fromdownunder PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:00 pm
I won't even go there... let's just say we are all individuals.
_________________
LateToTheParty PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:10 am
Watched Scene Again, Changed My Mind
Some time ago, I wrote:
Why Does It Have To Be Only One Or The Other?
At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, there's no way Nikki could have put Helen's hand on her heart without putting Helen's hand on her breast. The action had a dual meaning, and I think that was intentional. I think what the writers were telling us was that Nikki wanted -- nay, demanded -- that Helen "come out" of denial and acknowledge both the emotional and the physical attraction between herself and Nikki that Nikki (and the rest of us) had recognized much earlier.
I take it all back. While the "hand on heart" idea had undeniable appeal for me (because I just don't like seeing Nikki behave like a caveman), having watched the scene again, I have no doubt that Nikki put Helen's hand on Nikki's BREAST.
Just my two pence (again)
_________________
mercy23 PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:23 am
Yes, I agree ekny that it was a boob-grab because Nikki's left hand presses Helen's right hand to her breast while Nikki's right hand is clamped around helen's right forearm.
I also wished that Nikki had taken a different approach but as fromdownunder and abzug pointed out - Nikki had trouble expressing herself - gently, at least. I like to think that Nikki's behavior is a product of her environment (prison) - a protective tool she uses when she feels threatened (or heartbroken in this case) and not one she would typically employ if she weren't in a place where danger lurked around every corner.
Nikki is an intelligent and thoughtful person, among other things, and though it's hard to watch her go all 'caveman', I can actually understand this primitive form of communication - given the environment she's been in, for what, 2 years at this point? And the horror on her face when she realizes that she's used the wrong "tool" to get her message across to Helen convinces me even more of this.
_________________
Tashenka PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:48 pm
Nikki clearly meant to put Helen's hand on her breast.
Look at it from Nikki's point of view: Helen has been approaching her, making it a special point to be nice to her, to encourage her. Their relationship has taken on a bit of a flirtatious tone. Helen has been asking Nikki about her sexuality, how she knew she was a lesbian, and so on. Nikki can't see what the audience sees, which is that Helen is genuinely oblivious, at least on a conscious level, to the subtext of her words and actions. Nikki has every reason to take them at face value. In Helen's Larkhall world, Nikki is the most important person.
So then when Nikki is introduced to Sean as Helen's fiance, she's understandably hurt and angry: he's the most important person in Helen's outside-of-Larkhall life, and Helen's made this real-world commitment to him. Again understandably, Nikki is going to wonder why Helen is toying with her when she's already made this commitment to a man.
Just as Helen is oblivious to the subtext, Nikki is somewhat oblivious to Helen's obliviousness. As shocked as Helen was at Nikki's actions, I think Nikki was equally shocked at Helen's reactions. I don't think she appreciated how truly naive Helen was. In fact, that pops up again in series two in the form of Nikki's incredulity every time Helen says she and Dominic are just colleagues.
As attracted as these two women are to each other, they don't know each other that well, and since they're in this artificial world it makes their interactions that much more interesting.
_________________
abzug PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:10 pm
Tashenka wrote:
Just as Helen is oblivious to the subtext, Nikki is somewhat oblivious to Helen's obliviousness. As shocked as Helen was at Nikki's actions, I think Nikki was equally shocked at Helen's reactions. I don't think she appreciated how truly naive Helen was. In fact, that pops up again in series two in the form of Nikki's incredulity every time Helen says she and Dominic are just colleagues.
Very interesting point, Tashenka, particularly the connection with Helen's perception of her relationship with Dominic. Helen seems to be one of those heart-breaker types, who goes around making everyone fall in love with her without even knowing it. In a way, Nikki sees the Helen-Dominic relationship (or, at least Dominic's end of it) much more clearly than Helen does.
I think we discussed this a bit in the "Books Nikki Read Whilst in Prison" thread, where we talked about the fact that Nikki is such a good reader of people, almost TOO good, so she sees these subtleties in people's behavior and reads a lot into it. Helen has a logical mind, but is not nearly as observant about/aware of the emotional content behind people's behavior as Nikki is. If she was, she probably would have gotten along better with Jim Fenner.
PS Somewhere a few posts or pages back, someone said something about not finding this scene sexy, that Nikki's behavior is so aggressive that they cringe when they watch the scene. I never did reply to that specifically, but I have to say that I always felt a very strong sexual charge in this scene, and to me that's one of the things that makes it so effective. Even though Nikki's move is so NOT smooth or seductive, even though Helen reacts with fear and disgust, its impossible to ignore the electricity between them. Impossible for us, the audience, to ignore, and impossible for Helen and Nikki to ignore.
_________________
AC0018 PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:13 pm
Just having an interesting read of everybodies thoughts and opinions on both the Potting Shed scene and the First Kiss, (and whilst trying to boost my posting stats and get some clothes on while I'm down the block) I thought I'd add my ramblings.
The Potting Shed
It seems to me that Helen already knew how to get her way with Nikki as was made obvious in the previous episode 'A Big Mistake' when she appeals to Nikki's love of literature by giving her the copy of Sophie's World with the cute/sexy little 'I won't tell if you won't tell'. This was followed by the suggestion of taking on the English Literature degree, accompanied by almost identical cute/sexy 'I'd like you to think about it. Please. As a favour to me.' I think it was Filbert who said in one of her episode synopsis that Helen had learnt 'if at first you don't succeed... flirt' and Helen Stewart is very good at it.
Helen does seem upset that Sean has told Nikki about their engagement, maybe she's thinking that he shouldn't have said anything in front of a prisoner, or maybe it was because it was this particular prisoner and she now, seeing the disappointment on Nikki's face, knows she has an awkward conversation ahead of her... cue the potting shed.
Before going to see Nikki Helen must have wondered why Nikki was so upset about her impending marriage to Sean. Anyone got any ideas? because I can only come up with the answer that Nikki reveals. (Because we know Nikki didn't fancy Sean, and despite how gorgeous she looks in white I don't think Nikki would want to wear 'the dress').
So I think Helen knew what answer she was going to get from Nikki just not how she was going to get it!
Heart versus Breast
Though I would adore it to have been a placing of Helen's hand over her heart as if to say 'this is what you do to me' I have to come down on the side of the 'boob grab' but here's why: It's a physical connection between the two of them and a sexual connection between one woman touching another woman, Nikki placed Helen's hand on one of the parts of her body that identified her as female. But Helen was clearly not ready to contemplate or accept that about herself, not yet anyway... give her a couple more years and she'll admit it!
The First Kiss
What I like the most about this entire scene is that it practically mirrors an earlier scene. Helen is lying in Sean's arms, desperate for comfort and all he can say to make it better is that they've got the date that they wanted for the registry office. When Helen goes to Nikki's sell and has almost the same conversation Nikki immediately offers the support she needs for her job and the comfort she needs for herself.
I know that in interviews Mandana Jones says that the kiss was intended to be a spontaneous thing that 'just happens' but I always saw it as Nikki kissed Helen. She could see how much pain Helen was in and for a moment she knew how to take that pain away and for another moment Helen's pain was gone.
And finally Helen's expression outside of Nikki's cell... Helen liked kissing Nikki and it scared her because of what liking it meant.
_________________
Tashenka PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:53 am
abzug wrote:
In a way, Nikki sees the Helen-Dominic relationship (or, at least Dominic's end of it) much more clearly than Helen does.
Absolutely. Nikki is definitely an observer, but she's got a pretty big blind spot when it comes to Helen. It's almost as if Nikki can't imagine anyone being that naive/clueless, and that combined with her jealousy and frustration at not being able to communicate normally with Helen makes her decide that Helen must be deliberately trying to provoke or hurt her.
Again, this makes sense; Nikki's been on her own since she was a teenager and is quite street-smart, whereas Helen has lived a more sheltered life and is much more idealistic.
abzug wrote:
Somewhere a few posts or pages back, someone said something about not finding this scene sexy, that Nikki's behavior is so aggressive that they cringe when they watch the scene. I never did reply to that specifically, but I have to say that I always felt a very strong sexual charge in this scene, and to me that's one of the things that makes it so effective.
I agree with you. It's not a sexy scene, but it is extremely sexual and passionate. I think Nikki's actions aren't meant to be sexy at all; I think she's responding to what she perceives as Helen playing some kind of cat-and-mouse game with her: currying her favor, flirting with her, then showing up with her fiance in tow as if her interactions with Nikki mean nothing. Nikki hasn't yet figured out that Helen is the queen of sending mixed messages. Compare their actions: Nikki putting the hand of Helen, who she genuinely thinks might be interested in her and who she thinks has been shamelessly manipulating her, on her breast vs introducing Helen introducting her fiance to Nikki, who genuinely is interested in her and to whom Helen's actions appear as encouragement of that interest.
I think this is when Nikki first really understands the depths of Helen's self-deception; were she any less an observer, I don't think she would have kept pursuing Helen. But then I could be making this all up; wouldn't be the first time I've completely misinterpreted things!
_________________
munky PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:45 pm
Why does Helen ask Sean to give a presentation in the first place? Doesn't she do it for Nikki? In the same way that she brought the Open University prospectus to her. And in the same way that Helen will take care of Nikki for much of the series.
So far, Helen has taken her out of the block, enticed her to take up an OU degree, moved her to enhanced. More so, Nikki knows that Helen knows about her being gay.
I think Nikki has every right to think that Helen likes her. But what Nikki being Nikki doesn't do is stop to consider in what way does Helen like her. Nikki's on the rebound from Trish (who's bullshitting her - according to Nikki) and she feels bullshitted again by Helen. I can very well see Nikki thinking "Why did she bring this guy here when she knows I like her and when she's shown me that she likes me. Why, to rub my nose in the fact that she is getting married?". Apart from having her dream shattered (cause she takes the declaration of marriage at face value), she's pissed off for being bullshitted again.
So when Helen comes in the shed and genuinely wants to know, Nikki perceives it as the ultimate hypocrisy, like a slap in the face. So she reacts slightly violently: she doesn't just tell Helen that it is because she loves her, but she puts Helen in front of the physical presence of what love means for a gay woman.
The scene is very powerful. Watching it again there isn't any doubt in my mind that Nikki had every intention of placing Helen's hand on her breast. But it is also true that she placed it on her left breast. She wanted to tell Helen at once that she loved her and that it was a woman who was saying this to her.
I have to admit that it surprised me. In the sense that I didn't feel that Nikki's feelings have been building up quite like that. But thinking of the scene as a spur of the moment response to a perceived hypocrisy on Helen's part I can understand it perfectly.
If you look at the synopsis of the episode (ep7) on the official website and if you look at the synopsis of the episode in the book (BG: The Inside Story), they both talk about Helen's hand put on Nikki's breast. And they don't even mention it is the left breast.
Why did Helen go after Nikki into the shed? Well, I don't see how she could have left it hanging, she wanted and needed Nikki on her side. Also, she already knew Nikki was gay and has recently split up with Trish, so she must have thought it possible even if remotely that Nikki is thinking of herself a lover betrayed.
Then again, if Helen was already starting to fall for Nikki, I think she secretly wanted to see if Nikki was disheartened about her impending marriage.
But above all that, I think it was one of those moments where you know you just need to do something although you might not know exactly why or if it is a good idea and what will come out of it.
Though not consciously and premeditated, Nikki took a huge gamble there. Yes, she probably felt that she wouldn't loose and yes, she probably needed to know too what Helen is made of.
I wouldn't call what Nikki did sexual assault because it came from love and desperation. Actually I didn't see it as being sexual. Nikki's a prisoner, she has very little leeway when it comes to foreplay. But it is a very fine line and I think Shed wanted to emphasize that even the best of us, with even the most noble of intentions can cross it sometimes.
_________________
abzug PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:00 pm
munky wrote:
Nikki's on the rebound from Trish (who's bullshitting her - according to Nikki) and she feels bullshitted again by Helen. I can very well see Nikki thinking "Why did she bring this guy here when she knows I like her and when she's shown me that she likes me. Why, to rub my nose in the fact that she is getting married?". Apart from having her dream shattered (cause she takes the declaration of marriage at face value), she's pissed off for being bullshitted again.
So when Helen comes in the shed and genuinely wants to know, Nikki perceives it as the ultimate hypocrisy, like a slap in the face. So she reacts slightly violently
This is a REALLY good point, and you explained it really well. I hadn't quite considered that Nikki may have felt Helen was rubbing her nose in something, but of course that is probably an underlying emotion in this complicated web of feelings Nikki is having related to Helen. She's definitely felt betrayed by Helen, even if she's not totally conscious that this is where her anger is coming from. The
_________________
mercy23 PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:46 am
All these interesting posts about the potting shed made me think about their first kiss and how Helen told Sean that Nikki "tried to kiss me".
Helen was completely shocked when Nikki held Helen's hand to her breast - and it's safe to say that Helen's feelings for Nikki weren't quite clear (at least to herself) at that point. Having said that, why didn't Helen tell Sean about the "boob grab"? I've read other posts as to why Helen may have told Sean about the "attempted kiss" but I'm still wondering why she never mentioned the very first (and true) attempt by Nikki to make her feelings known? And why do I still giggle at the phrase "boob grab"?
There must be a 13 year old boy living inside me somewhere.
Smile
_________________
kin'ell! PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:14 pm
AC0018 wrote:
Nikki placed Helen's hand on one of the parts of her body that identified her as female.
Well yes, we wouldn't want Nikki to be asociated with Fenner's fanny grabbing lmao!!!
_________________
campgrrls PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:56 pm
The last ep I watched in series 1 is the Playing with Fire one. It is a key ep & the fact that it’s written by Ann McManus indicates it representative of the original vision the creators had for the show. It also carries on some key themes that appear in other eps. In answer to some of the questions raised by this thread I was wondering why so much of Helen and Nikki’s relationship occurred in the garden. And I also wondered about the way the “potting shed” has become a central issue in the power dynamics of the relationship. This is tied up with the fact that Nikki’s move to put Helen’s hand on her breast is problematic but central to the development of their relationship, for most of the reasons already mentioned on this thread. In some ways the move seems out of place, but I think it’s necessary to look at it within the context of the ep, and its relationship to other eps.
While BG pretends to social realism it actually uses a lot of impressionistic and symbolic devices. The way its shot, the construction of images and the editing are as important as the dialogue and action. E.g. that montage type sequence at the beginning of the ep & the sequence after the potting shed scene both inter-cut Nik and Helen’s actions accompanied by music in a way that creates a sense of them being emotionally connected in a relationship that crosses the boundary between governor and con. And it’s inter-cut with the more abusive power relationship between Fenner & Shell, in which Fenner abuses his power to control Shell. Helen is thoroughly implicated in the bonding with Nikki but is in a state of confusion about it. It’s also interesting that the theme of motherhood and nurturing women, already raised on this thread, is one of the motifs in the ep, paralleled with images of nurturing of plants.
It’s also interesting that the plants and gardening throw up symbolism that refers to gendered body parts highlighting the difference between lesbian and heterosexual sexuality. It’s in this context that Nik physically draws Helen’s attention to the reality of lesbian sexuality. It’s also in the context where imagination and drug taking are constructed as ways to remain free while being imprisoned . And imprisonment here refers to Helen’s imprisonment in a heterosexual relationship as much as being physically in a prison. So it needs a physical act to move the relationship beyond Nik’s experience of it in the borderlands between reality and the imaginary. It requires this to break thru’ Helen’s self deception.
_________________
campgrrls PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:58 pm
here follows a more sequential reading of the Playing with fire ep, and it's relationship to a scene in an earlier ep., as a way of explaining the points I made in the last post.
The potting shed sequence refers back to the ep 3 scene when Helen first comes up with the idea of Sean going to the prison to give a talk because a lot of the women are interested in gardening. It’s when Sean suggests that the potting shed may be a place where prisoners dig escape tunnels that Helen suggests he give a talk. And then when he’s talking about being shut up with all those sex starved women, Helen says that the women are not all that sex starved. Then she ambiguously says that maybe that’s the way in. She’s tried everything but Nik’s not interested, but she’s interested in gardening and maybe that’s the way in. Then Sean asks about her being a lesbian and says that maybe that’s Helen’s problem: she’s the right species but the wrong variety. He says that Helen prefers her gardeners to wear Y fronts. This sets up gardening and sexuality as being inter-linked and parallels Sean and Nik as gardeners in competition for Helen’s attention. Also that ep sets up the image of Helen’s relationship as being imprisoned within Helen’s flat. The shot of their sex scene is taken from the perspective of the venation blinds that look like prison bars.
An interesting thing about how the Playing With Fire ep starts is that it begins with the cell door being opened from the perspective of an inmate who we don’t see, with Dominic asking if the inmate is ready for her shower. It immediately cuts to Helen after her shower. We then get cross-cuts between Helen and Nikki both looking outward; Nikki looking out of the prison watching for Helen arriving, Helen looking out the window of her house, through the bar-like Venetian blinds, from which we see Nikki’s view out of the prison. Both look at themselves contemplatively in the mirror signifying them questioning themselves. The implications of this is that Helen is as much in prison as Nikki, that their perspectives are closely intertwined and that at some level they are questioning their roles in their relationship with each other.
When Sean proposes at the beginning of the ep, it’s in the garden and Sean refers to marriage and child as being “a bit normal”. Then we get a cut to a pan across the wall painting in the prison classroom saying: “You may lock me up. You may throw away the key. But you can never take away the greatest freedom of all – my imagination.” Imagination has been crossed out & valium written above it.
There are parallels between Sean coming out of his potting shed with blooming pot plants and Nik later in the prison potting shed. Initially Sean looks quite free. He talks about Helen being a good mother, but also he talks about Helen getting him to go to the prison and says she’s treating the prisoners like a mother.
There’s talk of Nikki’s parents, and her being cast out of the family home because of her lifestyle & we see a lot of Monica as a mother. Prison is driving a wedge between her and Spencer. And also there’s stuff about Zandra pregnant & the possible affects on her of taking drugs to make prison bearable.
Helen gives Nik a lot of freedoms, to go to the 3s and have more freedom to go wherever she wants. Meanwhile Shell gets her freedom curtailed.
At then beginning of his talk Sean holds up some unhealthy roots/bulbs and Shell keeps making jokes about them being like hairy balls & asks more than once to give her a feel, fore-shadowing Nik’s attempt to get Helen to feel her breast. When Nik tells Shell to shut it, Shell says they know Nikki's not interested in the hairy ball/bulbs. Then Sean shows a healthy bulb, without shoots & a smooth surface. He says that healthy bulbs are heavy, have a nice clean surface & the bigger the better. His talk display is visible in the background of a lot of this scene and the white board has the title “A true bulb”. Do I need to speel out the significance of the symbolism here?
The scene that happens in the potting shed is very enclosed and claustrophobic. We see a framing shot of the closed shed to start with. Nik is busy planting a bulb when Helen arrives & continues to tend to her plants. As the scene progresses it all looks very claustrophobic, with Nik’s head almost too tall for the shed. She almost looks backed into a corner by Helen who is claiming ignorance at the same time as actively pursuing Nik & raising her own personal issues.
Meanwhile we get inter-cut with scenes of Shell with her caged bird, her destructive act killing the bird while Nik continues to tend her plants. So the Nikki-Helen relationship is pictured as being fraught, but a more potentially freeing one than that of Shell and her druggy, Fenner dominated world.
_________________
abzug PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 10:18 pm
Hiya campgrrls, great close reading of that episode. I totally agree about the importance of place, with the potting shed as a locus for H&N's relationship. There's actually a thread where we've talked about this issue of place as it pertains to the entire show (although of course with a focus on H&N, as always).
http://www.mandana-jones.com/hnboard/viewt...er=asc&start=15The sexual symbolism of the plants/bulbs is spot on. I hadn't thought about the distinction between lesbian and hetero sexuality being implied there, but of course, its totally there. You might be interested in the Flowers thread, if you haven't seen it yet:
http://www.mandana-jones.com/hnboard/viewtopic.php?t=713(Hope I'm not overwhelming you with threads here!)
Quote:
It’s also in the context where imagination and drug taking are constructed as ways to remain free while being imprisoned . And imprisonment here refers to Helen’s imprisonment in a heterosexual relationship as much as being physically in a prison. So it needs a physical act to move the relationship beyond Nik’s experience of it in the borderlands between reality and the imaginary.
Yes! Thanks for putting into words why Nikki couldn't just speak her love, but had to physically act it. I also really like this idea of Helen's own inprisonment, which is so integrated into the text and subtext in this first season, verbally and visually.
The idea of how a person can remain free even when they are in prison is one which the show plays around with quite a bit. In particular, it comes up in Nikki's conflicts with Fenner. I've always enjoyed the moment when he moves her back down to basic and she tells him she keeps all her privileges "up here [points to head] where you can't touch them." That imagination/valium juxtaposition may be humorous, but for the show's writers it is also a deadly serious message--would we rather be Nikki or Zandra?
_________________
Lisa289 PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 10:22 pm
how do u mean, Nikki or Zandra?