hetane PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 7:41 am

HA! Cooluk, that would have upped the ante some, eh?


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abzug PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:51 pm

hetane wrote:
Abzug, I agree that in the garden scene things are starting to perculate for Nikki about Helen because to me when Nikki asks Helen about not a man around to help her with the flat back furniture Nikki is feeling Helen out about a relationship in Helen's life. Does Nikki know yet about Sean in that scene or is it the first time Helen mentions Sean or any relationship? To me the way Nikki looks when she asks about no man being around she has a purpose behind the question.

I totally agree. Frankly, before Nikki asks this question, she has no information whatsoever about Helen's sexuality. For all she knows, Helen is an out dyke. That wouldn't be so out of the ordinary in the prison service (Di has a great line about that in season 4 which totally cracked me up). So she's definitely fishing there, and she gets her answer, although with a few complex undertones. I would say Nikki probably observed four things in Helen's response:
1. Helen identifies as straight
2. Helen is in a relationship
3. Helen doesn't believe in traditional gender roles or relationship dynamics, even if she is straight ("Call yourself a feminist?")
4. There are potentially problems brewing in the relationship ("the longer we're together, the less time we spend together"), but Helen is probably not consciously aware of them yet


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campgrrls PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 11:38 am

I do think helen was fascinated with Nikki from when they met. She was both annoyed by her outspokenness and admiring of it seeing as she already had her problems with Fenner.

It's in the tone she uses every time she says, "Nikki". Also their first conversation down the block went on for a while. It started with Nikki complaining about the way pregnant women were treated - a kind of feminist expression that probably struck a chord with Helen. Helen already had her own feelings, which she'd mentioned previously, about the prison being run by an old boys network. Helen's comment at the end about the old boys network sounded like a summing up of the conversation Helen and Nik had, but that we didn't hear.

I think Helen probably knew Nik was a dyke from the 1st ep. It was something that we were let in on early on. Also It wasn't something that was laboured. A really good thing about the prog. was that the Helen & Nikki's relationship was built around their struggles within the patriarchal prison system & not around their sexuality. So we are kind of left to assume that Helen was aware of Nik's sexuality - like someone said above, Fenner would have told Helen if no one else did. Also I think Helen would have had a squiz at Nik's file before she went to see her down the block.

Also I think Helen consciously was focusing on making Nikki an allay & wasn't admitting to herself that she was strongly attracted to her. That scene with Sean showed that. In BG we get conversations that are really just the tip of the iceberg. Its style is very quick scenes intercut with other scenes. Many things seem to happen between scenes that are indicated in the scenes fairly succinctly. If Helen had spent more time talking about how she new Nik was a dyke it would have undone that tension between her conscious interest in Nik and her lesbian attraction to her. I have always been in awe of how well Simone portrayed that tension and her inner conflict.

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 4:11 pm

Oooo..nicely put Campgrrls !!


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Jeanna PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 10:03 pm

campgrrls wrote:
I have always been in awe of how well Simone portrayed that tension and her inner conflict.


Couldn't agree more.

munky PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:42 pm

I can't remember when in the series, but I remember thinking that the day of Carole's miscarriage is not Helen's first day at work as G wing governor. It's one of her early days but it isn't her first day. She's relaxed enough to say "Please Jim, I'm not the bloody Queen" to his M'am.
It's not even Helen's first job in a prison. According to the book, by the time she gets to Larkhall G-wing she's already been in service for 5 years and she's Governer grade 4 (so she's already been promoted from 5).
Also, lifers were/are a special group in prison (more so in a women's prison).

So I think it's hard to believe that Helen didn't have that piece of information (what Nikki is and what's she in for) from the beginning. What Helen doesn't do with that information is she doesn't process it until she meets Nikki. Before that Nikki being gay was as relevant as Denny being gay.

Take a look at Helen's face when Nikki starts saying 'I'll tell you for her'. At this point Helen is with her back at Nikki. And when she turns her head towards the person speaking (Nikki), there is a mixture of amazement (who dares), smell of blood-fight, respect, slight annoyment, bit of fear that a gladiator has when confronted by another gladiator which so far was seen as the odd outsider.

Helen has empathy and has intelligence. Going to see Nikki is a brilliant instinctual move on her part. Not only does she diffuses the conflict between her and Nikki but she gains an ally in the fight against the "old boys network".
I think she goes there thinking of Nikki as an enemy but when she sees her in strips realizes that Nikki is not a foul mouthed prisoner who's got a problem with any authority, but someone genuinely concerned about the fate of the women in that prison (at least). So an ally.

Even Fenner, the great manipulator on the board game recognizes this. Remember, when Helen comes back with Nikki on the wing and everybody's still there, Fenner, understanding in an instant what happened says (looking at Helen) "Uncanny bitch!".
I loved it though that Helen didn't gloat in victory.

Remember also the moment when they bump into each other in the canteen? And Fenner very wrongly thinks that it is a good idea to pick on Nikki for that. He's completely off the mark here (surprising for him). To me it seemed that that bumping into each other put into physical form what it was otherwise a fact: that they were in each other's life, whether by accident or because fate would have it or because of whatever.

I think it's in the same episode that Trish comes to visit and Nikki points Helen to her (smiling cheekely) and Trish says 'You didn't tell me she was a babe!'. I can't escape thinking that that is 2 gay women (who are friends at this point, more than anything else) talking about the new woman on the block. Neither of them dismisses Helen as being off the gaydar.

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campgrrls PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:18 pm

munky wrote:
I can't remember when in the series, but I remember thinking that the day of Carole's miscarriage is not Helen's first day at work as G wing governor. It's one of her early days but it isn't her first day. She's relaxed enough to say "Please Jim, I'm not the bloody Queen" to his M'am.


Yes there's several clues to that not being her first day. Driving to work putting on her eyeliner - late but not anxious as one might be on her fuirst day. The guard on the gate lets her in without her ID card and on and on.

I've been watching series one eps and Helen looks for/asks for Nikki's file more than once.
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ekny PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:49 pm

campgrrls wrote:
Yes there's several clues to that not being her first day. Driving to work putting on her eyeliner - late but not anxious as one might be on her fuirst day. The guard on the gate lets her in without her ID card and on and on.


No but it's early enough she still feels obliged to ask him if he wants to see her ID--w/a trace of concern/anxiety. I read it as a few weeks into the job max.

campgrrls wrote:
I've been watching series one eps and Helen looks for/asks for Nikki's file more than once.


I don't recall her doing that before about ep 5. Were there any incidents earlier that I am not remembering properly?

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campgrrls PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:32 am

No. You're right. Ep 5 is the first time we see Helen with Nikki's file. Then she seems to look at it at least once if not twice in the next couple of eps. The impression I got from looking at the first 5 or 6 eps is that Helen looks at prisoner files frequently and especially when she has to deal with some issue for a particular con.

This seems significant to me in relation to the discussion on this thread in which it was questioned if Helen would have read Nik's file before the first ep or at least before meeting her down the block.

In ep 5 Helen is given Nik's file by Rose because she thinks Helen will want to see her report on Nikki's attack on Shell. Helen looks at the file and says it'd keep her going for a while. Perhaps this could suggest that Helen hasn't seen the file before. But by this time Nik is already waiting outside Helen's office. When Helen then calls Nik into her offcie Helen already has decided there's a pattern that Nik goes thru when she's put down the block. So, given that she knew Nik was a lesbian by ep 3, my feeling is that this wasn't the first time Helen had read Nik's file.

Then in the next ep, immediately after coming back to the prison after 3 weeks holiday, Helen goes to the Staffroom to look for Nik's file. She wants to review Nik's prison plan. She doesn't leave with the file but asks for all the reports from the last 3 weeks (for all the cons or just Nik?).

Then in the next ep she goes into the staffroom and takes a file. I was wondering if she was so obssessed with Nik that she checked her file regularly. But then we see her in a meeting with Denny. So it looks like she gets a con's file each time she meets with them. Therefore I would have thouhgt Helen would have had a look at Nik's file before she went down to meet Nik in the block in the first ep. These are files that seem to be constantly up-dated and referred to.

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ekny PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 5:18 am

campgrrls wrote:
No. You're right. Ep 5 is the first time we see Helen with Nikki's file.


That's what I thought, thanks!

campgrrls wrote:
In ep 5 Helen is given Nik's file by Rose because she thinks Helen will want to see her report on Nikki's attack on Shell. Helen looks at the file and says it'd keep her going for a while. Perhaps this could suggest that Helen hasn't seen the file before. [...] So it looks like she gets a con's file each time she meets with them. Therefore I would have thouhgt Helen would have had a look at Nik's file before she went down to meet Nik in the block in the first ep. These are files that seem to be constantly up-dated and referred to.


Both very sound observations, & contradictory (the facts, not your reasoning) in terms of coming to any conclusion about when Helen's acquainted herself with Nikki's file. My feeling is although I agree she seems to get a file before any meeting with a con, & should have perhaps looked at Nikki's file before going down the block to see her, the statement that the file 'would keep her going for a while' does strongly suggest she hasn't looked at it before that point--your observation about how she has a file for any meeting with a prisoner, ep5 being their first 'official' meeting in H's office, would seem to back this up. Perhaps she was preoccupied enough with the coming confrontation/interaction with Nikki she simply strode off to solitary to see her first, there's no way to know--Helen's a little impulsive herself, it's a trait she shares with Nikki. I don't see there's any clear way to resolve the question. But her own statement does seem to indicate it's a big file & that she hasn't eyeballed it before--or if so, only in the most cursury of ways.

There's also the possibility Helen put off looking at Nikki's file because of some remote warning bell or avoidance thing she's got around the Question of Nikki. Which would be entirely characteristic of her.

I also like this possibility because it makes the line blurrier between personal/professional in her approach to Nikki, which it is pretty much from the start. Helen wants Nikki as an ally, and despite Abzug's idea (which I agree with in a qualified way ;) ) that this involves a level of perhaps 'co-opting' Nikki to an extent in her search for some handle on dealing constructively with the prisoners by gaining access to this especially resistant/articulate leader, Helen's still delayed placing their relationship on a more official/professional basis by having Nikki in to the office for a Chat--something that could likely put Nikki off even more; Helen doesn't call her in to the office til the fight with Shell leaves her no choice. Similarly with the file: it may be an instinctive approach rather than a calculated one (something H also specializes in whenever the Nikki Question comes up, especially through most of S1).

As I was showering at the gym this morning, another question occurred to me, and it sort of relates to this question of Helen knowing Nikki was a lesbian. So, there are two core aspects of Nikki's character: (1) She's a lesbian and (2) She was wrongly convicted for murder. We've already examined Helen's knowledge about the first, but we've never talked about Helen's awareness of the second. Does Helen think at first that Nikki actually did murder Gossard in an unprovoked way? Or does she know about Nikki's side of the story, that Gossard was trying to rape Trish and Nikki defended her? And, most importantly, does Helen knowing the true nature of Nikki's crime actually affect her opinion of Nikki? Or, to put that question another way, would Helen have felt the same way about Nikki in those early episodes if Nikki really was a Murderer?

Hi, I think as the Governor, Helen may not have all the details but probably has has a cursory knowledge of all the inmates in her wing. So the fact that she goes to Nikki (when she's in strips) for help about the show, leads me to believe that Helen is somewhat aware tha Nikki is not a common, coldblooded killer. Helen senses there might be a miscarriage of justice here, and she sympathises with Nikki's predicament, otherwise I don't think she would've confided in her about the old boy's network etc. If Helen thought even for a moment that Nikki was guilty of the crime, she wouldn't have sought her out at all, she would've kept her distance and not got involved with her.

>>So, there are two core aspects of Nikki's character: (1) She's a lesbian and (2) She was wrongly convicted for murder.

Hi Abzug, am not entirely sure what you're asking here, so am going to quibble a bit, not to be difficult for difficult's sake but to clarify. First, though... I'm not sure I'd call Nikki's sexuality an aspect of her character. To me that'd be like--Nikki's impulsive, Nikki's honorable, Nikki's stubborn. Nikki's lesbianism is simply a given.

If you said: there are two core aspects to the Nikki storyline, I'd agree. The series is making these points about her character or about her crime, etc. (Which is why Nikki's thing about Dominic is interesting: she's threatened by his interest in Helen not just because he's a man, but because he's a good enough man that if Helen is just a tourist... he'll do. That's about Nikki's character.)


If Al were convicted of this crime (killing Gossard), you can just see her (hell, we did): "Yeh but what if you'd done more than one [murder]? Just askin'." Totally different story: different character. If Denny'd been convincted of this crime--different story.


>>We've already examined Helen's knowledge about the first,

We examined it, but I didn't feel the issue was anywhere near decided, if that's what you were suggesting. I was amazed to see the range of responses to this question, even though I'd guessed it was not resolvable when I asked it. Seemed to me no one had exactly (or in some cases even remotely) the same impression--and all for fairly different reasons.


>>but we've never talked about Helen's awareness of the second. Does Helen think at first that Nikki actually did murder Gossard in an unprovoked way? Or does she know about Nikki's side of the story, that Gossard was trying to rape Trish and Nikki defended her?

I felt to the extent Helen was aware of Nikki's case history we're looking at the same set of issues as in the preceding discussion (vis-a-vis when she looked at Nikki's file & how thoroughly [or not] she read through it [esp as she's clearly reading Nikki's 'confession' to the cops for the first time in S2 & is shocked by it.]). General knowledge/grapevine would be almost exactly as much--or as little--as we (audience) know.

We've heard Nikki's own confession to Monica, but that doesn't tell us a great deal. It never answers (to my satisfaction) how bad the situation with Trish was that Nikki walked in on. "Trying to rape" is very, very *not* explicit. All it tells me is that Trish was in physical danger. That's enough to merit an attack, of course. The whys & wherefores of Nikki's reaction are less clear; having more details about Gossard's attack might have helped a bit, there: to my mind the scriptwriters left a deliberate gap in the storyline about the events of that night, a place where we'd always be somewhat uncertain as to whether the murder was necessary, or justified. (Given we're talking about murder, I think that's fair.) We simply do not have enough data to guess at what the state of things was: we have to take Nikki's word for it. She could've grabbed up a chair & smacked him upside the head with it. Several times. As often as necessary. A wood & metal bar stool swung like a baseball bat? You can do a shitload of damage with something like that. She could've beaten him to a pulp if she'd hit him right the first time, caused him to stagger & fall: she's a big girl. A single well-placed hit would've certainly interrupted the rape & reaimed his anger at her rather than Trish. For that matter, she could've stabbed him in the stomach assuming the angle was right: it didn't kill Fenner. We never hear about any sort of DNA-related evidence. No matter how badly investigated or how sloppy the policework, if there'd been anything substantial, seems to me it'd have been mentioned.

Regardless, so long as the story goes unexamined (or underexamined), Nikki's a hero, trying to protect her girlfriend. I'm not questioning that, but I am doing a bit of devil's advocacy around whether the murder was in fact necessary.

What we know is that Nikki feels some remorse in the abstract for killing a human being--but no particular remorse at killing this one. We get her anger & bitterness about a system that itself, to her mind (and to ours, surely that's part of what Shed's presenting), set up a series of smaller injustices & blind spots that led to this larger one, made it possible. I'm not convinced Nikki ever does take full responsibility for the murder. That's ok, Gossard's a Bad Man & is never personalized in any way, all we see of him's the damage he left behind. But it's another open question.


This is all about our view (or mine) of Nikki's crime, & Nikki's view of herself & her crime. As for Helen, I believe she models her view in a general way on Nikki's own: Nikki's girlfriend was being attacked; there was a struggle; a policeman died. It's not her job to go very far beyond those kinds of details, & however interested in Nikki she is, it seems clear if she'd given it much thought initially she'd've read Nikki's file more thoroughly. She goes on gut instinct because a) she's attracted to Nikki & no one wants to believe they're attracted to a cold-blooded murderer, and b ) she's *like* Nikki, she trusts her instincts. She wouldn't think of dating Shell (scary, huh), even if she were wildly attracted to her (scarier) because Shell's a freaking sociopath & there's just no getting around it, it wafts off her every statement & act. By contrast, Nikki's got all these tasty attributes like brains, charm, honestly, care for the underdog, so Nikki's general {i]character[i/], to get back to the top layer of the question, is what Helen relies on in making her choice; it's just as much an indication of Helen's own that she does so.

(It's not until she reads Nikki's confession she has reason to struggle with the idea of dating a murderer--because Nikki's confession is cold-blooded, it's a parody of the unrepentant psycho-lesbian-cop-killer she believes they believe her to be. However self-destructive that particular bit of Nikki's character is, I don't think they resolved Helen's uneasiness around the question of 'are you a cold-blooded murderer' especially well. As you & I discussed some time ago, the art-room scene, following directly after Helen's explicitly stated uncertainties about Nikki's Character did not even address that [in a very weird way]: still feel something's missing there, lines or a whole scene, or that the sequencing of those scenes is off. Helen gets physical reassurance in Nikki's arms, but Nikki doesn't address the question or even, as she turns to H, appear specifically anxious about it. The only conclusion I can reach is Helen's basically sorry she asked it soon as it left her mouth, which isn't quite Helen. She had trouble asking it, it's been on her mind since the night before.)


>>And, most importantly, does Helen knowing the true nature of Nikki's crime actually affect her opinion of Nikki? Or, to put that question another way, would Helen have felt the same way about Nikki in those early episodes if Nikki really was a Murderer?

Nikki really IS a murderer.


We can screw about with murder vs manslaughter til the cows come home, but she took a human life, period.

Either she did it for a justifiable reason or not. The notion that she might have taken pleasure in it doesn't occur to Helen til Nikki introduces it, because it's aberrant & nothing in Nikki's presentation correlates, that way. Everything in the show's outlining of Nikki's story basically confirms: Nikki did this because she believed she had no other choices and because she acted impulsively. It tries as hard as it can not to make moral judgement as to the nature of this crime outside the terms it sets up--and so do Helen & Nikki. & so do we follow.

I do think it's a pretty important question the show's framing there. It's not that different from any self-defense situation, in fact they've made it harder for themselves by giving Nikki these difficult personality traits. She's about as far from a physically small, chronically-abused housewife as you can get, but the issues are not dissimilar: to what extent does a woman's inability to physically defend herself in a way commensurate to a man justify her use of more extreme tactics in an extreme sitation?

HI, I just saw the last episode (S3, E16) and the judge reduces the murder charge to manslaughter. So with time served Nikki was given her freedom. That means she's not deemed innocent but a convicted felon. So inspite of this fact Helen still wants to be with her, there's your answer.

Yeah, Helen still wanted to be with Nikki even tho N was still guilty of a crime. She didn't seek out N and tell her she still loved her because she was no longer guilty, because she was, it was that their relationship was now possible and they could "flaunt" it.

I meant character as in the fictional person as created for the tv show Bad Girls, not character as in internal psychological makeup. So I think we're agreed on this point, its just a question of semantics. Which are oh so fun. ;)

True, and I think this is important, because even this they leave just a touch ambiguous. Nikki is a reliable narrator overall, but we also see her temper and her overreaction to things, so there's a tiny bit of a sense that, well, maybe what she did wasn't totally completely and unquestionably justified.

I had always envisioned the Gossard murder with Nikki coming at him from behind. He's raping Trish against the bar, or against the desk in the office or whatever, and his back is to Nikki, and she hits him over the head with the bottle, and then he laughs, turning his head a bit, but still pressed up against Trish. Which is a roundabout way of saying that Nikki only has access to his back and a bit of his side. So the neck was truly the only vulnerable body part, if she were to decide to stab him. If she tried to stab his back, she would have had to go through layers of clothing, and that would have been tough/impossible.

Actually, I might disagree with you here. I think some of Mandana's expressiveness during the trial at the end of season 3 demonstrated some of Nikki's remorse about the whole thing. I don't think she takes it lightly, even knowing he was an evil man. I think she thinks she did something very wrong, but also didn't feel like she had a choice. So I do see regret/remorse there, definitely. And, not to bring in extra-textual evidence, but in the musical she indicates remorse explicitly, and describes the murder as a "wrong" that she was in essence forced to do.

So, from this I gather that you feel Nikki's crime didn't matter to Helen, that she judges Nikki as a human being, without regard for her crime.

Nice point about the parody. I hadn't quite noticed that. But in a way, this scene sort of emphasizes my point, which is that Helen has deliberately repressed in her mind the fact that Nikki is a murderer. Now, did she do that because she had an understanding and sympathy for Nikki's side of the story? Or because she just liked Nikki a lot, and so put the idea that she killed a cop out of her head?

Well, one could argue that Nikki's immediate reaction, the look on her face, gave Helen all the answer she needed. I can't imagine Shell responding that way to the same question, and with this response Nikki demonstrated her remorse, her essential humanity in terms of her value for human life.

Well, to state my question a little more clearly, Helen could think Nikki is:
1. Someone who killed a cop in self-defense, to protect the woman she loved, in a very gallant way, and who was then wrongly convicted of 1st degree murder (that's what we'd call it in the US--don't recall the term in the UK)
2. Someone who killed a cop in cold-blood without any provocation (or without any meaningful provocation) and was then rightly convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

I used the term Murderer (capital M) to refer to #2, because I think it is distinct from #1. So, if Helen thought Nikki was #2, then would she have regarded Nikki the same way in those early episodes? Asked her about her books, tried to make her an ally etc?

Agreed. But did Helen feel this way from day 1? Lets say we consider that confrontation on the stairs after Carol's miscarriage to be their first major interaction. Why might Helen not think that Nikki is a cold-blooded non-remorseful killer? Or can she hear the truth in Nikki's words and respect her position? I think you are arguing that Helen can and does respect Nikki even from this early on. So does her awareness of Nikki's crime play into it at all? I guess you're saying No, it doesn't, not until season 2 when she reads the file. But that still doesn't clarify if that's b/c Helen is just repressing, or if Helen truly believes Nikki's side.

Which, in the end, is a metaphor for women in general in a patriarchal society, and the tactics women must use on a social level as well as a personal level to fight against their repression.

Ok, my misreading of your use of the word character there, sorry!

Agreed, I think that's intentional throughout in the development of both N's story & our understanding of her character & her crime: it shouldn't be easy to dismiss, regardless of justification.

Also agree abt your general envisioning of the characters' probable positions during the murder; at most, Nikki might have been able to come at him from the side, not the front, & unless he reacted quickly enough by raising his arm to hit her or protect himself, in which case his armpit would've been vulnerable, the neck's a pretty likely target.

Oh absolutely: but that's the end of the story. The point I was making was up until that point, we don't see anything so clear-cut, at least I can't think of anything off the top of my head, not nearly so obvious as her demeanor at the trial.

No, I think Helen views it as defense of Trisha during a rape-in-progress; if not self-defense, the next thing to it, of N's partner. I've always wondered if things might have gone a little better for Nikki during her original trial if the attempted rape took place at their apartment, in a kind of home-invasion scenario. At the least Gossard's presence would've taken some fancy explaining. Because it's in a public space (even though they're the club owners), it's somehow less 'bad', more open to interpretation or twisting by the prosecution.

I don't feel Helen ever forgets why Nikki's in prison: I think she simply believes Nikki's actions were justified. And her love for Nikki spurs her on to re-open/reexamine the case, of course. I just meant, she never has reason (or feels she needs to) question Nikki's 'side' of the story until she reads that case file with the confession, that's all.

Very good point, I think you're right. It's all the answer Helen gets, & she obviously decides it's all the answer she needs.

No, of course not. Throughout I'd agree with you that H thinks it's basically your first set of reasons.