I'm only two episodes in, so forgive me my naivite about how everything ultimately turns out. Plus, I only have about five minutes to jot down some thoughts. First, I am blown away by how thematically and symbolically unified this show is over all its seasons. For instance, over in the Slinkster Nylon thread (aka the Evidence Thread) I posted the following many months ago:

So of course I was grinning when Di tries to get Fenner into bed by telling him she's ovulating, and then he can't get it up. It fit perfectly with how they've been depicting Fenner's sexuality and character since season 1! They could have had him just not be attracted to Di (which is where they sort of take it later in the episode), but instead the emphasize his impotence in the face of needing to demonstrate his fertility, to really BE a man, by spreading his seed. He can't do it.

I also LOVED LOVED LOVED watching him suffer in jail. It wasn't long enough, but it was so nice to see him get his comeupance a little bit. I thought the way he was plagued by his transgressions, the way he was trying to process them, was very compelling and realistic for a character as amoral as Fenner. The way he sort of comes to a place of understanding as to his own guilt, feeling (at least in a corner of himself) that he's not any better than all the sex offenders he's locked up with.

When I have another minute later today, I'll also post some thoughts about Fenner as Wing Gov, take 3, and Natalie vs Janine. Gotta run!

OK, I'm back. So, in my haste in my previous post, I forgot to mention the other Fenner-related continuing theme/symbolism, which is his penetration anxiety. (Reviewed ad nauseum in the Penetrating Fenner thread.) That scene when he's in prison and the gang attacks him in the shower was very telling. He was scared of them from the moment they entered, but he didn't lose it until the gang leader pulled out the mop handle. While they didn't actually show anything which would indicate that they raped him with it, I still think its significant that his fear of this phallic weapon was so overwhelming, when his fear of the weighted bags they were swinging at him was so much less. The moment he saw it, he feared rape--the culmination of all his fantasies about Helen and Shell's power over him.

Now, I was actually surprised at how well they managed to get Fenner back on G-Wing. I'm not saying its logical or believable exactly, but I expected it to stretch my suspension of disbelief much further than it actually did. It will be interesting to see how Fenner handles being Wing Gov, because unlike the other times he was Gov (briefly at the start of S2, and then for the first half of S4), he does not have the support of the Number One. I've noticed that when Fenner has anxiety about his own lack of control/authority, his sinister behavior comes out.

And, my final musing about Nataline and Janine. This is the first time since Shell and Rachel that there has been such a targeted bullying dynamic on the wing. Which certainly makes me fear for poor Janine. I think the show purposefully draws a number of parallels, particularly with Natalie's attack on Janine's eye (the piercing with the needle, and then the gift of the eyeball). It reminded me of how Shell Xed out the eyes on the photo of Rachel's baby, but of course this case is a far more evil and dangerous version of this impulse. Shell engaged in more of a mental intimidation (I don't think any of us think she would have actually KILLED Rachel) while it appears Natalie will stop at nothing before destroying Janine.

You're right, there hasn't been a HUGE bullying dynamic since Shell and Rachel. While we all thought, early on, that Shell was the most evil and psychotic creature to enter Larkhall, looks like Natalie stretches far beyond any of Shell's means. But don't forget that Shell was inside for torture plus murder. So I wouldn't have put it past her to kill Rachel, although I doubt she would've taken it that far. I do think that Natalie is more evil than Shell, which makes her super-psychotic to be outing the infamous Shell Dockley! I think it would've been great if Shell was still at Larkhall when Natalie arrived, we would've had a great clash-of-personalities to view!

Ah, now finally we can talk about series 7!!! Yes, there's a lot of ways that recent discussions on earlier series fit in with series 7 - especially the discussions on evidence. The devlopments on this theme are very interesting in series 7 IMO.

I didn't tape the first half of the series tho because I found it really frustrating. It may have followed earlier themes well. But one way it was out of character IMO is that there was too much of a male focus. Fenner makes a good villain, but to make him the centre of the show was a bit of a turn-off for me. Even tho I welcomed the hurning of the tables and him getting a fitting punishmment while an inmate.

Natalie Buxton is truly far more evil than Shell, as I posted on the humour in BG thread - and a worry because she seems to attract a bit of a fan following She has a level of callousness that Shell never had, and a higher level of pre-meditated abuse of others that Shell never had. Shell is abusive to women & a man who crossed her in some way. Buxton takes it a step further and is abusive to anyone if it gets her the power she craves. The wonder is that Janine puts up with it. Shell never terrorised Denny they way Buxton does Janine.

Fenner's infertility: I think he can't get it up because he doesn't want to have children. He absolutely doesn't want to be fertile. But that in itself is an indication of his preoccupations and character and in-keeping with the thesis about him being a character that is infertile.... but infertile from choice rather than just as a direct result of his character. He has no desire to care for some weak and helpless baby - especially one of Di's.

I don't think it would've been such a great clash between Buxton & Shell. Buxton will often try to do deals with another strong character, if she can't outdo her/him. Especially if it's someone who is a bit on the evil side. And as it happens in series 7 it's preferable that she's undisputed top dog at this stage IMO.

Yes it does bring out Fenner's evil streak with Grayling as governing governor. But it also makes the prog. too male dominated IMO. And the morphing of Grayling's character stretches my belief a little too much.

Aah, the start of a totally brilliant debate on Series 7. There isn't much I can add to the points made except that I certainly have found that Natalie's 'following' is a very strange phenomenon. While she has the airbrushed glamour looks, there is literally no redeeming features to her while you could have some understanding of Shell. You find the contrast between Janine's initial cocky attitude and when she comes up against Natalie.
The position of Grayling as liberal is interesting as, in his own slightly managementspeak fashion, he carries on the helen / Karen liberal tradition and ends up as the positive gay man role model, the exact opposite of Series 4 Grayling. You could say that Karen is the one who has directly influenced him in the way he has changed, notably in late Series 6.
Fenner's setting in a male prison was riveting stuff and harks back to the Series 1 prison realism. The interaction between him and Di is very fraught and to be followed carefully.

I agree that this evolution of his character somewhat strains the imagination, although I thought his biggest transition came in S6, when he brought in Myers and seemed to value competence over favoritism.

(Have I mentioned how much I miss Myers?)

Anyway, I think the writers were left in S7 without a sympathetic character in a powerful position in the prison bureaucracy, and the show always needs one*, so they had Grayling take on that role, even though in the past the welfare and rehabilitation of the inmates never seemed to be a concern.

In my mind, Natalie is evil on par with Fenner--she gets off on abusing people for the sake of feeling powerful. But her seductiveness, her ability to charm people who she has abused, is quite fascinating. I noticed this in S6 and it annoyed the crap out of me, because everyone seemed so moronic and gullible. But in this way she's sort of a classic abuser, who targets those who are vulnerable to her charm, who will simply take the abuse and take the abuse (like an abused wife who never leaves her husband).


* Remember the 2-3 episodes at the end of S5 after Fenner had gotten rid of Karen? Those episodes were terrifying, unmitigated evil running amok. They couldn't possibly carry on for an entire season like that.

I agree that it had too much male focus. The shows called "Bad Girls" and should therefore stay focused on the women in prison. Although I did enjoy watching Fenner living on the other side of the bars!

When you put it that way, I guess you're right. If Natalie feels threatened, she tries to get on side, usually by using her sexuality (like when she tries to come on to Kris, and later Pat). Can you imagine if Shell was there, and Natalie madea pass at her? :lol:

Actually the thing about Natalie making deals with opponents I think I got from some comments by Danielle Brent about her character. But it was also evident in series 7.

I agree that the series couldn't have gone on so totally male dominated. But I think I was watching the series without any clues as to where it was going. I didn't log onto wbesites for the prog. at that point. And while I have kind of enjoyed series 4-6, I had no real faith in where Shed was going to take the series. If I had more of a clue where it was going I may have been less annoyed with the focus on Fenner. It became clear to me in retrospect, after seeing the whole series, as to why Fenner was a central focus of series7.

You will see when we get on to discussing the later eps in series 7, I was totally diverted from where I thought Pat's relationship/s were going & missed, what became clearly evident on a second viewing knowing how things were going to pan out.

BTW are you the same "Richard" that I'm talking with about series 7 over on BGonline?

Whoever said there was too much Fenner in the first half of season 7 was absolutely right. I have found myself needing to turn away from the screen for entire scenes, particularly when episode 3 was alternating between Di and Fenner, and then Bodybag and Dr. No No. The combination of those four characters really turned my stomach. Blech. They are all just too vile for words.

I see Fenner's infertility/impotence on a more symbolic level, rather than psychological. We have a character who is hypersexual, yet completely ineffectual (ie his sexual activity produces no discernable result). He has a deep fear of sexual assault, a fear of being penetrated, and then when ultimately he IS raped, he suddenly decides to get a vasectomy, which seems to me to be a metaphorical castration.* His lack of fertility is emphasized in that first "sex" scene with Natalie, where they actually show her cleaning his sperm off her hand (I was actually SHOCKED that this made it onto television--this would never happen in the US, even on HBO)--he has spilled his seed, not planted it. This show says some very interesting things about masculinity when it comes to Fenner, and this seems to be the culmination of it, of his demasculinization.

* It also interested me that they paired his vasectomy with seeing a therapist--he tells Di he will go to therapy, but in fact he's castrating himself. I guess we're supposed to see how Fenner sees therapy as completely demasculinizing, when in fact, the action he is taking is even more so.

Great edit from the scene of Bodybag and Dr. No No traipsing up the stairs in her mansion to Colin and Laura heading down the stairs into the dungeon where Laura's sister has been trapped. Very nice juxtaposition. They don't use this kind of technique too often, so its always interesting to notice when they do.

Yes, Fenner's preferred sexual activity seems to involve spilling his seed in ways that won't lead to conception & that doesn't involve penetration.... It seems to have been common knowledge amongst the inmates in series 1 that Fenner likes to be blown & it was indicated that this was what he did with both Shell & Rachel. It may have been a big mistake on his part to indulge in sexual activity with Shell while he was in a prone position at the end of series 2, rather than his seemingly preferred position of standing up.

I'm not so sure that I see Fenner's vasectomy as an emasculation. I think having babies could be seen as having a domesticating effect. There is a theme about nurtring children that develops in series 7. And Fenner seems to have little interest in the children he already has.

However there are connotations of female penetration and at least two explicit references to castration, so castration IS a theme also in the second half of series 7.

The fear of being penetrated by other men is also a fear linked to Fenner, and is related to one or two of the points I've made on BGonline today with reference to the second half of series 7. It's linked to the Fenner type of macho dominance.... Oh geez something has just occured to me about Kevin Spiers.

I have a theory about how explicit comments about lesbian and gay sexuality are used in series 7 (or at least the second half of the series as I have watched that more than once). I'll elaborate more on that when the discussion focuses on that part of the series.

It was me who said I found the first half of the series too male dominated. And this is why I didn't tape it.... which might have been a useful thing to have done in retrospect. I'm glad I keep watching it tho. But I'm kicking myself that I didn't start taping it at least one ep earlier. The first ep I have on tape is ep 7. However distasteful some of those first few eps of the series are, they set things up for developments in the second half of the series.

I think they do some interesting intercuts between some storylines in the latter part of series 7 also.

What did Natalie wipe Fenner's cum off her hand with? I can't remember, but it may be crucial to a development in the latter part of the series.

Also as I didn't take close notice of series 4-6, I'm trying to remember the details of why Fenner got together with Di. Cos in series 7 I was wondering why he was staying with her, and also why he was still sleeping in the same bed as her. Something about that doesn't quite make sense to me towards the end of series 7, which is maybe why it was explicit.

As I recall Fenner partly seems to like to have a woman at home, but it also helped his credibility in issues around Karen & Grayling???????

Oh goody! That Penetratin Fenner thread is coming back to life folks! ;)

I have finished watching through ep 5, and I can see that the introduction of Pat Kerrigan is set up brilliantly. Since I know she becomes a sympathetic character (at least somewhat), the fact that her first few minutes on screen suggest she is violent and murdurous is very interesting. They've set up the nun character to be relatively sympathetic, particularly in her manner of standing up to Natalie (although we've seen the whipping which is at least a little disturbing), so the idea that Pat is coming to Larkhall to get her makes us think that Pat is an evil one on par with Shell or Natalie. I love when they play with these reversals of expectation, so I am glad they are doing it again in S7.

BUT, I must register a few complaints about the handling of Arun and the revelation that she is transgendered. Brilliant idea for a storyline, I am so glad they did it. I'm assuming prisons are not equipped at all to deal with this, and actually Law and Order: Special Victims Unit did a fantastic episode on this a few years back, starring Kate Moenig (Shane from the L Word) as a male-to-female transexual who murdered two boys who found out she wasn't a girl. Then she got put in a male (???) prison, where she knew she wasn't going to last more than a few weeks. It was a chilling ending as you saw what was in fate for this character who was just trying to survive in the world with everything stacked against her.

Anyway, the thing that bothered me is the focus on the hair growth as the indication of Arun's former gender. First, any MTF (male to female transexual) who has had "bottom" surgery (ie their penis inverted into a vagina) has had a TON of electrolysis. To do the surgery, they need to have all their pubic hair gone (otherwise it grows internally--ouch!), and they generally want the facial hair gone as well, for obvious reasons. Hormones do NOT eliminate facial hair, although they might reduce its growth a bit. The hair only goes away through electrolysis. So the idea that Arun stops taking her hormones and then all her facial hair grows back is just, well, absurd and not well-informed. I suspect they could have come up with some other way that she would have reacted negatively to the lack of hormones and was worried about being discovered. Actually, one thing that is very interesting for MTFs is that they must "dilate" their vaginas three times a day to keep it from collapsing. Given Bad Girls obsession with penetration, it sure would have been interesting to have Arun lose her dilator (which is much like a dildo) and worry her vagina is going to collapse! (Although there are so many arguments to make against doing the story this way that I don't even need to list them, but still would have worked thematically!).

Was there any discussion of the above when the episode first aired? I'd be very curious as to whether there were complaints about it. Of course, I have no idea where they take it all, since all I've seen up to this point is Arun's confession of her transexuality to the nun.

Well, at the time it looked like a cloth, but now we know its her underwear, and she's using it to blackmail Fenner quite effectively, thank you very much. As is Di, with her suitcase from the Karen shrine. Very very interesting.

Although, back to Arun, her flirtatious dynamic with Fenner* is now going to have a HUGE payoff, I would think, when he becomes aware of her gender status. They really do play around with Fenner's homophobic anxiety, don't they?

* Which, btw, was bugging the crap out of me when it started because although I could see Arun was doing it for her own ends, I was still so annoyed to watch yet another prisoner throw herself at Fenner. Blech.

Yeah it annoys me to that so many throw thwmselves at Fenner!! I mean, come on!

Remember when Yvonne told Nikki in series 3, "Turn lezza? I'd rather shag bleedin' Fenner first" ?

Well it'd have to be the other way round for me! I'd rather turn lezza before even thinkin about shaggin Fenner! lol

Yeah...but don't you see the kick that would have given Arun?? For the first time, *everyone* thinks that she's a woman...inside Larkhall (obviously until people discover the truth) her dream has come true. To come on to a man and know that man finds you attractive...wow!

Oh, totally! Which is why when the trans issue came out (so to speak) I was totally cheering for her, in a way. The actress did a very good job in the scenes with Fenner, because I already had a sense of how powerful she was finding the experience of seducing him, even if I didn't know exactly why.

Check your email...NOW!!

OMG, you are FUNNY! Got it, wrote back. I think someone needs to keep their hormones under control, as Helen would say. ;)

That is not fair. :o

You're quite right! Sorry for whispering in public. I promise, it was nothing very salacious.

yes but you said us modern lesbians indulge in voyeurism as well. worse, filbertfox tells us that there's something to see/hear.
it is like Nikki with 5 letters from Helen under her belt and us none the wiser. bad scripting if you ask me. :)
I can see another fan fiction coming: filbertfox letters to abzug.

sorry for goign off topic.

I'm not that keen on the portrayal of the Arun character generally. And yes that hair growth stuff seemed a bit silly. Arun just doesn't come across to me as a transexual. But then I also have some disagreement with the current orthodoxy that transexuals are basically one sex born in the body of the opposite sex. It's totally problematic to me because it begs all kinds of questions about what constitute gender differences (or similarities). It assumes a neat and natural polarity between male & female. I tend to see transgender people as challenging assumptions about a neat male-female duality. I think the idea of someone just being born in the wrong body is basically quite conservative. It recuperates the very conservative idea of men and women being naturally and irrevocably different in a whole host of ways.

Coming back to Arun. She doesn't seem to me to have the gender ambiguity that I like in most transexuals I've come into contact with. Shane in L Word has some of that ambiguity. Often that ambiguity can be heard in a transexual's voice. I read that the actress in Transamerica made a big effort to get the male-to-female transexual character's voice correct. Often male-to-female transexuals tend to be quite big-boned. There's one I know in Auckland who is developing a very male kind of bald patch at the top of her head even tho she's relatively young.

However I do like that BG introduced some issues about a male-to-female con being best placed in a female prison, and about the prejudice they face.... even if they handled it rather clumsily. And I like the reasons Pat gives for supporting Arun.

Ohhh... I wish I'd taped eps 5 & 6. I'd like to see them again.
While everyone compares Pat to Nikki (and Yvonne) I think her dangerous physicality sets her apart from those two characters, and provides a new version of the "moral centre" to BG. I also like that Pat is less middle-class in her style of talking than Nikki was, and more street wise. Also I think Pat introduces a new element into BG - or at least foregrounds what has been a lesser theme in BG in the past: i.e. that of religion, and religious insitutions. Actually we haven't really had religious institutions held up to critique before.

Yes I thought it was about Natalie using her underwear to blackmail Fenner. Also Buxton with Fenner is another e.g. of her using sex to get alongside and neutralise any strong opposition to her power ambitions. I have yet to see any real expression of feeling and/or desire for anyone else by Buxton.

Yes, I had exactly the same concern about the actress who played Arun. You should definitely see TransAmerica, because it is the only feature film depiction of transexuality which felt remotely accurate to me. Felicity Huffman did an amazing job with her voice and physicality, so you really felt that she was adjusting to her hormonally changing (and then surgically-changed) body, trying to learn to be a woman. And actually, a friend of mine (a female-to-male trans actor) has a small part in this one party scene, which was such a treat to see.

The big boned thing, I understand, has to do with how late in life a transexual transitons to their new gender. For someone like Arun, you could argue that since she is young, and therefore transitioned very young (probably in her very early 20s), then she'd wind up with a more feminine-appearing body than someone who transitioned in their 40s or 50s (or even later--I met a MTF who transitioned in her 70s!!!!). They did cast a tall actress, and you could imagine a very slender man having a similar body, particularly at that young age.

Oh, and, if it hasn't already been made abundantly clear by my previous posts, I couldn't agree with you more about your concerns of how gender is presented as a duality. Even just looking at the gay community, we have this idea of butch and femme (and everything in between) which already creates complexity in what it means to be a "woman."

My God, this debate has moved on apace. There isn't too much I can add to this as there are so many points that I agree with (or so I first thought)

The episode with Laura Canning was a high point in Series 7 and, while that fractured perception was reminiscent of Zandra's brain tumour, Shed floated in and out of public perceptions of her and her own story. It revealed a lot of Colin's backstory where he (like Laura's sister) ended up bullying to save his own skin and brought some resolution to his character. Again, I loved the motif of Bodybag and Dr No No twirling their way unpstairs while the group go down the flight of steps to rescue Laura's sister.

The matter as to whether Fenner was raped in prison was left purposefully ambiguous but the psychological fear of it has been brilliantly explained in these posts.

The split in attitudes to Arun is handled with some subtlety where Julie J and Tina reveal ambiguities in their attitudes. again, I agree that Shed have done fine by BG in introducing the religious motif, both for and against. There is an understated contrast between Nikki's relative tolerant attitude (care of Babs) in contrast to Pat's very understanding antipathy.

There is one fascinating motif and that is the way that the remnants of Fenner's shrine to Karen (as arguably an extension of Karen herself) plays its part in blowing apart the Fenner Di axis that had operated against Grayling and had kept Fenner where he was (including springing Fenner from jail) You get the feeling that this partly accounts for Fenner's downfall just as much as Fenner's constant nightmares about Yvonne wear him down. While at the end of Series 5, matters are terrifyingly askew where Fenner beats both Karen and Yvonne, in some form or other, they have their revenge.

To finish up on a quick note, I am the same Richard as on BGOL and,if I have got it right. This is the first proper full scale in depth discussion of Series 7 which unfortunately didn't get that much of an airing. This is different league stuff which I am glad to play a part in.

Ah. Yes. I've been meaning to say something about this on the lesbian movies thread. It was different in the late 70s women's movement when butch and femme were denied, along with a sexualisation of lesbian sex. Thank god we've moved beyond that!!!!

Anyway, in BG series 3 I particularly like the way Phyl is a heterosexual woman who transgresses gender norms. Like the two versions of her name (Phyl, Phylida), she is part Footballers Wife flambouyant style & part butch. She does the camp dressing up in flash femmy clothes & also does all those butchy things. I've always liked Stephanie Beecham, and she still has class and sexiness. She also defies characterisations of aging women. (I got the Footballers Wife idea from a BGOL comment about one of series 7 eps (ep 9 I think).

Yes, Richard, I have found it frustrating at BGOL that few people seem to want to discuss series 7 in much depth. And fairly soon after I attempted to contribute to a discussion, someone made a critical comment about people competing for the longest post. Clearly she hasn't been to this forum.

It is interesting to read some of their responses to series 7 when it first aired in the UK. Like their comments about how much more brightly lit series 7 is from series 1. I actually thought there was something wrong with my TV and started fiddling with the brightness & contrast settings. Then I thought it might be my VCR - glad to learn it is how the prog. was lit.

Also their questions about what happened to Hedges towards the end of the series. I think the actor either got another job, or he didn't fit with the gendered power struggles in the second half of the series.

On the castration comments/references - I clocked another one today. That makes at least 3. But they are not made with reference to Fenner. However, I think it extends the Fenner penetration theme to the wider sex/gender wars in the series.

I'm still puzzled about details of that Di-Fenner-Karen implosion, which is why I asked previously why Fenner had stayed with Di. I don't think abzug has got to those eps yet so I wasn't wanting to go into too much detail yet.

I like your description of Phyl (Stephanie Beacham) campgrrls which I had not thought of in terms like this. As a whole, the Costas do a nice line in real ruthlessness ,superficial charm and in Bev's case a certain dottiness. While I think of it, they are both consistently self centred (in terms of the two of them )and not inclined to act for the common good. This isn't a put down of the characters, just the way they operate. Yet in an understated fashion, Phyl goes out of her way to shoot Dr No No and offers a cover up story for Bodybag so that she doesn't get the blame - for a character for whom she hadn't been sympathetic to. So, in the more unlikely circumstances, you have the 'women sticking together' which Shed handled in the most unobtrusive fashion.
Going by memory, Colin's sudden exit was prompted by the actor sustaining a neck injury which necessitated him being (at least) temporarily written out- whether he reappears is another matter. It appeared at the time that it left a void where the one good prison officer left BG. Apologies to abzug or anyone else if ever I post on matters beyond where she has watched.

Wow, thanks for the heads up. I was actually thinking of spending some more time over there once I was caught up to UK viewers, but it sounds like I might not feel quite at home. ;)

I watched the first full Pat Kerrigan episode (another androgynous name, btw! This show is obsessed with them, particularly for the lesbian characters!) and was really blown away. First, to get the superficial stuff out of the way, the character is breathtakingly beautiful. I had seen many photographs of her, but I don't think she photographs all that well. The beauty is captured in the movement of her face, or something like that.

Secondly, while I might quibble with how realistic the whole confrontation with the nun was (they allowed the prisoners to watch? they actually went and got the priest?), on a symbolic level, it was brilliantly conceived. A show that focuses on power and control in institutional bureaucracies was right to tackle the Catholic Church, which one could argue has been one of the most oppressive and controlling (and imprisoning) institutions in western civilization. Its like Larkhall on steroids or something, although interestingly some people (ie Arun) choose to be oppressed by it, while others (Pat) are forced--ooh, just thought of this: maybe that's analogous to the prison officers, who "choose" to be trapped at Larkhall (Colin emphasizes this point in S5 when he tells Yvonne he is just as trapped there as she is), vs the prisoners, who are forced to be at Larkhall.

Anyway, the way that Pat was embraced by prisoners and officers alike was significant. In particular, you've got officers like Grayling and Colin behaving quite abnormally (since when does Grayling allow prisoners to rile up an entire wing? since when does Colin physically attack anyone?), but its really meant to show their identification with Pat's plight. An identification they don't let themselves have (usually--Colin does somewhat regularly, but isn't violent) with the prisoners in general, but once you take the oppression/abuse to another institution, suddenly everyone is on the prisoner's side.

There does seem to be a theme of violence generated by long-term abusive situations during this season. Not that this has been ignored in the past, but when you've got the very dramatic Laura storyline followed immediately by the very dramatic Pat confrontation of the Catholic Church (and the fact that she's in jail because she killed her abusive boyfriend), its clear they are highlighting this issue. I wonder if that is subtly setting the stage for the action the Julies ultimately take against Fenner--after years of abuse, this kind of violence should almost be seen as a normal response, not an anti-social one. What other choice do these women have?

I cannot wait to see how the Pat-Natalie dynamic plays out. Thank god we finally have a strong, intelligent, non-psychopathic inmate around. We haven't had that since Yvonne's demise, and I've missed it!

So, was this post long enough? ;)

Abzug's post has captured the essence of this scene admirably with not a single wasted word. It is totally fascinating to see how perceptions change of the nun as Pat exposed what she has done over the years and, likewise when the nun and the priest drop each other in it. Grayling's reactions are described by Abzug admirably as 'abnormal' from outside norms but in the context of the events, entirely fitting. His total scorn for Fenner who was out at a restaurant with Dr No No, Di and Bodybag while everything blew up was certainly very apt. Pat certainly made a very dramatic entrance into BG and both actress and character make a fine introduction to BG. It corrects that sense of imbalence, of a world that has gone dreadfully awry, that had afflicted the mood from late Series 5 onwards.

To me the fact that Fenner resisted that long and in such a feline way (always lending on his feet) says that the prison service, as an institution, is incapable of weeding out the likes of Fenner (for whatever reason).

Is BG saying that the only way to get rid of somebody like Fenner is to physically eliminate him? Not only that but, by having Julie attack him in an unplanned way, are they saying that the only way to succeed in eliminating him is not by trying to mount an offensive against him (like Helen, Karen tried), but by being unexpectedly brutal (like Shell was for example)?
In other words it seems that in a patriarchal society Fenner is so good at exploiting its weaknesses, that you have no chance of taking him down through the means that that society offers you.

I always thought Fenner to be a criminal, whose past always catches up with him and lends him into more and more vicious criminality. What makes him last so long is the fact that, like a haunted animal, his most powerful feature is the survival instinct. Everything else is filtered through that.

True, you have to resort to terrorism/assasination to do it. None of the legal/bureaucratic systems have any mechanism to rid themselves of a cancer like Fenner. (Which suddenly makes me think that Julie's cancer storyline is no accident--she thinks she has it beat, but does she?)

i'm trying to stick with just commenting in detail about the eps that Abzug has seen so far... up to ep 6.

I share abzug's response to Pat. Although for me she isn't as hot as Helen. However I think I like Pat's character even more. And she was the reason I immediately started taping ep 7 onwards & kicked myself for not taping ep 6. And why my interest has tended to move away from an obssession with the first 3 seasons towards series 7 & some hope for the future. Series 7 has it's faults, and I still have some doubts as to whether my hope for a great series 8 will be fully realised.

Was Pat labelled as lesbian in eps 5 or 6? I have a theory about this based on how she's portrayed from eps 7 onwards. In those eps she is never referred to as a lesbian unlike Nikki who was defined as lesbian really from the first ep. And then Helen/Sean also definatively labelled her as lesbian. In the second half of series 7 the terms lesbian/gay are only used by charcters as a term of abuse with varying degrees of accuracy. Nikki's crime also defined her as a lesbian - killing her g/fs attacker. But all we know about Pat's past relationships is that she killed her ex-b/f. And maybe about her close relationship with her female friend who was abused by the nun & priest. This is a shift in the way lesbian sexuality is portrayed in the prog. IMO.

I think in some ways Pat's success in ep 6 is manipulated by the writers. But a change when in the past they've manipulated it so that Fenner always comes to land on his feet. The catalyst for this, though, is the introduction of the Pat character. She couldn't have succeeded if Grayling, now the liberal-lefftie non-masculinist gay male, didn't have the main hold on insitutional power... & Colin Hedges, the non-masculinist het male, wasn't there to add support, while Fenner was shown to be derelict by being out to lunch. Here we have a tranisitional phase where the liberal males enable a shift in direction of the prog. away from patriarchal dominance. This dominance was supported by certain women who collaborated with their ethics - Buxton, the nun, bodybag etc.

It's not just about violence, or at this stage the threat of it being used against the system. It's about the inmates taking the law into their own hands as they have absolutely no faith in the official rule of law.

This is an interesting train of thought kicked off by campgrrls. I've always conceived righteous power in BG as operating through a continuum from prisoner right through the prison officer grades.
An example of this was with Nikki , Dominic and Helen and through various interconnections which Nikki had via the Julies, Babs, Yvonne. Institutional authority operating from above is insufficient to 'hold the ring' as even Helen found out very early on when her good wishes could be subverted or distorted.
The original non masculist het male was Dominic and Colin Hedges now fits the vacancy after starting out as anything but.
One of the more difficult things for anyone to accept is that once a character starts out as a bastard that they can ever reform and finally atone for their past. One of the interesting peculiariarities is the way Shed change Colin and Grayling in this respect. I most certainly agree that Pat has succeeded in the context of Grayling's version of liberalism and it has faint echoes of this Series 1/2 scenario as described even if it isn't exactly coming round full circle.
Just to clarify campgrrls's question about Pat's sexuality when she first arrived, her persona was as 'top dog' and general trouble maker at her previous prison who they were glad to unload. This was in a very brief clip and she was depicted having seen the press about Sister Thomas's 'good works' at Larkhall. The matter was unstated except that she'd knifed her ex boyfriend in the groin. I am going by memory as I hadn't taped the episode before Pat's arrival.

In reference to the way sexuality is portrayed, you are correct that there is NO mention of Pat being a lesbian, just her being a "man-hater" (Fenner's term) because she knifed her boyfriend (not ex-, at least, in how its been described so far thru the end of ep 6) in the groin.* In fact, were I not aware of the relationship she develops with Sheena, I'd just have assumed she was a tough-as-nails hetero.

If I am not mistaken, this is the very first time in all seven seasons that male power is shown as positive and supportive of the women. While there have been individual liberal males in the past, they have either not had any effective influence (Colin in S5), or had influence only in conjunction with liberal women in power (as has been mentioned, Dominic, also Mark Waddle). Its a very very striking shift for this program, and I think one that bears examining. Why is this now possible? Three theories come to mind:
--Because its a unique situation where the opponent is the Catholic Church?
--Because there actually IS potential within the bureaucracy for people to become LESS corrupt and MORE humanist, rather than the trajectory always going in the other direction? Because historically, the good officers have all left, and the bad ones have become worse and worse and stayed longer and longer (Dominic, Mark Waddle etc vs Di).
--Because if there is enough evil within the bureaucracy (Di and Fenner TOGETHER are undermining eachother, the priest and the nun also turned on eachother) then the good guys have the chance to come out on top?

I might argue that this has been Colin's journey all along, ever since his character was introduced. He has been trying and trying and trying to become good, battling his own cowardice and inner demons, being inspired (ineffectively) by Yvonne and then (effectively) by Myers. Finally by season 7 he's succeeded.

* Was this the castration incident you were referring to previously, campgrrls? Castration in a variety of forms has become a weapon since the Julies poured boiling water on Rhiannon's pimp in season 5 (or was that season 4?).

It's interesting how everybody perceived BG's world as being doomed, gripped by the forces of evil till Pat came on the scene. Though Grayling and Colin were there throughout, they're not heroic and thus cannot initiate the change needed. Also, as I was saying in another thread, officers cannot do it on their own, they need a heroic figure amongst the prisoners. In walks Pat, fighting no less than the Catholic Church.

Interesting as well, this heroic timeline.
First there was Nikki, feminist, gay, reluctant top dog,
Then Helen (feminist, straight then gay). Both quite heroic characters
Followed Yvonne, straight, assuming top dog position, not quite a feminist (though it is in her family that the women get the power, supreme power), but very motherly, matriarchal. I would say equally heroic, though she fights for individuals rather than for principles and for the sytem.
Finally Pat, not overtly a feminist, more of a crusader against injustice (how feminist is that!), reluctant top dog, straight than gay, heroic as well.

Yet, it is Julie, not heroic, not feminist, somewhere at the bottom of the power structure that kills Fenner.

Moving this post over from the Courtroom thread....

So, the Pat Kerrigan-Nun confrontation scene--very interestingly depicted as an improvised court trial, I think. At first, when I saw the preview for this ep, I thought Pat wanted to kill Sister Thomas. But it quickly became clear that she wanted to condemn and convict her, not physically harm her.
1. The key to Pat is that she have an audience (ie a jury) to hear the case--she objects immediately when Colin (or was it Grayling?) tries to put everyone on lockdown
2. Pat presents her own testimony (which is not generally believed by the jury--big surprise, see the thread on evidence for more on this issue), and then evidence from her friend's journal (which has much more credibility with the "jury")
3. When Pat calls for an additional "witness" (the priest), Grayling (the judge) actually insists that this witness be found and brought to the "trial."

I think its significant that Pat wins her case, because unlike the official courtrooms (which represent miscarriages of justice), in this informal courtroom, her voice is actually heard--she provides testimony, she cross-examines the defendant, etc. And because she is actually able to tell her side (unlike the Julies, Yvonne, even Nikki), justice prevails. But of course, that's only because Pat has used violence and intimidation to make sure she is heard over her abuser--another example of violence often being the only avenue available to women in this patriarchal society.

And this was campgrrls post in reply....

ep 6 is about what has been discussed for previous eps and as abzug says: who is allowed to speak at a trial and who is silenced. Yes Pat does use violence to get heard, but she laso has support form liberal anti-masculinist males in power. The evidence here also has strength because it's first hand testimonials. The priest condemns himself and the nun. Pat testifies to her past experience, which adds weight to the written testimonial of her friend. Written forms of evidence are rendered problematic by later eps in the series. But it's Pat's insider knowledge that gives the written journal its authority here, reinforced by the responses of the nun and priest.

Evidence that is spoken by those most directly involved in the activities at the centre of the trial, and the spoken evidence by the perpetrators makes the most convincing evidence here. But it also has authority because it's taken seriously by those with institutional authority, and because, as abzug has said, they have some empathy with Pat's situation.

No I have only seen eps 5 & 6 once, abzug, and didn't remember how Pat had killed her b/f. But it adds extra weight to the idea of a castration theme in the series, with the other references that came after ep 6.

I was watching ep 12 while on the exercise machine this morning. I was particularly looking out to see if an idea I had, sparked by a discussion in this MB, had any credence. The discussion that triggered my idea was the one on Fenner, penetration, spilling his seed, fertility etc. I also had a separate idea that I was toying with also related to Spiers.... Wellll!!! Spiers made a comment that IMO confirmed both ideas in a Freudian double-meaning kind of way. It made me laugh it seemed so pertinent! Anyway, all I can say is to watch out for Spiers preferred kind of sexual activity and you may get a clue as to at least one of my above ideas. And when abzug has seen the whole series maybe we can discuss it. It relates to the whole penetration, castration fear nexus

I also had some further thoughts about the masculine-feminine power struggle in series 7. I think it's not only that some men have shifted against a more patriarchal/masculinist way of operating, but in series 7 we get a shift towards masculinised women who collude with or enjoy the masculinist/patrtiarchal structure/strategies. In between is some female solidarity in resisting patriarchal dominance.

The masculine-style female judges in series 7 that I mentioned before, kind of point in this direction. While we do get some female solidarity in fighting for the moral & good (e.g. Pat fighting for her abuused friend from the convent), we also get some right wing abusive, callous and/or misguided women. This reminds me a bit of the politics thread on this MB (Feminist or Democrat). Just sticking with eps up to ep 6 at the moment.... Natalie Buxton is a very good eg. In a way she's a right wing entrpreneurial business woman. She exploits weaker and less powerful women to earn money and/or power.

I love the idea of Pat's confrontation with the nun being an improvised courtroom which is a powerful analytic tool in describing this scene. What is interesting is that Pat was able to offer 'hard' evidence of the marks on her back.
It is interesting how decisive the Julies are in audience response as their point of view shifts in believing Pat's evidence and disbelieving what they had been led to believe about the 'good nun.' Once they shifted, the rest of the prisoners moved accordingly - apart from Natalie who maintained her selfish disconnected callous agenda (right wing entrepreneurial describes her attitude perfectly). Grayling was pivotal for the prison officers as he, likewise, was prepared to be open minded and didn't follow the Bodybag Fenner routine of 'never believing a con.' His open mindedness harks back to the Helen, Karen tradition.
I love this discussion on this series and previous series as there are insights offered here which I hadn't spotted and confirms my previous feelings of BG that you only truly watch the series in the company of others on the net.

I think this is true for a lot of scenes in the eps in the second half of series 7.

Exactly. This is how I came to the Pat eps in series 7. I had just dropped into some BG forums & lurked enough to know that many fans were looking forward to Pat being in the series. But I didn't read enough to know why, or to learn about the development of her relationship with Sheena. In fact this is why I had a particular take on the Pat-Sheena storyline when I first watched seies 7.

I wasn't that keen on Sheena. Initially I just saw her as one of those slightly weak characters that are there to support someone else's storyline. At a particular point in the series when there is a shift towards the Pat-Sheena story I was like, "Huh!!!??? Where did that come from?" In fact when I rewatched the second half of series 7, I could see from early on the first steps towards the Pat-Sheena storyline. In fact they now seem totally obvious.

My first judgement of Sheena was that I didn't think Laura Roger's acting was that good. But after watching the eps a few times my respect for Sheena/Laura Rogers is growing. I now think at least some of her weaknesses are to do with the script-writing, as much as the acting. Though I think it would be hard for any actress to match Simone's portrayal of desire, or for any couple to have the chemistry that N & H had.

We also learn very little about Sheena's sexual history. Here we are taken a step beyond the Nikki-Helen relationship. It is the homophobes that define lesbian/gay sexuality in this series. Categorisation of Pat & Sheena's sexuality is not important in terms of the positive way the audience are encouraged to see them. In fact in this relationship it touches on a few points we have discussed recently in relation to Nikki & Helen. But in at least a couple of subtle ways it is moved beyond the N-H dynamic.

Same goes for other aspects of the series. e.g. as Richard pointed out the non-patriarchal male roles in series 7 have echoes back to the first few series... but there is also a shift beyond the way they were in the earlier series.

Yes, Richard, it is really great to now be able to discuss this series in depth. I think BG fandom has changed over the years. In my memory there were quite a lot of in-depth & astute ep discussions & commentaries in the first couple of years of BG fandom online - firstly by the UK fans. I also remember some long, detailed & intense discussions with NZ BG fans when there was a few of them online. But I think fandom has got younger... tho I think the NZ fans of tin the early days tended to be older than the average UK fan of that time. Also the web has become more multimedia with people swapping images as much as taking part in written discussions. And text-speak has developed and become quite wide-spread. All resulting in different ways of responding to a TV prog.