Title: Scenes In Helen's Apartment
Description: abzug [Mar 1, 2006]
Description: abzug [Mar 1, 2006]
ekny - June 2, 2006 03:28 AM (GMT)
abzug Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:33 pm
Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Question for the brainiest, most knowledgeable Bad Girls afficianados on the Internet:
Are there any scenes which take place in Helen's apartment and which don't involve one of her romantic interests (ie Sean, Dominic, Nikki)? The only possibility I can think of is the sequence where she is getting ready for work, but I am not even sure that counts, given that it ends with Sean proposing to her. But other than that, I can't think of a time when she is alone in the apartment....
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Obsessed with Helen Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:40 pm
abzug wrote:
Question for the brainiest, most knowledgeable Bad Girls afficianados on the Internet:
Are there any scenes which take place in Helen's apartment and which don't involve one of her romantic interests (ie Sean, Dominic, Nikki)? The only possibility I can think of is the sequence where she is getting ready for work, but I am not even sure that counts, given that it ends with Sean proposing to her. But other than that, I can't think of a time when she is alone in the apartment....
How about when she finishes her work out and has that damn hot sports bra on and falls on the couch. Of course Sean walks in shortly after and tells her to take a shower and get ready to go out, but I think she must have been in the flat by herself initially.
She was alone in her flat the night Dominic came to her door, but again short scene.
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Late Starter Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:49 pm
she was on her own when nikki phoned & said she wasnt gonna give up, helen then replayed the answer machine message
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abzug Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:54 pm
I did think of both of those, but they don't really seem to qualify, since in the first case Sean shows up a few moments into the scene, and in the second one, Nikki is there (or, her voice is), so the whole scene is about Helen and Nikki.
I guess what I am looking for is a scene in Helen's apartment which isn't in any way related to her love life. And I can't think of one.
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COOLUK1 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:11 pm
...in that case then, no, I can't recall a time when Helen was totally alone...but I haven't watched BG for ages.
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Evangelist Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:18 pm
I suppose the only one I can think of is the opening of S1E9 where we see Helen standing in her open window wearing her robe, then the vodka bottle going into the trash, and Helen looking rather worse for the wear dropping the fizzy paracetamol tablets into a glass of water. We don't hear it...but I'm pretty sure she says (to herself) "f*cking hell" before Sean pops around the corner.
I think this is the longest stretch we see of Helen in her house before someone else appears. But as I've only seen S1-3 once in it's entirety (so far ), feel free to say otherwise.
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COOLUK1 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:36 pm
So far as I can recall even when we see Helen on her own, Sean is lurking somewhere or Dom turns up.
The one time we see her physically on her own..she's listening to Nikki on the answer phone...
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wordsmith Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:59 pm
i dont know if this counts, but right before dominic pops in for his
surprise visit, there is a brief scene where we see Helen leaning over a
table presumably doing some paper work.
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notsuchabadgirl Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:19 pm
there are only ever very fleeting glimpses of helen alone in the flat,always used as a prelude to somebody else turning up
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ekny Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:32 pm
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
abzug wrote:
Are there any scenes which take place in Helen's apartment and which don't involve one of her romantic interests (ie Sean, Dominic, Nikki)?
What are you looking for, exactly?
Also: am not sure absence of Helen-alone scene would necess mean anything, i.e., there's very little they can show, dramatically that way. You know:
[INT. Helen's apartment]
HELEN writes at desk.
Rain streaks down windows.
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:20 am
I wasn't actually looking for Helen alone, per se. I was looking for a scene in her apartment which wasn't about her romantic life. And as far as I can tell, there aren't any.
This has to do with an analysis or theory I am working through which looks at different locations and the conflicts which are explored in those locations.
For instance, there are a few scenes which take place on a golf course. Traditionally/culturally a male domain. No women ever participate in golf course scenes. They are always moments of Fenner trying to gain more power and control (badmouthing Karen to Stubberfield, taking bribes from Yvonne and Charlie). And although women are never seen on the golf course, it is where their influence and power is felt (Karen having gotten Stubberfield on her side, Yvonne making sure that she has something to hold over Fenner).
And then we have Helen's apartment, clearly the most contested space on the show. From early on we know its Helen’s apartment which Sean has invaded (he has to call her to locate items in the kitchen etc). And then when she dumps Sean, his unspoken action is a return of her keys, relinquishing his rights to her domain. But then in season 2, who Helen allows into her apartment becomes very significant. Dominic shows up and Helen allows him in, which Nikki identifies as a huge betrayal, symbolic of Helen allowing Dominic into her life, and into herself (sexual metaphor there). So its logical that the next person to try to gain entry would be Nikki, and significant that Helen won’t let her in. Nikki has to fight to gain entry, just as she had to fight to get Helen to recognize the attraction in the first place. Note most importantly, we never ever see a scene of Thomas in Helen’s apartment. They found an entirely new set to be Thomas’s apartment, rather than giving him access to Helen's inner sanctum.
Anyway, these are some of my random thoughts, and I needed to make sure that Helen's apartment was never used for anything other than representing Helen's romantic conflicts. And it seems like its not, from what any of us can remember.
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Jeanna Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:39 am
Wow.
This line of reasoning fascinates me utterly. Thank you for undertaking it.
This reminds me of the kind of in depth scene work you'd do for a novel or as an actor or director. If you really did your home work, that is. :)
Keep doing it. I love it.
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GeauxGurl Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:34 am
abzug
you R just sooo deep ~~~ I think I luv U !!!
pleez keep giving us things to ponder ~~~
(BTW, can't think of any other instance of Helen alone in her apt.)
GG
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:51 pm
Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Those are very interesting points that you raise there Abzug and I think the one about Thomas ties in nicely with his comment to Helen later on, that he doesn't feel that he ever gets through to her. Good point too about her not initially letting Nikki in. You've made me think about this and I wonder if it is taking the point a bit too far to make the observation that it is only the men that we actually see her letting out of her apartment/flat. We see her waiting to lock up prior to Sean giving the gardening talk at the prison, she is (maybe significantly) impatient to get him out of there and he is (maybe significantly) taking his time and proving difficult to move. Later we see her seeing Dominic out of the door, after her revelation to him about Nikki, he also seems to take his time to leave and she has to make small talk about whether or not he came on his bike. But we never actually see her letting Nikki out of her flat. We see them inside making plans to leave and the next time we see them they are already in Helen's car and on route. So it is as though symbolically Nikki never actually leaves Helen's "inner sanctum", to coin Abzug's phrase. But perhaps I am reading too much into it now!
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:16 pm
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
So it is as though symbolically Nikki never actually leaves Helen's "inner sanctum", to coin Abzug's phrase. But perhaps I am reading too much into it now!
Never! This is a great observation, and I completely agree that its there and is significant.
Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Question for the brainiest, most knowledgeable Bad Girls afficianados on the Internet:
Are there any scenes which take place in Helen's apartment and which don't involve one of her romantic interests (ie Sean, Dominic, Nikki)? The only possibility I can think of is the sequence where she is getting ready for work, but I am not even sure that counts, given that it ends with Sean proposing to her. But other than that, I can't think of a time when she is alone in the apartment....
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Obsessed with Helen Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:40 pm
abzug wrote:
Question for the brainiest, most knowledgeable Bad Girls afficianados on the Internet:
Are there any scenes which take place in Helen's apartment and which don't involve one of her romantic interests (ie Sean, Dominic, Nikki)? The only possibility I can think of is the sequence where she is getting ready for work, but I am not even sure that counts, given that it ends with Sean proposing to her. But other than that, I can't think of a time when she is alone in the apartment....
How about when she finishes her work out and has that damn hot sports bra on and falls on the couch. Of course Sean walks in shortly after and tells her to take a shower and get ready to go out, but I think she must have been in the flat by herself initially.
She was alone in her flat the night Dominic came to her door, but again short scene.
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Late Starter Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:49 pm
she was on her own when nikki phoned & said she wasnt gonna give up, helen then replayed the answer machine message
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abzug Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:54 pm
I did think of both of those, but they don't really seem to qualify, since in the first case Sean shows up a few moments into the scene, and in the second one, Nikki is there (or, her voice is), so the whole scene is about Helen and Nikki.
I guess what I am looking for is a scene in Helen's apartment which isn't in any way related to her love life. And I can't think of one.
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COOLUK1 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:11 pm
...in that case then, no, I can't recall a time when Helen was totally alone...but I haven't watched BG for ages.
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Evangelist Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:18 pm
I suppose the only one I can think of is the opening of S1E9 where we see Helen standing in her open window wearing her robe, then the vodka bottle going into the trash, and Helen looking rather worse for the wear dropping the fizzy paracetamol tablets into a glass of water. We don't hear it...but I'm pretty sure she says (to herself) "f*cking hell" before Sean pops around the corner.
I think this is the longest stretch we see of Helen in her house before someone else appears. But as I've only seen S1-3 once in it's entirety (so far ), feel free to say otherwise.
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COOLUK1 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:36 pm
So far as I can recall even when we see Helen on her own, Sean is lurking somewhere or Dom turns up.
The one time we see her physically on her own..she's listening to Nikki on the answer phone...
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wordsmith Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:59 pm
i dont know if this counts, but right before dominic pops in for his
surprise visit, there is a brief scene where we see Helen leaning over a
table presumably doing some paper work.
_________________
notsuchabadgirl Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:19 pm
there are only ever very fleeting glimpses of helen alone in the flat,always used as a prelude to somebody else turning up
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ekny Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:32 pm
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
abzug wrote:
Are there any scenes which take place in Helen's apartment and which don't involve one of her romantic interests (ie Sean, Dominic, Nikki)?
What are you looking for, exactly?
Also: am not sure absence of Helen-alone scene would necess mean anything, i.e., there's very little they can show, dramatically that way. You know:
[INT. Helen's apartment]
HELEN writes at desk.
Rain streaks down windows.
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:20 am
I wasn't actually looking for Helen alone, per se. I was looking for a scene in her apartment which wasn't about her romantic life. And as far as I can tell, there aren't any.
This has to do with an analysis or theory I am working through which looks at different locations and the conflicts which are explored in those locations.
For instance, there are a few scenes which take place on a golf course. Traditionally/culturally a male domain. No women ever participate in golf course scenes. They are always moments of Fenner trying to gain more power and control (badmouthing Karen to Stubberfield, taking bribes from Yvonne and Charlie). And although women are never seen on the golf course, it is where their influence and power is felt (Karen having gotten Stubberfield on her side, Yvonne making sure that she has something to hold over Fenner).
And then we have Helen's apartment, clearly the most contested space on the show. From early on we know its Helen’s apartment which Sean has invaded (he has to call her to locate items in the kitchen etc). And then when she dumps Sean, his unspoken action is a return of her keys, relinquishing his rights to her domain. But then in season 2, who Helen allows into her apartment becomes very significant. Dominic shows up and Helen allows him in, which Nikki identifies as a huge betrayal, symbolic of Helen allowing Dominic into her life, and into herself (sexual metaphor there). So its logical that the next person to try to gain entry would be Nikki, and significant that Helen won’t let her in. Nikki has to fight to gain entry, just as she had to fight to get Helen to recognize the attraction in the first place. Note most importantly, we never ever see a scene of Thomas in Helen’s apartment. They found an entirely new set to be Thomas’s apartment, rather than giving him access to Helen's inner sanctum.
Anyway, these are some of my random thoughts, and I needed to make sure that Helen's apartment was never used for anything other than representing Helen's romantic conflicts. And it seems like its not, from what any of us can remember.
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Jeanna Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:39 am
Wow.
This line of reasoning fascinates me utterly. Thank you for undertaking it.
This reminds me of the kind of in depth scene work you'd do for a novel or as an actor or director. If you really did your home work, that is. :)
Keep doing it. I love it.
_________________
GeauxGurl Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:34 am
abzug
you R just sooo deep ~~~ I think I luv U !!!
pleez keep giving us things to ponder ~~~
(BTW, can't think of any other instance of Helen alone in her apt.)
GG
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:51 pm
Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Those are very interesting points that you raise there Abzug and I think the one about Thomas ties in nicely with his comment to Helen later on, that he doesn't feel that he ever gets through to her. Good point too about her not initially letting Nikki in. You've made me think about this and I wonder if it is taking the point a bit too far to make the observation that it is only the men that we actually see her letting out of her apartment/flat. We see her waiting to lock up prior to Sean giving the gardening talk at the prison, she is (maybe significantly) impatient to get him out of there and he is (maybe significantly) taking his time and proving difficult to move. Later we see her seeing Dominic out of the door, after her revelation to him about Nikki, he also seems to take his time to leave and she has to make small talk about whether or not he came on his bike. But we never actually see her letting Nikki out of her flat. We see them inside making plans to leave and the next time we see them they are already in Helen's car and on route. So it is as though symbolically Nikki never actually leaves Helen's "inner sanctum", to coin Abzug's phrase. But perhaps I am reading too much into it now!
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:16 pm
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
So it is as though symbolically Nikki never actually leaves Helen's "inner sanctum", to coin Abzug's phrase. But perhaps I am reading too much into it now!
Never! This is a great observation, and I completely agree that its there and is significant.
ekny - June 2, 2006 03:32 AM (GMT)
ekny Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:39 pm
Re: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Thx for this thread, I found the ideas abt Helen's apt very interesting, esp MadBad's observation re Nikki never really 'leaving' H's space, &--was it Bella's? sorry, headache making eyeballs hurt--the obs abt Thomas never entering her space to begin with--both clicked, for me. That's what I realize I'm looking for, that click; a metaphor that works, an observation tied to specific visuals we've all seen but then see fresh or from a new possible angle.
I need more persuasion that Helen's personal space *is* 'contested'. There's no reason in my head against it: I just want to hear more, you know?
There are certainly a number of scenes that aren't *solely* about her romantic life, even if they're with other people; more than half, I think--as others have been pointed out--start w/Helen alone. Given so much of the show occurs w/in 1 space, it is important to look at what other spaces are available to us & what they might mean. But it may be hard to do in one single, overarching way, as opposed to different spaces expressing different dynamics depending on the people involved. Monica only ever has 1 son & 1 funeral, so it's hard for me to see what can be done with that, is what I mean. I love how dense this show is.
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:17 pm
Re: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
ekny wrote:
But it may be hard to do in one single, overarching way, as opposed to different spaces expressing different dynamics depending on the people involved. Monica only ever has 1 son & 1 funeral, so it's hard for me to see what can be done with that, is what I mean.
Oh, I completely agree--I don't think there necessarily is any overarching message to say about contested space, just mini-messages to find in each space which we examine. And of course, there are certain spaces which are fruitful, and others which just aren't used enough to be significant (like the Monica funeral example you mention, or Julie's sojourn on the outside when she stays with Monica).
The potting shed is another which I like a lot, because its such a center of prisoner self-determination and resistance. Not just the obvious examples like the boob grab or Chateau Larkhall, but also when Denny sets up her escape with her mother etc. Whenever the officers try to "invade" this space, they are completely thwarted (Fenner searching for the booze, Sylvia catching Julie and Nikki having a quick feel, even Helen trying to confront Nikki about her feelings).
Quote:
I need more persuasion that Helen's personal space *is* 'contested'. There's no reason in my head against it: I just want to hear more, you know?
Hmm. I feel like if I start listing examples I will just be rehashing what I said above, which won't be very helpful if what I said above wasn't persuasive. But I guess what got me thinking about it was the idea of the golf course as a public male space, and the idea of the home as a private female space. And who's home do we see most of all? Helen's. So what kinds of things go on in this private female space? Romantic entanglements. So its not so much that her personal space is contested as it is that her romantic life is contested (of which her personal space is the physical manifestation). Will she pursue a romantic life with a man or a woman? Will it be with a prison officer or a con? She has all the options open to her, all these people fighting to penetrate her aloof exterior.
And in another post when I have a few minutes, there is also the issue of the struggle between her personal/romantic life and her professional life. She attempts to keep these two separate, but each keeps invading the other, emotionally and literally. More on that later, must do work.
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ekny Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:42 pm
Re: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
abzug wrote:
Oh, I completely agree--I don't think there necessarily is any overarching message to say about contested space, just mini-messages to find in each space which we examine.
Da, same page.
I liked your potting shed subthread (?!) & wondered abt 1 thing: Nikki & Caroline also gt the potting shed. Any thots on that?
Quote:
I need more persuasion that Helen's personal space *is* 'contested'. There's no reason in my head against it: I just want to hear more, you know?
abzug wrote:
Hmm. I feel like if I start listing examples I will just be rehashing what I said above, which won't be very helpful if what I said above wasn't persuasive.
Agreed, totally: I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, as (I'd hope) you know, but rather saying cool, let me in on it when your thoughts have travelled further down this road.
abzug wrote:
So its not so much that her personal space is contested as it is that her romantic life is contested (of which her personal space is the physical manifestation).
That's what I was looking for! Thanks much, really.
abzug wrote:
More on that later, must do work.
I got out totally wrong side of bed today, it's snowing so phoocking hard I'll have to shovel, 2, maybe 3x later, & I'm so wasted I think I'm just gonna go take a nap & try again another lifetime. Corporate taxes so suck major weenie.
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:01 pm
Re: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
ekny wrote:
I liked your potting shed subthread (?!) & wondered abt 1 thing: Nikki & Caroline also gt the potting shed. Any thots on that?
I did think of including that in my post above, as an example of Nikki's resistance against Helen "The System" Stewart. She doesn't know Helen's watching, but even pursuing any sort of friendship/romance with Caroline is a rebellion against her relationship with Helen, and the restrictions that relationship has continually imposed (or tried to impose) on her. Whether she and Caroline make out in the shed doesn't matter--the fact that they can go there and interact privately away from Helen's prying eyes is enough to make it an act of resistance.
Quote:
Agreed, totally: I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, as (I'd hope) you know
Oh, I knew I wasn't being put on the spot, I was just covering my ass in advance for when you pointed out how little my additional explanation revealed.
Quote:
I got out totally wrong side of bed today, it's snowing so phoocking hard I'll have to shovel, 2, maybe 3x later, & I'm so wasted I think I'm just gonna go take a nap & try again another lifetime. Corporate taxes so suck major weenie.
Blech! We got a dusting down here, but I am sure that's nothing compared to what you get up by you. But make sure you don't spend all your outside time shoveling--you have to play in the snow at least a little! (See, I am an optimist!)
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abzug Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:01 pm
Another location which is interesting to think about is the courtroom, both interior and exterior. There are three main scenes which take place outside the courthouse (Monica's release speech, the hit on Charlie, and Nikki's release speech), and two main scenes which take place inside the courtroom (Charlie's trial, Nikki's trial). Plus, there are many implied events which take place in the courtroom which we never get to see (such as Nikki's initial trial, for instance).
Courtroom: While this space has the potential for justice (Nikki's appeal trial), much more often its a location of injustice (Nikki's initial trial, Monica's initial trial, Charlie's drug trial etc). There's not much to say about it, other than that it represents the established power structure at its most extreme--this is where people's law-breaking behavior is discplined and punished. Its the very essence of authoritarian social control.
Courthouse Exterior: This is where a lot more interesting things can happen. Its definitely a location of protest/resistance, where wrongs can be rectified (Monica's humanization of her fellow prisoners, Nikki's condemnation of Fenner's sexually predatory behavior, Lauren's hit on Charlie). It seems to be the one place where the thoughts and feelings of the powerless can be expressed fully and openly, and those thoughts and feelings are heard. Not just by the people present, but broadcast to tv viewers throughout London. And unlike the male courtroom (I say male courtroom b/c the judges are always male, and they hold the power, and when a powerful woman like Yvonne tries to influence the outcome, she is completely thwarted), only women get to speak outside the courtoom, either through words (Monica and Nikki) or actions (Lauren).
Its very interesting to think about, because the exterior is a public space, and traditionally women haven't had much influence outside in a public space (vs inside the home). But in the case of Bad Girls, to tie this into the golf course analysis, the more open the space (the golf course, the courthouse exterior, outside Chix), the more women can express themselves and assert control. Contrast this to the courtoom itself, Larkhall prison etc, which are very insular places, where only certain people are allowed in, and in those locations, women have a much more difficult time maintaining power and being in control. Its an ongoing struggle for them.
Thanks for listening as I pontificate.
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ekny Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:20 pm
abzug wrote:
Courtroom: [...]
Courthouse Exterior: [...]
Thanks for listening as I pontificate.
Tosh! It's thinking aloud. Pontificate means you're apologizing for being pompous really--cut that out, mate. (I'd jump in w/more but betw taxes & other stuff I've been at am afraid me brain will start venting out me ears at this rate--sorry, hope to be more on top of it soon.)
Have you considered making a rough wall-chart or just opening up a file with a list of running locations--iow not prestructuring it in any way but just kinda free-associating, initially, & seeing where that takes you? (For all I know you've already thunk it, in which case beg pardon miss, I'll go back to me cell now.)
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:20 pm
Question: Scenes in Helen's apartment
Would that be "feminist and queer, non-linear" wall chart then ekny?
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ekny Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:51 pm
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Would that be "feminist and queer, non-linear" wall chart then ekny? :-D
Heh heh. Check with Abzug, I fink she's self-selected for Wall Chart Queen. Hm. Maybe someone should dub themselves Royal Architect-in-Residence to HM's Château Boghouse, Larkhall Division, & draw us up some blueprints....
You realize it won't be long til we're plaguing the people who've visited the hotel for square-footage, don't you? We're all really quite far gone.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:54 am
Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Yes, I was just wondering about that. I hope for their 150 quid they don't get a cell-sized room with an open bog and a "twatting twat" window!
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abzug Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:58 pm
ekny wrote:
Have you considered making a rough wall-chart or just opening up a file with a list of running locations--iow not prestructuring it in any way but just kinda free-associating, initially, & seeing where that takes you? (For all I know you've already thunk it, in which case beg pardon miss, I'll go back to me cell now.)
I actually have been doing this, but its less of a chart and more of a list. Started it back a few days before I started this thread. I was able to think up the following locations which seemed of interest:
G Wing Interior
The Cells
Prison Exterior
The Potting Shed (ok, its part of the prison exterior, but it seems to have its own meaning, dontcha think?)
Helen's Home
Fenner's Home
Courtroom Interior
Courthouse Exterior
Golf Course
The Brothels
That's all I was really able to come up with. I've jotted down thoughts on each, most of which I've posted somewhere in this thread. Oh, except my take on the cells:
They are the spaces that the prisoners are closest to and most intimately entwined with, and they also represent their total lack of power and control. They are the womens’ homes (as much as they have any) and yet they have no real control over them. They are subject to search on a whim, they are moved from cell to cell for various real (and perceived) offenses, they can be invaded and destroyed by other inmates (Shell confronting Nikki when she first moves to enhanced, the cell fire in season 3 etc). If women’s domain is the home, then these prisoners really are left with nothing, no space they control. As Nikki says to Sean in season 1, “I haven’t got a home” and she’s right. The voyeurism protest in S2E6 may be one of the few times the women try to really control their own cells, blocking the peepholes and putting the male officers in compromising positions through their “performed” state of undress when the cell doors are opened. But its not really a serious or effective protest, because of the futility of the prisoners having any space they really control.
But I haven't been able to make much headway about the general prison spaces (interior, exterior) because at this point those feel a little too complex to boil down into a paragraph. So I'm still thinking about them. All illustrate different power struggles which are going on (between men and women, between the prisoners and the officers etc), but I'm not sure where that takes us.
I also haven't really wanted to take on the brothels or Fenner's home, because both would require me to spend time contemplating Fenner, and I really don't want to put myself through something so unpleasant.
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COOLUK1 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:13 pm
Hi
Interesting points made as ever..
Just a thought~ from what I've seen on TV, US prisons have open bars rather that a solid wall with a door in it..with a peep hole.
Open bars surely raise far more privacy, personal space and voyeurism issues than a mere peep hole.
If a US version of BG is being made set in a US prison it will mean major rejigging of many scenes ..assuming that they stick to existing plots and storylines ...or maybe a rewrite is planned ???
COOL
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ekny Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:08 pm
abzug wrote:
But I haven't been able to make much headway about the general prison spaces (interior, exterior) because at this point those feel a little too complex to boil down into a paragraph. So I'm still thinking about them. All illustrate different power struggles which are going on (between men and women, between the prisoners and the officers etc), but I'm not sure where that takes us.
I also haven't really wanted to take on the brothels or Fenner's home, because both would require me to spend time contemplating Fenner, and I really don't want to put myself through something so unpleasant. :-)
Excellent points abt the cells, and agree abt the overall. Listen, the Fenner thing is disturbing enough: a woman who's a new fan stopped by, she's Jewish, and asked me about what I made of this: she saw a mezzuzah in Fenner's house. She emailed me about it again today: "It's in series 2, episode 3, right after the police leave his house. His wife is talking to him and on the doorjamb next to her is a plain white boxy mezuzah."
The only religious references in the show to characters and their beliefs are Christian, in S1-3, with Femi being the sole exception I can think of. I rewatched the scene & saw the hand hanging up on the wall, but that's generic middle-Eastern, not necess Jewish. My conclusion is that they were borrowing someone's home & the people who dressed the set left it up because to take it down would be disrespectful, in fact, I think, a sin (although Jews don't believe in original sin). I can't believe Shed ever intended Fenner to be Jewish, it would be such a major f*ck-up I really don't want to even contemplate it.
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abzug Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:48 pm
You know, I did notice the hand of god hanging in Fenner's apartment, and I kind of blocked it out, because I didn't like my train of thougt on that one bit. I don't know if that's truly generic middle eastern--I think of that as being specifically middle eastern Jewish. And now that you are mentioning the mezuzah, I think its impossible to ignore: Fenner's a Jew.
Your theory about the borrowing of the flat doesn't explain it away because
1. They could have taken down the hand of god. Its awfully prominent in that phone call scene, and it didn't have to be there.
2. It actually IS allowed to remove a mezuzah from a home. The only case in which you can't is if the people moving into the home next are also Jewish.
Ugh, why oh why did this have to be? I just hate this idea!
Unless, can anyone think of a specific reference to Fenner going to church or something like that? I seem to recall Helen wearing a cross at some point, but I may have been imagining it....
ETA: OK, just debriefed with my gf, and she agrees with you, ekny, just a set direction oversight. Which I guess makes sense, given that I wouldn't expect anyone working on the show was Jewish and would recognize the symbolic meaning of the mezuzah or the hand of god. But that said, then what does that mean about the analysis of the Rodin painting in Helen's apartment?!
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abzug Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:06 pm
COOLUK1 wrote:
Just a thought~ from what I've seen on TV, US prisons have open bars rather that a solid wall with a door in it..with a peep hole.
Well, US prisons on tv have open bars, who knows about US prisons in real life. But its true, I'd be somewhat suprised to see a prison cell on a US tv show with a door. Given how they've done adaptations of other UK shows here (I'm thinking of Queer as Folk and The Office, since those are the two which have been the most successful and ran the longest) I think they only followed the original for an episode or two (for QAF it might have been the first season?) and then went off on their own. Which worries me to no end, of course, when it comes to adapting BG. Our beloved Helen & Nikki romance might be out the window, or they might be deprived of their happy ending.
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ekny Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:34 pm
abzug wrote:
2. It actually IS allowed to remove a mezuzah from a home. The only case in which you can't is if the people moving into the home next are also Jewish.
Am aware of that but it wouldn't have been the case here.
abzug wrote:
Ugh, why oh why did this have to be? I just hate this idea!
I loathe it, and brought it up specifically to dismiss it: anything else would be completely unacceptable.
abzug wrote:
ETA: OK, just debriefed with my gf, and she agrees with you, ekny, just a set direction oversight. Which I guess makes sense, given that I wouldn't expect anyone working on the show was Jewish and would recognize the symbolic meaning of the mezuzah or the hand of god.
Good, relief. I felt guilty as sh*te even bringing it up, it was just too distasteful.
abzug wrote:
But that said, then what does that mean about the analysis of the Rodin painting in Helen's apartment?!
It means at best it's highly speculative, as we've discussed. And heck, I'm still not convinced it's a Rodin. Copyright & reproduction issues. I think a lot of the background art 'looks like' real/famous/recognizable stuff, but may not be, deliberately. Which definitely bites.
Re: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Thx for this thread, I found the ideas abt Helen's apt very interesting, esp MadBad's observation re Nikki never really 'leaving' H's space, &--was it Bella's? sorry, headache making eyeballs hurt--the obs abt Thomas never entering her space to begin with--both clicked, for me. That's what I realize I'm looking for, that click; a metaphor that works, an observation tied to specific visuals we've all seen but then see fresh or from a new possible angle.
I need more persuasion that Helen's personal space *is* 'contested'. There's no reason in my head against it: I just want to hear more, you know?
There are certainly a number of scenes that aren't *solely* about her romantic life, even if they're with other people; more than half, I think--as others have been pointed out--start w/Helen alone. Given so much of the show occurs w/in 1 space, it is important to look at what other spaces are available to us & what they might mean. But it may be hard to do in one single, overarching way, as opposed to different spaces expressing different dynamics depending on the people involved. Monica only ever has 1 son & 1 funeral, so it's hard for me to see what can be done with that, is what I mean. I love how dense this show is.
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:17 pm
Re: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
ekny wrote:
But it may be hard to do in one single, overarching way, as opposed to different spaces expressing different dynamics depending on the people involved. Monica only ever has 1 son & 1 funeral, so it's hard for me to see what can be done with that, is what I mean.
Oh, I completely agree--I don't think there necessarily is any overarching message to say about contested space, just mini-messages to find in each space which we examine. And of course, there are certain spaces which are fruitful, and others which just aren't used enough to be significant (like the Monica funeral example you mention, or Julie's sojourn on the outside when she stays with Monica).
The potting shed is another which I like a lot, because its such a center of prisoner self-determination and resistance. Not just the obvious examples like the boob grab or Chateau Larkhall, but also when Denny sets up her escape with her mother etc. Whenever the officers try to "invade" this space, they are completely thwarted (Fenner searching for the booze, Sylvia catching Julie and Nikki having a quick feel, even Helen trying to confront Nikki about her feelings).
Quote:
I need more persuasion that Helen's personal space *is* 'contested'. There's no reason in my head against it: I just want to hear more, you know?
Hmm. I feel like if I start listing examples I will just be rehashing what I said above, which won't be very helpful if what I said above wasn't persuasive. But I guess what got me thinking about it was the idea of the golf course as a public male space, and the idea of the home as a private female space. And who's home do we see most of all? Helen's. So what kinds of things go on in this private female space? Romantic entanglements. So its not so much that her personal space is contested as it is that her romantic life is contested (of which her personal space is the physical manifestation). Will she pursue a romantic life with a man or a woman? Will it be with a prison officer or a con? She has all the options open to her, all these people fighting to penetrate her aloof exterior.
And in another post when I have a few minutes, there is also the issue of the struggle between her personal/romantic life and her professional life. She attempts to keep these two separate, but each keeps invading the other, emotionally and literally. More on that later, must do work.
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ekny Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:42 pm
Re: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
abzug wrote:
Oh, I completely agree--I don't think there necessarily is any overarching message to say about contested space, just mini-messages to find in each space which we examine.
Da, same page.
I liked your potting shed subthread (?!) & wondered abt 1 thing: Nikki & Caroline also gt the potting shed. Any thots on that?
Quote:
I need more persuasion that Helen's personal space *is* 'contested'. There's no reason in my head against it: I just want to hear more, you know?
abzug wrote:
Hmm. I feel like if I start listing examples I will just be rehashing what I said above, which won't be very helpful if what I said above wasn't persuasive.
Agreed, totally: I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, as (I'd hope) you know, but rather saying cool, let me in on it when your thoughts have travelled further down this road.
abzug wrote:
So its not so much that her personal space is contested as it is that her romantic life is contested (of which her personal space is the physical manifestation).
That's what I was looking for! Thanks much, really.
abzug wrote:
More on that later, must do work.
I got out totally wrong side of bed today, it's snowing so phoocking hard I'll have to shovel, 2, maybe 3x later, & I'm so wasted I think I'm just gonna go take a nap & try again another lifetime. Corporate taxes so suck major weenie.
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:01 pm
Re: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
ekny wrote:
I liked your potting shed subthread (?!) & wondered abt 1 thing: Nikki & Caroline also gt the potting shed. Any thots on that?
I did think of including that in my post above, as an example of Nikki's resistance against Helen "The System" Stewart. She doesn't know Helen's watching, but even pursuing any sort of friendship/romance with Caroline is a rebellion against her relationship with Helen, and the restrictions that relationship has continually imposed (or tried to impose) on her. Whether she and Caroline make out in the shed doesn't matter--the fact that they can go there and interact privately away from Helen's prying eyes is enough to make it an act of resistance.
Quote:
Agreed, totally: I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, as (I'd hope) you know
Oh, I knew I wasn't being put on the spot, I was just covering my ass in advance for when you pointed out how little my additional explanation revealed.
Quote:
I got out totally wrong side of bed today, it's snowing so phoocking hard I'll have to shovel, 2, maybe 3x later, & I'm so wasted I think I'm just gonna go take a nap & try again another lifetime. Corporate taxes so suck major weenie.
Blech! We got a dusting down here, but I am sure that's nothing compared to what you get up by you. But make sure you don't spend all your outside time shoveling--you have to play in the snow at least a little! (See, I am an optimist!)
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abzug Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:01 pm
Another location which is interesting to think about is the courtroom, both interior and exterior. There are three main scenes which take place outside the courthouse (Monica's release speech, the hit on Charlie, and Nikki's release speech), and two main scenes which take place inside the courtroom (Charlie's trial, Nikki's trial). Plus, there are many implied events which take place in the courtroom which we never get to see (such as Nikki's initial trial, for instance).
Courtroom: While this space has the potential for justice (Nikki's appeal trial), much more often its a location of injustice (Nikki's initial trial, Monica's initial trial, Charlie's drug trial etc). There's not much to say about it, other than that it represents the established power structure at its most extreme--this is where people's law-breaking behavior is discplined and punished. Its the very essence of authoritarian social control.
Courthouse Exterior: This is where a lot more interesting things can happen. Its definitely a location of protest/resistance, where wrongs can be rectified (Monica's humanization of her fellow prisoners, Nikki's condemnation of Fenner's sexually predatory behavior, Lauren's hit on Charlie). It seems to be the one place where the thoughts and feelings of the powerless can be expressed fully and openly, and those thoughts and feelings are heard. Not just by the people present, but broadcast to tv viewers throughout London. And unlike the male courtroom (I say male courtroom b/c the judges are always male, and they hold the power, and when a powerful woman like Yvonne tries to influence the outcome, she is completely thwarted), only women get to speak outside the courtoom, either through words (Monica and Nikki) or actions (Lauren).
Its very interesting to think about, because the exterior is a public space, and traditionally women haven't had much influence outside in a public space (vs inside the home). But in the case of Bad Girls, to tie this into the golf course analysis, the more open the space (the golf course, the courthouse exterior, outside Chix), the more women can express themselves and assert control. Contrast this to the courtoom itself, Larkhall prison etc, which are very insular places, where only certain people are allowed in, and in those locations, women have a much more difficult time maintaining power and being in control. Its an ongoing struggle for them.
Thanks for listening as I pontificate.
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ekny Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:20 pm
abzug wrote:
Courtroom: [...]
Courthouse Exterior: [...]
Thanks for listening as I pontificate.
Tosh! It's thinking aloud. Pontificate means you're apologizing for being pompous really--cut that out, mate. (I'd jump in w/more but betw taxes & other stuff I've been at am afraid me brain will start venting out me ears at this rate--sorry, hope to be more on top of it soon.)
Have you considered making a rough wall-chart or just opening up a file with a list of running locations--iow not prestructuring it in any way but just kinda free-associating, initially, & seeing where that takes you? (For all I know you've already thunk it, in which case beg pardon miss, I'll go back to me cell now.)
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:20 pm
Question: Scenes in Helen's apartment
Would that be "feminist and queer, non-linear" wall chart then ekny?
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ekny Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:51 pm
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Would that be "feminist and queer, non-linear" wall chart then ekny? :-D
Heh heh. Check with Abzug, I fink she's self-selected for Wall Chart Queen. Hm. Maybe someone should dub themselves Royal Architect-in-Residence to HM's Château Boghouse, Larkhall Division, & draw us up some blueprints....
You realize it won't be long til we're plaguing the people who've visited the hotel for square-footage, don't you? We're all really quite far gone.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:54 am
Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Yes, I was just wondering about that. I hope for their 150 quid they don't get a cell-sized room with an open bog and a "twatting twat" window!
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abzug Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:58 pm
ekny wrote:
Have you considered making a rough wall-chart or just opening up a file with a list of running locations--iow not prestructuring it in any way but just kinda free-associating, initially, & seeing where that takes you? (For all I know you've already thunk it, in which case beg pardon miss, I'll go back to me cell now.)
I actually have been doing this, but its less of a chart and more of a list. Started it back a few days before I started this thread. I was able to think up the following locations which seemed of interest:
G Wing Interior
The Cells
Prison Exterior
The Potting Shed (ok, its part of the prison exterior, but it seems to have its own meaning, dontcha think?)
Helen's Home
Fenner's Home
Courtroom Interior
Courthouse Exterior
Golf Course
The Brothels
That's all I was really able to come up with. I've jotted down thoughts on each, most of which I've posted somewhere in this thread. Oh, except my take on the cells:
They are the spaces that the prisoners are closest to and most intimately entwined with, and they also represent their total lack of power and control. They are the womens’ homes (as much as they have any) and yet they have no real control over them. They are subject to search on a whim, they are moved from cell to cell for various real (and perceived) offenses, they can be invaded and destroyed by other inmates (Shell confronting Nikki when she first moves to enhanced, the cell fire in season 3 etc). If women’s domain is the home, then these prisoners really are left with nothing, no space they control. As Nikki says to Sean in season 1, “I haven’t got a home” and she’s right. The voyeurism protest in S2E6 may be one of the few times the women try to really control their own cells, blocking the peepholes and putting the male officers in compromising positions through their “performed” state of undress when the cell doors are opened. But its not really a serious or effective protest, because of the futility of the prisoners having any space they really control.
But I haven't been able to make much headway about the general prison spaces (interior, exterior) because at this point those feel a little too complex to boil down into a paragraph. So I'm still thinking about them. All illustrate different power struggles which are going on (between men and women, between the prisoners and the officers etc), but I'm not sure where that takes us.
I also haven't really wanted to take on the brothels or Fenner's home, because both would require me to spend time contemplating Fenner, and I really don't want to put myself through something so unpleasant.
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COOLUK1 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:13 pm
Hi
Interesting points made as ever..
Just a thought~ from what I've seen on TV, US prisons have open bars rather that a solid wall with a door in it..with a peep hole.
Open bars surely raise far more privacy, personal space and voyeurism issues than a mere peep hole.
If a US version of BG is being made set in a US prison it will mean major rejigging of many scenes ..assuming that they stick to existing plots and storylines ...or maybe a rewrite is planned ???
COOL
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ekny Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:08 pm
abzug wrote:
But I haven't been able to make much headway about the general prison spaces (interior, exterior) because at this point those feel a little too complex to boil down into a paragraph. So I'm still thinking about them. All illustrate different power struggles which are going on (between men and women, between the prisoners and the officers etc), but I'm not sure where that takes us.
I also haven't really wanted to take on the brothels or Fenner's home, because both would require me to spend time contemplating Fenner, and I really don't want to put myself through something so unpleasant. :-)
Excellent points abt the cells, and agree abt the overall. Listen, the Fenner thing is disturbing enough: a woman who's a new fan stopped by, she's Jewish, and asked me about what I made of this: she saw a mezzuzah in Fenner's house. She emailed me about it again today: "It's in series 2, episode 3, right after the police leave his house. His wife is talking to him and on the doorjamb next to her is a plain white boxy mezuzah."
The only religious references in the show to characters and their beliefs are Christian, in S1-3, with Femi being the sole exception I can think of. I rewatched the scene & saw the hand hanging up on the wall, but that's generic middle-Eastern, not necess Jewish. My conclusion is that they were borrowing someone's home & the people who dressed the set left it up because to take it down would be disrespectful, in fact, I think, a sin (although Jews don't believe in original sin). I can't believe Shed ever intended Fenner to be Jewish, it would be such a major f*ck-up I really don't want to even contemplate it.
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abzug Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:48 pm
You know, I did notice the hand of god hanging in Fenner's apartment, and I kind of blocked it out, because I didn't like my train of thougt on that one bit. I don't know if that's truly generic middle eastern--I think of that as being specifically middle eastern Jewish. And now that you are mentioning the mezuzah, I think its impossible to ignore: Fenner's a Jew.
Your theory about the borrowing of the flat doesn't explain it away because
1. They could have taken down the hand of god. Its awfully prominent in that phone call scene, and it didn't have to be there.
2. It actually IS allowed to remove a mezuzah from a home. The only case in which you can't is if the people moving into the home next are also Jewish.
Ugh, why oh why did this have to be? I just hate this idea!
Unless, can anyone think of a specific reference to Fenner going to church or something like that? I seem to recall Helen wearing a cross at some point, but I may have been imagining it....
ETA: OK, just debriefed with my gf, and she agrees with you, ekny, just a set direction oversight. Which I guess makes sense, given that I wouldn't expect anyone working on the show was Jewish and would recognize the symbolic meaning of the mezuzah or the hand of god. But that said, then what does that mean about the analysis of the Rodin painting in Helen's apartment?!
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abzug Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:06 pm
COOLUK1 wrote:
Just a thought~ from what I've seen on TV, US prisons have open bars rather that a solid wall with a door in it..with a peep hole.
Well, US prisons on tv have open bars, who knows about US prisons in real life. But its true, I'd be somewhat suprised to see a prison cell on a US tv show with a door. Given how they've done adaptations of other UK shows here (I'm thinking of Queer as Folk and The Office, since those are the two which have been the most successful and ran the longest) I think they only followed the original for an episode or two (for QAF it might have been the first season?) and then went off on their own. Which worries me to no end, of course, when it comes to adapting BG. Our beloved Helen & Nikki romance might be out the window, or they might be deprived of their happy ending.
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ekny Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:34 pm
abzug wrote:
2. It actually IS allowed to remove a mezuzah from a home. The only case in which you can't is if the people moving into the home next are also Jewish.
Am aware of that but it wouldn't have been the case here.
abzug wrote:
Ugh, why oh why did this have to be? I just hate this idea!
I loathe it, and brought it up specifically to dismiss it: anything else would be completely unacceptable.
abzug wrote:
ETA: OK, just debriefed with my gf, and she agrees with you, ekny, just a set direction oversight. Which I guess makes sense, given that I wouldn't expect anyone working on the show was Jewish and would recognize the symbolic meaning of the mezuzah or the hand of god.
Good, relief. I felt guilty as sh*te even bringing it up, it was just too distasteful.
abzug wrote:
But that said, then what does that mean about the analysis of the Rodin painting in Helen's apartment?!
It means at best it's highly speculative, as we've discussed. And heck, I'm still not convinced it's a Rodin. Copyright & reproduction issues. I think a lot of the background art 'looks like' real/famous/recognizable stuff, but may not be, deliberately. Which definitely bites.
ekny - June 2, 2006 03:36 AM (GMT)
Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:14 am
ekny I think that what you and Abzug have stumbled upon, is just another blooper - a problem of set dressing again (or more correctly undressing). I don't think there is any deliberate suggestion that Fenner is Jewish. I went and had a few more looks at Fenner's house and I still can't see this "hand of God" and the mezuzah that you are referring to, as I don't know what I'm looking for and probably the vast majority of people in this country wouldn't know either! So I'm sure it's just an oversight on Shed's part. I don't think there is any specific reference to Fenner & religion anywhere else, from what I can remember. He does make the comment (to either Dom or Sylvia I think) when Shell "finds" religion, that "religion has helped a lot of girls in here".(Of course he does also say to Shell that the closest she'll get to religion is the Missionary Position!)
Other than that the only other clue that we might have to whether he is Jewish, is whether he is a Roundhead or a Cavalier! The only thing we know about Fenner's todger (other than that it is usually where it shouldn't be!) thanks to Shell is that it is "bog standard" - in her exchange with Denny, where she wonders whether she will have to give Mrs. Fenner a "description of his dick" in order for her to believe her! From what I can make out (had a look at a few websites!) probably about 20% to 25% of men in Fenner's age group in the UK are circumcised. So whether Shell would consider him to be bog standard if he was a Roundhead is debatable!
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abzug Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:54 am
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Other than that the only other clue that we might have to whether he is Jewish, is whether he is a Roundhead or a Cavalier!
This has got to be the best laugh I've had all day--and I laughed a lot today, so that's really saying something. I just love that you even went there.
Thanks for the reassurance, btw. And, in case you wanted to watch those scenes again, here's a picture of a "hand of god" which was hanging on the wall in the kitchen next to the phone:
It wouldn't really help to show you a picture of a mezuzah, but its a small rectangular thing attached to the doorframe, usually at about shoulder/head height. From what ekny says, in the case of Fenner's house its white.
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Jeanna Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:05 am
This is all very odd and something I hadn't noticed. But you don't think they were trying to make him out as a sort of Fagin figure do you? I mean...he is a con man...he pulls strings...he manipulates...he's moving into the racket of handling a group of outlaws (prostitutes) for nefarious purposes (of course)...
And he is a charming smiling villain with that little Michael Caine patented smirk of his.
Could they actually have been referencing Dickens?!
(Not that I believe it for a minute...but ya never know...)
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abzug Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:38 am
Jeanna wrote:
But you don't think they were trying to make him out as a sort of Fagin figure do you? I mean...he is a con man...he pulls strings...he manipulates...he's moving into the racket of handling a group of outlaws (prostitutes) for nefarious purposes (of course)...
This is exactly what I'm afraid of! Although it sounds like something we are all contemplating and dismissing. But if it were true, it would be like Tessa Spall being the only lesbian character on the show. Scary thought, eh?
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ekny Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:17 am
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
ekny I think that what you and Abzug have stumbled upon, is just another blooper - a problem of set dressing again (or more correctly undressing). I don't think there is any deliberate suggestion that Fenner is Jewish. [...]
I think so too. Also: Fenner knows hymns.
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Other than that the only other clue that we might have to whether he is Jewish, is whether he is a Roundhead or a Cavalier! [...] From what I can make out (had a look at a few websites!) probably about 20% to 25% of men in Fenner's age group in the UK are circumcised. So whether Shell would consider him to be bog standard if he was a Roundhead is debatable! :lol:
omfg, I can't believe your dedication drove you to these depths! I think circumcision isn't practised nearly so widely in Europe as in the US, but you're right, you'd have to take country of origin, religion, & age group into account. This is too depraved, surely we can settle the question without this unfortunate image in mind?!
I laughed my ass off when I read your post, really, you deserve a special commemorative award for bravery above & beyond the call.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:11 pm
Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Abzug you really are approaching this like a military operation aren't you? Wallcharts! Debriefing your girlfriend! Next you'll be conducting a raid on Fenner's weapon of mass seduction! Although I suspect you may not want to go down that route. (Sorry, bad puns!) And might I ask - Debriefing your girlfriend! How exactly is that going to help us solve the question of Fenner's religious affiliation? It is Fenner that you need to debrief!
(Sorry to give you yet another unfortunate image ekny!)
But thankyou for the illustrated religious education lesson Abzug - I am enlightened. I did see that item on the wall near the phone, but I dismissed it as it didn't look like anything of religious significance to me. In fact that one looks like it has some quirky little figure on it, from what I can make out - dodgy focus on the zoom, your illustration looks more like something that could be religious, but not overtly so, not to someone who didn't know. So I'm sure that whoever dressed the set may well have not been aware. Only about 0.5% of the UK population is Jewish (according to Home Office Statistics), so the level of ignorance on the subject is likely to be high. Society in the UK is generally far more secular than in the US too. But it does go to show how easy it is for ignorance of cultural/religious beliefs to cause misunderstanding. But I truly don't think that Fenner is meant to be portrayed as some kind of "Fagin"! 71.8% of the UK population claim to be Christian (Home Office again) and he is probably bog standard in that regard too!
A word of warning ekny. As you are clearly averse to unfortunate images, don't try that circumcision websearch - some of them were illustrated!
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Jeanna Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:29 pm
You girls are brilliant.
LOL Just Another Mad Bad Fan
Abzug (named for one of the great heroines of my youth, Bella, eh?) should write a book of random musings or an extended scholarly essay on the series. I could not be more fascinated by this close reading.
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ekny Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:07 pm
Re: Fenner's *#(%
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
A word of warning ekny. As you are clearly averse to unfortunate images, don't try that circumcision websearch - some of them were illustrated! :-D
Thank you for sparing my delicate sensibilities.
<polite koff>
;)
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GeauxGurl Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:52 am
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
A word of warning ekny. As you are clearly averse to unfortunate images, don't try that circumcision websearch - some of them were illustrated!
Illustrated, hell!! How would you like to see it done for real!!??? Ouch!!! Seen my share for this lifetime, thank you very much!!!
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n&haddict Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:10 am
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
GeauxGurl wrote:
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
A word of warning ekny. As you are clearly averse to unfortunate images, don't try that circumcision websearch - some of them were illustrated!
Illustrated, hell!! How would you like to see it done for real!!??? Ouch!!! Seen my share for this lifetime, thank you very much!!!
Don't think I want to see it illustrated and I certainly don't want to see it done live!!!
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abzug Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:03 am
Question: Is the art room where Yvonne, the Julies and Denny plan Babes Behind Bars the same art room where Nikki and Helen have their signposts scene? If so, its probably another location worthy of analysis (something about being a locus of women's sexuality--I'd have to think it through a bit more). But the rooms didn't really look exactly the same to me. I may have to rewatch Nikki & Helen's scene. Oh, the burden.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:19 pm
Yes it is the same art room abzug. There is the same painting on the wall behind H & N which we see behind Yvonne. On the window-sill there is a section of branch silhouetted against the light and a pot of paintbrushes etc which appear in the H & N scene too. It would appear then that the art room is a bit of a favourite place for the prisoners to go when they don't want to be seen. Which begs the question, why does Nikki say to Helen "Don't worry, we won't get caught."? Could it be that it is a recognized place where the women know they can go, where they can leave some sort of visual signal outside which says "Don't come in - occupied" and they won't be disturbed?
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abzug Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:57 pm
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
It would appear then that the art room is a bit of a favourite place for the prisoners to go when they don't want to be seen.
I agree, although, of course, this being a prison, how the hell can they ever assume they won't be seen? I mean, there's no peephole on the door, and there's no guard who is staffed to sit in the room (as there is in the library), but its not like the door locks or anything. It does seem to be the only truly private space inside the walls of the prison (the library is only intermittently private, so there's always a risk of being interrupted there, as Nikki learned the hard way).
So, why is the artroom the place where Helen & Nikki will be "safe" to quote Nikki's line? And not just safe, but safe to initiate sexual contact. This is where it dovetails with the Babes Behind Bars effort. Hmm, something about art, creative expression being in some way parallel to sexual expression? Does it maybe tie into Nikki's whole thing about how all her privilages are in her head, and then another time in season 3 about her sense of humor being the only thing the screws can't touch? I guess one could argue that creating art is similar to Barbara writing in her journal, although, of course, Barbara's expression of her innermost thoughts WAS intruded on and violated. Art is more abstract however, and therefore less easy for the screws to successfully interpret, control or appropriate.
It does make an interesting contrast to the library then, where the activities of the prisoners are so easily observed (ie "read") by the screws.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:40 am
abzug, I noticed that the Lifers' Group has its very first meeting (in Series 2) in some sort of an office - the one that Dominic was wanting to lock up when he walked in on H & N after the "I'm gonna show you a good time when I get out of here" scene. That is the only meeting which we see in Series 2, as Nikki misses one to go & see the nurse after her argument with Helen. Thereafter, in Series 3, all the Lifers' Group meetings take place in the library, which in reality would surely be a strange place to have them as either people would be wandering in and out of it, or they would have to close it for the duration of the meeting. So surely there must be some sort of message in this?
I wondered if it is tied up with Helen & Nikki's relationship,
as there are several key moments in the development of their relationship that either take place in the library, or relate to books. There is that moment in the dining room ("Oh you've finished Middlemarch"), where there is a definite awareness of each other. The occasion when Helen is walking past Nikki's cell and goes in ("More George Eliot. It's good to see the women making use of the library" - also signals Helen's regard for self-improvement), there is that moment when Nikki makes the comment about Helen being better off training chimpanzees than Fenner, Helen is clearly amused and identifies with N's view - she is "us" with the prisoners to Fenner's "them". She also speaks in confidence to Nikki for the first time ("He thinks you're a tough nut").
The first breakthrough moment in their relationship, where we clearly see that Nikki fancies Helen & Helen certainly seems to be flirting with her (even if she is possibly unaware of it, I'm sure Nikki sees it as such),happens in the garden after Helen's return from her break. They talk about the fact that Helen has had a chance to catch up on her reading - this immediately links them. She asks "Have you read 'Sophie's World'?" This is and an interesting choice of novel too, because as its subject is philosophy (seeking after wisdom or knowledge) and thus involves the mind and thinking, it perhaps points to their initial attraction being an intellectual one and also the fact that they are on the same wavelength - the beginnings of the whole "soulmates" thing. Obviously following on from this is Helen's giving N the copy of "Sophie's World" in her cell, linked with the whole education/degree studies thing. Nikki is open/allows herself to be vulnerable with Helen, by admitting that she is scared.
Then there is Helen's "fishing expedition" in the library - the "Juliet & Juliet moment ("Have you never been interested in men?"... "How can you be sure?"... "I'm not interested in women, not in that way.") and the "Oranges" moment ("You should give it a go sometime, you don't know what you're missing"). This is perhaps Helen's first possible little, sneaking hint of awareness of feeling some attraction to Nikki. There is the hungover, pasty Helen scene in the library ("What's wrong? Am I making you feel uncomfortable?") Of course how can we forget that "story about a terrible prison", "Little Dorrit" and their first kiss! The beginning of Helen's release from her own prison?
Then there are their other significant encounters in the library - Helen's return as head of the Lifers' Unit ("The Portrait of a Lady"), The "Are you a cold-blooded killer?" scene and of course the dreadful "H catching N kissing Caroline" moment, which seems more pointed because of the importance/significance of the library in Nikki & Helen's relationship. Helen always knows where to find Nikki if she's not in her cell or the garden, she is more likely than not in the library. By snogging Caroline in the place that represents this intellectual/meeting-of-the-mind link between the two of them, Nikki violates and ruptures that mind bond and we see her missing those signals from Helen which we discussed elsewhere, so that they no longer "get each other". Finally there is the Helen giving up her career to save Nikki's appeal "Goodbye Nikki" moment, which ties up their library encounters So that there is a full circle from the official start of them as a couple - Helen's return as Lifers' Governor, to her leaving - in both instances Nikki is the first person she tells.
Along with these, there are also significant moments in the library after Lifers' meetings. Helen tells Nikki about her promotion to Number One Governor. ( Here I am going to digress a little to have a little moment of wanting to kick Nikki's butt. Poor old Helen is just so excited about her promotion here and you can see that she can't wait to share it with Nikki - she steals little glances at her before she leaves the room and hardly waits for the others to be out of the room before calling her back to tell her the good news. She is like an excited kid, positively bursting with pride and excitement to share this news with the only person in the prison who is likely to be pleased with this news, and what does she get? Nikki with a face like a slapped arse! Aaaargh! I want to slap her too, she can be so annoying sometimes! Poor Helen, you can see her visibly deflate with disappointment and the hurt in her eyes on "Yeah it means you'll be top of the shit-heap" "God, I can always rely on you for a hard time can't I?" Aaah poor thing! Bad Nikki!) Rant over, now back to the subject! There is also the scene where Nikki confronts Helen about Thomas. In both these instances Nikki gets some news - she learns of something.
The Lifers' group meeting in the library also links in with the importance which Helen places on education. The aim of the Lifers' unit seems to be to create greater awareness of themselves, what they have done and how they can make the best of their situation, in order to better equip them for life once they get out of prison and possibly stop them coming back - so it too, like the library has an educational function. There are probably other things that I had thought of, but it is now 1.40am and my brain is sagging! So I'll leave it there. (Thank the Lord for that, I hear you all sigh! Sorry, this has been an overly long post - even for me! )
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ekny Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:43 am
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
By snogging Caroline in the place that represents this intellectual/meeting-of-the-mind link between the two of them, Nikki violates and ruptures that mind bond and we see her missing those signals from Helen which we discussed elsewhere, so that they no longer "get each other". Finally there is the Helen giving up her career to save Nikki's appeal "Goodbye Nikki" moment, which ties up their library encounters So that there is a full circle from the official start of them as a couple - Helen's return as Lifers' Governor, to her leaving - in both instances Nikki is the first person she tells.
[...]There is also the scene where Nikki confronts Helen about Thomas. In both these instances Nikki gets some news - she learns of something.
[...]this has been an overly long post - even for me! :lol: )
I don't have anything to add but no need to apologize, it wasn't overly long, you made a lot of really good points & it was very clearly laid out--so thanks, I enjoyed reading it! --e
ekny I think that what you and Abzug have stumbled upon, is just another blooper - a problem of set dressing again (or more correctly undressing). I don't think there is any deliberate suggestion that Fenner is Jewish. I went and had a few more looks at Fenner's house and I still can't see this "hand of God" and the mezuzah that you are referring to, as I don't know what I'm looking for and probably the vast majority of people in this country wouldn't know either! So I'm sure it's just an oversight on Shed's part. I don't think there is any specific reference to Fenner & religion anywhere else, from what I can remember. He does make the comment (to either Dom or Sylvia I think) when Shell "finds" religion, that "religion has helped a lot of girls in here".(Of course he does also say to Shell that the closest she'll get to religion is the Missionary Position!)
Other than that the only other clue that we might have to whether he is Jewish, is whether he is a Roundhead or a Cavalier! The only thing we know about Fenner's todger (other than that it is usually where it shouldn't be!) thanks to Shell is that it is "bog standard" - in her exchange with Denny, where she wonders whether she will have to give Mrs. Fenner a "description of his dick" in order for her to believe her! From what I can make out (had a look at a few websites!) probably about 20% to 25% of men in Fenner's age group in the UK are circumcised. So whether Shell would consider him to be bog standard if he was a Roundhead is debatable!
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abzug Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:54 am
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Other than that the only other clue that we might have to whether he is Jewish, is whether he is a Roundhead or a Cavalier!
This has got to be the best laugh I've had all day--and I laughed a lot today, so that's really saying something. I just love that you even went there.
Thanks for the reassurance, btw. And, in case you wanted to watch those scenes again, here's a picture of a "hand of god" which was hanging on the wall in the kitchen next to the phone:
It wouldn't really help to show you a picture of a mezuzah, but its a small rectangular thing attached to the doorframe, usually at about shoulder/head height. From what ekny says, in the case of Fenner's house its white.
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Jeanna Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:05 am
This is all very odd and something I hadn't noticed. But you don't think they were trying to make him out as a sort of Fagin figure do you? I mean...he is a con man...he pulls strings...he manipulates...he's moving into the racket of handling a group of outlaws (prostitutes) for nefarious purposes (of course)...
And he is a charming smiling villain with that little Michael Caine patented smirk of his.
Could they actually have been referencing Dickens?!
(Not that I believe it for a minute...but ya never know...)
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abzug Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:38 am
Jeanna wrote:
But you don't think they were trying to make him out as a sort of Fagin figure do you? I mean...he is a con man...he pulls strings...he manipulates...he's moving into the racket of handling a group of outlaws (prostitutes) for nefarious purposes (of course)...
This is exactly what I'm afraid of! Although it sounds like something we are all contemplating and dismissing. But if it were true, it would be like Tessa Spall being the only lesbian character on the show. Scary thought, eh?
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ekny Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:17 am
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
ekny I think that what you and Abzug have stumbled upon, is just another blooper - a problem of set dressing again (or more correctly undressing). I don't think there is any deliberate suggestion that Fenner is Jewish. [...]
I think so too. Also: Fenner knows hymns.
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Other than that the only other clue that we might have to whether he is Jewish, is whether he is a Roundhead or a Cavalier! [...] From what I can make out (had a look at a few websites!) probably about 20% to 25% of men in Fenner's age group in the UK are circumcised. So whether Shell would consider him to be bog standard if he was a Roundhead is debatable! :lol:
omfg, I can't believe your dedication drove you to these depths! I think circumcision isn't practised nearly so widely in Europe as in the US, but you're right, you'd have to take country of origin, religion, & age group into account. This is too depraved, surely we can settle the question without this unfortunate image in mind?!
I laughed my ass off when I read your post, really, you deserve a special commemorative award for bravery above & beyond the call.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:11 pm
Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Abzug you really are approaching this like a military operation aren't you? Wallcharts! Debriefing your girlfriend! Next you'll be conducting a raid on Fenner's weapon of mass seduction! Although I suspect you may not want to go down that route. (Sorry, bad puns!) And might I ask - Debriefing your girlfriend! How exactly is that going to help us solve the question of Fenner's religious affiliation? It is Fenner that you need to debrief!
(Sorry to give you yet another unfortunate image ekny!)
But thankyou for the illustrated religious education lesson Abzug - I am enlightened. I did see that item on the wall near the phone, but I dismissed it as it didn't look like anything of religious significance to me. In fact that one looks like it has some quirky little figure on it, from what I can make out - dodgy focus on the zoom, your illustration looks more like something that could be religious, but not overtly so, not to someone who didn't know. So I'm sure that whoever dressed the set may well have not been aware. Only about 0.5% of the UK population is Jewish (according to Home Office Statistics), so the level of ignorance on the subject is likely to be high. Society in the UK is generally far more secular than in the US too. But it does go to show how easy it is for ignorance of cultural/religious beliefs to cause misunderstanding. But I truly don't think that Fenner is meant to be portrayed as some kind of "Fagin"! 71.8% of the UK population claim to be Christian (Home Office again) and he is probably bog standard in that regard too!
A word of warning ekny. As you are clearly averse to unfortunate images, don't try that circumcision websearch - some of them were illustrated!
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Jeanna Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:29 pm
You girls are brilliant.
LOL Just Another Mad Bad Fan
Abzug (named for one of the great heroines of my youth, Bella, eh?) should write a book of random musings or an extended scholarly essay on the series. I could not be more fascinated by this close reading.
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ekny Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:07 pm
Re: Fenner's *#(%
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
A word of warning ekny. As you are clearly averse to unfortunate images, don't try that circumcision websearch - some of them were illustrated! :-D
Thank you for sparing my delicate sensibilities.
<polite koff>
;)
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GeauxGurl Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:52 am
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
A word of warning ekny. As you are clearly averse to unfortunate images, don't try that circumcision websearch - some of them were illustrated!
Illustrated, hell!! How would you like to see it done for real!!??? Ouch!!! Seen my share for this lifetime, thank you very much!!!
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n&haddict Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:10 am
Re: Question: Scenes in Helen's Apartment
GeauxGurl wrote:
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
A word of warning ekny. As you are clearly averse to unfortunate images, don't try that circumcision websearch - some of them were illustrated!
Illustrated, hell!! How would you like to see it done for real!!??? Ouch!!! Seen my share for this lifetime, thank you very much!!!
Don't think I want to see it illustrated and I certainly don't want to see it done live!!!
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abzug Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:03 am
Question: Is the art room where Yvonne, the Julies and Denny plan Babes Behind Bars the same art room where Nikki and Helen have their signposts scene? If so, its probably another location worthy of analysis (something about being a locus of women's sexuality--I'd have to think it through a bit more). But the rooms didn't really look exactly the same to me. I may have to rewatch Nikki & Helen's scene. Oh, the burden.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:19 pm
Yes it is the same art room abzug. There is the same painting on the wall behind H & N which we see behind Yvonne. On the window-sill there is a section of branch silhouetted against the light and a pot of paintbrushes etc which appear in the H & N scene too. It would appear then that the art room is a bit of a favourite place for the prisoners to go when they don't want to be seen. Which begs the question, why does Nikki say to Helen "Don't worry, we won't get caught."? Could it be that it is a recognized place where the women know they can go, where they can leave some sort of visual signal outside which says "Don't come in - occupied" and they won't be disturbed?
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abzug Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:57 pm
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
It would appear then that the art room is a bit of a favourite place for the prisoners to go when they don't want to be seen.
I agree, although, of course, this being a prison, how the hell can they ever assume they won't be seen? I mean, there's no peephole on the door, and there's no guard who is staffed to sit in the room (as there is in the library), but its not like the door locks or anything. It does seem to be the only truly private space inside the walls of the prison (the library is only intermittently private, so there's always a risk of being interrupted there, as Nikki learned the hard way).
So, why is the artroom the place where Helen & Nikki will be "safe" to quote Nikki's line? And not just safe, but safe to initiate sexual contact. This is where it dovetails with the Babes Behind Bars effort. Hmm, something about art, creative expression being in some way parallel to sexual expression? Does it maybe tie into Nikki's whole thing about how all her privilages are in her head, and then another time in season 3 about her sense of humor being the only thing the screws can't touch? I guess one could argue that creating art is similar to Barbara writing in her journal, although, of course, Barbara's expression of her innermost thoughts WAS intruded on and violated. Art is more abstract however, and therefore less easy for the screws to successfully interpret, control or appropriate.
It does make an interesting contrast to the library then, where the activities of the prisoners are so easily observed (ie "read") by the screws.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:40 am
abzug, I noticed that the Lifers' Group has its very first meeting (in Series 2) in some sort of an office - the one that Dominic was wanting to lock up when he walked in on H & N after the "I'm gonna show you a good time when I get out of here" scene. That is the only meeting which we see in Series 2, as Nikki misses one to go & see the nurse after her argument with Helen. Thereafter, in Series 3, all the Lifers' Group meetings take place in the library, which in reality would surely be a strange place to have them as either people would be wandering in and out of it, or they would have to close it for the duration of the meeting. So surely there must be some sort of message in this?
I wondered if it is tied up with Helen & Nikki's relationship,
as there are several key moments in the development of their relationship that either take place in the library, or relate to books. There is that moment in the dining room ("Oh you've finished Middlemarch"), where there is a definite awareness of each other. The occasion when Helen is walking past Nikki's cell and goes in ("More George Eliot. It's good to see the women making use of the library" - also signals Helen's regard for self-improvement), there is that moment when Nikki makes the comment about Helen being better off training chimpanzees than Fenner, Helen is clearly amused and identifies with N's view - she is "us" with the prisoners to Fenner's "them". She also speaks in confidence to Nikki for the first time ("He thinks you're a tough nut").
The first breakthrough moment in their relationship, where we clearly see that Nikki fancies Helen & Helen certainly seems to be flirting with her (even if she is possibly unaware of it, I'm sure Nikki sees it as such),happens in the garden after Helen's return from her break. They talk about the fact that Helen has had a chance to catch up on her reading - this immediately links them. She asks "Have you read 'Sophie's World'?" This is and an interesting choice of novel too, because as its subject is philosophy (seeking after wisdom or knowledge) and thus involves the mind and thinking, it perhaps points to their initial attraction being an intellectual one and also the fact that they are on the same wavelength - the beginnings of the whole "soulmates" thing. Obviously following on from this is Helen's giving N the copy of "Sophie's World" in her cell, linked with the whole education/degree studies thing. Nikki is open/allows herself to be vulnerable with Helen, by admitting that she is scared.
Then there is Helen's "fishing expedition" in the library - the "Juliet & Juliet moment ("Have you never been interested in men?"... "How can you be sure?"... "I'm not interested in women, not in that way.") and the "Oranges" moment ("You should give it a go sometime, you don't know what you're missing"). This is perhaps Helen's first possible little, sneaking hint of awareness of feeling some attraction to Nikki. There is the hungover, pasty Helen scene in the library ("What's wrong? Am I making you feel uncomfortable?") Of course how can we forget that "story about a terrible prison", "Little Dorrit" and their first kiss! The beginning of Helen's release from her own prison?
Then there are their other significant encounters in the library - Helen's return as head of the Lifers' Unit ("The Portrait of a Lady"), The "Are you a cold-blooded killer?" scene and of course the dreadful "H catching N kissing Caroline" moment, which seems more pointed because of the importance/significance of the library in Nikki & Helen's relationship. Helen always knows where to find Nikki if she's not in her cell or the garden, she is more likely than not in the library. By snogging Caroline in the place that represents this intellectual/meeting-of-the-mind link between the two of them, Nikki violates and ruptures that mind bond and we see her missing those signals from Helen which we discussed elsewhere, so that they no longer "get each other". Finally there is the Helen giving up her career to save Nikki's appeal "Goodbye Nikki" moment, which ties up their library encounters So that there is a full circle from the official start of them as a couple - Helen's return as Lifers' Governor, to her leaving - in both instances Nikki is the first person she tells.
Along with these, there are also significant moments in the library after Lifers' meetings. Helen tells Nikki about her promotion to Number One Governor. ( Here I am going to digress a little to have a little moment of wanting to kick Nikki's butt. Poor old Helen is just so excited about her promotion here and you can see that she can't wait to share it with Nikki - she steals little glances at her before she leaves the room and hardly waits for the others to be out of the room before calling her back to tell her the good news. She is like an excited kid, positively bursting with pride and excitement to share this news with the only person in the prison who is likely to be pleased with this news, and what does she get? Nikki with a face like a slapped arse! Aaaargh! I want to slap her too, she can be so annoying sometimes! Poor Helen, you can see her visibly deflate with disappointment and the hurt in her eyes on "Yeah it means you'll be top of the shit-heap" "God, I can always rely on you for a hard time can't I?" Aaah poor thing! Bad Nikki!) Rant over, now back to the subject! There is also the scene where Nikki confronts Helen about Thomas. In both these instances Nikki gets some news - she learns of something.
The Lifers' group meeting in the library also links in with the importance which Helen places on education. The aim of the Lifers' unit seems to be to create greater awareness of themselves, what they have done and how they can make the best of their situation, in order to better equip them for life once they get out of prison and possibly stop them coming back - so it too, like the library has an educational function. There are probably other things that I had thought of, but it is now 1.40am and my brain is sagging! So I'll leave it there. (Thank the Lord for that, I hear you all sigh! Sorry, this has been an overly long post - even for me! )
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ekny Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:43 am
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
By snogging Caroline in the place that represents this intellectual/meeting-of-the-mind link between the two of them, Nikki violates and ruptures that mind bond and we see her missing those signals from Helen which we discussed elsewhere, so that they no longer "get each other". Finally there is the Helen giving up her career to save Nikki's appeal "Goodbye Nikki" moment, which ties up their library encounters So that there is a full circle from the official start of them as a couple - Helen's return as Lifers' Governor, to her leaving - in both instances Nikki is the first person she tells.
[...]There is also the scene where Nikki confronts Helen about Thomas. In both these instances Nikki gets some news - she learns of something.
[...]this has been an overly long post - even for me! :lol: )
I don't have anything to add but no need to apologize, it wasn't overly long, you made a lot of really good points & it was very clearly laid out--so thanks, I enjoyed reading it! --e
ekny - June 2, 2006 03:40 AM (GMT)
abzug Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:02 pm
Wow, JAMBF, I must say, I'm impressed. I had been a bit too intimidated to take on a break down of the library, because there is just SO MUCH of it, but you did an amazing job.
I keep thinking that this analysis should lead to something that is greater than the sum of all of its parts, but I haven't figured out what that is yet. I'm sure if we all put our heads together....
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:41 pm
Yeah abzug, that is my problem, I just can't work out what the "greater than the sum" is, I was hoping you girls could "shed" some light on it! Come on ekny, you are the one with all the maths problems, what's the sum here?
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ekny Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:55 pm
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Yeah abzug, that is my problem, I just can't work out what the "greater than the sum" is, I was hoping you girls could "shed" some light on it! Come on ekny, you are the one with all the maths problems, what's the sum here? :-D
Ooch, me, maths? Oh, you mean the Mock Joke! (someone read it? wow.) ;) Nah, I've no interest in math, that's me mum.
However, was discussing the idea of a glossary with Abzug; that'd be best in a db or excel spreadsheet, but am wondering how to start such an ambitious project. Why o Why does Shed not release transcripts? Thus my daily prayer.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:15 am
I enjoyed the Mock Joke ekny and a comeback line like I have "17.8 cosecants on my trapezoid" suggests that you do have some interest in maths!
I thought abzug had all her military operation wallcharts anyway, so she should be able to work this one out! You ask why Shed doesn't release transcripts - you mean you haven't got one running in your head? I thought that's what the voices were!
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ekny Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:01 am
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
You ask why Shed doesn't release transcripts - you mean you haven't got one running in your head? I thought that's what the voices were! :lol:
;) ! Too right. Thank heavens someone else hears 'em, now I can take this aluminum wrap off.
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Jeanna Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:23 am
And what are the meerkats saying?
I'm convinced, in the co-operative little enclaves in which they dwell, that should the human race off itself tomorrow (as seems more and more likely to happen) that they will fill in quite nicely as a niche species with incentive to develop into bipedal intelligence. The Meerkats shall inherit the earth.
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richard Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:50 pm
space
Only a quick post but I've read with total fascination the clear, very worked out thesis on space and it makes an enormous amount of sense.
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abzug Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:01 pm
Re: space
richard wrote:
the clear, very worked out thesis on space
Richard, would you mind telling us what it is? ;-)
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richard Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:16 pm
space
Oops, I think I have caused a bit of confusion when all I was referring to were the highly interesting posts on page 1 - 2 describing what the courtroom , court exterior, the potting shed, the prisoner's cells, etc represented. Hope this explains, abzug.
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abzug Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:55 pm
Oh, I knew what you meant Richard. I was just joking about our inability to figure out what it all means together. Right now its like a bunch of interesting pieces of analysis, but with no overriding meaning or theme. Like, what the heck is Shed trying to say about space, who controls it. Like, who has power/control where, and what does that say about power, and power struggles in prison? And what does that say about prison?
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richard Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:34 pm
an attempt at an answer
Good question, abzug. I am definitely winging it on this one so bear with me and feel free to come in on any point that you want to make.
Before I start, there is the curious situation of the PO room. This is primarily the prison officers into which the wing governor makes periodic appearances / intrusions, the place where public debates take place but hidden from the prisoners (except for the red ban prisoner who pours tea for the PO's and can overhear conversations. This illustrates that the prison officers aren't monolithic but there are tensions within them. Helen proposing that Nikki go up the 3's is the classic instance.
this is a good instance that prison officers aren't omnicient and all powerful and that, even within prison, there are disputed areas, even if temporarily. Each part of the prison is defined by its 'official role' but that doesn't make for a static structure. Ultimately the dynamics of the power dynamics and relationships in prison operate work in synch or in tension with with the spatial structure. Likewise, the written rules aren't written in tablets of stone.
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ekny Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:03 pm
Re: an attempt at an answer
richard wrote:
this is a good instance that prison officers aren't omnicient and all powerful and that, even within prison, there are disputed areas, even if temporarily. Each part of the prison is defined by its 'official role' but that doesn't make for a static structure. Ultimately the dynamics of the power dynamics and relationships in prison operate work in synch or in tension with with the spatial structure. Likewise, the written rules aren't written in tablets of stone.
Richard, thx for an excellent post. I was mid-reply when it came in, so will just add my 2¢ here.
abzug wrote:
I was just joking about our inability to figure out what it all means together. Right now its like a bunch of interesting pieces of analysis, but with no overriding meaning or theme. Like, what the heck is Shed trying to say about space, who controls it. Like, who has power/control where, and what does that say about power, and power struggles in prison? And what does that say about prison?
The classic 'ideal' model of the prison is the Panopticon (Jeremy Bentham), originally conceived of as circular, with a tower in the center from which prison guards, unobserved themselves behind blinds, could observe prisoners at their will: at all times, in every place. It's important to note the application, in real life, has proven impossible thus far.
The seed of the idea was architectural/ideological (a more cost-efficient prison in which the idea of surveillance was as important in disciplining prisoners as its practice), but has obvious political & cultural implications that far outreach my ability to summarize: see: Foucault et al, current writings about surveillance culture, on & on. It's an idea w/an interesting (to me), complicated history across different disciplines that's still being written.
Thesis: the truth behind prison dramas like BG, & real prisons as well, is that surveillance is not 100% or omnipresent. To large extent, prisoners' lives happen in the interstices, the gaps, the places where they are not observed. (BG extends this to include the guards' lives, too. I would also extend it metaphorically to say their lives happen between 'official' events, whether they are present at them or not. If drugs get passed during a visit, the guards & the prisoners saw two different versions of the same event. They walk around the yard for exercise, but what's 'important' there is that information gets exchanged, not that walking takes place.) If we look to where, how, in what ways all kinds of mission-critical events in the lives of every single character in BG are played out, it immediately becomes clear: that's almost everywhere. In practice, the 'real' thing is as far from the Panopticon as it can be, even with CCTV cameras installed after they try to privitize. Finding exceptions is harder than finding the (broken, dysfunctional) rule (i.e. practice), despite the fact that the rule is directly contrary to the ideal. This is what I understood Richard to have been getting at when he wrote "the written rules aren't written in tablets of stone": in practice, the model does not work.
I suspect if you start to categorize different spaces according to who maximizes access to them, in what ways, for what purposes, etc--as you & jambf have begun to do w/the library & art room & as Richard just did in his post--you'll find little acts of sedition everywhere, varying according to character & storyline, but some consistant types of resistance depending strictly on space. Richard's line here is particularly good, I thought: "Ultimately the dynamics of the power dynamics and relationships in prison operate work in synch or in tension with with the spatial structure."
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richard Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:16 pm
Hi ekny. I was very pleased by your response to my rather tentative post. If I get it right, your piece draws a very nice link between , at the very least, architecture, surveillance and the prison officer system and is something that makes valid connections.
Nikki's comments to Babs when she was planning her escape fits in here very nicely when she said something like "what screws are supposed to do and what they will do are two different things. Criminal, isn't it."
It makes the very valid point that the reality of prison rules and regulations can't be taken from the official handbooks, mission statements, etc etc- it goes for all organisations.
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abzug Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:24 pm
In reference to ths spacial structure, did someone mention in any of the previous posts that the issue of surveillance seems strangely reversed in the architecture of Larkhall? The officer's break room has a glass window (so all the prisoners can see in), while the cells have full walls and doors. Sure, the cell doors have peepholes etc, but that requires intentional surveillance in close proximity. Strange that in Larkhall itself, the prisoners should (almost) have more privacy than the screws--or at least, more "interstices" as ekny put it.
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ekny Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:47 pm
abzug wrote:
In reference to ths spacial structure, did someone mention in any of the previous posts that the issue of surveillance seems strangely reversed in the architecture of Larkhall? The officer's break room has a glass window (so all the prisoners can see in), while the cells have full walls and doors. Sure, the cell doors have peepholes etc, but that requires intentional surveillance in close proximity.
Was Larkhall originally designed/intended to be a prison? It's an incredibly old building, it certainly predates any ideas around designing "ideal" prison spaces. The prison officials, like any set of bureaucrats, have to work with what they're given, & yeah, it's about as far from optimal as possible--to the point where, as Abzug notes, the screws almost are as easily viewed as the cons. Of course, the officers & officials have the keys, can come & go as they please, etc. But yes, the biggest point about this aspect of surveillance is how difficult it is to enforce w/o making it two-way.
Wow, JAMBF, I must say, I'm impressed. I had been a bit too intimidated to take on a break down of the library, because there is just SO MUCH of it, but you did an amazing job.
I keep thinking that this analysis should lead to something that is greater than the sum of all of its parts, but I haven't figured out what that is yet. I'm sure if we all put our heads together....
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:41 pm
Yeah abzug, that is my problem, I just can't work out what the "greater than the sum" is, I was hoping you girls could "shed" some light on it! Come on ekny, you are the one with all the maths problems, what's the sum here?
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ekny Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:55 pm
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Yeah abzug, that is my problem, I just can't work out what the "greater than the sum" is, I was hoping you girls could "shed" some light on it! Come on ekny, you are the one with all the maths problems, what's the sum here? :-D
Ooch, me, maths? Oh, you mean the Mock Joke! (someone read it? wow.) ;) Nah, I've no interest in math, that's me mum.
However, was discussing the idea of a glossary with Abzug; that'd be best in a db or excel spreadsheet, but am wondering how to start such an ambitious project. Why o Why does Shed not release transcripts? Thus my daily prayer.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:15 am
I enjoyed the Mock Joke ekny and a comeback line like I have "17.8 cosecants on my trapezoid" suggests that you do have some interest in maths!
I thought abzug had all her military operation wallcharts anyway, so she should be able to work this one out! You ask why Shed doesn't release transcripts - you mean you haven't got one running in your head? I thought that's what the voices were!
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ekny Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:01 am
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
You ask why Shed doesn't release transcripts - you mean you haven't got one running in your head? I thought that's what the voices were! :lol:
;) ! Too right. Thank heavens someone else hears 'em, now I can take this aluminum wrap off.
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Jeanna Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:23 am
And what are the meerkats saying?
I'm convinced, in the co-operative little enclaves in which they dwell, that should the human race off itself tomorrow (as seems more and more likely to happen) that they will fill in quite nicely as a niche species with incentive to develop into bipedal intelligence. The Meerkats shall inherit the earth.
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richard Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:50 pm
space
Only a quick post but I've read with total fascination the clear, very worked out thesis on space and it makes an enormous amount of sense.
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abzug Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:01 pm
Re: space
richard wrote:
the clear, very worked out thesis on space
Richard, would you mind telling us what it is? ;-)
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richard Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:16 pm
space
Oops, I think I have caused a bit of confusion when all I was referring to were the highly interesting posts on page 1 - 2 describing what the courtroom , court exterior, the potting shed, the prisoner's cells, etc represented. Hope this explains, abzug.
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abzug Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:55 pm
Oh, I knew what you meant Richard. I was just joking about our inability to figure out what it all means together. Right now its like a bunch of interesting pieces of analysis, but with no overriding meaning or theme. Like, what the heck is Shed trying to say about space, who controls it. Like, who has power/control where, and what does that say about power, and power struggles in prison? And what does that say about prison?
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richard Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:34 pm
an attempt at an answer
Good question, abzug. I am definitely winging it on this one so bear with me and feel free to come in on any point that you want to make.
Before I start, there is the curious situation of the PO room. This is primarily the prison officers into which the wing governor makes periodic appearances / intrusions, the place where public debates take place but hidden from the prisoners (except for the red ban prisoner who pours tea for the PO's and can overhear conversations. This illustrates that the prison officers aren't monolithic but there are tensions within them. Helen proposing that Nikki go up the 3's is the classic instance.
this is a good instance that prison officers aren't omnicient and all powerful and that, even within prison, there are disputed areas, even if temporarily. Each part of the prison is defined by its 'official role' but that doesn't make for a static structure. Ultimately the dynamics of the power dynamics and relationships in prison operate work in synch or in tension with with the spatial structure. Likewise, the written rules aren't written in tablets of stone.
_________________
ekny Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:03 pm
Re: an attempt at an answer
richard wrote:
this is a good instance that prison officers aren't omnicient and all powerful and that, even within prison, there are disputed areas, even if temporarily. Each part of the prison is defined by its 'official role' but that doesn't make for a static structure. Ultimately the dynamics of the power dynamics and relationships in prison operate work in synch or in tension with with the spatial structure. Likewise, the written rules aren't written in tablets of stone.
Richard, thx for an excellent post. I was mid-reply when it came in, so will just add my 2¢ here.
abzug wrote:
I was just joking about our inability to figure out what it all means together. Right now its like a bunch of interesting pieces of analysis, but with no overriding meaning or theme. Like, what the heck is Shed trying to say about space, who controls it. Like, who has power/control where, and what does that say about power, and power struggles in prison? And what does that say about prison?
The classic 'ideal' model of the prison is the Panopticon (Jeremy Bentham), originally conceived of as circular, with a tower in the center from which prison guards, unobserved themselves behind blinds, could observe prisoners at their will: at all times, in every place. It's important to note the application, in real life, has proven impossible thus far.
The seed of the idea was architectural/ideological (a more cost-efficient prison in which the idea of surveillance was as important in disciplining prisoners as its practice), but has obvious political & cultural implications that far outreach my ability to summarize: see: Foucault et al, current writings about surveillance culture, on & on. It's an idea w/an interesting (to me), complicated history across different disciplines that's still being written.
Thesis: the truth behind prison dramas like BG, & real prisons as well, is that surveillance is not 100% or omnipresent. To large extent, prisoners' lives happen in the interstices, the gaps, the places where they are not observed. (BG extends this to include the guards' lives, too. I would also extend it metaphorically to say their lives happen between 'official' events, whether they are present at them or not. If drugs get passed during a visit, the guards & the prisoners saw two different versions of the same event. They walk around the yard for exercise, but what's 'important' there is that information gets exchanged, not that walking takes place.) If we look to where, how, in what ways all kinds of mission-critical events in the lives of every single character in BG are played out, it immediately becomes clear: that's almost everywhere. In practice, the 'real' thing is as far from the Panopticon as it can be, even with CCTV cameras installed after they try to privitize. Finding exceptions is harder than finding the (broken, dysfunctional) rule (i.e. practice), despite the fact that the rule is directly contrary to the ideal. This is what I understood Richard to have been getting at when he wrote "the written rules aren't written in tablets of stone": in practice, the model does not work.
I suspect if you start to categorize different spaces according to who maximizes access to them, in what ways, for what purposes, etc--as you & jambf have begun to do w/the library & art room & as Richard just did in his post--you'll find little acts of sedition everywhere, varying according to character & storyline, but some consistant types of resistance depending strictly on space. Richard's line here is particularly good, I thought: "Ultimately the dynamics of the power dynamics and relationships in prison operate work in synch or in tension with with the spatial structure."
_________________
richard Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:16 pm
Hi ekny. I was very pleased by your response to my rather tentative post. If I get it right, your piece draws a very nice link between , at the very least, architecture, surveillance and the prison officer system and is something that makes valid connections.
Nikki's comments to Babs when she was planning her escape fits in here very nicely when she said something like "what screws are supposed to do and what they will do are two different things. Criminal, isn't it."
It makes the very valid point that the reality of prison rules and regulations can't be taken from the official handbooks, mission statements, etc etc- it goes for all organisations.
_________________
abzug Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:24 pm
In reference to ths spacial structure, did someone mention in any of the previous posts that the issue of surveillance seems strangely reversed in the architecture of Larkhall? The officer's break room has a glass window (so all the prisoners can see in), while the cells have full walls and doors. Sure, the cell doors have peepholes etc, but that requires intentional surveillance in close proximity. Strange that in Larkhall itself, the prisoners should (almost) have more privacy than the screws--or at least, more "interstices" as ekny put it.
_________________
ekny Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:47 pm
abzug wrote:
In reference to ths spacial structure, did someone mention in any of the previous posts that the issue of surveillance seems strangely reversed in the architecture of Larkhall? The officer's break room has a glass window (so all the prisoners can see in), while the cells have full walls and doors. Sure, the cell doors have peepholes etc, but that requires intentional surveillance in close proximity.
Was Larkhall originally designed/intended to be a prison? It's an incredibly old building, it certainly predates any ideas around designing "ideal" prison spaces. The prison officials, like any set of bureaucrats, have to work with what they're given, & yeah, it's about as far from optimal as possible--to the point where, as Abzug notes, the screws almost are as easily viewed as the cons. Of course, the officers & officials have the keys, can come & go as they please, etc. But yes, the biggest point about this aspect of surveillance is how difficult it is to enforce w/o making it two-way.
ekny - June 2, 2006 03:43 AM (GMT)
richard Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:57 am
Interesting point, ekny. as far as I understand it, prisons like Wandsworth and Holloway were purpose built Victorian constructions but they may have been built according to specifications of a different era. I've been round Oxford prison (which was used for the exterior shots in Series 1 3 and a bit of Series 4) and you get the feeling that it tends towards the look of a medieval castle in appearance. There might be connotations of authority in this without practically allowing for the possibilities of 100% surveillance of the clearly described Panoptican- especially allowing the PO room to be more observed upon than observing.
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:08 am
ekny, there has been a prison on the Oxford Castle site since 1166, but the "modern" blocks were built to the specifications demanded by Victorian prison reformers in the late 18th/early 19th century, which would have been a panopticon. C wing was completed in 1785, but was still in use in the 20th century and housed several infamous inmates, including for a while some of the Great Train robbers. It became HMP Oxford in 1888 and was only closed in 1996, as these old Victorian model prisons are now considered difficult to run.
Rather interestingly, since the 1870's the bodies of people hanged there were buried in unmarked graves in those gardens which we see Nikki pottering around in. Just as well she didn't dig too deep! 8 people were hanged there in the 20th century, the last hanging being in 1952. (In preceding centuries it would appear that the bodies of people who were hanged, were taken for dissection by the Oxford University Medical School, and there are no records of where they were buried. They did however uncover a large number of skeletons which had clearly been used for medical research, while excavating for the underground parking area for the new hotel. These had just been dumped in unconsecrated ground in the area which was the moat surrounding the castle.)
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COOLUK1 Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:41 am
I saw a documentary years ago about the old Holloway women's prison. It was similar in design and age to Oxford Prison.
It was rebuilt in the 70 and 80's ...?? A modern building replaced it ..but it was SO badly designed that the old one was preferable. The staff and inmates agreed.
The new one doesn't have open landings etc and has lots of corridors with blinds spots where cameras couldn't get to..leading to attacks and wrong doings going on ..I think they had to do alterations and install CCTV everywhere..wallies.
Holloway
Originally constructed by the City of London and opened in 1852 as a mixed prison, became all female circa 1902. Completely rebuilt between 1971-1985 on the same site.
Address:
HMP and YOI Holloway
Parkhurst Road
London
N7 0NU
Tel: 020 7979 4400
Fax: 020 7979 4401
Governor: Tony Hassall
Operational Capacity: 478 as of 31st January 2006
Accommodation: Single rooms with some dormitory accommodation.
Reception Criteria: All adult and young offenders remanded or sentenced by the courts with the exception of Category A.
Regime: Regime includes both full-time and part-time education, Skills training workshops, British Industrial Cleaning Science BICS, gardens and painting. There is a fully integrated resettlement / induction strategy, which identifies individual needs and provides a structured approach for advice and guidance on such issues as housing, benefits, training and community volunteering programmes.
There are also offending behaviour programmes: FOR a change, SDP, Short duration Programme, anger management, assertion training, and domestic violence. Other programmes include desk top publishing and individual needs based work with a variety of partnership agencies. Other special features are welfare to work, Holloway befrienders scheme, listeners' schemes, programme development and community projects.
http://www.tchevalier.com/fallingangels/bc...mg/holloway.jpg
Interesting point, ekny. as far as I understand it, prisons like Wandsworth and Holloway were purpose built Victorian constructions but they may have been built according to specifications of a different era. I've been round Oxford prison (which was used for the exterior shots in Series 1 3 and a bit of Series 4) and you get the feeling that it tends towards the look of a medieval castle in appearance. There might be connotations of authority in this without practically allowing for the possibilities of 100% surveillance of the clearly described Panoptican- especially allowing the PO room to be more observed upon than observing.
_________________
Just Another Mad Bad Fan Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:08 am
ekny, there has been a prison on the Oxford Castle site since 1166, but the "modern" blocks were built to the specifications demanded by Victorian prison reformers in the late 18th/early 19th century, which would have been a panopticon. C wing was completed in 1785, but was still in use in the 20th century and housed several infamous inmates, including for a while some of the Great Train robbers. It became HMP Oxford in 1888 and was only closed in 1996, as these old Victorian model prisons are now considered difficult to run.
Rather interestingly, since the 1870's the bodies of people hanged there were buried in unmarked graves in those gardens which we see Nikki pottering around in. Just as well she didn't dig too deep! 8 people were hanged there in the 20th century, the last hanging being in 1952. (In preceding centuries it would appear that the bodies of people who were hanged, were taken for dissection by the Oxford University Medical School, and there are no records of where they were buried. They did however uncover a large number of skeletons which had clearly been used for medical research, while excavating for the underground parking area for the new hotel. These had just been dumped in unconsecrated ground in the area which was the moat surrounding the castle.)
_________________
COOLUK1 Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:41 am
I saw a documentary years ago about the old Holloway women's prison. It was similar in design and age to Oxford Prison.
It was rebuilt in the 70 and 80's ...?? A modern building replaced it ..but it was SO badly designed that the old one was preferable. The staff and inmates agreed.
The new one doesn't have open landings etc and has lots of corridors with blinds spots where cameras couldn't get to..leading to attacks and wrong doings going on ..I think they had to do alterations and install CCTV everywhere..wallies.
Holloway
Originally constructed by the City of London and opened in 1852 as a mixed prison, became all female circa 1902. Completely rebuilt between 1971-1985 on the same site.
Address:
HMP and YOI Holloway
Parkhurst Road
London
N7 0NU
Tel: 020 7979 4400
Fax: 020 7979 4401
Governor: Tony Hassall
Operational Capacity: 478 as of 31st January 2006
Accommodation: Single rooms with some dormitory accommodation.
Reception Criteria: All adult and young offenders remanded or sentenced by the courts with the exception of Category A.
Regime: Regime includes both full-time and part-time education, Skills training workshops, British Industrial Cleaning Science BICS, gardens and painting. There is a fully integrated resettlement / induction strategy, which identifies individual needs and provides a structured approach for advice and guidance on such issues as housing, benefits, training and community volunteering programmes.
There are also offending behaviour programmes: FOR a change, SDP, Short duration Programme, anger management, assertion training, and domestic violence. Other programmes include desk top publishing and individual needs based work with a variety of partnership agencies. Other special features are welfare to work, Holloway befrienders scheme, listeners' schemes, programme development and community projects.
http://www.tchevalier.com/fallingangels/bc...mg/holloway.jpg
ekny - June 2, 2006 03:45 AM (GMT)
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ekny - June 2, 2006 03:47 AM (GMT)
[more of CoolUK1's images]