Hello One and All:

I am new to this illustrious board and I really like it here, I have made new friends who share my love for Nikki and Helen. Also, I am from Burbank, California, USA. Please don’t be upset with me but although I do respect and admire both Nikki Wade and Mandana Jones, my heart forever will belong to Lady Simone Lahbib. Check me out I am a poster on simonelahbib.net (LSL’s Board).

It is my understanding that there had been some controversy regarding BAD GIRLS in interviews with LSL. From what I have been hearing and reading it seems to me that there are those amongst us the seem to think that LSL has bad-mouthed BG the show, the characters, and the scripts. This is a free world and LSL had a right to her own opinion. However, I don’t believe that LSL would do that. I had heard her say that when they first read the scripts before the show got under way that she found the scripts to be far fetched. Think about it a prison Governor and a convicted lifer falling in love - not real- both sides are natural born enemies. If she did say the scripts were crap may be she was being fictitious or sarcastic, or what she said could be very well been taken out of context. Even worse everything she said could have been just plain hype, I live in Hollywoodland and I know hype.

As far as I know LSL is not a bigot or a homophobe as she has said she is against all the prejudice and discrimination that gay and lesbians face everyday, regardless of the fact that she herself does not face the same issues that we do. LSL can understand our plight and hopes that the straight world becomes more understanding. Let’s face facts the gay and lesbian world has a lot of work to do when it comes to the subject of equality and understanding between the gay and lesbian community and the straight majority of this earth’s populace. When LSL was asked if she would ever portray a lesbian again in her life time and she said yes, that to me speaks volumes on her behalf. If LSL had some hidden homophobia she would never have taken the role or kept the role when she knew that she had to kiss and cuddle another woman. I honestly don’t believe she did the role just for the money or as we say in the USA (gay for pay) and the worst case scenario if she did it was her acting ability that made Governor Helen Stewart the wonder of a woman that she is and why we love her so much. Could we may be give LSL the same understanding that we expect from her. I thank you all very much.

Just my opinion,
Cheryl

P.S. Lesbians love women Helen did not know that until she became one herself so bye bye to the bi-bi.

I don't know that there has really been controversy, honestly. At least, not in the last year or two, since Simone did an interview with AfterEllen and addressed all of these issues.
http://www.afterellen.com/people/2007/2/lahbib

I think there may be some other message boards out there where people like to talk about this topic, primarily for the purpose of bashing SL. I've never really understood this, but they can do what they want, obviously.

Honestly, this is the first time I've ever seen the issue raised but it belies reason that someone like Simone who spent three years playing Helen Stewart and interacting quite comfortably with Mandana 'romantically', flirtaciously (sp) on and off screen, would be a homophobe. Anyone who is a true homophobe no way no how would have taken the part. Just my opinion.

The wonderful thing about the Afterellen interview with Simone is her extraordinary openness and the sympathetic interviewer. Simone went out of her way to knock on the head any misconception about how she felt about the show and her character. Everything is so there. Come to think about it all the interviews were totally top notch.

We've just moved this across to a more suited section of the board.
Also, while we know this isn't the intent of the originator of the post and no way a reflection of them or others who have commented so far, we would just remind everyone we had a lot of problems when people have debated this in the past with not being able to accept another point of view without it becoming personal. Please try and remember this when talking about it now since we would hate to have to close it. Thanks in advance

I'm curious, did anyone ever determine whether Simone knew she was talking to "the gay press" when she gave the afterellen interview?

In regard to what SL thought of the BG scripts I think this exchange in the AE interview suggests she didn't jump up and down about playing a boring prison governor -- which could have led her to say negative things about the scripts she originally saw. But it was the love story that actually won her over.

AE: Did you hesitate to take on the role?
SL: Not exactly, though when I first went up for Bad Girls, I wasn't sure it was something I wanted to do because the scenes I read for the audition were mostly of Helen in work mode, and I just couldn't see myself as a prison governor. I'd never played that type of role before, and I nearly didn't go back for the recall. But I did go back, and that's when [producer] Brian Park told me about the Helen and Nikki story line, and that's when I started to see a way into the character, and I got excited. That's when I knew I wanted the job.

That's an interesting bit of the interview you focussed in on, DontUWish. What would be very hard for any of us to do is to envisage Bad Girls in script form as Simone originally read it. Our perception of it has been so fundamentally shaped by the dimensions that all the actors, including Simone of course, have given it and the depths that they have brought to the roles, notably Simone. You get the feeling from her that this role was different from roles she has taken up to date and that, fortunately, she was sharp enough to sense the possibilities. I recall during the very first 'cast interview' on Series 1 that she used the word 'groundbreaking.'

I would be really surprised if she didn't. Having done the tiniest bit of journalism myself, usually the subject knows where the interview is going to be published. The only reason Simone wouldn't have known is if the interviewer didn't know, but was doing the interview on spec, hoping to then sell the article to a publication. But since the interviewer had already done the Mandana interview for AE, then it seems much more likely that she interviewed Simone not on spec, but knowing it was for AE.

I can't help but hope you're wrong, abzug though I know you're probably right. Don't misunderstand. I don't think Simone's homophobic or anything of the sort and I base that on the fact she chose to do the show, acted the hell out of it, stayed with the show for several years, promoted the show by comfortably flirting with Mandana (even as in the South Africa promo when no fans were around), and has said so many positive things about her experience.

It would help me put some closure on it if that AE interview (which is maybe the last one she'll do about BG?) wasn't one targeted to please her lesbian fans. I'm not saying that's what she did, but if she knew it was the gay press then that may have shaped her answers .... I mean of course it did, how could it not? So I'm still holding out hope is all that she gave the interview without knowing.

Well, my feeling is, if she intentionally crafts an emphatically non-homophobic message for the gay press, while speaking homophobically (or homo-uncomfortably) to the gay press, then she's a manipulative sociopath. So, since I'll never know Simone personally, I can choose to believe one of the following:
A. She's a manipulative sociopath, and homophobic to boot
B. She's a carefree, sometimes outspoken, deeply caring friend of the gays

I'm going to go with B. I just find A really hard to believe, and really hard to stomach.

I also think, if Simone were homophobic, or homo-uncomfortable, why would she even care to talk to the gay press? She's been done with the show for years, and could completely move beyond that role if she wanted to.

I completely agree that it's almost surely B. In interviews and outakes she definitely strikes me as a combination of carefree generally and also caring about lesbians. That said, if she did know she was talking to the gay press (and did she ask for the interview?) it's not hard to see the possibility of a C: She's a generally well-meaning person who wanted publicity in the U.S. and used the gay press to get it. Or she used the gay press to clear up what she felt were misrepresentations.

I don't mean to cause trouble. I just wish we knew the whole story so we knew how to read into that interview a little better. Even if nobody here thinks or at least says Simone's anything but great, my bet is the doubt still persists and that's frustrating.

Hear hear! Well said abzug! :clap
The oracle has spoken!

Come on, 'oracle'? abzug is wonderful and I'm sure you didn't mean anything but to give her a nice compliment, but surely there has to be room for questioning and debate and disagreement? I'm soooo glad the attacks of the past are gone, but I also hope we remain open to different viewpoints and we keep pushing each other to deepen our understanding of the show and the actors and their comments and everything else that keeps the message board going.

I'd certainly opt for Abzug's choice and add another dimension. My take is that the After Ellen journalist Leigh-Anne Krieg is a really good interviewer.
Likewise, another good Simone interview was on the Rainbownet site a number of years back.

Leigh's questions asked weren't just the quote unquote 'gay perspective' but were a very well rounded set of questions. They must have showed Simone that Leigh had done her homework and treated her as a human being and in return, enabled her to be forthcoming. Moreover, they gave Simone the chance to put over her opinions rather than be forced into the framework that some slipshod tabloid journalist had fashioned for her. These examples of good questions illustrate the point.

"In other interviews, I've sensed you were uncomfortable with your role on Bad Girls, but I don't get that impression from you."

"They ended up bringing you back in a reduced role, which had to hurt. So what made you decide to return?"

It may be the case that AfterEllen and Leigh in particular had gained the reputation that they could be trusted.

Sorry... Can someone please direct me to this article that you're debating in here? It's news to me that SL is either homophobic or came across as homophobic. (Or maybe I'm just missing the point!) :err

Hi Microsofty. If you look in the Articles board and check out the thread 'Simone talks to Realm magazine' you'll find a post that ILMJnet put up with links to three further threads. I must say that I was really glad to read the interview Simone did on the Afterellen site. If for no other reason , it cooled things down very nicely from the moderating point of view if you compare the debate on the Afterellen interview with debates on the earlier articles.

I'm stymied as to what's to debate. What do some people want...blood?...hair shirts, mea culpa, a pilgrimage to Mecca...

:D

Nah, no blood or hair shirts .... and need I repeat that I'm in agreement with it seems most others and everyone else who's responded? I think the world of Simone and her acting and appreciate how much care she took to give us one of the great portrayals ever of a lesbian. Having said that, one thing that's to be debated is what to read into the AE interview which could be seen as carefully constructed artifice or a genuine articulation of opinions we've all hoped Simone held. I want to believe into it as much as the next person but I've yet to be convinced and if anything abzug's suggestion that Simone must've known she was talking to the gay press makes me more skeptical rather than less. It's just one issue but if that interview is to be held up as the definitive word I think it's a fair thing to debate.

There is some percentage in debating this matter, Don'tUWish, as an investigation into how the media operates in its representation of what is around us. One tack is where the writer describes the subject in question, and puts in a few quotes from the interviewee. Where the other tack is of a straight question and answer session, a fair measure of reliability is of the depth and length of the interview. For these reasons, I have heavily weighted my preference for the AfterEllen interview as honestly representing Simone. Added to that is the additional evidence of the interviews with Mandana and Shed of similar quality. It's all the more reasonable that Simone picked up on the marvellous interview Afterellen did with Mandana, and realised the sheer quality and understanding of the interviewer.

While it can't be denied that the Afterellen has an angle on Bad Girls in making gay friendly media more high profile, I have long since been very skeptical and wary of Brit media as a whole as a trade unionist and going on antiwar marches . Besides its political untrustworthiness, too much of it is pitched at the level of your local neighbourhood gossip, narrow and second rate, believing what it wants to believe. Prime evidence for its unimaginative and negative attitude is when Bad Girls was first transmitted- they couldn't get a handle on the show and knocked BG in some shape or form or other (the tag of 'trash TV' comes to mind). In other words, it has form.

The fair question arises, why would Simone and anyone else do interviews with such media and the simple answer is that they are stuck with them to gain publicity which, as self employed jobbing actresses, is part of their job.

Jeanna has got right to the point as usual – what else can Simone say to unsay what has been attributed to her?

Sack cloth and ashes? <G> That's always a nice catholic touch.

Really, it seems like endlessly flogging a very dead horse. I'm tired of it which is why I try to stay away from these sorts of threads. It's much more interesting and constructive to debate and discuss the actual series and its themes if anyone is still interested in doing that.

When you said this, Richard, it reminded me that I don't think I ever read an interview in the British press that was written in the same way as the AfterEllen interview. That is, they sometimes have a quick q-and-a with Simone ('what's your favorite song?') or they use a few quotes of hers sprinkled throughout a longer piece. The type of q-and-a that AE offered everyone -- Mandana, Simone, Chad -- may have been a relief to them because nobody was using their words or contorting them if you will to fit the story the writer wanted to tell.

I don't understand the British media but this point is well taken. You can see the foolishness and immaturity of the British media in the few quotes that have been used as evidence of Simone's discomfort with lesbians. What I mean is, if she really did lump lesbianism with bullying or something awful of that sort, a good journalist surely would pursue that statement and find out what she meant. They wouldn't just print it. They wouldn't just leave it out there to be picked up in any old way. They would -- the writer or the next person to interview her -- ask about it and dig for the truth, rather than making a splash and walking away.

Although this brings me back to the question of why go to AfterEllen. Was it just to gain publicity? Did the 'Wire' people want her to get her lesbian fans in the US to watch the show? Maybe Richard is right and Simone saw the good treatment Mandana received and wanted the same, but would she really have seen an interview on AE? That seems unlikely.

I think the great thing about this board is there's room for discussion of all sorts of things. I don't have much to add to the wonderful analysis that's already been done of all the episodes, though I hope new fans come in with new perspectives. To me at this point the people, especially Mandana and Simone, are more interesting than the show because the people are doing new shows (I hope that includes Mandana) and they're changing and giving us new things to think about, whereas the show is unchanging. But again I think it's great to have a forum for everything.

So, I decided to go to the horse's mouth on this one, and I contacted LeeAnn through the AfterEllen site to ask her whether Simone knew she was talking to the gay press when she did the interview. This was LeeAnn's reply:

"When we spoke, Simone definitely did not know our interview was going to be published by AfterEllen or in the gay press generally. At the time, I didn't know where the article would eventually be published, and I also did not want to bias her responses by telling her the interview might be posted on AfterEllen.

"We began by talking about Wire in the Blood, and when I began asking about Bad Girls, I was pleased to discover she was more than happy to talk at length about the show and the media coverage she received. What was supposed to be a 20-minute interview stretched more than an hour, and in that initial conversation as well as those that followed, Simone has been an absolute pleasure: funny, thoughtful, sincere. She is, without a doubt, one of my all-time favorite people to interview."

I guess for some people there may always be a bit of a question mark regarding Simone's attitude around gay issues, but hopefully this information is reassuring to folks like DontUWish....

:)

I'm very grateful to Abzug for finding out this background material to the interview and goes contrary to my supposition. It is interesting that Simone didn't know where the interview would be posted on and that what she said wasn't tailored to any particular audience. It lends weight to the interview having unfolded in a pleasingly spontaneous fashion.

Thanks also for Don'tUWish for the very pertinent and accurate points about Brit media which develop the points very nicely. It relates to the depressingly few number of TV programmes that grab my interest which drops right down in summer.

That is such great news! This makes an enormous difference in how I interpret that interview.

So the interviewer approached Simone for the interview -- not the other way around. Plus, the interviewer recognized the possible bias if she did tell Simone she might be publishing the interview in the gay press. I love it!!!

What I appreciate here is the detail about the length of the interview. Simone has her fair share of interviews to do so she's probably tired of them but when the interviewer bothered to ask good questions about BG, Simone took more than an hour out of her day to talk about the show. That tells me almost as much as the words from the interview itself.

Some may not like my skepticism (if that's the right word for it) but this is precisely the kind of info I needed and I suspect some others needed to be able to trust Simone's last interview more fully.

Wow, it's really not that bad. Try reading the Guardian/Independent/Times/FT.

FTR, I believe that:

a. there's a certain ridiculousness in glorifying an actress - Lady? - to the extent that one can overlook all possible flaws.
b. there was good reason for doubting her; she has made some pretty homophobic comments in the past (I won't rehash)
c. she seems to have adequately cleared them up now.

The common assumption that Fanny alludes to is that the broadsheets listed have a greater depth of perception than tabloids and one would expect that their coverage of BG would be relatively insightful and possibly favourable as Bad Girls is an insightful programme .

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...p?showtopic=828

This post by Cool entitled ‘Guardian / Observer 2001’ on the 'Articles' board provides unsettling evidence that this needn’t be the case. While this was the first time the broadsheets gave Bad Girls favourable coverage, it still conforms to the ‘trash TV’ stereotype – example being “ Most of us can't wait to tune in for another dose of schlock which, while not insulting our intelligence, doesn't take it on a route march either.” This both bears out my point and answers Don’tUWish’s very pertinent question relating her apt description of the foolishness and immaturity of the Brit media. Conversely, LeeAnn Krieg got an article published in the Sun of all newspapers which, despite some obvious heavy handed editing in the first paragraphs, does Bad Girls proud.

What is interesting about the Afterellen interview was that Simone confesses her own understandable limitations of what might be loosely called sexual politics, then and now. For this reason, she regretted (and owned up to) describing Helen as bisexual and otherwise denied saying what had otherwise been attributed to her. The press ‘angle’ on BG ought to make the reader wary of accepting things on face value. To my thinking her acting was as near as dammit flawless and her profession is the base of her understanding of her character.

As to what she is like personally, I am limited to talking briefly to Simone as part of a group of 20ish BG fans in early 2002 when she appeared in theatre in Harold Pinter’s ‘Homecoming.’ She was perfectly gracious and charming to us all despite having done a matinee performance closely followed by an evening performance. Like Mandana whom I also have seen in theatre, Simone is also a very strong theatre actress.

I would have thought Simone had covered misconceptions as to what she’d said or hadn’t said From my small scale experience in talking to local press (in union disputes) you find things sometimes don’t come out as you intended and the media ‘angle’ described above shows how.

Anyway, so not to flog this post to death, we may all rest content that everything has been sorted out.

We've looked long and hard at this thread as it has developed and have decided to once again close it.

We are somewhat concerned that once again comments have been made to the effect that SL made homophobic comments in the past.

Now, I will reiterate - this is based on what some people have read and their own opinion on what has been published.

However, this is down quite frankly to interpretation. Some people read it one way, some another. Either could be right or wrong, but what is beginning to happen once more is definitive statements are being made, when others view the 'facts' as being completely the opposite.

This is why this whole debate has become so heated in the past. We're not trying to stifle debates, but what has become very apparent is that in the last interview, and Abzugs post about the AfterEllen interview, there has been clarification from Simone which leaves little room for doubt.

Unfortunately its not likely to ever be enough for some people and we can't change that either.

But, Simone does not deserve to be continually pulled up over this when clarifications have been made, as well as circumstances of the interview being cleared up for us.

We've now also taken the decision because of the clarification to close any future threads about this matter since it seems hardly relevant now and to post something would be seen as nothing more than trying to stir up amongst those in opposite camps, which does nothing for board harmony.

To clarify, it wasn't any one person, comment or post that has made us take the decision, rather a reflection of the whole history and now present situation we've had with the issue. We've taken the decision as well partly to reflect a few comments to us behind the scenes showing unease about this being raised again.
As we say in the board rules, we might not always get things right but we try to do what we feel is best for the overall board harmony.