abzug PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:46 pm

I'm not hating season 4
So last night I finally started watching season 4, and I have to say, I'm really enjoying it. Which suprised the hell out of me. I've watched four episodes so far, and I've found that since I know Helen and Nikki aren't going to show up, I can just let them go and enjoy the new and old characters. Yvonne is fantastic this season--its great to see her win out over the PBG. And I was thrilled when Denny returned--just had a big grin on my face. Shaz has suddenly got a brain in her head, as well as a vocabulary, so that seems a bit of a stretch (I can imagine she was beaten by her stepfather, but not that she is able to talk about it with Di in such a self-aware and evolved way).

I particularly loved Karen in the first episode, because she was in Fenner-suspicion mode, and when that woman is on a rampage, there are few who can top her (Helen Stewart may be the only one!). Its a little frustrating that he managed to come out on top, but of course I'm not surprised. The most amusing moment was probably when he's spewing all his lies to try to explain away her suspicions, and he tells her about Helen and Nikki, and THAT is the one thing she doesn't believe! The one bit of truth and she can't even conceive it. What a delicious irony. And to show how fickle my affections are, I was also glad that Karen finally wound up taking some of the blame for the things going wrong on the wing--Helen sure suffered for everything little thing that went wrong when she was wing governor, and Karen never did, so it seems only fair.

Verdict's still out on Cassie and Roisin, since I've only seen one of their episodes. The actress who plays Roisin doesn't seem very good, but they are both hot, so I'm not complaining just yet. It was actually a lovely moment when they were lying in their bunks and Roisin closes her eyes and tells Cassie to get into bed with her. And it made Cassie's stinging reply even more cutting.

I think this just proves I'm always a loyalist to shows I like. Seven seasons of LA Law, nine seasons of The X-Files, seven seasons of Buffy. I always stick with a show til the bitter end. I think the only one I ever dropped was ER--I just couldn't take it any more.

_________________

n&haddict PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:57 pm

LOL.....I started watching Series 4 last night too. Watched first four episodes also and I've been enjoying it.

_________________

Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:58 pm

I quite enjoyed it myself...I have managed to acquire and make through the end of series 6!!!! Quite the accomplishment for an american innit? Wink

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Have other people found its a bit more relaxing to watch without the Helen & Nikki angst? I mean, its that angst which got me to this board, and which inspires me to spend so much time thinking and writing about the show, so I wouldn't trade it for the world. But I don't think I could take it for seven seasons. It would just be too much to bear, caring so much about two characters and their relationship. With the characters that remain, I care, but not overwhelmingly so--just enough to keep me very interested and entertained.

And how weird is the new exterior set?! They did ok with the shots of the prison itself, but the garden is just not even close. I mean, if I were a normal viewer and didn't know they had built a new exterior set, I'd be like, what the f***?

_________________

tammi PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:19 pm

How did you manage to get Season 4. I'm from Canada and I can't even get Season 2 on DVD.

As for the actresses who play Cassie & Roisin, I think you should know a few facts.

The actress who plays Cassie actually played Linda Henry's daughter on the British Soap Opera Eastenders several years back, so it's kind of a reunion for the two.

Also, the actress who plays Roisin is more of a musical actress. She's been in London Productions of Jesus Christ Superstar, Evita and also played the mother Donna in "Mamma Mia" in fact, if you get the ABBA Documentary, you will see her in the Bonus Features.

However, I really like them on the show and I'm sure you'll like them too.

_________________

HuskiesFan PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:23 pm

Series 4
I also have been watching the 4th series. I'm the first 14 epiodes now and although N & H aren't in it, I'm enjoying it for the most part. I won't elaborate on the few points that I don't care about because I won't spoil it for those of you who are behind me. I have all of the series rhrough 6, but every once in awhile I enjoy a H & N refreshing fix, so I go back.

_________________

notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:31 pm

I think series 4 was very good.
Very strong storylines, I have really enjoyed it.
You do have to get over the dissapointment of not seeing N&H anymore, but once you have done that, it is very watchable.

_________________

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:15 pm

Hi Abzug ...Yvonne and Karen are good.

Quite of few people me included found the actress who plays Roisin miscast..she's had a great career in the West End on stage but she never seemed to settle into her role in BG...imo

Tammi~~

If you have a multi region DVD player you can order the Region 2 UK DVDs which is what some folk have done.

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:14 pm

tammi wrote:
Also, the actress who plays Roisin is more of a musical actress. She's been in London Productions of Jesus Christ Superstar, Evita and also played the mother Donna in "Mamma Mia" in fact, if you get the ABBA Documentary, you will see her in the Bonus Features.

I can totally see her as Donna, actually, so that makes a lot of sense. Many stage actresses, particularly the musical theatre ones, aren't great on tv or film. Not subtle enough, better at performing than reacting. That said, most tv and film actors are terrible on stage, at least in the US, so I would say the talents are just different, not that one is better than the other.

_________________

richard PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:08 pm

Series 4
I'm glad that you're enjoying Series 4, Abzug. The series does move along very nicely, especially Karen's role. A bit of background on the actress who played Roisin is that she was one of the original cast of Andrew Lloyd Webber's Evita.

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:13 pm

richard wrote:
I'm glad that you're enjoying Series 4, Abzug. The series does move along very nicely, especially Karen's role. A bit of background on the actress who played Roisin is that she was one of the original cast of Andrew Lloyd Webber's Evita.

Wow, how old is that actress?! Evita came out in the late 1970s!

I am enjoying Karen quite a bit, although it does feel like Helen Stewart, redux. But she coasted along with the men for long enough--in the feminist world of Bad Girls, her privileges were temporary, to be taken away whenever the patriarchy decided she was getting in their way. I don't think it was an accident that when she started to get aggressively suspicious of Fenner, she got all her power taken away.

_________________

richard PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:42 am

If I remember right, Siobhan McCarthy who plays Roisin was only 19 when she was in Evita (and with a fine singing voice, judging from the album I have of the show)
You're right that while Stubberfield was on the scene, Karen had some protection and the combination of Grayling and Fenner worked against her but they later fall out and Karen has a long way to go is operating with her back against the wall in the same way that Helen did and well worth watching.

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 2:13 pm

richard wrote:
If I remember right, Siobhan McCarthy who plays Roisin was only 19 when she was in Evita (and with a fine singing voice, judging from the album I have of the show)

Ah, so she played the Mistress? She got one of the best songs in the show, imo. I've only got the Bwy recording, so I've never heard the London cast.

I've been thinking more about Cassie and Roisin, now that I've seen more of their episodes. They are a tough couple to like, primarily because we see so few moments between them that are loving or affectionate or playful or anything. But I do think the thematic issues which the writers are addressing with this couple are very interesting, primarily the issue of freedom. Cassie brings up this idea that they can be free to be themselves in prison, because they won't have to hide their relationship--they are in an environment where lesbian relationships are accepted and somewhat the norm, and Roisin doesn't have anyone to hide from.

But Roisin isn't open to this, and in some ways that's the crux of her problem--she never allows herself to be free. Not in her life on the outside (where she clearly wasn't happy with her husband, but stayed with him anyway), and not in her life on the inside. She's so preoccupied with what she doesn't have (ie her kids) that she can't enjoy what she does have (the chance to fully explore her relationship with Cassie). Instead, she confines herself even further by falling into a drug addiction, which in the end is just another form of imprisonment. There's this scene where Cassie tells Roisin she has to make a choice, to either get used to life in prison and embrace it (I'm paraphrasing) or to suffer it and feel oppressed by it. The important thing is that there IS a choice, and Roisin is free to make it.

This of course is continuing a theme they've been exploring since the beginning of the show, of how much we imprison ourselves with our own emotional and psychological baggage, and how much we allow ourselves to feel as free as possible, no matter how confining our circumstances.

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:38 pm

One other thing about Cassie and Roisin. I'm already halfway through the season and they haven't shown them kissing yet. What's up with that? I mean, their relationship is clearly sexual, we see them hold eachother and share a bed. And yet, no kissing. None from Shaz and Denny either. Its almost like the network told the show no more lesbian kisses. Which is beyond annoying, because I always thought Bad Girls did an amazing job of normalizing the same-sex kisses--they didn't make them a Big Deal, they didn't have only one a season, they just had characters kiss when it made sense for them to kiss.

Perhaps there is going to be a payoff, in that Cassie and Roisin will in some way learn to love eachother better by the end of the season, and we'll be granted a loving kiss at that point. But its still a bit troubling....

_________________

richard PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:50 pm

I get your point, Abzug, about Grayling being the only one to use Helen's report but events have unfolded (and there is more to follow) when Karen reverts to being Fenner's natural opponent for moral reasons rather than personal ones.
Your post about Cassie and Roisin has hit the mark and is way more insightful in previous posts writing them off as unlikeable. Another version of your very interesting point is that in emotional / statial terms they are the exact inversion of Helen and Nikki. While Helen and Nikki are separated by prison bars, etc, emotionally they are together most of the time. Cassie and Roisin by contrast are physically together (sharing same cell and bed if they chose) but emotionally at odds with each other. Another factor is Roisin's pronounced Irish guilt. I've found the chunk on the Shed Q and A on Series 4 dealing with these comparisons/ contrasts as follows.
"The only point of comparison between H+N and R+C is that they are both involved in problematic lesbian relationships, but R+C were certainly not intended as a direct replacement. Whereas Helen and Nikki could be seen as soulmates, Roisin and Cassie are divided on every front - age, experience, life-style, children. What fascinated us was the idea of two people who were really only at the beginning of an affair, suddenly finding themselves "living together" in prison and forced to make decisions they could otherwise have skirted for months - years - on the outside. We also wanted to do a story about a prisoner who was made drug dependent by the misery of imprisonment, as many women, especially mothers, are."

I'd be very much interested to see what you and others say about the finale in all aspects of the series.

_________________

ekny PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:34 pm

abzug wrote:
One other thing about Cassie and Roisin. I'm already halfway through the season and they haven't shown them kissing yet. What's up with that?


Far as I can recall, Denny & Shaz only share 1 kiss, ditto C&R (maybe 2); they're not especially moving or well done so frankly I was grateful--but that's me. The woman who plays Kris (sp?) does a particularly cringeworthy kiss with another inmate at one point. In general--especially with "lesbian" kisses, it would seem straight actors have some inherent block against selling a kiss. You'd think if they were good enough & committed enough to the role they'd make some effort to look vaguely convincing but it seems almost the opposite to me. There's a kiss later on that looks so awful I can't imagine why they didn't refilm it. I don't know, I waffle between being pissed that they even bother when they're so bad, & pissed they don't bother more.

Of course since the odds of them coming anywhere near the conviction with which our two birds conveyed their feelings is nil....

_________________

hetane PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 10:37 pm

EKNY "Of course the odds of them coming anywhere near the conviction with which our two birds conveyed their feelings is nil.."

SIGH, so true, EKNY, S&M where awsome in that regard (Oh, hell in every regard, eh?), that is their believability as far as the two being in love... did I already SIGH? oh, well, SIGH...

Now I have to go to ebay and get season four. I do like Karen and Yvonne. Actually, I like all the girls. I MISS DOCKLEY!!! I'm sorry, but she was a regular crack-up, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant IMO. Uh, Debra Stevenson or however she spells her name.

And, Richard, I hope I can find the London version of EVITA, one of Lloyd-Weber's early works when I still liked his stuff. Before he went from edgy to on-and-on and on musicals (which by-the-way my partner loves. It's a bit contentious in our household, heehee, early Lloyd Weber verses later Lloyd Weber.) Anyway would be fun to hear the Roisin actress sing.

_________________

stunning_simone PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 10:38 pm

i love series 4 well i think that cassie and roison are both hot

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 2:38 am

hetane wrote:
And, Richard, I hope I can find the London version of EVITA, one of Lloyd-Weber's early works when I still liked his stuff. Before he went from edgy to on-and-on and on musicals (which by-the-way my partner loves. It's a bit contentious in our household, heehee, early Lloyd Weber verses later Lloyd Weber.)

Couldn't agree more! Joseph and Evita are the only ALW musicals I can stomach. Oh, yeah, I don't mind Sunset Boulevard, but I think that's because Judy Kuhn (my fave bway singer of all time) is on the cast recording. But luckily my gf agrees with me on this one--I couldn't possibly tolerate his crap from the 1980s playing in our apartment.

_________________

filbertfox PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:24 am

Re: I'm Not Hating Season 4
tammi wrote:
The actress who plays Cassie actually played Linda Henry's daughter on the British Soap Opera Eastenders several years back, so it's kind of a reunion for the two.


Actually, Linda's onscreen daughter in Eastenders was played by Nicola Stapleton who plays Janine Nebeski in BG7...

I really, really tried to let that one go but couldn't...sorry Tammi!!!

Abzug...thanks for easing my mind...I can sleep now....zzzzzzzzzzz!!
_________________

ceridwyn2 PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:31 am

Quote:
Filbertfox wrote:
Actually, Linda's onscreen daughter in Eastenders was played by Nicola Stapleton who plays Janine Nebeski in BG7...


And it was Nicola Stapleton who was in The Young Person's Guide to Becoming A Rock Star with Simone Lahbib in 1998.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And by the way, the fact that she and I have the same last name is totally coincidental. :)

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:38 am

filbertfox wrote:
Abzug...thanks for easing my mind...I can sleep now....zzzzzzzzzzz!!

Yeah, well, you're lucky, because if I hadn't liked season 4, then you would have needed to watch your back girl! ;-)

I do agree its gotten rather bleak now in the middle though. I've watched through episode 10, and am SO glad Karen has finally seen the light when it comes to Fenner. Interesting contrast with Crystal also losing her faith (as an atheist I would say they both came to their senses, but a religious person might disagree with me making that parallel).

The handling of the sexual assault was incredibly disturbing, but obviously it was meant to be. The worst part was how the men bonded together to thwart Karen's charge, all to preserve their own status/power. I mean, the idea that Neal called his friend at the police force to get them to drop the case is just so sickening, but I'm sure it actually happens all the time. There was certainly an interesting parallel with Helen's handling of her own assault (the scene between Karen and Mark was very similar to the one between Helen and Nikki), and sadly its clear that Helen was right--going to Stubberfield wouldn't have done any good at all. But seriously, what kind of work place doesn't fire a man when two colleagues accuse him of sexual assault?!

Now, I think I finally figured out Cassie and Roisin. It took a lot of contemplation, because the two actresses aren't very good. Luckily they are very attractive, and their chemistry isn't bad, otherwise I'd really be disliking this plot line. I was watching last night and thinking to myself, Cassie is like Jeckyl and Hyde! She's calling Roisin's mother-in-law, she's telling Roisin to tell her husband what he wants to hear, and then she's blaming Roisin for doing so, and essentially dumping her! WTF?

But then I realized that with better actresses we would have seen the underlying emotion and motivation which is in the script's subtext: Cassie wants Roisin to be happy in prison because they get to be together. The fact that Roisin is so miserable is a constant rejection in Cassie's mind, and aggravates her guilt at getting Roisin involved in the first place. No wonder she refuses to make an emotional commitment to Roisin: even though Roisin SAYS she loves her, all of her actions and behavior suggest otherwise, and Cassie clearly takes the strategy of avoiding hurt and rejection at all costs.

Its tough though, because its VERY hard to root for these two when they can't even manage to communicate effectively with eachother. It makes me even more impressed with how much MJ and SL (I just typed ML and SJ--hah!) brought to the roles in terms of internal conflict and emotional complexity. Given how underwritten Bad Girls is in general, you need very intelligent and talented actresses to be able to convey everything going on beneath the deceptively simple and straightforward lines.

_________________

richard PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:26 pm

Couldn't agree with you more, Abzug, about the rape scene. i hadn't thought of the parallel reaction to the events between Nikki and Mark except that Mark's reaction was portrayed much more. The crime was definitely that of rape but the terrifying thing was that it was written in such a way that Fenner believed that he was not guilty, no matter how guilty he was. The 'morning' after was very memorable for the memory of Helen's voice saying that she was 'too close to the situation.'
Regarding Cassie and Roisin, the only thing I could add to your excellent points is that I felt that their non communication was the point of the storyline in contrast to the way that Helen and Nikki 'got each other.' There is an absolute clash as Cassie sees only Roisin in the frame of their relationship while Roisin sees her children and cannot decide between Aiden (by virtue of being the children's father) and / or Cassie and this mismatch is what propels their relationship.

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 2:32 pm

richard wrote:
The crime was definitely that of rape but the terrifying thing was that it was written in such a way that Fenner believed that he was not guilty, no matter how guilty he was.

I think this is true of many cases of date rape, and very realistic for these two characters. But of course, its only a certain kind of man who could make this mistake and think the sex was consensual--the kind of man who would sexually assault a female colleague in the office, and sexually exploit a prisoner who he is supposed to protect.

Its also been very interesting to see how they use Helen throughout this whole plotline. The continued reference to her report which we thought would never come to light after Karen tore it apart, Helen's voice echoing in Karen's head, but far too late for both Karen and for Helen. It does make me ache for what might have been, if these two had been able to work together on this issue. Instead, we get the opposite, the dark side of the force (Grayling and Fenner) conspiring to repress the women's resistance, rather than the women working together to repress the institutionalized male abuse. Painful.

I completely agree that Cassie and Roisin's inability to communicate is the crux of their dilemma, and a definite contrast with Helen and Nikki. I guess I just wish I could see more of the attraction or emotional connection between the two of them, so I could understand what brought them together in the first place, despite their fundamental communication/understanding problems.

_________________

richard PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 2:38 pm

I absolutely agree about Helen and Karen especially in one of the last occasions when they acted together, they got rid of Dr No No pretty effortlessly. It is 'off scene' but it is interesting to try and imagine the discussion with Stubberfield and that they overrode the 'Old Boy's network.'
Regarding Roisin and Cassie, I'd be interested to read your thoughts of them at the end of the series which, by your rate of progress, will be very soon. Smile

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:13 pm

richard wrote:
Regarding Roisin and Cassie, I'd be interested to read your thoughts of them at the end of the series which, by your rate of progress, will be very soon. Smile

I know, you'd think I was a tv addict or somethin'. Confused Heck, I only watched two episodes yesterday, so that's not so bad. But the eight I watched over the weekend did feel a little excessive. I just don't have great will-power when it comes to things like this....If I recall correctly I watched all of season 3 in about 3 days, and that was during the week when I was also going to work! Didn't sleep much, obviously.

_________________

badgirlnuts PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:10 pm

Hi, Did anybody notice that for an attractive woman Roisin has a very pedestrian looking family, that doesn't jive to me and her husband is so mean.

_________________

ekny PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:16 pm

badgirlnuts wrote:
Hi, Did anybody notice that for an attractive woman Roisin has a very pedestrian looking family, that doesn't jive to me and her husband is so mean.


Only if you think R's attractive in the first place.

_________________

silverballnz PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:19 pm

Hi ekny,
Have to agree with you Rosin is not my cup of tea.
Cheers Chris.

_________________

silverballnz PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:20 pm

x

badgirlnuts PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:43 pm

Hi, I'm not personally attracted to her,apart from Mandana Jones and Nigella Lawson, I'm indifferent to other women.

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:45 pm

ekny wrote:
Only if you think R's attractive in the first place.

Interesting. Until I read these posts, I didn't think it was debateable--I thought she was objectively attractive (dark hair, big blue eyes, good body), not just attractive as a matter of opinion. She's a bit haggard looking, but that's more about the character's trials and tribulations.

_____________

richard PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:02 pm

Hi Abzug. I suppose I've watched one episode of BG as week as it unfolds and haven't been in the position of a whole series on DVd just waiting to be watched. To blast through those many episodes on one go is a perfectly natural enthusiasm that is par for the course in BG circles. Anything else is definitelyabnormal.
Coming back to Roisin, I suppose that it comes down to personality as Roisin's Irish guilt ridden personality might be a bit of a turn off while Nikki's unashamed tenderness is anything but. Hope this makes sense.

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:40 pm

richard wrote:
To blast through those many episodes on one go is a perfectly natural enthusiasm that is par for the course in BG circles. Anything else is definitelyabnormal.

Thanks--I feel so much better. Wink

Its interesting though, because I occasionally wonder how I would experience and interpret the show if I had to absorb it in weekly one-episode doses. Much more time to think and review each episode on its own, but harder to conceive of a season as a single entity. I experimented with this a little bit this winter/early spring when I was watching each week on BBC-A, and I didn't touch my dvds. I was much more thoughtful and analytic about each episode, figuring out how it was put together, why it worked, how different aspects of the episode related thematically etc. When I watch in chunks as I am doing now, my perspective is more high-level, and I am sure there are many many things I don't notice.

Quote:
Coming back to Roisin, I suppose that it comes down to personality as Roisin's Irish guilt ridden personality might be a bit of a turn off while Nikki's unashamed tenderness is anything but.

Nikki's hostile jealousy might also be a turnoff though, eh? Wink But I guess the guilt thing is just eminently familiar to me--I'm a NY Jew, after all, and we're the experts! Roisin's whole "I did what you wanted me to do; I'm going to stay in prison; I'm choosing you over my kids" sounded just like the kind of thing my mom would say.
_____________

abzug PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:25 pm

Oh, and one other thing. What's up with the use of "twat" as an insult in season 4?! Its like every other sentence or something. I don't recall it being used with any frequency in previous seasons, other than by Zandra. But now they've got Fenner using it, along with everyone else, and to my ears it just sounds weird. Was there some ITV censorship going on or something?

_____________

richard PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:31 pm

I'll have to check this one out as I'd not spotted this, abzug. This all goes to show that posters your side of the pond have a truly impressive enthusiasm and analytical ability and eye for detail which I am thoroughly enjoying. And yes, the 'guilt trip' is a fearsome burden to have dumped on you.

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:34 am

Ugh. I just watched the two episodes where Sylvia is wing gov, and I've got to say, they were very hard to sit through. Its like a contest this season for who is the most immoral character. Early on it was Fenner, then Grayling took the lead, but Sylvia I think wins the contest. The problem with her is that she doesn't even recognize that she's acting so amorally. At least when Fenner and Grayling do it, they know they are doing something bad/evil, but they've got their reasons (power, revenge etc). Sylvia simply doesn't see the prisoners as having any moral standing as human beings. Very very difficult to stomach.

It was the first time since I started watching season 4 where I would have given anything for Helen to come back. I mean, when she and Karen were in charge, Fenner may have been fucking around with them, creating evil wherever he went, but you knew that two decent moral human beings were doing the best they could. Now all we've got is Karen and Mark (and no more Mark from what I can tell), and Karen doesn't seem to care much about taking responsibility.

At least it appears Yvonne talked some sense into Cassie. And no one could have been more shocked than I at how much sympathy I felt for Maxi Purvis. Good job by the actress I think--they didn't give her a lot of material, but she made an impact with it.

_____________

ekny PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:09 am

abzug wrote:
And no one could have been more shocked than I at how much sympathy I felt for Maxi Purvis. Good job by the actress I think--they didn't give her a lot of material, but she made an impact with it.


(Spoilers for those who haven't seen S4, although I'll try to be Oblique! ;) )

I thought the business with Maxi was really well-done. At first I was like, what the--! Where'd *that* come from, because we (I) hate her so much it's like, fine, she's slouching around in the background, moping, keeping her mouth shut, GOOD. Then after the youknowwhat, I thought, gawd, that was kind of brilliant really--because that's exactly the way such things happen. No one's seeing what's right in front of them, no one cares, so... poof, all gone. And to do it with her, in particular, so once again, Shed forces me to empathize (albeit after the fact) with a character I hated, & even (after the fact) to feel I understood her a little better... impressive. That's one of the things that kept me watching--Shed could still pull out the stops, & here--so quietly. Nice.

_____________

richard PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:21 am

I agree that the way that Shed wrote Maxi's crack up was very unobtrusively done, especially her 'face saving' decision to fight Shaz instead of Al. I'm not sure if you will have seen it yet but there is backstory on Maxi which makes an awful lot of sense.
I agree also that Bodybag's spell as wing governor is especially cringeworthy so that even Grayling had to tell her that it was 'not an option' to leave the prisoners locked up.

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 12:33 pm

I wrote my previous post in this thread right before I went to sleep, and I have to admit I was actually crying in bed, because I was finding everything happening on the show to be so upsetting. In particular, this season seems to originate so much evil with the guards, and not with the prisoners. Which is a big contrast to past seasons where we've had really evil prisoners (Shell in S1, Renee Williams, the Peckham girls, etc etc). This season Yvonne's comment to Cassie that she shouldn't do anything which promotes strife among the prisoners is very telling. In a way, it makes them all seem even more victimized, because everything they are suffering is external (ie from the guards, the governors, policy makers etc) and not internal (ie from fellow prisoners etc).

But I understand a new character is going to be showing up who is a real evil wretch....

Another question: is Bodybag the reason Shaz got shipped out? Meaning, was it a revenge tactic to punish Denny? It seemed to be done at least semi-secretly.... But I guess I'll find out when I watch the next ep.

_____________

richard PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:43 pm

I can understand your sentiments, abzug. You get the feeling that the forces for good more or less balenced out the forces for evil up to series 3 and this episode, the bad guys are on the loose. I can understand Karen's reluctance to be wing governor again after being pushed out last time. Up till Series 3, the balence amongst the prison officers were old fashioned reactionaries and progressive liberals and Grayling wants to introduce changes, not for the benefit of prison officers and prisoners alike, as the 'third corner.' One point to pick up on is Roisin's force of character in getting Yvonne to intervene in the fight between Shaz and Maxi and her outburst was absolutely spot on.
I would be interested when you come to the new prisoner.

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:59 pm

richard wrote:
One point to pick up on is Roisin's force of character in getting Yvonne to intervene in the fight between Shaz and Maxi and her outburst was absolutely spot on.

I noticed this and was glad they used her character in this way. Now that Nikki is gone, Yvonne no longer has a strong, emotionally-mature ally. She's got an emotionally-mature ally in Babs, but Nikki had influence and broad concern for others' well-being. It makes sense to have Roisin fill this void, even if her only power is to influence Yvonne.

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 2:15 am

Oh my. The actress playing Snowball has got to be the worst actress I have ever seen on this show. I mean, she was positively robotic when she was doing an American accent. She was a little better when she could speak normally. I fear for her performance in Bad Girls The Musical--I just have no idea in hell how she could pull off playing Shell with any effectiveness at all.

And thank GOD Bodybag's evil reign of terror seems to be over. Or, semi-over. I'm three episodes from the end, and Grayling seems to have developed a soul with the whole Denny situation. But Sylvia has definitely proven herself to be the most vile screw at Larkhall. Even Fenner at his absolute worst didn't seem this evil to me.

OK, now, lets talk about Grayling vs Helen and being out. I think this whole closeted-gay-man plotline is no accident. Its like the yin to Helen's yang. Or her doppelganger. In a way, it makes her seem even more heroic than she did at the time--for her commitment to be with Nikki in season 2, and for her willingness to live an open and authentic life with Nikki at the end of season 3. In the context of Grayling's concern that being openly gay and the head of a prison are mutually exclusive, Helen's intention to combine them both (at least for the few weeks when she was the number one and hadn't dumped Nikki on her ass) is very impressive.

_____________

ekny PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:05 pm

abzug wrote:
I guess the guilt thing is just eminently familiar to me--I'm a NY Jew, after all, and we're the experts! Roisin's whole "I did what you wanted me to do; I'm going to stay in prison; I'm choosing you over my kids" sounded just like the kind of thing my mom would say.


I don't know how I missed this bit first time around. I've always thought Catholics & Jews have some funny things in common. My theory is: Wasps do Shame; Catholics & Jews do Guilt. They're actually pretty different responses. Anyway--just gave me a grin, this whole exchange. --e


eta:

>>OK, now, lets talk about Grayling vs Helen and being out. I think this whole closeted-gay-man plotline is no accident. Its like the yin to Helen's yang. Or her doppelganger. In a way, it makes her seem even more heroic than she did at the time--for her commitment to be with Nikki in season 2, and for her willingness to live an open and authentic life with Nikki at the end of season 3. In the context of Grayling's concern that being openly gay and the head of a prison are mutually exclusive, Helen's intention to combine them both (at least for the few weeks when she was the number one and hadn't dumped Nikki on her ass) is very impressive.

I agree with all of this & only wanted to add, you probably haven't gotten right up to the end of S4 yet with G's Evil Act. I've always felt this is one of the very few places Shed might have allowed politics & a specific agenda to overtake art--iow, their wish to show just how damaging the closet is, on all levels, is pretty much Grayling's raison d’être. My issue with the drug thing isn't that it's OTT/not-credible--this is drama--but rather that it felt unmotivated. In S5 (not really a spoiler) we see G's comfortable enough to go to bars, pick up guys, so there's no self-image problem there--at least, not enough of one to make his need to have a leg over Fenner make much sense. Maybe it's just a gay man's version of the Impossible Fenner Dream--if I could just Have Him this once, surely he'd see how great we'd be together--which is, admittedly, a fetish I'm not sure I'll ever be able to acquire.

_____________

richard PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:27 pm

Your point about Yvonne missing nikki is spot on, abzug, and is neatly shown in Yvonne's farewell to Nikki at the end of series 3 when, despite her own intense feelings, she was incredibly generous to Nikki.
I freely confess as a dumb Brit when it comes to American accents that Snowball's 'version' of it didn't jar. I have thought that the actress scrapes her way through Bg in playing the part of an inmate who is a bad actress and can't see where the act ands and reality starts. Obviously she is loathsome and her take on a Lancashire accent is her appempt to be 'gritty and real.'

_____________

ekny PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:46 pm

richard wrote:
I have thought that the actress scrapes her way through Bg in playing the part of an inmate who is a bad actress and can't see where the act ands and reality starts. Obviously she is loathsome and her take on a Lancashire accent is her appempt to be 'gritty and real.'


I think your take on Snowball getting by by 'acting the bad actress acting' is an extraordinarily generous reflexive loophole. Every time I read it I'm almost convinced anew! ;)

I think she's German, but don't care enough to get my facts right if not. All I know is, her American 'accent' is pretty painful. As is her presence. Thank god she became increasingly mute as the role proceeded: maybe the screenwriters found her deliveries too wince-inducing to bear being able to go on? <gah!> --e

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:58 pm

ekny wrote:
I think she's German, but don't care enough to get my facts right if not. All I know is, her American 'accent' is pretty painful. As is her presence.

Strangely, the accent itself was quite accurate. Its just like she couldn't do the accent AND act at the same time, so every time she speaks American she speaks like a robot.

_____________

ekny PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:09 pm

abzug wrote:
ekny wrote:
I think she's German, but don't care enough to get my facts right if not. All I know is, her American 'accent' is pretty painful. As is her presence.

Strangely, the accent itself was quite accurate. Its just like she couldn't do the accent AND act at the same time, so every time she speaks American she speaks like a robot.


Mm, perhaps I was integrating my responses; just saw Tilda Swinton in Broken Flowers & it was again, to me, a case of overly-correct American accent: scrubbed clean of any inflection, something she was working a little too hard at. God knows I'm not comparing them in any way other than... both recently in mind.

Last edited by ekny on Thu May 04, 2006 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

_____________

richard PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:11 pm

The only thing I'd add to abzug's interesting contrast between Helen and Grayling is in Series 2 when Fenner makes threatening allusions about Helen's sexuality on her return to Larkhall, Helen comes right back at him with considerable courage. In contrast, Grayling is locked into public denial by the top level prison officer Masons. It also contrasts their distinctly different take on their ambitions.
Ekny raised the interesting question as to why Grayling pursues Fenner and the related drug thing and the only explanations I've ever come across is some kind of 'thrill of the chase' or that Grayling is attracted to Fenner because he is bad both of which lie outside my experience, hence the tentative nature of this post.

Last edited by richard on Thu May 04, 2006 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

_____________

ekny PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:15 pm

richard wrote:
Ekny raised the interesting question as to why Grayling pursues Fenner and the related drug thing and the only explanations I've ever come across is some kind of 'thrill of the chase' or that Grayling is attracted to Fenner because he is bad both of which lie outside my experience, hence the tentative nature of this post.


Nice contrast w/Helen there, Richard--as you & Abzug have noted, she comes across as increasingly heroic in contrast to Grayling especially in this light. I also found her handling of the Z-crisis vs Myers' about as strikingly different as could be (nothing to do w/sexuality, just another Gov-contrast-moment).

...As for your Grayling suggesting, yes, that was what I was trying to get at as well, just didn't want to overstate it since it's not my turf.


one of the contrasts S4+ offers--this may be part of what Abzug meant earlier although perhaps not--is that it's easier to think about the show structurally because a) my emotional investment is far less intense so I can stand back & compare & contrast, and B) I do feel the show changed after H & N made their exit; the plotlines often feel more schematic to me. It's actually useful from a big-pic pov; as I had no expectations at all having heard so much negative stuff about S4 etc., I find there's still plenty of material to keep me engaged, albeit differently. It's also (for me) a way to step back from the whole H/N thing (occasionally only) & refresh myself w/a different perspective. --e

_____________

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:40 pm

I didn't pay much attention to S4 at the time so have read these posts with great interest!!!

Grayling is a gay man in a woman's prison..little to tempt him except two or three male officers. I've always sbeen baffle as to why he was attracted to Fenner who is so obviously straight [and he's not my cup of tea at all...lol] and I can't see him appealing to any gay man...?

As has been said maybe he persued Fenner for the thrill of the chase, to get one over on him, a power thing. I find it hard to believe it was genuine sexual attraction...blah...??

Helen was a woman in a female prison who seemingly liked men...but there must have been a part of her that was [subconsciously] open to the f/f thang..was Nikki was the right person at the right time to sweep Helen off her feet...??

If Helen had been a female Governor in a male prison[Does anyone remember 'The Governor' with Janet McTeer] would she have been so suspetable to the charms of a male inmate ...I can't see it somehow.
..an officer maybe as her relationship with Sean was, as it turned out, less than satisfactory ??

_____________

ekny PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:54 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
As has been said maybe he persued Fenner for the thrill of the chase, to get one over on him, a power thing. I find it hard to believe it was genuine sexual attraction...blah...??


Hi Cool,

Totally agreed, if there's anyone who does find the man attractive perhaps they're just being quiet bec... well, it's sensible, really, seeing how much everyone loathes him. But no matter who I've spoken with or *what* their preference... they don't get it. Nobody seems to think he's attractive. He is physically big, however, & he is (sort of) powerful, and I do think those are traits a certain type of straight woman and a certain type of gay both both go for.

As for myself, am happy to have the mystery of his attraction remain so.


Quote:
Helen was a woman in a female prison who seemingly liked men...but there must have been a part of her that was [subconsciously] open to the f/f thang..was Nikki was the right person at the right time to sweep Helen off her feet...??


You know, I was having an offline conv w/a friend yesterday--discussing the other thread I'd started, this whole when-does/how-does Helen know Nikki's a lesbian--& they made an observation uncannily close to yours:

"...there is a chance that Helen sees Nikki as a lesbian because on [some] level she is looking for a lesbian, and this is the first one that her unconscious filter doesn't reject as unsuitable for emotional/physical reasons. And in the fact that she is unsuitable for social/professional reasons lies the tale."

--e

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:59 pm

richard wrote:
It also contrasts their distinctly different take on their ambitions.

Hiya Richard, I'd be interested to hear what you think the distinctions are between their ambitions. Do you mean that Helen seems to be a crusader, motivated by her desire to make things better for the prisoners, while Grayling is motivated solely by power and ambition?

ekny wrote:
one of the contrasts S4+ offers--this may be part of what Abzug meant earlier although perhaps not--is that it's easier to think about the show structurally because a) my emotional investment is far less intense so I can stand back & compare & contrast, and B) I do feel the show changed after H & N made their exit; the plotlines often feel more schematic to me. It's actually useful from a big-pic pov

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. The only downside is that its not as pleasurable to contemplate, so therefore I don't think things through quite as thoroughly. Like, the Karen-Mark rape confession scene strikes me as quite similar to the Helen-Nikki assault confession scene, but I don't care to rewatch the Karen-Mark scene again in order to really look at the dialogue, camera work, etc closely and uncover some of the subtext, even though I am sure it is there.

_____________

richard PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:17 pm

Hi, abzug. Youre pretty well right. Helen does have an ambitious drive in her partly as 'I'll show you' attitude to her father. If she won't be given validation as to who she is in a positive sense, she'll create it herself which isn't a million miles away from Nikki getting to co own her club. This is always, always strictly secondary as to what she can do with it to fight crusades that she believes in. All Grayling sees, as a product of a 'broken home' is power and position as something attractive in itself. He gets a kick out of manipulating others and misusing confidential information for his own selfish ends.
Nice to see you around, Cool. I borrowed the notion of 'the thrill of the chase' from a gay male poster on BGOL called Grayling Rules and, as you say, this is an area which is definitely not my territory and this is as far as I can get.

_____________

ekny PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:27 pm

abzug wrote:
Yes, this is exactly what I meant. The only downside is that its not as pleasurable to contemplate, so therefore I don't think things through quite as thoroughly.


Totally agreed to all. Makes me feel sloppy, but then, I focus pretty minutely on H/N when I want to, so... so there.

To be fair--I don't think it's entirely us all being lazy. I do think if this stuff was more compelling, & didn't feel like variations on a theme, we might focus harder.

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:27 pm

Love the new avatar, ekny. Can that really be a real sign?

[eta: Highway road sign read: "Welcome to Connecticut, home of George W. Bush. We apologize."]
_____________

abzug PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:43 pm

I love Roisin
I know in my first few posts on this thread I was bad-mouthing Roisin. Well, now that I am two episodes from the end of season 4, I've actually found myself growing quite attached to her. Its taken me a while to figure out why this is, but I think I've come up with an answer. Maybe not THE answer, but AN answer. Smile

Roisin is so emotionally raw. She's like a human being without any skin so all her nerve endings are exposed. She has no ability to manage her emotional experience, nor to communicate effectively about it. So she's like emotion at its essence. Despondent one minute, elated the next. Loyally in love with Cassie, hating Cassie because she's to blame for separating Roisin from her children. And rather than being self-aware about any of this, she just kind of blurts out whatever she's thinking or feeling at the moment. Which in a way makes her seem incoherent, but its really just about a total lack of processing of her emotions--they are just RAW. This became the most noticeable to me in her reaction to Grayling when he gives her the punishment for her drug offense (the scene where she's in his office)--she just starts laughing kind of maniacally, and responds sarcastically to everything he says. She just doesn't give a shit, and she lets it show.

And in the end, that's why she has to resort to drug use--she has no other tool for managing her emotional experience, and so in these extreme conditions in prison, drugs are her only coping mechanism. She feels everything too strongly to survive otherwise.

Now, some of this might be difficult to stomach without Roisin's very powerful nurturing side. This comes out in a number of her scenes with Cassie (although too few, I think), her reaction to her children, in her support of Crystal (after she returns from the MBU), and most importantly, in her urging Yvonne to intervene in the fight between Shaz and Maxi. Roisin has a very strong sense of responsibility, and while that is what motivates so much of her guilt, its also what makes her admirable.

I would also mention that Roisin seems to me to be the polar opposite of Helen. Helen was expert at managing her emotional reactions to things--she learned this in season 1. Roisin doesn't even try--its like its not even a tactic she's familiar with. In contrast, Helen can repress her emotions and control her communication with Nikki for all of season 3 because that's what she has to do to survive while Nikki is still in prison. Roisin would never be able to manage this. And therefore her experience of realizing she is a lesbian and wants to be with a woman is totally different from Helen's, much less in control, much more traumatic, and much harder to manage.

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:46 am

I finished!!!
And it only took five days. Smile

Well, this season has quite an ending, that's for sure. Seriously, Shaz deserved whatever she got. That girl doesn't have a brain in her head. Every time she and Denny were on screen together acting like idiots my girlfriend would mutter "dumb and dumberer"--and she was right!

But on a more positive note, I absolutely loved how Cassie and Roisin played out. Its the kind of ending I wished for Helen and Nikki--a reconciliation before the last minute, and a few episodes where we got to enjoy the two of them as a couple. I actually thought they were quite compelling together, once they stopped being so nasty to eachother. When Roisin got back from the muppet wing I got a little thrill at the scene where they reunited. It was flirtatious and loving and they hugged eachother like lovers. I also enjoyed their political activism at the end--they wound up quite the empowered little lesbians, didn't they?

And of course I like the political point the show is making--with lesbian couples consistently getting the most happy endings of anyone (other than maybe Crystal). Interestingly, though, its only the middle class lesbian couples who end up happy: Shaz and Denny obviously aren't so lucky.

Hmm, other thoughts...Fenner. Fenner. Sometimes you just gotta like the guy, like when he sicced Yvonne on Snowball. But I was sure glad he got blown by Neil. He deserved it, the fucker. I only wish he had been conscious enough to remember the feeling of violation--instead he seemed like he had almost enjoyed it.

Ok, that's all for now. I might actually think of something insightful to say by tomorrow. But then again, maybe not. It did have a good ending though, and I am looking forward to season 5. Smile

_____________

abzug PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:44 am

For my fourth post in a row: are there no interviews on the season 4 dvd? What the f***?

_____________

ekny PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:34 am

abzug wrote:
Love the new avatar, ekny. Can that really be a real sign?


I suspect not but we can always dream! ;)

(I have a great one for next week which is a real photo. Heh heh.)

ekny PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:41 am

Re: I love Roisin
abzug wrote:
In contrast, Helen can repress her emotions and control her communication with Nikki for all of season 3 because that's what she has to do to survive while Nikki is still in prison. Roisin would never be able to manage this. And therefore her experience of realizing she is a lesbian and wants to be with a woman is totally different from Helen's, much less in control, much more traumatic, and much harder to manage.


Augh, now I have to reconsider Rosin & give her the time of day when I rewatch, instead of just finding her horribly irritating! Drat. Sometimes you're too damn clever for my own good... this contrast w/H is very helpful. Quite interested to see what you make of ole sour-puss Kris.

abzug wrote:
might actually think of something insightful to say by tomorrow.


You already did. I see I can no longer be lazy about S4.

_________________

richard PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:09 am

Your last posts are fantastic, abzug, and your comparison/ contrast of Helen and Roisin is incredibly enlightening, especially the way you portray Roisin at the end. There's one thing that is of interest and that is that this is one occasion that Fenner has been completely taken for a ride, dare I say it, by Snowball and how wrong off the beaten track except, perhaps, in uncovering the gun. One comedy touch was of Fenner of picking on the 'wrong nun' when the search was out for Snowball and that she was nabbed by Karen at the prison gates. There is so much that has been pulled out of the show overall.
Hi ekny, I just love your latest photo - I feel sorry for the poor sods in Connecticit and the area that it contains.

_________________

richard PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:14 am

Re: message
richard wrote:
Your last posts are fantastic, abzug, and your comparison/ contrast of Helen and Roisin is incredibly enlightening, especially the way you portray Roisin at the end. There's one thing that is of interest and that is that this is one occasion that Fenner has been completely taken for a ride, dare I say it, by Snowball and how wrong off the beaten track except, perhaps, in uncovering the gun. One comedy touch was of Fenner of picking on the 'wrong nun' when the search was out for Snowball and that she was nabbed by Karen at the prison gates. There is so much that has been pulled out of the show overall.
Hi ekny, I just love your latest photo - I feel sorry for the poor sods in Connecticut and the area that it contains.

_________________

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:06 am

Abzug...Loved reading your Series 4 analysis...
I bought Series 4 on DVD as there was a wee bit of amateur film of S&M at the Carpenters Arms...but I've never actually rewatched the series since it was on TV..I may just do so now!!!

At the time people were pleased there was something on the S4 DVDs as *nothing* was mentioned about N&H in the show itself ..well barely a mention. ... but were quite cynical as to why a few minutes of S&M had been included on S4 DVDs.

Imagine the antisipation...As S4 was originally aired, folk waited and waited for even just a line or two about N&H..but got nothing.
I know Filbert really likes S4 but I think it caused quite a lot of hostile feelings towards S4 and Shed at the time..
And it took a while for some fans to be won over again...lol

S5 is better imo. S6 better still and S7 almost back on track!!

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:38 pm

richard wrote:
One comedy touch was of Fenner of picking on the 'wrong nun' when the search was out for Snowball and that she was nabbed by Karen at the prison gates.

I loved this moment, because it was a little nod to how women can see things so much more clearly than men. I guess b/c we don't think with our dicks. Smile Speaking of Karen, her insistence on the truth about the gun, not lying to cover up, was reminiscent of Helen. But it was the only empowered thing Karen did in the later half of the season. It was like she was so beyond caring, didn't want to fight the fight anymore. Which I guess is a realistic reaction to being raped, but I still wanted to see more fire.

COOLUK1 wrote:
Imagine the antisipation...As S4 was originally aired, folk waited and waited for even just a line or two about N&H..but got nothing. I know Filbert really likes S4 but I think it caused quite a lot of hostile feelings towards S4 and Shed at the time..

I had heard this before I watched season 4, so I was actually suprised at how MUCH Helen and Nikki were mentioned. Far more than any other characters who have left the show (who usually get no mention at all after they're gone). Helen in particular felt like a real presence to me in the whole situation with Fenner. Her allegations and her report came up again and again, both literally and thematically. And characters like Grayling and Roisin I think were created to be definite echoes or alternative-paths that we are meant to contrast with Helen's journey.

_________________

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:07 pm

Goes to show you then...I can't remember Nikki being mentioned at all and Helen only once or twice in passing...LOL

I really must rewatch it !!! Shocked

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:22 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
Goes to show you then...I can't remember Nikki being mentioned at all and Helen only once or twice in passing...LOL

I really must rewatch it !!! Shocked

Well, Nikki was mentioned three times in the first episode. First when Di talks to Karen about giving Shaz Nikki's old job. Then when Di talks to Shaz about the same subject matter. And then when Fenner tells Karen about Helen and Nikki's affair. After the first episode, I don't think Nikki was mentioned at all. Helen on the other hand was mentioned in at least half the episodes, I would say. Not in the last third of the season, but in the first two thirds.

The thing that's missing or that makes us feel the void more is that none of the remaining prisoners who were good friends with Nikki ever mention her. I mean, we know that Babs and Yvonne must be missing Nikki, and are probably in touch with her in some way, but no mention of it. And that's kind of troubling, because of the way the show has always emphasized the power of the relationships between the prisoners, and how transformative they are. So there should be some explicit continuing connection there.

Of course, we can always read the terrific (yet unfinished) fanfic "And Justice For All" if we care to see how Nikki maintained relationships with her fellow prisoners after getting out. How's the end of that one coming, midlander?

_________________

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:18 pm

Quote:
The thing that's missing or that makes us feel the void more is that none of the remaining prisoners who were good friends with Nikki ever mention her. I mean, we know that Babs and Yvonne must be missing Nikki, and are probably in touch with her in some way, but no mention of it. And that's kind of troubling, because of the way the show has always emphasized the power of the relationships between the prisoners, and how transformative they are. So there should be some explicit continuing connection there.


That must be what stuck in my mind..that fact that none of Nikki's *good* friends ever mentioned her, which soooooo didn't ring true.

Just a line from Babs to Yvonne saying '...had a letter from Nikki today blah blah blah ' ~ it would have taken seconds of screen time but made lots of viewers happy....and tied off a few ends.

Do I vaguely recollect Anne & Chad saying somewhere that they did write one or two scenes where Nikki was talked about amongst the inmates but due to time limitations they could not be included in the finished episodes...???

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:53 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
Do I vaguely recollect Anne & Chad saying somewhere that they did write one or two scenes where Nikki was talked about amongst the inmates but due to time limitations they could not be included in the finished episodes...???

I remember reading that too. Maybe it was in one of the Q and As or something? But yeah, it certainly would have been nice. In the end, its just hard to get over not having these two characters anymore, so however much they mentioned them, it wouldn't have been enough. We would have said "Why hasn't Nikki visited Babs?" or something like that. We still wonder why Helen wasn't at Zandra's funeral, right?

_________________

ekny PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:55 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
Just a line from Babs to Yvonne saying '...had a letter from Nikki today blah blah blah ' ~ it would have taken seconds of screen time but made lots of viewers happy....and tied off a few ends.

Do I vaguely recollect Anne & Chad saying somewhere that they did write one or two scenes where Nikki was talked about amongst the inmates but due to time limitations they could not be included in the finished episodes...???


Yup, they said it was a time-constraint issue during one of the later Q&As.

_________________

richard PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:39 pm

I checked out the Shed Series 4 Q and A and you are right, Cool and ekny, that references by other prisoners to Nikki were cut out of Series 4, especially in view of Nikki's specific promise to write to Shaz. This is what they say.

"We did script in references to characters such as Babs and Shaz getting postcards from Nikki (also confirming her success in her OU exams), but these were cut in the edit as a result of timing considerations, much to our great regret."

Karen's evolution in Series 4 is interesting as she wavers her way into opposition to Fenner and Series 5 will repay watching, abzug, as this is where she goes into proper opposition mode to Fenner and Grayling

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:11 pm

richard wrote:
Karen's evolution in Series 4 is interesting as she wavers her way into opposition to Fenner and Series 5 will repay watching, abzug, as this is where she goes into proper opposition mode to Fenner and Grayling

Oh, thank god! I can't wait. Her wishy-washy-ness was really bugging me. I mean, Fenner raped her and she still manages to carry on a civil conversation with him?! But I guess this is one of the emotional confusions of date rape--it is abuse committed by someone you are intimate with, so its not like the intimacy just vanishes because of the act of abuse and betrayal.

Speaking now, the day after, I am actually missing Cassie and Roisin. Just when they became a loving and likable couple, they're gone. Just like S3 with Helen and Nikki. Is this going to be a trend from now on?

_________________

COOLUK1 PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:32 pm

Series 5
BTW Abzug.....Series 5 is on it's way to you ..posted it Wednesday!

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:13 pm

Thought of another interesting contrast between Roisin and Cassie, and Helen and Nikki. Helen and Nikki were kept apart by the prison, while Roisin and Cassie were forced together. Given R&C's ambivalence about their relationship, being held together in the same prison, in the same CELL, with no hope of escape or release for at least three years--this was just as confining, insufferable and torturous as Helen and Nikki's experience of not being able to be together.

They are like mirror-image relationship tortures, in a way. I mean, who among us has not felt trapped in a relationship at some point or other? Or felt the desperation of wanting to be with someone who is not around or accessible.

Its just a hard shift for the viewers, because we've come off of three years where the idea of Helen and Nikki being locked up in a cell together every night would have almost been a dream come true. So its then hard to watch Cassie and Roisin and not be annoyed with them for finding that same situation so emotionally taxing.

_________________

sackville PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:38 pm

Series 7
I've watched up through season 6. I have to say season 6 took me awhile to get into. I'll be happy when season 7 is out in June so I can see the Fenner storyline close.

_________________

ekny PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:44 pm

abzug wrote:
Speaking of Karen, her insistence on the truth about the gun, not lying to cover up, was reminiscent of Helen. But it was the only empowered thing Karen did in the later half of the season. [...]


I am airlifting Abzug's comments (following) from the Claire King Autobiography to here because I felt my post was just too far off the subject of King's book to belong there & was basically just trying to find it a home. Hope here's ok... so; the following comments were Abzug to Hetane & I'd had this exchange off the board & forgotten I hadn't posted it here & um the sun, it was so bright, it was hard to make out the driver...

--

abzug wrote:
Oh, I agree its completely disappointing, and I hate that it happens between Helen and Karen. But I think the show is not taking the easy way out, but instead is making a point about (1) how powerful women can be when they work together, and (2) how many factors prevent women from working together and being powerful.


Agree totally! I was saving this post for some reason--piece of someting bigger? but it may be worth adding here--as you & I have discussed--that Fenner's actions towards the two Govs play out very differently over the seasons.


You know how dark bodies that can't been seen exercise all these strange pulls on other planets in front of them or on their paths (whatever)--in their vicinity?

This is, I believe, a dynamic that I didn't take in to account in considering questions of relative skill, competency, etc. Fenner's got a lot of pull and uses it to very different ends with the two women. He creates interference all over the place for Helen, in matters small and large. He does it out of spite, but also to cover his tracks. For the most part he notably does not do this with Karen in S2-3: his offenses are even more serious at this point, he's in the spotlight--for the escape, for his behavior with Rachel, with Shell, etc--and he can't afford to have any more attention heading his way--so he supports Karen at most points in order to obscure his agency; to make shit flow downriver, away from him; & to cultivate her--as a shag and confederate/dupe. The difference there is: Helen *knows* he's pulling strings & jerking her around. For the most part--Karen does not. In this way, Fenner is used to different ends as plot device himself as regards the two women; his use--and offenses--in Karen's case is almost solely personal. Looked at from this angle... this is all pretty nicely balanced and I think deliberate in terms of storytelling, plot structure, and irony.

_________________

hetane PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:04 am

Okay okay Abzug and EKNY are screenwriters, both of them, I just know it. Wink Always with the good points.

_________________

abzug PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:55 pm

OK, I am clearly an idiot, but when everyone mentioned that Siobhan McCarthy played Donna in Mamma Mia! I didn't realize that she played it in the original cast, the only cast which has been recorded doing the show, as far as I know. And, the cast recording which I actually OWN, and have listened to a zillion times. Now I need to play it again to hear her singing voice. I'm kind of excited! (Yes, I admit it, I've developed a bit of a Roisin obsession.)

Edited to add: OK, this is now too weird. It seems I actually saw Siobhan McCarthy in the recent revival of Medea on Broadway (Fiona Shaw starred as Medea). I must check my old Playbills. How bizarre. She made no impact on me whatsoever, in whichever role it was she played. I guess actresses have to play gay to get my attention!

Transplanting from the lesbian films thread....

I couldn't agree with you more. The tough thing about Cassie and Roisin was that they were so estranged from the very first moment. Other than holding hands when they arrived at Larkhall, they didn't seem to be capable of mutual affection for most of season 4. I think the writers were trying to show an early-stages relationship placed under shattering stress. But I think it would have been more effective if they had given us a taste of the affection between these two when they introduced the characters (for instance, by having Cassie actually get into bed with Roisin in this scene we're talking about). Then they could have had the stress of prison start tearing them apart, since their relationship wasn't long-standing and didn't have the emotional strength built up yet. And then had them reunite at the end, as they did. But it would have made the entire plotline so much more compelling because we would have cared about the characters and the relationship. Instead, we just watched these two women be mean and snippy with eachother for episode after episode, until it became (nearly) impossible to care what happened to them.

I'd also add that while Simone and Mandana are both tremendous actors and had unequaled chemistry, they were also helped by incredible writing, in terms of character and relationship development. Siobhan McCarthy and Kellie Bright had a lot less to work with. But I think they did a decent job with the material they had, and when they reunited towards the end of the season, I found myself very emotionally involved in their relationship. Which is more than I can say for Kris and Selena.

Yeah, especially since we already knew the level and wildness of their affection for each other. We already knew that Roisin got into trouble (big trouble actually, in jail), separated from her kids, estranged from them by her husband, not in speaking terms with her husband basically because she fell in love with Cassie. You don't turn your world upside down and start on a spree of firsts for all the girls.
On the other hand we know how much Cassie loved Roisin. You don't add more years to your sentence just out of guilt, you have to really love somebody to be able to do it. We are programmed for self-preservation, it takes will to override that.

So in not showing us the affection that otherwise we were told was there seemed contrary to the point, plot and character development.

I just can't belive that two women are capable of doing what these two did or wanted to do for each other, but then if you give them a chance they stay nicely in their beds and have no problem containing their emotions. Not even Helen managed. One of the two doesn't ring true. Either they don't feel that passionately about each other (which the level of affection shown suggests), but then they don't get into prison or stay in prison for each other or they do do that but then they can't contain their emotion.

Yes, Simone and Mandana went for it and were encouraged to do so.

I liked Roisin's struggle with her feelings, I liked her as a character. I don't think she should ever be put to choose between being true to herself and be a mum. I could say that it is a patriarchal society that puts this as a choice (when it isn't, they're two separate things, equally essential to a woman) to a woman and more than that actually chooses for her.

I would have liked to see a bit more of Cassie's struggle to understand Roisin's position. As such she had an eureka moment in a conversation with Yvonne and that was it. They develop it a bit but not nearly enough.

I mean, they spent countless scenes to tell us in so many ways and ad nauseaum what sort of a person is Di Barker. When she's so repetitive and predictable!

I finished watchin season 4 the other day, and luved it! It would've been great for Helen to have turned up, and teamed up with Karen to get Fenner, you know, after Karen saw him for what he was - what Helen warned her he was - a masoganist(sp?) bastard, playing her from day1.

Got series5 disk1 today, watched first four eps of series 5 now. Luved the return of Shell, under the name of Nikki Wade!

I couldn't agree more, and I would have preferred a version of their story which emphasized this! But to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, I thought the point of the early Cassie and Roisin estrangement was that they had reached their breaking point. That Roisin, in particular, did not think she was going to go to jail (if she had, she would have pled guilty as Cassie did and gotten a reduced sentence), and so when she wound up there, she kind of went over the edge. And of course, the fact that Roisin wound up in jail made Cassie feel very responsible/guilty. Those are hard things to work through when you are a new couple, no matter how passionate you are for eachother. (And, I would add, that I think these two are just that: Passionate, but not yet in love.)

I actually had a different take on that. I thought Cassie liked Roisin, was wildly attracted to her, enjoyed the thrill of winning her over etc. BUT, I think her willingness to add more years to her sentence, and to give up other things for Roisin (her initial phone call, for instance) were more out of responsibility/guilt than love. Although, to add another level of complexity, I think Cassie is the type who wouldn't admit to herself that she was in love with Roisin, in which case I could agree with you that she was motivated by love, but just wasn't conscious of it. Does that make sense?

I KNOW! Particularly that first night! Although maybe prison is a decidedly unsexy place when you're actually THERE (as opposed to watching it on tv) in which case that could explain it.

Yeah, Cassie was definitely less well-developed as a character. To some extent I blame the actress, because she could have brought a lot more complexity to it if she had worked harder/been more talented. She kind of seemed like a resentful adolescent most of the time, and I think there MUST be more to Cassie than that, otherwise why the hell would Roisin have fallen for her?

YES! I haven't watched S7 yet (am starting tonight) but have heard it gets worse. I can't believe they've kept her around for 6 full seasons! She's the longest running character after Fenner and Bodybag....

Cauase she's the only character in BG ever to sport a four-pack?

Sorry, couldn't resist. <scurrying quickly away...> --e

Girl, you've GOT to see "The Gymnast"--the lead in that (Dreya Weber) has a six pack and every other defined muscle you could ever imagine. She must work out 10 hours a day to have that body.

Heh. I'm not an ogler that way, was just being a bitch about Cassie actually.

Linda Hamilton had about 4% body fat after the year she prepped bef doing T2. When Arnold saw her he said: Linda. You are ripped to shreds. (Which is about the highest compliment you can get from someone like that.) 4% is like... effing ridiculous. But 10 hours a day shouldn't be necessary, should it? Not unless that's ALL you do for a living.

And who could discuss Bad Girls so endlessly with that sort of person?! ;) Surely there's some happier compromise.

Chez Nikki never bothered Helen.
Though Simone might say that Helen promoted her to enhanced for selfish reasons.

Hehe, so true so true! :D

But actually, to think about this seriously as well, by the time Nikki falls for Helen, she has been in prison a long time, is used to it, become somewhat at ease (as much as one can be), made her cell a home. Helen, too, has worked in Larkhall for a while, and not only that, its somewhere she chooses to be. In contrast, this Cassie-Roisin scene we are discussing takes place their very first night in their cell on G-Wing. That's got to be a big shock, kind of an anti-aphrodisiac.

True. But at the same time, when you find yourself in perilous circumstances, you tend to stick to the flock. Actually, people are known to make strange friends just because they are the ones that are physically close to them at night.

If anything, being suddenly thrown in prison should have made them, at least at the beginning, forget about their differences. Sort of "Shit, Roisin", "Shit Cassie" "We're in the bleedin' prison".

On second thought, it would have worked even if Roisin would have climbed into bed with Cassie. Silently or amid Cassie's moralising protests.

This is a very interesting point! Let's think about this for a sec. So, in this scene, Roisin makes the first move when she says to Cassie "Please get down here and into bed with me" or whatever the exact line is. But, it's a weird first move, because although she's speaking her desire, she doesn't actually ACT on it. She's requesting that Cassie take action. As you say, she could have gotten out of her bed and climbed in with Cassie if she had wanted to sleep with Cassie. But she didn't. Cassie has to come to her, which is a pretty apt metaphor for their relationship: Roisin doesn't want to lose her kids, Roisin isn't willing to give up anything to be with Cassie etc etc. She wants to have her cake and eat it to.

Isn't it just the fact that Roisin respects Cassie's wish (not to be in bed together that night)?
I see the situation between them like this: Cassie knows how powerful Roisin's weakness for her is. But at the same time she knows (and throws back at Roisin) that Roisin doesn't want to really admit it, internalise it (Roisin later does do it, in her madness period). Cassie is basically accusing Roising of using her emotionally and physically, in the sense that she wants Cassie's love but without giving Cassie back what Cassie wants, meaning a bit of recognition and a clear choosing of her (not over the kids but still choosing of her).

Roisin knows all this so she's not got very much leeway in initiating love between them.

It's fenomenal (though not uncommon at all) the amount of guilt they pass between them and the way they do it. It makes that prison cell even smaller. On the other hand it pushes things far enough to drive Roisin to her purgatory and healing madness.

It's also interesting to see Cassie all in awe at Roisin being in control. It reminded me of Nikki being all smitten by Helen being bossy.

Munky I do agree with you. I think the way the relationship is portrayed re not having sex is as much about portraying the state of their relationship as about being sexually realistic.

What some call "the delayed f**k" is a fairly common way for TV series to keep the relationship between 2 characters interesting and dramatic. I can't remember the Cassie-Roisin relationship very clearly at all because I wasn't very impressed when I saw it. And I've only seen it once.

They seem to try to have some conflict between a lesbian couple in BG to make the story dramatic and interesting. Good on Shed for choosing a slightly different kind of conflict for each couple, even if they didn't create great lesbian stories post series 3.

I think sharing a prison cell with a lover that you're really into could make prison life relatively bearable. But it also may depend on the baggage each character and/or relationship brings into prison with them. A bit like holiday relationships - sometimes going on holiday with a partner can make or break it because of the intensity of being in each other's company for so much of the day. Denny and Shaz for instance seemed to really like being in prison together. But we didn't get much of a close-up portrayal of the development of their relationship.

i started reading this thread and realised how long it was, so unfortunately i'll have to leave it for another time when i'm not so tired and have more time to sit down and really concentrate (a perfect opportunity would be some downtime at work.....haha, gotta love an office job!).

i've had the dvds for some months now but was never really in any rush to watch them (unlike seasons 1-3 for obvious reasons!), however in recent weeks i decided i would finally watch them. i wasn't sure how i would enjoy BG without H&N but i was pleasantly surprised when i actually enjoyed the episodes. yvonne is just brilliant, denny's return was very welcome and cassie and roisin, well....quite an odd relationship there, but enjoyable all the same and they're not too bad to look at either! ;) yum YUM ;) i do miss is dockley's lines though.....bloody funny some of them!

so having decided that BG is worth watching post H&N i think i'll buy seasons 4, 5 & 6, but not just yet, i'm off to the UK next month (indefinitely) and i can't fit them in my suitcase, nor have i the space on my laptop to take them with! they'll have to wait until i get back.....or maybe i'll find a flatmate who also happens to be a massive BG fan!! ;)


going off topic here but can i just say that i love the discussion that goes on here, you're all a very interesting, intelligent and insightful bunch and i'm really enjoying my time here.

I felt exactly the same way about S4. I know it has a bad rep, but I actually thought it was quite good, not a drop in quality from S3. S5 was a bit more difficult though, very dark, so bewarned. Maybe not the best thing to watch right after you've moved to a new city--you'll need some friends to hold your hand at moments.

I'd certainly endorse abzug's point that ,while Series 4 has a bad reputation, it really does repay effort spent in watching it with an opewn mind with no preconceptions. I've always felt that each series of BG is, to some extent, different from each other and it explains how Shed have managed to 'ring the changes' although I recall them recently saying in a recent Q and A that they will always revisit past themes but in a different way.
Campgrrls is right on the mark in saying that each lesbian couple has some conflict going on. You will find that one of the partners is more or less committed to the relationship (i.e. Nikki, Cassie,Selena) while the other partner has conflicting loyalties (Helen towards her job, Roisin towards her children and by extension her husband, and Kris towards her family) and varying attitudes to their sexuality.
Even Denny has some residual loyalty to Shell although otherwise she and Shaz have a pretty uncomplicated relationship.

I think how one views a series can be strongly influenced by expectations and the amount of prior knowledge we have of what's to come. I think for those of us watching series 4 when it 1st showed we had no idea where the series was going. And we had a lot of unresolved dissatisfaction with the way Nikki & Helen's relationship was downgraded thru sereis 3. For many of us the ghost of Nikki & Helen hovered over us as we watched series 4 unfold. I kind of remained interested in the show, but after the highs of Nikki & Helen it disappointed. It was like experiencing cold turkey withdrawal and being offered panadol as a compensation.

I think Yvonne's character was one of the reasons I kept wtching. I also appreciated that the actress had more of a political outlook than either Simone or mandana really had.... not that they weren't fairly liberal etc.

That's something I'm starting to really appreciate with series 7 and the Pat character, who seems like Nikki's heir, but in a way has more of a similarity with Yvonne.

But this is a different kind of appeal from the intense romantic sensuality of Nikki & Helen.

This is undoubtedly true, and I certainly had an emotional advantage watching S4, having been prepared for their departure at the end of S3, and in fact, knowing that they became more platonic than romantic in S3 enabled me to not have any resentment about this, in the way that I think many UK viewers had.

However, I did see the ghost of Nikki and Helen hanging over season 4, but in a very resonant way. I thought the handling of so many characters grappling with their sexuality (Roisin, Grayling) emphasized Helen's heroism on this issue in a very inspiring way. In addition, Karen's passivity demonstrated Helen's relentless efforts and actions on behalf of the women. As for Nikki's absence, there was a lack of advocacy from the prisoner's side, which came to the fore with the Shaz-Maxi fight, where Roisin had to push Yvonne to intervene. While Nikki generally avoided getting involved in the other prisoners' squabbles, she wouldn't have let such a fight proceed, imo.

Now that is very very true.

Just found this on the official BG site. I am sure many UK viewers have already seen it back many years ago, but since I wasn't aware of its existence, I figured it was worth posting:

Roisin Connor: Pre-Sentence Report
http://www.badgirls.co.uk/library/lib_rcpsr/lib_rcpsr_3.html

They had a probations officer write the type of report she would have written in real life for Roisin--very interesting stuff.

Well, I've only just gotten hold of S4-6 and just finished watching S4 over the course of about a week. I'm not sure I can add anything to the discussion, but I do agree with most everything you've discussed here. I didn't hate S4. I found Bodybag to be the most objectionable human being ever. Fenner, Grayling, and Barker deserve each other....can I just say there was some sort of poetic justice with Neil slipping roofies to Fenner on his stag night?

Toward the end, I liked Cassie and Roisin....I had a sort of love/hate relationship with them. Cassie definitely struck me as a spoiled adolescent...and Roisin's unhealthy doses of Irish Catholic guilt made me want to slap her silly. But then I've suffered through enough of it myself, I guess.

Maxi's decline and fall was one of the best story lines this season. Brilliant acting...

Hey Evangelist--great to have you back! I'm glad you enjoyed S4--as you probably noticed from all my posts I also enjoyed it quite a bit. Agreed with everything you said, but also wanted to add, now that I've seen S7, that I still think Cassie and Roisin might have the most well-executed relationship resolution of any relationship on BG. They aren't the only ones with a happy ending (obviously), but the pace of it felt perfect, and it felt fairly hard-won, and yet still believable. In fact, in my memory their last few episodes fully overshadowed their 3/4 season-long estrangement--and that's not something I can say about even Helen and Nikki. Perhaps this was intentional with H&N--that what they went through in S3 was so soul-destroying that its not the kind of thing which can just be erased or fully compensated for.

*waves*
Thanks, abzug. RL got in the way in the form of two huge projects that were due at the same time....on top of my day job. Busy little bee I've been.

Yes, I agree with your thoughts on the pacing and resolution to Cassie and Roisin...and it is nice to have more than one happy ending for the lesbians. In my mind, to compensate for what went on with N&H in S3 would have taken a whole 'nother series to unravel and repair what went on between them. But...I guess I'll just take it as it is because it's still better than anything else I've seen on US TV.

Knowing Simone and Mandana, I think they could have done it in about two episodes. Just imagine them spent in Helen's apartment. Scene after scene. Those two could do so much with such brief material. <sigh>

But yes, compared to US television, well, there really IS no comparison, now is there?

I just started watching season 4 and all i can say is...


... God i miss Nikki and Helen!

Hey.... as you can probably tell, I'm new around here. So, hi all *waves*.
I've just read the whole of this thread, and felt strangely inclined to reply.... :P I've watched BG in a strange order, really. I wanted to watch BG at the start of series 3 (I was either too young or unaware of it before), so me and my Mum sat down and saw Shell stab Fenner with the bottle and she promptly changed the channel :lol: . I ended up watching little bits of series 3, enough to know that I wanted to watch the next series, but not enough to have a real awareness of what was going on.
Anyway, long and boring story short, I ended up watching series 4, (and Cassie and Roisin) before I was really into Helen and Nikki (please, don't all try to kill me at once :P). I think that the fact that I went backwards to see the Helen and Nikki story means that I see series 4 in a different way to, maybe, to how people who've watched it all in order do. Cassie and Roisin were the first ongoing lesbian relationship I ever saw on TV, so I'll admit to feeling a certain amount of 'loyalty' towards them. I think that some people who've watched in order feel that Cassie and Roisin were a 'replacement' for Helen and Nikki, and a poor one at that. I admit that if I'd seen Helen and Nikki first, I'd probably be amoungst those! I also, like quite a few people in this thread, don't see a huge difference between series 3 and series 4 in terms of entertainment. I find series 3 a little frustrating from a H&N viewpoint, but generally I enjoyed it, and I don't see series 4 as much different.
One series I don't have a huge amount of time for is series 5, but I guess that opinion belongs elswhere :)

Hi Kirsty! Welcome to the board! It's very interesting to hear your perspective on Cassie and Roisin since it was uninfluenced by a previous attachment to Helen and Nikki. C&R are definitely my favorite couple on the show after H&N, although it took me a while to warm to them (as was probably apparent from reading this thread!). It's funny, this idea of people not liking C&R because they were a replacement for H&N, because I have to say I wouldn't mind having such a "replacement" couple right now!

I couldn't agree more! S5 had it bright spots, but overall it's the one series I think I would not watch again. The final few eps were just too brutally depressing. As was the whole first half, frankly. But yeah, there's a thread for that.... ;)
http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...p?showtopic=257

I'm not sure if i see them as replacements for Nikki and Helen.

It is just, they were a couple before they got to Larkhall... and we still have to wait the length of a bible before they kiss. Now i know Roisin is a mun and worried what her being in prison and in a lesbianrelationship will do to them, but that storyline was getting old. (Perhaps i should pay more attention to the timeline; i saw serie 4 in a couple of days)

And then there are the references to earlier seasons. Shaz in the pottingshed digging a tunnel; it just reminded me of Sean warning Helen to look for tunnels. "Go on, shatter my dreams" There were others.


What i did like is that Nikki and especially Helen were still mentioned. In a lot of series when actors/characters leave it is out of sight, out of mind.


I guess what i'm saying is that igot used to having Nikki and Helen around; i just miss them.

Hi Kirsty, welcome to this board. I must admit I hadn't thought in terms of BG being watched in reverse order. Finally catching up with the series sounds like an exercise of 'looking at life sideways' the possibilities of which should not be underestimated. On another MB, I disagreed with the prevailing notion of C and R being a 'replacement' for H and N. My feelings regarding BG is in terms of seeing it as a fantastic ensemble show where whatever favourite characters, whoever they are, is absolutely fine. It is very noteworthy that no single series of BG is ever like another series and Series 8 is showing some highly interesting developments. Series 4 in the absence of Helen and Nikki and the introduction of new characters and developments in existing characters put the series as a whole onto a new course.

It took several weeks before I was ready to watch season 4 because I wasn't ready to not see Helen and Nikki anymore. But just into the first episode, I realized that it wasn't so bad after all. The two Julies and Yvonne and most everyone else were still there and by telling myself that Helen and Nikki were off setting up house, I was able to enjoy the entire season. I wasn't all that yahoo about Cassie and Roisin's storyline - there seemed to be a lot of bitching, guilt trips and quick leap into heroin addiction and even quicker recovery from what I assume was Roisin's nervous breakdown on the block and stay in the muppet wing. Then, she rejoins Cassie on the wing and they're a happy couple. Then they save Neil and are pardoned and set free. End of story.
For some reason, I'd thought that Cassie and Roisin were long-term characters, not just one season and I guess that's why I can't shake the feeling that their story was rushed.
I liked both characters, but considering they were on for only one season, I could have lived without all the "bottoming out" between them and what felt like a quick resolution at the end.
I dunno...I'll watch it again and see if I change my mind.

I'm planning to rewatch S4 one of these days as well, and I'm curious to see how I feel about Cassie & Roisin the second time through. I agree their overall storyline was very quick, particularly because they showed up already estranged (as you pointed out), so there seemed to be a lot of shorthand in depiciting the relationship. But on the other hand, I liked that we got a few episodes at the end to enjoy them as a happy and loving couple (even if neither one of their personal transitions to get to that point were totally convincing). Unlike with H&N, where we only got about 45 seconds to enjoy them as a happy and loving couple.

Oh, but what a great 45 seconds that was!!!!!
:kiss1

HI

I'm pretty new to all this.. but I just recently started watching Bad Girls... and I have to say that I really like series4... and I also developed an obsession about Siobhan McCarthy... but I can't seem to find much about her on the net... do any of you know where to look?

sorry about the spelling I'm from Denmark


Cheers

You know, I spent a while looking for Siobhan stuff online and found essentially nothing. No official site, few images, etc. So I make do with my Mamma Mia! original cast recording whenever I need a fix. She has an absolutely wonderful singing voice. Does anyone else know if she's on any other cast recordings?

Hi QB27, Here's a thread from BGOL with some pics of Siobhan McCarthy.

http://www.badgirlsonline.co.uk/ubb5/ultim...=1;t=002130;p=3

I too had a scout around and got nothing but I didn't know about the mamma mia thing! Will have to investigate!

Thanks for trying... It's a bit strange that there's nothing... I bought the mamma mia sound track on i tunes... but I cannot seem to find much else..

Hi again... does anyone know where to find the interview that she did with Kellie Bright? I think that it was on british morning tv??