I'm working my way slowly through the rest of the series...and just saw the 3rd episode of S5. The one with Karen taking Yvonne to the hospital to see Richie...and then ducking into the pub for a drink.

Does anyone else think that they could have been a great couple? I loved those scenes in the pub...great chemistry...especially the way that Karen was making an effort to treat Yvonne as an equal; both as a mother and as a woman who has made some really bad choices in men. And I think Karen knew that even though she was technically breaking the rules, she could trust Yvonne to appreciate the treat and not drop her in it later...or at least I hope not.

These two have definitely become my two favorites in the seasons after N&H left.

That scene is my favourite of S5 ...the way the whole thing is lit the chemistry between them was wonderful...this scene got lots of peeps buzzing when it was first aired and spawned some Karen/ Yvonne fanfics ....lol

I loved this scene too, but what I loved about it was how it provided a glimpse of the chemistry which can occur between two straight women who are friends (or, in this case "friends" for only a brief moment). This is also the reason I was an avid "Sex and the City" fan back in the day, and I thought "Friends" when it was at its best, did a remarkable job showing the chemistry of female friendship.

I loved this scene as well, for the same reason as abzug. I loved how it showed female bonding. I also luved Sex and the City and Friends.

That whole scene was a highlight of Series 5. it happened in the aftermath of Grayling announcing the privatisation and the ultra correct Karen's suggestion that she and Yvonne would go to the pub and not come out until they were 'good and ready' . This points to a different and less stable world from one where Helen left off Monica's handcuffs at Spencer's funeral.
The scene in the pub was superble written and the grainy yellow photography made it very visual.
And yes, Cool is absolutely right that the scene inspired a volume of Karen Yvonne fics.

I've just been watching my new series 5 DVD and have grown fonder of Karen's character as the series progresses. Loved how she mentioned Rachel, Helen, Nikki and shell when she told Fenner she's getting him on behalf of all the women whose lives he's tried to ruin.

Before she said this, it seemed only Helen's name came up whenever Fenner's assaults were mentioned, but i loved how she mentioned Nikki as well, showing that it's not always assault that he does to try and over power women. It was nice to hear Nikki's name mentioned against Fenner, as well as Helen's. Even Rachel Hicks was brought back into it.

I've probably mentioned this before but there was a scene where Karen sits in the dark in her car while all the PO's walk past her and says 'shit' in exactly the same tone Helen uses in saying 'bastard' after she had has a run in with Fenner. Karen's level of loathing for Fenner, especially after Ritchie's suicide, got to be as great as Helen's.

I love how Karen's hatred for Fenner progressed to the level of Helen's. I think it's a bit greater with Karen though, because she didn't see it from the beginning and she allowed herself to be sucked in by him, even believing him when he said he didn't assault Helen and tearing up Helen's statement of the assault.

Well, there's no question that Fenner thoroughly destroyed Karen in a way that he was never able to manage to do with Helen. It would be interesting to speculate what would have happened between Helen and Fenner if it hadn't been for Nikki. Because of Nikki, Helen chose to abandon the fight, because nothing was more important to her than Nikki's freedom. The show almost seems to be making a statement, after the fact (ie 2-3 seasons later), that Helen wasn't weak or disempowered for letting Fenner win, but instead was making a very life-affirming and self-affirming choice, one that Karen never made, and boy did she suffer for it.

If it wasn't for Nikki, then Helen would have brought Fenner down there and then. He was about to hand in his resignation, and the only thing that he had over Helen was her affair with Nikki, so he used that to keep his own job. If there was no affair with Nikki, then he would have been forced to resign.

But we all obviously loved the affair with Nikki, and would have hated it if Nikki lost her appeal. It's better that Fenner stayed in Larkhall than Nikki because it really reflected Helen's care for Nikki and showed that she wanted Nikki to be free.

Although, looking at it purely for viewing matters, I think I would have preferred more storylines involving Nikki if she'd lost her appeal and stayed on the show.

I'm nearly at the end of S5....and I have to agree with you. In some way...it seems as if the narrative is saying that it was essentially Helen's love for Nikki that saved them both. Helen chose the welfare of someone she loved over what might have been a pyrrhic victory. As a viewer, it's nice to have that confirmation that Helen did the right thing.

Karen, however, has no one to anchor her or diffuse her hatred of Fenner and it seems to be her undoing. It just about killed me to see her carted off by the detectives.

"pyrrhic victory"--I like that a lot. Very well put. And I couldn't agree more about Karen's arrest at the end of S5. The remaining few episodes of season 5 are just beyond brutal, and you realize Karen was the only thing keeping G Wing from pure terror and anarchy. There's some interesting discussion of these final few eps in the S5 thread:
http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...p?showtopic=257

Being as this is an Yvonne thread, I have a question;

In which ep does she decide to adopt Denny, ask Julie S to look up adoption stuff on the net, and then find out it's not legal. Then she says something like, "Since when do we give a shit 'bout what's legal".

Reason I'm asking, is that I'm doing another quiz at FunTrivia, this one about Denny and Shaz. My questions refers to Jessie dying, and then goes on to stating that Yvonne later wanted to adopt Denny. The site requires that any information I state has to include the episode in which we find it out.

Lisa
xx

I loved Karen! But i liked Claire King in Emmerdale so already had a liking for her before i saw her in BG. Ive liked the Karen/Yvonne fanfics ive read too, and that pub scene was great for all the reasons pple have mentioned.

and as an aside, who was your fave SATC woman all those people who sed they loved it? Miranda for me! She was hot!

Hiya,

Episode you want is BG5ep4. Yvonne's quote is below...

Yvonne – “Legally possible? If we gave a shit about what was legally possible we wouldn’t be in here…would we?”

Thank god for the resident Bad Girls anorak! ;) What would we do without you filbertfox?

Thanks :D

Yvonne "couldn't" adopt Denny "legally" because she was Twenty One which meant she was a full-fledged "adult".

I think the only way Denny could have been adopted if there was proof that Denny was Yvonne's child biologically.

So Yvonne & Denny had their own "adoption" inside the cell. It reminded me of when former US Headmistress Jean Harris who did 12 Years at Bedford Hills Women's Prison about how the "couples" would marry each other in the Prison by someone who oversaw the ceremony.

I would have loved to have seen Karen & Yvonne together too. I also thought it was nice that Karen took Yvonne to the pub for a drink but I also think that Karen realized how she allowed her "personal" feelings for Jim could her professional judgment.

I would have loved for Helen & Nikki to come into an episode and have Karen beg for Helen's help and Helen refuses her to remind her that she didn't listen to her then, so why should she help her now.

I don't think that Karin was refusing to help. I think she was just blinded by Jim.

I remember in season 4 a few times Niel states that he has looked for Helen but could not find her.

I think Helen had the same morals and values as Helen. I think they would have worked well together and they could have brough Jim down. I have yet to see season 5 but I am soon going to be purchasing it.

I haven't reached S5 yet, but I'm thoroughly rewatching the first three seasons and no matter when I watch S3Ep3, the Yvonne and Nikki scenes, I'm amazed by their chemistry. I mean it's always been there, they have been getting along fine but when they're discussing the lack of sex and empty prison beds at night, they bond even better.

Especially that scene when Yvonne comes down and questions Nikki like "Jeremy bloody Paxman". :) Nikki usually takes up the role of the conquerer, but in that scene she comes off as such a girlie girl with her facial expressions and the pink sweater and Yvonne is sort of exploring her options. I'm not saying they ought to have a relationship (and Yvonne wasn't up for it anyway), but their dynamics fit each other pretty well.

That said, I can't wait to see what all of you are talking about re: Karen and Yvonne in S5.

This whole scene has always made me uncomfortable. Maybe I should try to pick my way through it & figure out why. Maybe I'm the only person who feels this way about it, I don't know; it's never come up.

I guess I don't read them as having any chemistry. They're just two relative equals who respect each other--and each other's boundaries. This scene broaches those in ways I've never been easy with.

1) I have to assume Nikki's not serious. I mean, Yvonne's cool & all, but we're not... actually talking about her being at all *interested* in Yvonne, right? Far as she knows she's still (kinda sorta) with Helen. And wonderful as Yvonne is--let's be real here. Helen she is not.

(Trish is a type; Helen is Helen; Caroline is a type. They're all, however, classifiable/recognizable as Nikki's type. (imo.) Yvonne is... so not.)


2) So. If it's Nikki's nature to be this flirtatious, I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of her jealousy: it hardly seems justified. Iow, if I were Trish & had to put up with this kind of thing every night in the club, I'd've boxed her ears years ago: if she's coming on like this--rather persistently, seems to me--with a woman she's not really interested in or attracted to....

(Only way around this is to say: she's not coming on to her--not really, puhlease. She's Playing. It's Innocent. Meh. I can intellectually buy that but I'm not emotionally convinced: I'm not convinced because Yvonne's unhappy here. And Nikki's not helping her.)


3) Therefore my working assumption is: Nikki's winding Yvonne up. She's ribbing her (--as well as later with the tackle business). We're simply not supposed to view this as sincere as in Meaning Something for Nikki. She's just killing time, having a bit of a go at Yvonne, & enjoying her discomfort, to some extent.

(It's the latter I find problematic, even if I can dismiss the other stuff. She (and the show) have spent 2 years dignifying Helen's struggle with her sexuality. To the extent Yvonne's serious--not very--but she's still desperate: is it particularly kind of Nikki to turn her into a figure of fun?)


...The camera's on Yvonne almost the whole scene, we do not see Nikki's face as she moves closer to Yvonne as if to threaten/suggest a kiss. So it's about Yvonne, here, this whole thing, it's not really about Nikki. They're in public, this is totally not Nikki's style--it seems to me entirely inconsistent with the woman who's so loyally & single-mindedly pursued Helen for a season and a half, anyway--so, I keep coming back to the whole scene just feeling sort of irritating: what does Nikki think she's doing here? Because Yvonne's genuinely confused & sad. And horny, right, we get it. So it's possible that this is all just taking a while to sink in with Nikki, as usual: & when she gets that Yvonne's really pretty desperate--because for Yvonne to talk about being with women at all, even theoretically, is pretty effing majorly desperate--then Nikki comes up with a real solution, the gigolo thing. It's a perfect solution, actually, despite how goofy it seems on the surface: it meets Yvonne's needs in every way--right down to smuggling a guy in under Bodybag's nose.

So... ok, I guess I've explained it to myself well enough to get back to work for the moment.... Sigh.

The Nikki-elements of this interaction bother me: no matter how I turn it, she's either being emotionally inconsistent--fickle, as she's effectively accused Helen of being; or her behavior towards Helen hasn't been as meaningful as we've been led to believe (which I don't believe for a minute); or she's just being plain insensitive. Yvonne's never dissed Nikki's sexuality. She's never done or said word one to make me think she gives a shit. So why tweak the poor creature if she just wants some bloke--any bloke--for a shag?

Thats a very interesting way to put it, but I believe you are putting all the blame on Nikki.

When Yvonne sits down and starts talking to Nikki and asking about her sex life Nikki avoids it and tries to ignore it, because she can't tell Yvonne the truth and as we know she is a very honest person. When she puts her hand on Yvonne's shoulder it is more of a friendly :"I know what your feeling" way. It's Yvonne who slaps Nikki's hand away reading the lines wrong. Thats my take on it.

Then when they are in the room and Nikki comes to Yvonne she is being sensitive about the situation because she thinks Yvonne is the one with the knife and know's how hard it can be. We have to think that Nikki has already been in for over two years without a shag at the point and Yvonne is going on oh not but a few months so who is the one hurting in that case.
By the end of the scene they are both laughing about how they both misread the signals.

What we have to remember is that Yvonne was the one who started digging arround in Nikki's sex life. I think Nikki was being cavalier in her responses because she couldn't tell the truth, also some people can take more knowing that they have someone and are in love the the physical aspects of a relatinship and that is who Nikki is and not Yvonne.

IMO

Well, did anyone think she was serious or rather was it ever meant to be serious? I thought she was just sort of playing with Yvonne and her line "You never know... you might like it" was said for laughs only, no? I never thought she was interested in Yvonne. And that's part of the reason they bond so well, because they both know they're just playing... Or so it seemed to me. ;)

You think she was suggesting a kiss? I don't know, never looked at it that way. I think they both know they were joking about the getting-it-on thing. As for Nikki being inconsistent.. she's not interested in Yvonne per se, she's not trying to pursue her, if Yvonne changed her mind all of a sudden (which is pretty much impossible) and made a serious pass at Nikki, do you think Nikki would go for it. I think not. I don't view this particular situation as Nikki being unfaithful to Helen "in thought if not in deed".. I guess you could say it's just two friends discussing private issues.

Again, Yvonne wasn't really considering the option of being with a woman, was she? She just said she understood why some women are up for it. Doesn't mean she was ready to have her pick. It's possible that it was a plot device to set up Yvonne with a man. If she just came up to Nikki and said, "Hey yo, you got a number of some guy I could shag?" it wouldn't have worked out the way it did. :)

Thanks Xenaclark, your take is extremely reasonable, I stand swayed. And rather relieved.

I agree with your reading as well, Mad Maggot, I just needed to be reminded of the setting a bit more, how the whole scene played out.

Thanks guys! :) --e

Thanks ekny, this interaction between Nikki and Yvonne has never bothered me before, that was until your post that is... :)

I agree with your 3rd point, Nikki was winding Yvonne up. And she wasn't being insincere or making fun of Yvonne per se, but rather of Yvonne's situation. At first Yvonne was just plain horny, nothing serious or sad about that. It was only when she came down the stairs after her failed attempt with Josh that she turned all serious and sort of emotional. Nikki was still in the fun-frame-of-mind, she didn't know what transpired between Yvonne and Josh upstairs, basically that Yvonne has just been rejected, which also comes into play here. Coming to think of it, Nikki actually never took Yvonne serious in this whole situation (apart from the few seconds that she tought Yvonne had taken the knife) - even the solution she came up with was funny (and very practical). Yvonne wasn't really having an emotional crisis, more of a physical one, and who wouldn't sort of tease the other one about that?

PS Isn't it amazing how we can turn absolutely any episode of BG into either Nikki or Helen or both, even the ones they weren't in!