ekny PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:28 pm

What's in a name?
I'm always tempted to go overboard with name meanings so put off this post for awhile; in it I tried to keep to stuff I'm reasonably sure of, but all suggestions ideas corrections welcome: anyone who's into it should definitely take it from here.

In general I think BG names its characters with... relative intent, that is, neither by playing blindfolded darts with a phone book, nor so overdetermined it's like a Dickens novel. If a name, interpretation, or association with that name heads in a direction that adds to my understanding of a character--I'm willing to go with it. At the very least, it shouldn't lead me away from my understanding of who the character is.

My thinking is not that the scriptwriters sat down with a book of baby names but rather that integrated characters who are fully imagined have good names for good reasons.



Helen Stewart: To start, I do have to say I feel they named Helen entirely deliberately. Obvious association is to Helen of Troy. Any other assumption, to me, would to be as weird as trying to get out of bed in the morning by doing a handstand: I mean hello--what else could they possibly have called her? Her name feels right/inevitable. That's the ideal for character names, imo: if you can't imagine it any other way.

I don't think we can have a major character in a British drama named Stewart & not at least consider the royal family--but to me, the more useful association is to what the Stuarts *were*, before they became royals: literally, stewards: caretakers, administrative officials--answerable to no one but God.


Nikki Wade: short for Nicola, feminine of Nicholas. Pretty hard to resist this one, too: from the Greek, 'victory of the people'. Heck, I'd be a fool to argue with that. (Imo this is a good example of when to stop while ahead: St. Nicholas is also Father Xmas, but that's just silly.)

Wade is interesting & a bit more indirect: do we go with the noun, the verb, or the pun?

Wade's a geographical name, a fairly old Middle English word for a ford (a river-crossing) (orig. Dutch for meadow or pasture). When you consider Nikki's place in the prisoner hierarchy as reluctant leader and combine that with her surname, that's evocative enough for me to leave well enough right there: associations to a heavy, difficult journey lead me to believe this character, too, was named pretty deliberately.



From this point my personal interest in the matter wanes a bit, but some basic observations might include the obvious:

Shell = shell

Yvonne: my main assoc is that it's a kind of solid, working-class name, not to any special meaning per se. Caroline's another name that has so many different 'meanings' associated w/it it doesn't really mean anything (seems appropriate). (I'm not comparing the two characters.)

Stubberfield: tempting. I always mishear this as 'Stubblefield' which would of course be all that's left after the crops have been razed. (I'm not the only one: the girls refer to him as Stubby-something, although that's not about his name so much as critique of his reign.)

Grayling: literally a small(ish) fish: a grayling is a freshwater game fish like trout, salmon.

Dominic is already a saint--the text tells us so more than once. In case we could have missed it, his name means 'belonging to God/of the lord'. Seems ah, clear to me, yes, I... I think... ok, I'll go out on a limb here: Dominic is a good guy.



Less concrete observations which may fall into the "Huh" category:

Thomas = twin.

I don't think there's much to be done with 'Doubting Thomas' on the religious side, but the mechanics of the expression gave me a raised-eyebrow-moment re his relationship to Helen: "[one] who demands physical evidence in order to be convinced (especially when this demand is out of place)."

(Waugh's also a very old name, but, again--so old I don't know that it necess 'means' anything.)


Parr's also a v old name, from Old English pearr, meaning enclosed area, as was used for cattle etc. (some definitions given as 'from the stable'). Easy to make jokes about, but I've been thinking... is Sean's last name in fact ever used in the show, or do we only know it from the BG book?

If Sean effectively *has* no last name in the show proper, then heck, how could Helen possibly take it in marriage? Obviously she can't. ;)

(ek's belief that he's a boy, not a man, would seem to be reinforced by this: neither Dom nor Thom have this little problem with the last-name-thing.)


Family names (I'm not into genealogy, this is all news to me) are apparently classed in different ways, for ex by occupation (John Cooper); geography (John Hill), etc. Parr is a habitation name.

Last edited by ekny on Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:44 am; edited 3 times in total
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ekny PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:11 pm

Re: What's in a name?
ekny wrote:
associations to a heavy, difficult journey lead me to believe this character, too, was named pretty deliberately.


A friend commented, in response, "A ford is not just the route in a difficult journey, it is the path one follows to get to a far shore, the 'Other Shore' being a symbol of Nirvana in Buddhism, a place of rest and peace."

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abzug PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:49 pm

Great analysis, ekny! I think all the associations you have drawn out are very illuminating.

Its funny, I had been thinking about names of characters, but not with anything approaching the knowledge and insight you just brought to it. I had more been wondering about characters who have nicknames (ie Shell, Denny, Nikki, Buki, Shaz) and those who don't (Helen, Monica, Barbara). It struck me as something worth examining because in each case, there is a Reveal moment when the character is first called by their full name (Michelle, Daniella, Nicola etc), and because Shaz was SO insistent that she be called Shaz and not Sharon. My thoughts, in no particular order:

--Issues of identity in general (what you're called becomes who you are)
--the way the prisoners are treated as children (and are therefore referred to in the diminutive
--the way being in prison prevents people from being their true selves
--the way so many of these characters were stunted due to abusive/neglectful situations in their childhoods

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ekny PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:58 pm

hiya, I started off quoting your whole thing but am three toes out the door to get dinner (aka pizza) so will just wonder, for now: should we add something about whether a name is 'real' or not to your list, whether that means anything? I'm not sure--really just asking. Shaz, for example, is one of the *only* names in the series that is totally made-up/invented. Maybe Buki too. Dunno, what thinks you?

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:12 pm

Goodness someone has been doing a lot of research...lol..great topic

Wade is also to 'wade in' not just in water but into a situation,

phrasal verb:
wade in or into

To plunge into, begin, or attack resolutely and energetically: waded into the task. waded through the boring report.

[Middle English waden, from Old English wadan.]


Which is what Nikki does ..especially if it concerns an 'underdog' Carol Rachel [well sort of] ..she can't help trying to make thing just and right. Even when protecting Trish she just 'waded' in

You could even say that she 'waded' into a relationship with Helen??


SHELL is short for Michelle

The girl's name Michelle is pronounced mee-SHELL. It is of French and Hebrew origin, and its meaning is "who resembles God." Feminine form of Michael. A popular name when it was first used in the 1940s, and made even more so by the Beatles' famous song "Michelle" in the 1970s. Popular in Germany. Actresses Michelle Pfeiffer, Sara Michelle Gellar; singer Me'Shell N'Degé Ocello; figure skater Michelle Kwan

Hmmm...not sure about this one..well Shell *thinks* she's God ...lol
Over here Michelle is a nice name but Shell is a bit 'common' ..no offence to any Shell's out there Shocked

Another good one is Jim....short for James

James means supplanter
supplanter - one who wrongfully or illegally seizes and holds the place of another

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abzug PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:26 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:

James means supplanter
supplanter - one who wrongfully or illegally seizes and holds the place of another

Oooooh, that IS a good one! But it does make you wonder why anyone would give that name to their child....

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:32 pm

Shaz is quite a common nick-name for a Sharon.

(Like Baz is a nick-name for Barry which in turn can be short for Basil. OR Gaz or Gazza being short for Garry) Maybe it's an English thing?

Buki..there are quite a few people of West African origin in the Uk especially Nigerian ~I was going to suggest that Buki could be an African name??

Buki also relates to martial arts..
Buki Jutsu translates from Japanese into English as meaning Weapons Techniques. Buki Jutsu is the Weapons division of any Martial Art that incorporates weaponry within their style. but I think that's irrelevant!

Monica and Barbara are good old fashioned solid middle class names.


***
Thinking about names ...Some thing's occurred to me..

I have a son called Thomas and his best mate is Sean

My nurse friend is called Janine [which I think was the name of the nurse who helped Nikki] and my neighbour is called Helen *Carr*..I could go on but this belongs on the life immitating art thread or somewhere else I think ...lmso

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ekny PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:38 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
SHELL is short for Michelle

Hmmm...not sure about this one..well Shell *thinks* she's God


Hi CookUK1, that part of my post might've been too blunt: to me, Shell *is* a shell. She's not whole, she never will be: too damaged. --e

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abzug PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:42 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
Shaz is quite a common nick-name for a Sharon.

(Like Baz is a nick-name for Barry which in turn can be short for Basil. OR Gaz or Gazza being short for Garry) Maybe it's an English thing?

I actually have (had, I guess, its been years) a friend in Australia whose name was Carolyn, but went by the nickname Cas (pronounced Caz). But its not a diminutive form that you EVER hear in the US.

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:47 pm

Gotcha
We sometimes say that a person is a 'shell' of their former self ..as in *empty*..vacuous???

Vacuous
Adjective
1. Complacently or inanely foolish.

2. Devoid of significance or point; "empty promises"; "a hollow victory"; "vacuous comments".


Actually When you see what Shell's mother is like there's no wonder is it ??

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:51 pm

Oh yes I'd forgotten Caz ...lol

Taz for Tasmin, Tasminda etc

Ive heard Maz too but I can't remember what it's short for~ something like Matilda maybe?

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:59 pm

Just found a Nigerian actress called

Buki Ajayi


IMDbPro Professional Details

Filmography as: Actress

Actress - filmography

Thunderbolt (2001) (V)


Well that solves that then

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ekny PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:11 am

Re: Gotcha
COOLUK1 wrote:
Actually When you see what Shell's mother is like there's no wonder is it ??


That actor was way, way past scary-looking.

My friend, the wit, writes (I figured heaps of abuse & crapulous language was more than appropriate given the subject):

A "fenner" is someone who lives in a marshy area, another word for "marsh" is "bog," "bog" is slang for "toilet," that which lives in a toilet is a piece of shit. Da-dah!

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Jeanna PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:40 am

Well this is fiendishly entertaining and clever. Thanks guys. The naming of names had lightly brushed across my mind in a momentary search for greater significance...but I'm so glad you did all the brain work there. :)

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:17 am

Jeanna wrote:
Well this is fiendishly entertaining and clever. Thanks guys. The naming of names had lightly brushed across my mind in a momentary search for greater significance...but I'm so glad you did all the brain work there. :)


Very interesting, never knew there could be quite so much insight simply from somebodys name.

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:40 am

Like 'Fenner' very appropriate...lol

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:50 am

Mandana...... Everlasting


Simone...... One who hears

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song_stress PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:01 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Mandana...... Everlasting


Simone...... One who hears


I like those! are those really the meanings?

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:50 pm

song_stress wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Mandana...... Everlasting


Simone...... One who hears


I like those! are those really the meanings?


Apparently so . Yes.

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:57 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
song_stress wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Mandana...... Everlasting


Simone...... One who hears


I like those! are those really the meanings?


Apparently so . Yes.


I love it!

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:58 pm

Toni~girl wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
song_stress wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Mandana...... Everlasting


Simone...... One who hears


I like those! are those really the meanings?


Apparently so . Yes.


I love it!


Guess what yours means?

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:59 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Toni~girl wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
song_stress wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Mandana...... Everlasting


Simone...... One who hears


I like those! are those really the meanings?


Apparently so . Yes.


I love it!


Guess what yours means?


Rolling Eyes
I give up! Smile

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:00 pm

Worthy of praise Laughing

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:02 pm

where you finding out what names mean?

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:04 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
where you finding out what names mean?

Wouildn't you like to know? Rolling Eyes

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:04 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Worthy of praise Laughing


Really? Shocked

Wow, thanks for sharing that. (now I feel important)

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Exclamation

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song_stress PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:05 pm

okay besides Lily.....what does Susan mean?
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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:10 pm

song_stress wrote:
okay besides Lily.....what does Susan mean?


sorry Lily is the only one I can find for Susan, is that your name?

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:11 pm

what does clare mean? hmmmmmmmmmm

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song_stress PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:12 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
song_stress wrote:
okay besides Lily.....what does Susan mean?


sorry Lily is the only one I can find for Susan, is that your name?



yes .....
but only when I am in trouble....
much prefer Sue

notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:13 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
what does clare mean? hmmmmmmmmmm


Bright shining and clear Laughing
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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:14 pm

song_stress wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
song_stress wrote:
okay besides Lily.....what does Susan mean?


sorry Lily is the only one I can find for Susan, is that your name?



yes .....
but only when I am in trouble....
much prefer Sue


No danger of being in trouble here! Wink Rolling Eyes

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:14 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
what does clare mean? hmmmmmmmmmm


Bright shining and clear Laughing


haha i thank you from the bottom of my black heart for finding that out

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:18 pm

Well maybe they are not always completely accurate Laughing

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:19 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Well maybe they are not always completely accurate Laughing


lmao Laughing

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:20 pm

death is in love with me..i doubt im a very bright person...

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:22 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
death is in love with me..i doubt im a very bright person...


As long as you are true to yourself! Wink

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:23 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
death is in love with me..i doubt im a very bright person...


Hey come on now SR, you seem very bright and bubbly on here.

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song_stress PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:25 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Well maybe they are not always completely accurate Laughing


ROTFL

you didn't just type that

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:26 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
death is in love with me..i doubt im a very bright person...


Hey come on now SR, you seem very bright and bubbly on here.


This is true! Wink
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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:26 pm

dont be fooled...i am a deeply disturbed child with self harm and suicide issues

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song_stress PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:27 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
death is in love with me..i doubt im a very bright person...


Hey come on now SR, you seem very bright and bubbly on here.


yeah where would we be without your pics? Shocked

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:27 pm

song_stress wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
death is in love with me..i doubt im a very bright person...


Hey come on now SR, you seem very bright and bubbly on here.


yeah where would we be without your pics? Shocked


Shocked Shocked DITTO!

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:28 pm

Toni~girl wrote:
song_stress wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
death is in love with me..i doubt im a very bright person...


Hey come on now SR, you seem very bright and bubbly on here.


yeah where would we be without your pics? Shocked


Shocked Shocked DITTO!


AWW

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song_stress PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:29 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
dont be fooled...i am a deeply disturbed child with self harm and suicide issues


SR I've been down one of those routes
It does get better

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:30 pm

song_stress wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
dont be fooled...i am a deeply disturbed child with self harm and suicide issues


SR I've been down one of those routes
It does get better


It always eventually gets better.

Life is what we make it. You have the reins.

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:31 pm

song_stress wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
dont be fooled...i am a deeply disturbed child with self harm and suicide issues


SR I've been down one of those routes
It does get better


yup...im on anti depressents..they suck..i od a couple o months ago...i cut up..im struggling with my sexuality...i have a very fucked family..Im the poster child for everything that sucks haha but i do love simone

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:32 pm

song_stress wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
dont be fooled...i am a deeply disturbed child with self harm and suicide issues


SR I've been down one of those routes
It does get better


I think everyone experiences periods of doom and gloom at some point, hang on in there, things have a way of sorting themselves out, and life should become easier

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:33 pm

thanks man
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song_stress PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:34 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
song_stress wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
dont be fooled...i am a deeply disturbed child with self harm and suicide issues


SR I've been down one of those routes
It does get better


yup...im on anti depressents..they suck..i od a couple o months ago...i cut up..im struggling with my sexuality...i have a very fucked family..Im the poster child for everything that sucks haha but i do love simone


stay on the antidepressants and do what makes you happy in the meantime.

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:35 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
thanks man


You are very welcome babe, any time you need to talk you know where I am.

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:37 pm

aww simone and mandana lovers unite to form an unbreakable force...

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:40 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
aww simone and mandana lovers unite to form an unbreakable force...


Thats the spirit, now just keep those pics coming and no more dark thoughts OK?

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Simone_Rocks PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:41 pm

indeed...today is a good day...i must go for dinner but ill be back later to post away

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:43 pm

Simone_Rocks wrote:
indeed...today is a good day...i must go for dinner but ill be back later to post away


Enjoy your dinner Smile

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:46 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
Simone_Rocks wrote:
indeed...today is a good day...i must go for dinner but ill be back later to post away


Enjoy your dinner Smile


Have good one love!

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abzug PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:48 pm

Wade and Fenner
I think the Fenner name meaning is incredibly interesting, particularly given how it resonates with the implied meaning of the name Wade. The idea of Fenner living in a marshy environment makes total sense, because he doesn't rely on anything solid, he shifts and adjusts and manipulates everything malleable in a situation. In addition, from a morality perspective, in a marsh, nothing is definitive--everything is murky and mixed together. So very Fenner, no?

Meanwhile, Wade is a name which obviously connotes crossing over bodies of water (which would include a marsh!), and the difficulty of that journey. I think that pretty much sums up Nikki's struggle in Larkhall, where Fenner really is her main obstacle. Its particularly interesting given Nikki's highly developed sense of right and wrong--she cuts through all that marshy malleability of Fenner's amoral nature.

ETA, no wonder Nikki can't "stay out his way" as Helen suggests--what wader could be expected to not cross a marsh and constantly run into a fenner?!

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ekny PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:40 pm

Re: Fenner
abzug wrote:
In addition, from a morality perspective, in a marsh, nothing is definitive--everything is murky and mixed together. So very Fenner, no?


Very. Also another man's surname which is geographic in origin; it's beginning to seem they do that more with men's names than women's, which would agree with the female-centered orientation of the show, i.e. the women's names might be a bit more biased towards 'meaning' (significance) than the men's. I might be arriving at a premature conclusion, though.

Given the moral implications of 'Fenner', it's also interesting to note that Daniella (feminine of Daniel) means 'the lord (or God) is my judge', which although a bit more ambiguous than Dominic puts Denny square in the goody arena. Particularly notable bec of Denny's original introduction as a bully & gradual redemption, starting with her ability to recognize moral culpability around Rachel's suicide. (SPOILER:)



Ultimately, of course, Denny's also one of the (very) few characters given a happy ending.

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HeavenlyHelen PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:02 pm

Perhaps Di Barker is so-called because she's plain barking...

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abzug PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:20 pm

Re: Fenner
ekny wrote:
Ultimately, of course, Denny's also one of the (very) few characters given a happy ending.

Interesting. I wonder if we made a list of happy ending characters, do the lesbians come out better than the others on average? Because it is striking that the first two lesbian characters on the show (Denny and Nikki) both have happy endings, when so few other characters do. I guess Monica does, and Babs. So maybe there is a class issue here (middle class more likely to come out ok), but with a lesbian twist. This is where Shed's political viewpoint comes into play, because lesbians on tv and film so often have tragic endings, so they have some desire to play against that, and give as many lesbian happy endings as they can (given the context of the show, where happy endings are rare).

Jeanna PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:47 pm

Smile

EKNY SAYS:
Quote:
Agree with Abzug & Jeanna (& no doubt tons of others!) abt the redistribution of happy endings in our favor. Cassie & Rosin also have a (somewhat deus ex machina) happy ending, i.e. it's outside the parameter of their set of problems, but it worked well in context & got them off the show so I'll settle for that.

Found HH's comment abt Di to the point & amusing, she is bonkers & just gets moreso, so Barking seems pretty apt. ; )

Was thinking Denny's last name also indicates her char trajectory isn't, ah, without struggle, which feels just.

(ETA this is an ekny post, I really screwed the pooch somehow & edited something I shouldn't have, I apologize. Am still learning my way around new controls & evidently clicked before I blinked. My apologies!!!)


Yikes. I wonder what I said that you agreed with. I wish I could remember. LOL

I think I must've pointed out the total scarcity of happy endings for lesbians when I was growing up. We all read sad books like "Well of Loneliness" or D.H. Lawrence's "The Fox," or saw sad plays and films like "The Children's Hr." when we were teens and we were pretty much conditioned to expect a tragic demise of at least half of any lesbian pairing. Often by death, often suicide. Happy endings are a rarity. That's one reason why this love story has and will continue to have I think such longevity in our hearts. Things have been glacially changing and now we have a few books and films and even romantic comedies that suggest two women can live happily ever after. Is that at all something like what I said here, ekny? <G>

Last edited by Jeanna on Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:04 pm; edited 3 times in total

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HeavenlyHelen PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:08 pm

Jeanna wrote:
Agree with Abzug & Jeanna (& no doubt tons of others!) abt the redistribution of happy endings in our favor. Cassie & Rosin also have a (somewhat deus ex machina) happy ending, i.e. it's outside the parameter of their set of problems, but it worked well in context & got them off the show so I'll settle for that.

Found HH's comment abt Di to the point & amusing, she is bonkers & just gets moreso, so Barking seems pretty apt. ; )

Was thinking Denny's last name also indicates her char trajectory isn't, ah, without struggle, which feels just.


Well thanks for the above; I was also thinking about Denny's name, which seems apt for someone who started out something of a bully, if you want to view her less sympathetically. In her favour she has had an interesting character development, though I would hardly call her ending 'happy'. ekny: what <i>can</i> you be thinking of? I'd call it merely a compromise given what went before. But maybe that's just me. Rolling Eyes

As for Nikki, I suppose you could say she's been wading through a sea of crap for most of her life. Wade isn't such an unusual name but Fenner is - at least I'd never heard it before the show; its very rarity allows for a uniquely-named and memorable villain not to be confused with any other of an even vaguely similar handle, because there simply are none. It gives distinction in one sense, though it's phonetically odd, in that it slides off the tongue, unlike the short, sharp, solid 'punch' of Wade; despite its two syllables, it's actually less distinct, more amorphous and part concealed. Fenner to a t, no, even discounting the implied geographical meaning of the name?

I believe ekny mentioned on another thread about Fenner being bad but not beyond redemption... (or did I get this wrong?). Well clinically I don't think he fits the psychopath profile (incurably 'bad') simply because he suffered psychotic episodes (who could forget the bare-assed parade through G wing), cold sweats and nightmares, medication dependency. From what I read, psychopaths and psychotics are opposite ends of the spectrum; psychopaths' nervous systems being naturally wired not to suffer from the sort of stress-related and other neuroses that normal (by contrast) people suffer, or the psychoses of the 'mad'. He's a manipulative psychotic with a seriously nasty streak, but I think Hannibal Lecter would have him for breakfast any day - in every sense of the term. Shocked

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abzug PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:33 am

Is there anything to be gleaned from the androgynous nicknames of Nikki and Denny? Maybe there is something about the nature of nicknames being taken on, rather than given to. A nickname is the one aspect of control people have in their their named identity (ie her mother named her Daniella, but she chooses to go by Denny--what does that say about her?). Its not like Nikki or Denny are androgynous, particularly when compared to someone like Al (hey, another androgynous nickname!). Ok, now I'm thinking, are there ANY straight characters who have androgynous nicknames? I don't think so....

Clearly I have no idea where I am going with this, but it did seem interesting, something about gender identity/presentation and sexuality.

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:04 am

abzug wrote:
Ok, now I'm thinking, are there ANY straight characters who have androgynous nicknames? I don't think so....

Clearly I have no idea where I am going with this, but it did seem interesting, something about gender identity/presentation and sexuality.


You'd have to make a special category for the two-Julies, almost. The 'second' Julie takes on the name of the first, but not her surname (it's not a marriage, per se); the platonic nature of the relationship still surpasses (to reference Faderman) their other relationships (Julie 1 coming back to prison to be with Julie 2 when she psychs out her suicidal state of mind--despite her son & possible bf waiting for her outside). Both the terms of 'naming', then--not only do they 'share' a name, they as a unit require their own special designation--& also the kind of relationship it is mark it off as special/different. It's worth considering whether the comedic presentation undercuts the exceptional nature of their devotion, although ultimately as their storylines get more serious, I'd have to say I don't think so....

Hi Jeanna, I'm all phobic about 'quoting' now so am cutting my chances of effing up this late at night & tagging on a quick reply to poor Bella's msg (sorry!); I think that was the jist of what you'd said before, and yeah, we sure do have a long, long history of really lousy endings to books, tv shows, films, what have you. So definitely the 'happy ending' thing with N & H has to count pretty significantly in any evaluation of why it's so near & dear to us. (Gawd, where *was* that thread...?! I wish we could rearrange things at the end of every night to fall into a logical place. Oh well....)
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Jeanna PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:10 pm

ekny wrote:
Hi Jeanna, I'm all phobic about 'quoting' now so am cutting my chances of effing up this late at night & tagging on a quick reply to poor Bella's msg (sorry!); I think that was the jist of what you'd said before, and yeah, we sure do have a long, long history of really lousy endings to books, tv shows, films, what have you. So definitely the 'happy ending' thing with N & H has to count pretty significantly in any evaluation of why it's so near & dear to us.


Especially when you consider that all the ominous notes of foreshadowing are put in place for the possibility of a tragic outcome. (Spoiler free at the end of series two I just didn't see how things could possibly end well.) Instead they stood the conventional expectation on its head by giving them a happy ending. They, and the viewers, deserved that.

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ekny PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:39 pm

Jeanna wrote:
Especially when you consider that all the ominous notes of foreshadowing are put in place for the possibility of a tragic outcome. (Spoiler free at the end of series two I just didn't see how things could possibly end well.)


Neither did I; I had ~ a month & a half waiting for S3 discs & spent a shameless amt of time fretting over all possible permutations. In the end I could see only 1 way it could be resolved happily; despite odds being against a 'happy ending', it nevertheless made perfect sense, given how they'd set things up, & was better storytelling that they do so.

Jeanna wrote:
Instead they stood the conventional expectation on its head by giving them a happy ending. They, and the viewers, deserved that.


That was my overriding feeling/argument in favor. It was their flagship show's most crucial storyline. To bring back two characters the audience loved just to torture the audience wouldn't have made much sense. If you start the season with a disaster, you don't end it with one, too. All indicators pointed to reversing the 'tragedy' trajectory.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:24 pm

What's in a name?
abzug, while there may not be "ANY straight characters who have androgenous nicknames", in the big scheme of things of Bad Girls there is one straight "character" who features quite prominently, who has a man's "nickname" (pseudonym) and that is George Eliot! Like other early woman writers (the Bronte sisters for example) she adopted a male pseudonym so that she could have "all the advantages without the disagreeables of reputation". The fact that we see Nikki reading Eliot so often, and that Helen mentions it several times and the fact that G.E. becomes significant to their relationship in the cards that Nikki gets from Helen after her resignation - the first indicator to Nikki that Helen wishes to continue their relationship, surely must be significant.

George Eliot was a bit of an outcast in Victorian society, because she dared to live openly with a married man George Lewes. (Whose name she adopted as her pseudonym, as well as adopting his surname in real life, although she was never actually legally married to him - she changed her name from Mary Ann Evans to Marian Evans and then Marian Lewes.) Eliot in fact eloped with Lewes to Germany in 1854. She risked/endured not only the disapproval of society, but also of her family to be with Lewes. (Her parents were already dead, but her brother disowned her after she set up house with Lewes and they were only reconciled after Lewes death after 25 years with Eliot.) This "forbidden" relationship surely has parallels with Helen and Nikki. Eliot was also well read and well educated, to the extent that her father feared that she would never find a husband! Her friend Charles Bray noted that she was "the most delightful companion I have ever known; she knew everything...But there were two sides;...she was frequently very depressed - and often very provoking, as much so as she could be agreeable - and we had violent quarrels" - sound familiar? Very Happy

As I am looking at H & N's significant authors' names here, I will push my luck and mention Jostein Gaarder. Doesn't that name perhaps have echoes in Helen being Nikki's jailer - she is her guard(er). There is also possibly the suggestion of a guardian - they both assume this role - Nikki in protecting Helen's career when Monica attempts suicide, her generally speaking up in support of her and in ultimately rescuing the situation during the riot, even if she has been the direct cause of it. (Although I have asked myself the question of whether the riot would still have happened one way or another, because the Peckham Gang were looking for trouble & power on the wing. But that is a different discussion entirely - I just thought it might have been interesting if there hadn't been Nikki's perceived betrayal of Helen, and instead she had played this role of bringing about the resolution of the riot, how differently might things have panned out!) Helen too is a guardian to Nikki, in sneaking her back into prison after her escape and in resigning to protect her appeal.

Okay okay! I'll leave it there! I know I'm pushing it! Laughing

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:07 pm

Re: What's in a name?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
abzug, while there may not be "ANY straight characters who have androgenous nicknames", in the big scheme of things of Bad Girls there is one straight "character" who features quite prominently, who has a man's "nickname" (pseudonym) and that is George Eliot!

Of course! Brilliant connection! And your background on George Elliot is so illuminating. I didn't know enough biographical details about her to understand that level of resonance with the characters, but it seems even more significant than the themes of Elliot's novels, which had been my line of interpretation previously.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:50 pm

What's in a name?
There is a philosophy link with George Eliot too! Eliot wrote several reviews of books on philosophy for a newspaper. She also met Ralph Waldo Emerson at her friend Charles Bray's house.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:08 am

What's in a name?
ekny, you made the point that "A 'Fenner' is someone who lives in a marshy area, another word for a 'marsh' is 'bog' "- well while I was contemplating Abzug's new-found interest in Fenner, I was reminded again of Shell's reference to his dick (sorry to bring that organ up again...er,sorry - bad pun!) as being "bog-standard"! And no, sit down ekny, you are not asking what the etymology of that particular phrase is!

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:28 pm

Re: What's in a name?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
ekny, you made the point that "A 'Fenner' is someone who lives in a marshy area, another word for a 'marsh' is 'bog' "


The witty bunch of associations from Fenner to shite was a quote (w/permission) from a friend, ackshually!

Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
- well while I was contemplating Abzug's new-found interest in Fenner, I was reminded again of Shell's reference to his dick [...] as being "bog-standard"!


I always assumed that meant Shell was simply saying: nothing extraordinary or remotely unusual there, same thing you'd see if you were a fly on the basin at any gents' loo.

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Evangelist PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:51 pm

Brilliant points on George Eliot....I also think there is some validity in the mirroring of Eliot being a Victorian....the prison being from Victorian times...and the likeness of the strictures under which Nikki and Helen "have" a relationship, to the sexual mores of Victorian England.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:18 am

What's in a name?
I was just making the point ekny, that the man "from the bog" has got a "bog-standard" dick!
I am probably way off here, but is it possible that with Nikki's surname, there is a suggestion of "weighed"? Linking to the scales of justice which have not been balanced in her case - she is a "lesbian cop-killer" and as such she hasn't been given a fair trial. It is Helen's job to ensure that the miscarriage of justice is redressed, and balance the scales.

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ekny PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:34 pm

Re: What's in a name?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
is it possible that with Nikki's surname, there is a suggestion of "weighed"?


Don't think you're off at all; that's what I was alluding to in the original post when I wrote "do we go with the noun, the verb, or the pun?" Agree w/your following suggestion.

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abzug PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:41 pm

Re: What's in a name?
ekny wrote:
I wrote "do we go with the noun, the verb, or the pun?"

Ah, and I thought by verb you meant "wade" as in walk through knee-deep water, not "weighed" as in the scales of justice. Smile Nice association there, JAMBF--I like it a lot.
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ekny PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: What's in a name?
abzug wrote:
ekny wrote:
I wrote "do we go with the noun, the verb, or the pun?"

Ah, and I thought by verb you meant "wade" as in walk through knee-deep water, not "weighed" as in the scales of justice. :-) Nice association there, JAMBF--I like it a lot.


Bofe!

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:05 am

What's in a name?
I was thinking about the pun aspect of some of the other names. Like Barbara Hunt for example - Barbara the believer in soul mates, has had a successful hunt in finding Peter, who she believed was her soul mate, but then like a hunter, she killed him!

Karen Betts takes a gamble on her relationship with Fenner, it is probably against her better judgement, because she knows from past experience that he didn't attempt to stay in touch after their fling at the conference. She always seems to bet on the wrong man, her ex husband, Fenner, Richie Atkins. She also backs Fenner against Helen, something which she lives to regret.

Crystal Gordon - everything about Crystal seems clear, she is firm & clear in her Christian beliefs and will not be swayed from her religious convictions, despite the difficulties of being imprisoned. She knows that she wants a serious relationship with Josh, and sets out all the rules regarding that relationship to him right from the outset. She is a no nonsense sort of person, she has clear opinions on issues of injustice and doesn't hesitate to speak up where she sees injustice. There is just the one dichotomy - this seemingly transparent/honest person is a shoplifter!
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abzug PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:26 pm

These are great, JAMBF--spot on. I like the name association with Crystal in particular, because her "moral clarity" has always grated at me. I think the idea of Barbara as a hunter is interesting in contrast, because she is always seeking out (ie hunting) and examining every moral issue, and coming up with her own answer.

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AC0018 PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:47 pm

Sean The Prawn!
ekny wrote:
If Sean effectively *has* no last name in the show proper, then heck, how could Helen possibly take it in marriage? Obviously she can't. Wink

I swear I wasn't paying to much attention to the 'posh plant git' but his surname was printed on the side of his truck when he drives into the prison during Love Hurts and moments later the gate officer phones Helen to tell her Mr Parr has arrived.

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:52 pm

Re: Sean The Prawn!
AC0018 wrote:
ekny wrote:
If Sean effectively *has* no last name in the show proper, then heck, how could Helen possibly take it in marriage? Obviously she can't. ;)

I swear I wasn't paying to much attention to the 'posh plant git' but his surname was printed on the side of his truck when he drives into the prison during Love Hurts and moments later the gate officer phones Helen to tell her Mr Parr has arrived.


Thanks, I appreciate your getting back on this! I was pretty sure it'd been mentioned, but talk about 'in passing'. I think I can still marginally rationalize my point on this one, though it's pushing it a bit. But *so* tempting. I don't think anyone here would really take objection. ;)

Thanks again, it's so great when other people help pin stuff down. --e

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AC0018 PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:26 pm

Re: Sean The Prawn!
No objection here.

I think the name stuck in my mind because Parr was the surname of my ex girlfriend. No she wasn't happy about it either.

Besides, we all know that Wade was a much more important surname for Helen to be thinking about. Wink
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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:15 pm

Sean

The prawn ~ God's Gracious gift?
Maybe a gift to the script writers.

Sean / Shaun / Shane
All these names are variations of the Irish form of John which in turn came from the French "Jean" meaning "God's gracious gift". The "Shane" variation is sometimes used in Northern Ireland in memory of Shane O'Neill who defeated the army of Elizabeth I in the 16th century - and was given a boost by the classic Western movie "Shane" starring Alan Ladd. Sean (rhyming with 'dawn') has become popular in part as a result of the fame of Sean Connery. Sean was the 24th most popular boys' name to be registered in 1999 with Shaun 51st.

JOHN [Sean, Jean]
Gender: Masculine

Usage: English, Biblical
Pronounced: JAHN [key]

English form of Iohannes, which was the Latin form of the Greek name Ιωαννης (Ioannes), itself derived from the Hebrew name יוֹחָנָן (Yochanan) meaning "YAHWEH is gracious". This name owes its consistent popularity to two New Testament characters, both highly revered as saints. The first was John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus Christ and a victim of beheading by Herod Antipas. The second was the apostle John, also supposedly the author of the fourth Gospel and Revelation. The name has been borne by 23 popes, as well as kings of England, Hungary, Poland, Portugal and France. It was also borne by the poet John Milton and the philosopher John Locke.

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Jules2 PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:00 pm

Re: What's in a name?
ekny wrote:
Wade is interesting & a bit more indirect: do we go with the noun, the verb, or the pun?

Wade's a geographical name, a fairly old Middle English word for a ford (a river-crossing) (orig. Dutch for meadow or pasture). When you consider Nikki's place in the prisoner hierarchy as reluctant leader and combine that with her surname, that's evocative enough for me to leave well enough right there: associations to a heavy, difficult journey lead me to believe this character, too, was named pretty deliberately.


.


Actually Weide would be dutch for meadow or pasture. Wade doesn't mean anything in dutch

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ekny PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: What's in a name?
Jules2 wrote:
ekny wrote:
Wade is interesting & a bit more indirect: do we go with the noun, the verb, or the pun?

Wade's a geographical name, a fairly old Middle English word for a ford (a river-crossing) (orig. Dutch for meadow or pasture). When you consider Nikki's place in the prisoner hierarchy as reluctant leader and combine that with her surname, that's evocative enough for me to leave well enough right there: associations to a heavy, difficult journey lead me to believe this character, too, was named pretty deliberately.


Actually Weide would be dutch for meadow or pasture. Wade doesn't mean anything in dutch


Thanks for the correction! I was stitching stuff together from a variety of surname/geneaology places so I didn't bother quoting, which I'm usually more careful about. ;)

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Jules2 PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:52 pm

I must say i liked the stichting stuff together. It is a little far fetched but i like that! :D Ohh and thanks for not thinking i was a pain in the butt for posting the previous!
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abzug PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:38 pm

I was reviewing some old interviews with the cast, and one of the things they talked about was the real life prisoners they spoke with when they visited prison. And they mentioned that the prisoners all dissociated themselves from their crime in some way: I didn't do it, or It wasn't my fault etc.

Why am I bringing this up in the name thread? Because it occurred to me that the two characters who explicitly and actively insist on the use of their nicknames are Shell (most notably in the escape episode, during the news report) and Shaz (during her first few episodes). Who are also the two characters guilty of the most heinous crimes. Who have least integrated those crimes and their guilt--they've not taken responsibility as others like Nikki, Babs, Yvonne have done.

And it occurred to me that this insistence on the use of a nickname is a further part of this dissociation, this refusal/inability to accept the guilt and responsibility of having killed someone. Because in demanding the nickname, its a way of saying: I am not the person who committed this crime, I am not my official identity in the eyes of the law and government, I am instead a person, a self of my own making. I'm not Michelle Dockley, torturer and murderer, I'm Shell.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:40 pm

Somebody mentioned some of the characters having Saints' names. Here are some interesting points in that regard.
Among other things, St Barbara is the patron saint of prisoners, martyrs, firefighters, and a protector against fire and against explosions! Given Babs' history of being sent to prison for ending Peter's suffering, and her presence in the library during the whole Snowball bomb and subsequent fire, this is quite intriguing!
St Monica is the patron saint of abuse victims, married women and mothers - a large part of Monica's speech after her appeal covers these topics, and a lot of who she is revolves around her role as a mother.
St Dominic is the patron saint of falsely accused people - he does speak up for Helen when Nikki accuses her of being involved with him, and defends her to the other officers when they suggest she is incompetent.

By the way ekny, Monica Lewinsky has got really ugly in her old age hasn't she? Laughing

Did we ever talk about Colin Hedges in this thread? Talk about a perfect last name for someone who can't make a commitment or stick to anything, or be counted on in any way. I get a little laugh out of it every time I think of his name, because it could be a sentence on its own: Colin hedges. (Does this make me a major geek?)

Kevin is Irish/Gaelic in origin & means gentle, lovable.
Anglicized form of the Irish name Caoimhín, derived from the older Irish Coemgen, composed of the Old Irish elements coem "kind, gentle, handsome" and gein "birth".

Obviously I am ignoring this as completely inapplicable.


"Spier is a variant of Speer (prob derives from Old English spere = spear or maker of spears. Variations include: Spear, Speir, Spier (Scotland) and Speer (N. Ireland).) In part it may also have been a metonymic occupational name for a maker of spears."

For those pursuing the phallic line of interpretation, the associations are evident.


But if Fenner is fascist man, it's hard to resist the idea that Spier is a futher devolution.

homonym/variant is Speer, see: Albert, Nazi architect

Oooh, nicely done, and I would suggest that the first name analysis applies as well, if merely for its irony. Like Joy Masterton, another character who's last name is far more apt than her first, purposefully so.

You're right about the irony, they're both pretty humorless--at least Joy is initially, Spier completely--so I forgot to do their characters the courtesy of adding that extra dimension when considering their names. ;)

Another ironic first name: Phyl. Which means love, of course. And is the name of possibly the most selfish character on the show (other than Natalie, of course). Perhaps in her case its self-love? ;)

Nice. Of course, being a con... how can she ever be *sure*?! ;)

I was thinking about "Joy" while I was exercising this morning and watching some more of series 7 ep 12. "Joy" has connotations of "Strength through Joy" which I first heard about in the 1980s when a Brit skin head band was strongly denounced for the racist and Nazi connotations of it's "Strength thru' Oi" song. As far as I was aware "oi" was initially a working class expression that had no racist or fascist connotations.

I did a google search to find out more about the Nazi use of Strenght through Joy as I couldn't remember much about it. Well by mistake I typed the abbreviation thru & one of the first sites it thru up was a wikipedia entry on "oi" which also referred to the skin "strength thru joy" and has a link to an entry about the Nazi slogan of "Strength through Joy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_Through_Joy

I have more to say on this re series 7 so I'll say it on the series 7 thread.

Have we ever discussed the name "Larkhall" in this thread? Its the kind of thing which is so right out there in front of you that you never even think to think about it, but its worth including in this thread. Bad Girls was originally going to be called "Jailbirds" so they were clearly going for a bird motif with the name Larkhall (Shell also had that pet bird in S1, which couldn't have been accidental). Birds are obviously a powerful metaphor for women who are locked up (ie unable to fly free).

There's not a lot of info about the Lark in general, but the skylark is a common lark in the UK, and here is what Wikipedia has to say about it:

It is a bird of open farmland and heath. It is known throughout its range for the song of the male birds [...] The males have broader wings than the females. This adaptation for more efficient hovering flight has probably evolved owing to female birds' preference for males that hover and sing for longer periods - probably as an indicator of overall fitness.

Like most other larks, it is a rather dull-looking species on the ground, mainly brown above and pale below, and with a short blunt erectile crest. [...] They spend a lot of time on the ground looking for food and they have sturdy legs. It feeds on seeds supplemented with insects in the breeding season. The skylark makes a grass nest on the ground. Generally the nests are very difficult to find, hidden between foliage.

The most interesting points above in my mind are the terrestrial nature of this bird (a bird that can fly, but spends most of its time on the ground--what an apt metaphor for women in prison!), and the importance of its song (since BG is so much about giving a voice to those whose perspectives are never heard). There also seems to be something in there about gendered roles (the male is the one who sings, is the one who can fly further and longer), but that might not be significant since it could be just a "bird" thing--I know nothing about birds in general, so I might be making something significant which isn't.

There's also a famous piece of orchestral music written by a British composer called "The Lark Ascending" which is described by Wikipedia thus:
It is intended to convey the lyrical and almost eternally English beauty of the scene in which a skylark rises into the heavens above some sunny down and attains such height that it becomes barely visible to those on the ground below.
So there definitely seems to be something quintessentially English about the lark in culture, about the beautiful things in England, nature, the countryside etc. Which makes it an ironic name for an urban prison, doesn't it?

Never thought about the meaning of "Larkhall". Thanks for posting that Abzug, I just thought of it as just a name, no meaning what-so-ever. So thanks for that.

Larkhall: good name to discuss! It's always sounded quite Victorian to me. It always seems to be associated with the bron stone building in my mind. It seems to suit the building. Apparently there's a place in Scotland called Larkhall. It has a history of textiles, and a haunted building: haunted by The Black Lady. A TV crew tried to film it:

http://www.larkhall.s-lanark.sch.uk/local_...lack_lady.shtml

In the 1960s a team from the "Tonight" programme visited Larkhall as they tried to perform the first televised exorcism. The cameras were frozen over in fine weather and after filming finished the director was killed in a road crash on his way to another location. He was found with a fence post impaled in his heart.

It's also the name of a park, lane and tavern around Stockell in South London - one of my old haunts so I associate the name with British buildings.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/london.gardens/...arkhall2006.htm

http://www.larkhallparkfriends.org.uk/history.html

Oh and Larkhall means Lark on the hill.

The decision to give the park its present name was taken by the GLC on 31st January 1967. Until then, it had been referred to as the Wandsworth Road Open Space.

Two suggestions were made by Lambeth, Courland Park and Southville Park, on the grounds that all of Courland Street, Southville and most of Courland Grove would disappear on completion. They were rejected on the grounds that these names had no strong historical connections. Lark Hall on the other hand, may have been a substantial country house which later became the Lark Hall tavern and tea gardens, where the present Larkhall tavern stands. It gave its name to Larkhall Lane. The name appears on John Rocques' map of 1745. And Larkhall Lane was to be the south eastern boundary of the Park.

And of course abzug, the whole "bird" theme ties in with the Cockney rhyming slang term "to do bird" or "doing bird", meaning, to do time, or doing time (the full version being "bird-lime"). As you mention, the image of Shell's caged canary is a good one, as the term "jailbird" derives from the notion of a caged bird. It is perhaps not a very comforting image though, if the only way that you can get out, is to be flushed down the bogs! :D

Heh! Of course that leads into the other meaning of Lark (with a bit of a stretch): i.e. to lark about = to be a bit plalyful in a kind of rebellious or jokey way; or to play tricks on people. Kind of suits the playful & camp side of BG

Wow, thanks for the insight about the rhyming slang--that's brilliant! And I like the idea of "lark" as a reflection of the sometimes campy nature of the show--I don't think its too much of a stretch at all.

Yes campgrrls, I seem to have some memory in my head of Fenner exhorting the women to "Stop larking about" too, I can't say where though, and I could be wrong! (or it could be the ghost of Christmas past!)

Another link to the image of a lark, comes in Nikki's reading of Romeo and Juliet, in the famous scene where having spent his wedding night with Juliet, Romeo prepares to leave at daybreak. Juliet, not wanting the moment to end, is unwilling to admit that daylight is approaching, and that Romeo needs to leave for his own safety, she therefore tries to persuade him to stay, with the lines:

It is not yet near day.
It was the nightingale, and not the lark,
That pierced the fearful hollow of thine ear,

Romeo eventually convinces her otherwise, and she responds:

It is, it is! Hie hence, be gone, away!
It is the lark that sings so out of tune,
Straining harsh discords and unpleasing sharps.
Some say the lark makes sweet division.
This doth not so, for she divideth us.

These lines are perhaps appropriate for our "Juliet and Juliet", as in their case it is also "the lark" - the prison, that divides them. The sound of the name Larkhall, would have been as unwelcome to Nikki no doubt, as the sound of the lark was to Juliet; as would have been the phonecall from Larkhall that Helen received, drawing them back to the ugly reality of the prison and Fenner's stabbing, after the few brief hours that they were able to spend together. That "Lark"call certainly did serve to divide the two of them!

Not only is this a wonderful insight/association, but you wrote it so beautifully! I just love this show--it's so RICH!

Ok, wow, I'm impressed. Thank you. Just right, very very nice. Burble. Etc.

The Lark Call. Brilliant. :clap

I'm ashamed of myself for not making that link to R&J.

Me too. But nobody's perfect. Or so I hear.

I've copied this over from another thread as I don't think they are mentioned here. Sorry if they are.

Well spotted, microsofty! That one went right over my head. Now I'm wondering if Josh was so called because of his good humour. I think "to josh" means to tease someone good humouredly.

Interestingly Jim means "he who supplants". I had to look supplants up as I had no idea what that meant! Definition given was "To usurp the place of, especially through intrigue or underhanded tactics". Hmmm ... how appropriate!

ETA - Also wondered if Parr was chosen for Seans surname as it means a small fish (young salmon) .... i.e. underlining just how insignificant he was!

Sorry double posting but I thought I'd better mention this one in case I forgot it yet again.

Monica means advisor which I thought was particularly apt as she was a financial advisor BL (Before Larkhall).

Very apt, since Monica was also some sort of advisor during her time in Larkhall.

For some reason the name Nikki always reminds me of "hicky", which might also be very apt: leaving your love mark on another persons body in some secret location that only the two of you know about.

:lol1 Very apt too! But coincidental rather than intentional, maybe?

I've had a thought about the name 'Ford' given By Nikki to the gatehouse when she escaped in 'Oh, What a Night'. Given all the Shakespeare references in Bad Girls, it occured to me it might also be a reference to the jealous husband in the 'Merry Wives of Windsor'.

Given Nikki's jealousy at the end of S2, it might well fit. I think Ford disguises himself (as did Nikki) and paid Falstaff(?) some money to supposedly help him. It ends with Ford asking for for his 20 pounds back and he sleeps with his wife. I'm fairly sure that it was 20 pounds that Nikki asked to borrow for a cab.

Oooh, good one! OK, now, who is going to write up a summary of Shakespearean allusions in Bad Girls? Any takers? We've got Romeo & Juliet, Macbeth, and now The Merry Wives of Windsor (which, admittedly, I've never read).

This post made me just pick up on how by using Ford, she was just using another form of Wade, which leads me to think they meant chose Wade, because of it being a ford in the river, all the more. I really don't know why I didn't make the Ford/Wade connection, much sooner with this scene. She's lucky no one was ever investigating her escape, she left a ridiculous amount of evidence behind. (Video tapes, Ford=Wade, bus ticket, anyone peeking out the window to see who the hell was making racket at Helen's).

For Di Barker, I see people have picked up on the barking, but no one bothered with Di. Di is short for Diana which leads us to Greek Mythology and hunting. Di is a sort of a huntress, but her hunting for love and stalking hunting always seems to get cut short, because she chooses the wrong prey.

Actually, I want to go further with Barker. Put in context with hunting, Barker, dogs are barkers, she's a hunting bitch, very apt.

Carnival Barkers, also spread lies to lure people into attractions and Di definitely spreads lies to try and lure in her prey.

Sure Diana means divine, but she's only divine like divinity (the candy), seems all pure, white and sweet, but really it is too sweet and will give one cavities. Maybe divine errors, apply, as well. Another Shakespeare reference, Divine Comedy of Errors? I don't really place much stock in the meaning of divine, being as relevant.

Also, I'd go for the pun, too. Rolling a die, seems to fit in with her lack of sanity and the nature of chance and thereby risk for people associating with her, since they never know which of her "faces" they're going to get.

Excellant dissections of the names on this thread, so far.

-edit in bold-

The last 3 posts really made me smile.

And, of course, the relentless, volatile, and unforgiving amazonian goddess Diana is most often depicted with her hounds.

Yes, I agree Washuai. Not very bright of Nikki at all to leave all that evidence!

I had loosely made the Wade = Ford connection previously .... in the sense that you might wade through shallow water to cross a river. But I hadn't realised the exact meaning of Wade until I read the start of this thread last week (i.e. Wade actually means a ford - I have re-checked it on the web as of two minutes ago). I suppose I ought to have reiterated that definition in my previous post.

Great ideas for the meaning of Di. It's a shame it wasn't an acroymn as there's probably a few more good definitions .... e.g.
DI = disruptive influence (law)
DI = damage inflicted (military)

I didn't know Diana was goddess of the hunt so I just looked it up on Wikipedia after reading your post, Washuai
ETA - Wikipedia says "Diana is ancient Roman Goddess of the moon, the hunt, and chastity"

..... at the end of the article it also says
"There are also references to her in common literature. In Shakespeare's play, Romeo and Juliet, many references are made to Diana. Rosaline, a beautiful woman who has sworn to chastity, is said to have "Dian's wit". Later on in the play, Romeo says, "It is the East, and Juliet is the sun. Arise fair sun, and kill the envious moon." He is saying that Juliet is better than Diana and Rosaline for not swearing chastity" :)

Though I don't think Di chose chastity through choice!!!

ETA -

Good point, Jeanna. Of course the gods used hunting dogs. Makes the choice of both names particularly apt.

Definitely coincidental, yes!

I find these Shakespearian references fascinating, although, admittedly, I've only ever read Macbeth! The Shakespearian themes goes to show the enourmous amounts of meticulous research and care that went into the script, leaving us with a forum for in-depth analysis! I've often wondered what the BG creators would think if they were to stumble accross our musings. Would it be "yeah! some people picked up on what we meant to imply!" or "heck, why didn't we think of that?". In any event, BG is and forever will be, pure genius.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that sentiment, microsofty. It would certainly be interesting to get the writers opinions on what we've discussed so far! I'm beginning to wonder just how much there is that we haven't picked up on yet, particularly with regards to Shakespeare. Don't worry about only having read Macbeth. I've read (or seen) maybe about two-thirds of them but I've got to confess I can only really remember bits and pieces of each and often really trivial things rather than the main stuff. At the moment I can't help thinking that Shell reminds me of Ophelia from Hamlet but not just in terms of the madness. It might come to me or there may be nothing in it ...

took me a while to get here, but nice thread:)

Myself, I've always loved the character of the Julies. They act as a unit, talk as a unit, mirror each other, complete each other sentences, they are one. Always thought of them as Skakespearean, often times playing the fool, sometimes an abbreivated Greek Chorus (to each other), and then often the wise clown. The two together as one character is really a great bit of writing in conception and execution.

Oh absolutely, solitasolano. Brilliant writing with these characters (or character as you pointed out). They add so much to the story without you even realising it. I liked your 'Greek Chorus' image!

Julie Johnston's real name is Sonia Dawson. Not quite sure why she changed her name but interestingly she also changed her Christian name to match that of Julie Saunders. Hence the two Julies, which adds a comic element and reinforces your idea of a single character with a single name.

I've only had one idea so far about their names .... though maybe I'm beginning to read far too much into things ...

Taking the line "Juliet and Juliet would be more my cup of tea" and thinking of less tea as removing the letter 't' gives us Julie(t) and Julie(t) or more simply the two Julies. ;)

And as solitasolano pointed out they are The Greek Chorus from Romeo & Juliet: "The Chorus is a single character who, as developed in Greek drama, functions as a narrator offering commentary on the play’s plot and themes"

OMG you're absolutely right! If it was any closer it would have bit me.
Juliet and Juliet IS so obvious. Those BG creators/writers are too much.

Okay. Still on the subject of the two Julies. I had some thoughts on their surnames.

Johnson (without a 't') would have been the more common surname, meaning 'son of John'. Johnston is peculiarly Scottish and means 'John's town'. Neither seems to have any relevance to Bad Girls but since I'd looked them up, I thought I'd tell you anyway!

However, the choice of spelling must be deliberate and correspond to something else (e.g. placename, football team, Shakespeare character, famous person etc). Being fed up with Shakespeare, I thought I'd go for famous person. The only person I could think of was Jennifer Johnston, the Irish author. I'm not that familiar with her work so I looked her up. Lo and behold, in 1980, she wrote a play entitled "The Nightingale and Not the Lark" .... and yes that takes us back to .... Shakespeare ..... and the balcony scene in Romeo and Juliet! The phrase itself is also particularly apt to describe Julie J's character as she was a prostitute. She was definitely a 'night bird' rather than a 'day bird'.

Saunders comes from Alexander, meaning 'defender of men". This time I thought I'd go straight for the Romeo and Juliet connection. My initial thought was that it was a reference to another Jennifer, Jennifer Saunders. She too was part of a comedy duo and performed various skits on Shakespeare, which possibly included Romeo and Juliet.

I think a better connection is the lesbian actress, Charlotte Saunders Cushman. She performed a number of female and male Shakesperian roles in the 1840's. It wasn't rare for a female to perform a male role but it wasn't commonplace either. Her best known role was playing Romeo opposite her sister. I'm guessing that this was the first performance of 'Juliet and Juliet'! Other roles included Nancy Sykes, the prostitute in "Oliver Twist" and noteworthy because it wasn't the type of role that established actresses played. This possibly connects to Julie S who was also a prostitute. I'm guessing that Saunders rather than Cushman was chosen as her sister had the same surname and Saunders is a far more common surname anyway.

Fascinating stuff, Cassandra! Won't you do a bit of research on the PBG members' names? I bet you could find a Shakespeare connection there as well...!

("Is this a challenge?", I hear you ask. Well, maybe...)

:lol1 Oh, I don't think so!!! It would be a bit like ..... like ..... trying to read the small print on an ID badge!

Anyway, you obviously didn't read the small print on your copy of Macbeth. The McKenzie clan boycotted the whole event so there won't be any references.

There was small print in Macbeth?!

I read up a bit on the MacKenzie clan - the ones from Scotland, yeah? One of their slogans meant "protect the king", which was basically Al's job - only in this case she had to protect the "queen" rather than the king.

I like that! Haven't got very far with the PBG. You seem to be doing a better job than me anyway!

McKenzie itself seems to mean 'comely' which is the complete opposite of Al's character! Unless that's the point?
"comely: 1. Pleasing and wholesome in appearance; attractive. 2. Suitable; seemly: comely behavior"

No Shakespeare connections (unless you count the brothers McKenzie in 'Strange Brew' which was loosely based on Hamlet - haven't seen it myself though)!

As for Al. Short for Alison, a typical Scottish name which means 'noble'. Again the complete opposite of Al's character! Various definitions also say "A Scottish form of Louise" which itself means 'renowned fighter'. Maybe a little more apt there.

ETA - As for Maxi Purvis. Purvis means 'purveyor' which is someone who supplies provisions (especially food). Apt for someone who steals. Maxi, short for Maxine, means 'greatest'. So essentially a master thief.

Tina means 'river'. Either she cries a lot or is easily led (i.e. gets swept along by Maxi)? Or maybe not.