*apologies for the length of this post, wasn't sure how or where to condense it*

Ok, I know there’s probably going to bea sigh from some lesbians who were lucky enough to be sure of their feelings early on, and those who are tired of threads from unsure lesbians, but I really need to talk about this with women who actually are lesbians- most of my friends are straight. I really could use some feedback on this.

Some days I feel like I’m going to go insane if I don’t figure out what my sexual orientation is. I try to relax and just let it happen but I’m nearly 35 and feel like time is really passing. I haven’t been in a relationship since I was 27 or 28. I actually haven’t been on more than 2 dates with any one guy since then.

I have moved from state to state so meeting people wasn’t easy. I rarely met guys I was interested in. It really wasn’t a case of being too picky, either. I am currently totally disinterested in men. Sex in the past was difficult and only satisfying with 2 partners, both of which I felt I was in love with. Even with them it was a lot of work to make the sex completely physically satisfying.

Since I was 14 I was terrified I might be a lesbian. I’d always assumed I’d be married to a guy and have kids and wouldn’t stand for anything that strayed from that ideal picture. I was a total tomboy and played sports but also liked and still do- make up and relatively feminine clothes- not that those are tell tale signs of anything but well, is just another part to my being a walking paradox!

The reason I was worried I was a lesbian is because I had crazy-strong needs for some kind of caring and affectionate mother figure in my life (as my own was not this way). I would obsess over tv/movie stars or teachers who could fit into this category. I started that when I was 14, but also had the need for maternal figures as young as 7.

The need for a mother figure would usually dissipate, as I would start to develop feelings for a man. Usually the men I liked were married and were not going to cheat- nor was I, so they were unobtainable. I had only 2 boyfriends. Maybe I am a one eyed, green monster your wondering? Maybe, but generally I am considered attractive, am thin and educated and quite fun at times if I do say so myself.

So as I got older these mother figures continued. I had always fantasized about sex with women, but was uncomfortable with it. As I got older and more comfortable, I did this more often and now do almost exclusively. I started think and be okay with the notion that maybe I was bisexual.

After thinking I was bisexual, I actually felt freer. Though lately I’m tending to lean more toward the thought that I am a lesbian. I am perfectly willing to accept that, I just need to know.

What I don’t understand is why is it always women on tv and sometimes still professors who I am interested in? I absolutely adore the Helen and Nikki relationship, love reading the romantic fic about them- am totally into it. The same goes for another “on TV” lesbian couple (though only considered lesbian in the world of fanfic). I have had 2- day crushes on regular women my age who are real, but as soon as I find out they’re straight, the crush is gone. The women I am interested in are feminine and don’t seem to have any stereotypical lesbian mannerisms or characteristics so I never know if they’re gay.

I have slept with a woman once, and it was fairly recent. Though I hate to admit it, it was under the influence of a good bit of alcohol and she was straight. It was fantastic though. I loved it. Ultimately it wasn’t 100% physically satisfying but the whole touching and foreplay of it was pretty incredible. However, I didn’t and don’t have feelings for her, fortunately since she is straight.

How can I be 35 and still questioning this? I know there are plenty of older women and some married with kids who have gone through this. But I am not married; I have no reason to hide. My friends and family and especially myself are liberal people and would probably be ok with it. A decent amount of my friends know how I feel and are fine with it.

Is it weird I have never had a crush on a female friend of mine? I have had major emotional attachments and closeness with many, but no sexual interest.

I love this website and the intelligent women on here. I know no one can tell me whether or not I am a lesbian but I would love to hear some thoughts on this or personal situations of yours that might relate.

And what woman in her right mind would put up with me anyway? ?

Firstly you are not alone in your quest for discovering your sexuality.....Oz, my partner found a book for me which tells of womens struggles from all around the world finding their true preferences.........it is not as cut and dried as we might think........for many and varied reasons our feelings can differ from either one partner or gender at various times through out our lives.....I was amazed at how many women had felt the way I had and had personally struggled to find themselves.......many were older than me at 53 and some were around your age.....what was heartwarming was that in most cases they found what they had been looking for......

When I first read your post my instant reaction was simple.........you had yet to meet your soul mate.....whether it be male or female it has not happened for you as yet.....trust me when it happens you will know it and will not need to ask yourself any questions.....

Unfortunately patience is something we all lack when it comes to finding our true love......as naturally we want it right now.......but I am a firm believer that there is some one special for us all........and for you it will be the same.......probably when you least expect it you will find that person who makes your heart do flip flops and you will know it is right......

As you say no one can tell you what your sexual orientation is and in truth it doesn't matter either way..what does matter is that you find the person who makes you happy and fills your every need ......maybe try not to worry too much about it and let nature take it course........you sound as if you are an intelligent and open minded person prepared to follow your heart, so who ever comes your way you will be accepting of regardless of gender......

As you have experienced what it is like to be with a woman, then you will know if it felt right for you......if it did then don't question it........only you can be the one to choose which way to go...... I can tell you only of my own experience that being I was married for many many years and was never completely happy.....in leaving and now living with a woman I can honestly say that for the first time in my life I am truly happy and inlove.....I have been blessed to find my soul mate, but it took half a life time to do it........and like you I constantly questioned myself along the way....

Good luck in finding your happiness...but take heart in knowing there are plenty of women out there just like you searching and desperatley trying to find themselves and the path to what we all deserve........Happiness.......

Before I continue, it would probably be in your best interest to know that I am a good deal younger than yourself, so I'm not sure how much help or service I can be to you; however, I would love to try anyway !

Okay...here goes...

This lesbian certainly is not sighing or thinking any less of you as a 35 yr. old woman who is still confused about her sexuality. I honestly cannot blame you.

I can offer you only as much experience as I have been through for a reference. *hopeful smile*

In proclaiming (as well as labeling) myself a lesbian, I have a great deal of struggle with actual living and behaving as such. I was raised in a loving yet still somewhat distant Christian household. My father worked late nights and early mornings for a cold public service company and was rarely seen around the home. My mother, on the other hand, raised both my sister and I with a kind heart. She and I, unlike you and your mother, are quite close.

Even though I had a great maternal figure during my infancy and childhood, something happened to my family. My mother left my father. At the time, I blamed my father. No, I never blamed myself. I knew I hadn't done anything to cause their split/divorce. I blamed my father, which is why I chose to stay with my mother. The courts granted my parents joint custody over my sister and I.

Later, my sister (older) moved out and into our father's house. I remember the night she left. She didn't even say goodbye to me. Just left. I still haven't quite forgiven her, even though we ended up living together again some years afterward.

But I digress.

I learned several years later that it was my mother who had filed for the divorce. I never really turned against her. We are still close to this day.

Still, even growing up in my parents' household, I was exposed to many other female figures, one of which is still my favorite actress and a great role model in my life: Kate Mulgrew (or, when I was a small child, Captain Janeway). I remember looking up to her ever since I first watched Star Trek: Voyager.
I remember becoming quite attached to her and her character, not really to the show itself but to this woman, this strong personality.

I found myself becoming totally enthralled by her. I slowly, subconsciously replaced my own mother with her over the years, realizing that I had begun to lose respect for my mother....after all, she had been the one who had broken our family. Still, I never hated her. My mother thought that I needed to seek psychological treatment for my 'obsession' with Kate Mulgrew....the truth was that she was envious. Envious that I was no longer completely looking up to her as a guide and role model, but that Kate Mulgrew had become that figure in my life. I never ended up in a shrink's office though, despite my mothers 'concerns'.

Anyway...over the years, I felt more and more connected....emotionally, instinctively, and physically to members of the female sex. Even growing up in what I like to call a 'whole' family, I felt strangely attracted to this girl I went to school with, she had red hair. I remember wishing I had beautiful red hair like hers...and then I remember having fantasies about a kiss....and I never wanted that experience with a boy.

As I've gotten older, I've damn near forced myself into relationships with men, trying to stray away from the memories and impulses I experienced regarding women, in order to capture the approval of my 'religious' peers.

It was hard to come out to my mother, but when I did, she seemed to have known all along. She thinks it began with Kate Mulgrew. She thinks I had a sexual attraction to this woman, but it isn't true. I thought of Kate as more of a mother than anything else.

My father only just now knows, and that is because my sister betrayed my confidence and told him in a fit of revenge against me one day while I was trying to bring a slighly heated debate to an end amicably. My sister, of course, is a cold-hearted bitch who must always have the last word in EVERYTHING....so she shouted that I was going to Hell because I'm a lesbian. This hypocrite doesn't even believe in God, so I don't know who she thinks she is saying something like that.

But again, I digress.

I always feel like there's something wrong with me for being this way, especially when I attend church regularly, worship God, and study the Bible. I feel like my sin is worse than almost any other. Subsequently, I have abstained from homosexual actions...................but it's not fair.

I feel that perhaps I am meant to be alone, without a man...without a family. I don't even really want a child, but I do want to fall in love. I want to be with someone who loves me unconditionally. Men cannot satisfy this, I have discovered. Women can, but what good is all of that if God disapproves. I live my life to serve Him.....what He asks of me I want more than anything to do. To obey. I feel like God is telling me to abstain. And if it means I end up alone the rest of my life, so be it. He still loves me, but I must obey Him.

I want to...believe me, I do. But I want to fall in love almost just as much. I want to be with someone.....I want to live a happy life. And I feel that, without someone by my side....someone I truly love....I will never be happy. God will be happy with me...and he may even want me to find some other mode of happiness.

But it's so unfair.

I apologize for my ranting......but I want you to know that I share the uncertainty you are experiencing. I feel like...what if....I CAN be happy by forcing myself to choose God over myself and be with a man, even if I may never feel sexually attracted to him. But then, how unfair would it be to that poor man ??

Sometimes I wonder...am I really this way ???

I mean, I keep arguing with myself...and I feel this religious pressure to conform.....it's what makes me argue with myself, and my sexuality.

But..........if I am silent...and still..........deep in my heart, as cliché as it may sound, I know what I want. I want a woman.

Puck how i sympathise with you and your religious issues.........like you I too have always been brought up in a Christian enviroment and willingly chose to serve and obey God and all his rules...infact when I was a young girl I wanted to be a nun but not being a catholic this of course was out of the question.........I have always been a regular church goer and was a Sunday school teacher as wel.I raised my 2 children in the faith and tried to live a life that would secure me a spot in heaven...BUT I was not happy in my own personal life and struggled to understand why......whenever I came close to admitting the truth as to what was wrong, I would pull back and tell myself how wrong and sinfull my thoughts were....I truly believed if I prayed harder and more often my feelings would go away.......of course they didn't.......

Now I have left the Church all together and live with Oz so to my folks I am damned to hell and they will have no part of me or my new life......it has broken my heart to think that they could be so rigid but then I have to respect that this is their conviction and there is nothing other than me leaving Oz that will change it.....

I have talked to others who have had the same struggle and have been interested in how they have come to terms with their beliefs and yet still lived a lesbian life....
One person I did speak with was a Priest who had to leave his Church because he was gay and had been trying for years to deny and hide it.......he said to me this.....
What one sin is greater than another?........We are not perfect nor could ever be and therefore we are all guilty of committing one sin or another.......if God was to judge us for all of our transgretions then surely we would all end up in hell.....

We live in the world and are part of it so we deal with sin on a daily basis...I believe that if we try our best to be honest and faithful and show love and compassion then we are less likely to seriously sin......I wish I could tell you that same sex was not against God's law, but I can't and you know that yourself......I still struggle with it myself....but what i do feel is that if God is indeed a God of love he would have some understanding and want us to be happy.........I have had to come to terms with the fact that if God is going to condem me for loving a woman and forget about all the other things in my life that have been both scriptual and decent, then He is not the god I thought Him to be.......

Also I would like to think that whilst He is ever present in our daily lives He would pay us the respect of staying out of our bedrooms.....when you think about it that is only a small part of what we do and who we are........

I still stuggle at times and try hard to justify my lifestyle, but then I think........well the day I meet my Maker I will be bold enough to ask.........Are you prepared to send me to hell for loving a woman when you can send a convicted murderer to heaven for simply repenting?

These are of course just my personal views and I believe we all have a personal relationship with God so no one other than Him can judge us.....

Puck I do hope you find your way to true happiness with a clear conscience and still keep your faith.......

Thank you, 4us !

Yes, I have thought about what your Priest friend told you. I've told myself the same thing many times over.

I believe it's true, and I agree with you.


But....well, anyway...back to Synchronicity..

Actually, what 4us said is perfectly accurate, as far as how much I agree with what she said.

Concentrate on what makes you happy....who makes you happy. I think then you will have found your answer.

Thanks for your replies 4us and Puck.

True I haven't met my soul mate, though I did believe my boyfriend from 8 yrs ago was probably that. I think our souls were connected, but it just wasn't going to work. I didn't have an attraction to him after a year and there were too many external factors getting in the way, mainly a 15 yr age difference.

So as a result I've been alone since then. The problem is I can't find gay women who are my type. I know they exist, but like I said, it's hard to tell if they are gay and so far none of them have been. I really have erased guys from my radar. Unless a male comes along who can be a blip on my screen, it ain't happening.

I definitely subscribe to the belief that sexuality isn't black and white. I like the Kinsey and Klein theories that sexuality is fluid and falls into a scale of 1-(?8) and lots are in between, maybe depending on where they are in their lives. Though not everyone falls in the middle, there are probably plenty at each end. But I guess I don't like not knowing where I am. I like concrete things.

I feel untruthful all the time. I'm on a lesbian dating website and have labelled myself as a lesbian (they make you choose lesbian, straight or bi). So then I have to explain to some women I am talking to that I'm a lesbian but not really. I have been emailing a cute lady and she gave me her #, but I just can't call her. I don't know know what to say and if I just play it cool like I would with a guy and be smooth (though genuine) then I have to explain I don't know if I'm even gay. Sucks.

4us, what was that book your partner gave to you? If you don't mind my asking.

And Puck, I can soooo relate to your childhood. That's exactly what I went through with some TV people. Funny, when Kate Mulgrew was younger- this was in the 80's, she was in A Stranger Is Watching, I also focused on her as a mother figure. She wasn't on a series so I couldn't see her much so it faded, but I get it. :) My mother also knew I was obsessed and would get upset and felt threatened that someone took her place.

As far as religion goes, well I could write a master's thesis on my thoughts on that subject. ******There is a wonderful book by Barbara DeAngelis (she's a little cheesy, but her points on life just absolutely changed my world)she has many books, but the best one to read at first is Confidence, Finding It And Living It. It will talk about spirituality a lot. It will show you that you are a unique person and your creator made you and only one of you. If you bottle up and hide what you are there will be no one else to fill what this (God, Universe- whatever-Christian or not, it applies to all) has created and it would be a complete disservice to your creator to not allow yourself to be who you are.*****

So please don't let the multitude of translations of the bible hold anything over you. No one knows how to translate the bible and it's obvious 50 billion (or however many people there are in this world) will never agree and hold stubbornly and emphatically to their own beliefs. If you let this take your freedom, then you have let one small fraction of the world's populatin dictate who you are supposed to be. Follow the Universe, it wants what you want!

Wow deep posts ladies-dont you think its amazing that we can all talk to each other like this??
Synchronicity...

Well I cant believe you wrote this paragraph-these words could and regularly do come from my mouth! Your not alone :hug2

Punk... I truy hope you find a woman to love and to love you in return, and that you can feel at peace with yourself in life-good luck :hug2

Thank you so much, Synch ! That means a great deal to me...

Oh and Katie as well, thank you !!


Kate did run on Ryan's Hope for several seasons, just to point out an interesting fact.... :) She also regulared on St. Elsewhere for a few eps. *teehee* I know too much about her. lol.

Anyway, I'm glad we have much in common...especially when it comes to childhood... :hug2

Synch.........I have a friend who like you has yet to experience a relationship with a woman but would like very much to.....she too has joined a female dating service and has made many new friends..whilst she has not as yet found her life partner she has made new friends with whom she can have platonic dinners and outings.........she worried about how they would feel when they found out that she had never been with a woman, but so far has not had any problems....she has been open and honest right from the start which you too need to be.......it is sad that you feel as if you are being untruthful and unnecessary........you have nothing to be ashamed of nor anything to hide...you are you and the person you are is the one the right lady will fall in love with.......it is no good trying to be some one you are not........it sounds as if you are lacking some confidence in yourself and that is a shame as no doubt you have alot to offer the right person......

Don't worry about labels, apart from being confusing at times it is usually not necessary.....I mean when I introduce myself I don't say Hi I'm 4us and a lesbian......lol.......too many people worry about labels and often draw wrong conclusions by them......

As for your gaydar........trust me mine is almost non existant.....actually we have just come in from lunch and the woman who waited our table stopped to chat......now we have been there a few times before and spoken with her.....during the conversation I called Oz honey and the lady smiled, at first I thought nothing of it until she went on to tell us that she had no partner as the woman she was with would not accept her kids.........at first I thought I had misheard her but when we left and I asked Oz she laughed and said didn't I know she was gay.........well I never even thought it at all and yet Oz knew from the first meeting.......so don't feel bad if you can't pick them either........lol

I know it must be hard to be on your own and want a partner, but don't sell yourself short or settle for anything other than the best.......when you least expect it , it will happen.......for now join in and enjoy this mb....there are lots of lovely women on here both single and coupled , but all with one agender and that is to have fun and help out.....you would be amazed at how often one of us has had to reach out a hand and give either advice or just be there to listen.....all you need to do is ask........

As for the religious issues......well like you I could write a book........but you are dead right no one should stand in our way of happiness........

What saddens me most is that religion can cause so much pain and heartache when used to attack rather than reach out in love as it is meant to do....it seems that many so called christians find it easier to find fault and condem rather than look for the good and praise.......

The book Oz bought me was called..Lesbians in menopause.........women who became lesbians in maturity........I can't put my hands on it at the moment but will look for it and let you know the author and correct title.......you are probably a little too young yet to worry about menopause but the stories of the women who found themselves changing partners and the reasons why was amazing......

Keep smiling....... :)

:eek This is so interesting!

I believe I would be you at age 35, S, if I hadn't already happened to realize I am in fact very gay (haha).

I also started out with women from television at age 14 and started labelling myself 'bi', because it wasn't as difficult. As bi I could still 'be normal' and marry a man. Yeah, so I thought. But to my horror, I only became more and more lesbian instead of the other way around. :lol1 It was actually thanks to N&H that I stopped feeling ashamed of loving women. :)

I can also relate to what you're saying about not being attracted to very stereotypical dykes. Neither am I. So I end up falling for straight, married women (on and off screen! LOL), who breaks my heart. :lol:

From what it sounds like, I think it's more likely you'll end up meeting a woman than a man. Like in my case. Because yeah, I am not 100 % lesbian. More like 95... Haha. But I don't fell in love with men. Not like I do with women. Not even close.

And I'm oh so glad. :D :wub:

Well, I actually took a leap and called a woman I have been emailing briefly online. The conversation was great, I felt like I known her forever. It was weird. She's moving out of state though- of course. I will meet up with her next weekend, I think at the very least she's be a good friend. That was a huge step for me, I'm not really afraid of admitting my feelings for women, but the first call is paralyzing for me and I guess a little more difficult because it's the first woman I'm meeting as more than a possible friend.

4us, it is good to hear about your friend's positive experiences with the online stuff and telling people she hasn't been with a woman yet. That was part of what made me finally call this woman after she gave me her number 2 weeks ago. Thanks for the book info, I may check it out.

Everyone's responses have helped me because I have realized that there actually may be a good deal of women out there who are feeling the same way or went through very similar situations in the past. I was able to call this woman because I just thought, well maybe we'll actually have a ton to talk about, relating to "coming out" type of situations.

I can also relate to what you're saying about not being attracted to very stereotypical dykes. Neither am I. So I end up falling for straight, married women (on and off screen! LOL), who breaks my heart.

Elidakristina...How very true this scentence is to me! Thought I was the only person to be feeling like this for years.... wow its good to hear you all talking like this-good luck to you all that the next beautiful straight looking woman you fall for is actually looking for a woman just like you :hug2

Ks x

Sync and others,

I just came across this thread today; it is refreshing to see a genuine conversation on a message board. Thank-you to you in particular, Synchronicity, for your honesty.

So, to throw another opinion on the heap...

As for my background, I am 30 and have always been attracted to women in the most textbook of homosexual ways. I also was married for a few years (to a man) when I was 19-23 (trying to be straight, he was my best friend, other extenuating circumstances). He is a wonderful individual and I would still consider him a kindred spirit who is the person who has understood me better than anyone during my lifetime. BTW, I told him I was bi before tying the proverbial knot to give him *some* warning; I was still hoping I could make that true. Although I always felt like and undercover lesbian when married, I developed an understanding of what women could see in a hetero relationship through my deep regard for my husband. Incidentally, I also discovered just how many myriad legal perks there are to marriage.

But, as I matured (that's what happens when you get married as a teenager), continued to have strong attractions exclusively to women, and finally actually met some out lesbians I started to see there was the possibility of making a life together with a woman. I knew I had to leave.

Since then I've have relationships with women who were bi, lesbian, unsure, and straight. Like you, I appear and tend to like feminine women (from the Ellen/Gillian Anderson/Nikki Wade character level to somewhere short of Rini Williams' character). I'm quite sure of my sexuality and in fact really identify with Nikki Wade's character in that respect. I was as open minded to labels as they come when I first started having sexual relationships with women (*I* had been married for Chrissakes).

So, what is my point? It is that I absolutely applaud the brave self-exploration you are doing. I am finally in agreement that we most find "true love" when we are working the least at it, but are getting out of the house. For you, it sounds like going on some casual dates, interacting with men and women who want a short term relationship, and spending time in reflection of what you want your future to be is absolutely spot on for what will help you be happy.

That being said, over time I have also developed a little paranoia when it comes to straight and bi women (another bit that BG did brilliantly with Nikki). This is the result of experience; it is difficult to be part of someone's fetish, experiment, or need to heal their mother/father/power relationship when you are actually in love. Additionally, I'm ready to settle down and I want a woman who loves herself enough to appreciate her own unique needs and is confident that being with a woman long-term will fulfill them. So, you may find some resistance or women who are less than understanding on your journey. Please don't take it personally. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you; just some of us lot of 30-something attractive lesbians are in wife mode.

And that being said, if I met my own sexy PO today with a light Scottish accent who fell for me as well, I'd likely toss that all in the bin.
:)


Cheers and best of luck,
F

:eek Somehow I missed Maddie's comment about not being attracted to very many stereotypical dykes, and I just have to jump right in and add that I have quite often fallen hopelessly 'in love' with straight, feminine women as well....both on and off the screen. lol..

Sorry, just had to slip that in before I forget.

Anyhow, Flutur:

I am in agreement (through experience) with what you have added to this discussion and, though I am quite a lot younger than most of the members on this board and seem to know what and who I want in life to make me happy, I feel that perhaps I am just as vulnerable to the questions Synch has posed to herself.

Right now, I want what I think everyone wants: someone with whom I can share grief, sorrow and suffering, as well as happiness and contentment. Someone I can cry with, lean on, and stand by no matter how weathered our hearts may be by tragic, stressful, or just damn right annoying circumstances and people.

Everyone deserves this. Everyone.

Good luck to you, Synch. I have no doubt that, if you do not find this someone, he or she will find you. And then you will know.

Cheers N Love!
Kat

Thanks, ladies, great feedback. Flutur, yes, that's what concerns me, women who are afraid of unsure women. I can't eliminate that fear from anyone's mind as of yet. One thing I'm not looking for and never have, is a short term relationship. They just don't work for me. I can't be intimate with someone I'm not in love with or at least feel secure enough in the relationship and my feelings to be that intimate. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, I have loosened up on that as I've gotten older. Overall it just doesn't interest me. Actually my physical/sexual feelings for women are strong enough and obvious enough that I know that's not the question. My interest in men has been fluctuating between 0 and 1% for the past 5 yrs. That's pretty low.

My friendships in the past with some platonic female friends have been intense enough and complimentary enough that I know I'm good there. I just don't know if being in a relationship with a women is going to be 100% satisfying and feel completely right. Watching Helen and Nikki and reading fanfic about them- feels completely right and makes me all mushy. A few movies and other fanfics about other show's characters make me feel the same way.

Flutur, with you, you always knew, so it's understandable you'd be weary of people like me. However, I'm hoping that since the women I am attracted to are feminine like me, that the chance is higher they figured this stuff out later in life or are doing so now and will be understanding and open. I imagine I will know very soon into dating a woman - for a little while- whether it is right. I'm meeting 2 this week, so I'll let ya know!

Good luck then !

I'm just DYING to know how this works out !

Thanks Puck. I'm a little nervous! Both these women seem like great and interesting people so at worst, hopefully I will have made some cool friends.

I just read all these post again and the one common factor in them all was simple............we just all need and want to find that one person who makes us happy and fills all our needs.........I think the first thing to finding this tho is to truly find ourselves................I have been told so many times over the years that you have to love and respect yourself before you are capable of truly loving others........I never really "GOT" that and now i believe it is what holds us back.......if we can be self assured within ourselves as individuals it stands to reason that we would have the confidence needed to either start or keep a relationship going........so often our own self doubting and loathing gets in the way of our relationships and can even cause them to crumble......

For me personally it has been a constant fight to get over the past and stop allowing it to influence my future........my own kids have even told me this.that I need to let go........but it is hard and especially at my age as I have carried it for so long.........I know they are right and I need to do this as it has caused dints in my relationship with Oz at times.......unlike a man tho she is more intune and sympathetic to it but at the end of the day I cannot expect her to have to keep picking up the pieces.........like I have said many times before, it took me half a life time to find her and true happiness, so for me my main goal now is to try harder to think better of myself and gain more confidence in my abilities and my attitude to life...........finally i know that to be true to myself and Oz I have to love and respect not only her but myself.........

Maybe this is something we all ned to think about before we even embark upon any relationships as from my own experience i know it can save alot of unnecesssary unhappiness.........

Sounds like good advice eh! all we need to do is put it into practice and that's the hard part........so who's going to go first............lol..........

Good luck to us all...........

Great advice 4us. I have been on the self growth journey a long time and it may play a small part in what I'm going through now- in a good way. Self growth is often a roller coaster though, and many times you become stagnant. I think your remark on growth is dead on, but possibly even more importantly is not necessarily just your own growth, but encouraging the growth in others (your partner especially). You can grow as much as you can but if you don't encourage it in another or if they don't enocourage it in you, that will definitely lead to rough times ahead.

Here'a a link to that Klein grid that is based on sexuality as a slightly changing thing for many people. I'd love to hear how people scored on this, just out of curiousity. It takes a little while to complete, but is fascinating probably- no matter how sure you are of your sexuality.

http://members.tde.com/ben/kleingrid.html

How many of you know people who are bisexual and have been bisexual for a long time and it didn't just turn out to be a step in their dicovery of being a lesbian or gay man? I've just been wondering about that and how often that's how some people discover their sexuality or how they deal with it in the beginning vs. someone who has been assigning that label to themself for many, many years.

Synch,

Good luck on the date, and thanks for posting the link to the Klein scale. I'd heard of it, but never really seen it. And, warning, this got really more lengthy than I intended. So, to dust off the soap box and get on with it...

Synch, I know of several people personally who consider themselves bisexual. The closest one lives underneath me and likely hears me typing this. In addition I could think of about three people immediately in my circle of friends/neighbors/acquaintences who would fall in that category.

Mind you, it is indeed such a big category as to be almost meaningless. This is part of the marketing problem of the label "bisexual." Really any label is limited, but this one particularly so. Individuals can use it as a temporary label on the way to heterosexuality or homosexuality; to denote a stable desire for a long-term relationship with someone regardless of gender or an interest in threesomes with their husband. It even includes generally straight or gay people open to the occasional experience on the other side of the fence if they choose to do so.

So, IMHO, I wouldn't worry about it too much. More important than any label is the individual. All any of us can do is be straightforward about who we are and ignore the static regardless of categories. Beyond sexual orientation categories, I know how it feels to be in categories of "foriegn", "funny talking", "minority", and "working class" (to put it nicely). Who has time for it?

This was one of the nice aspects of the N+H relationship; there was essentially no "Am I bi? Am I gay?" discussion, but lots of focus on "can this work?" and "do you want this?", which is really what matters. Sure, I feel I'm gay; that's honest. Sure, I am a little wary of people under the bi label, which is also honest. So if you are bi, I want to find out more about it and about you. What do *you* mean? In the end it really is more important how you respond to "Tell me you love me." and if you feel without hesitation "I want to be with a woman", than what label you have.

And for the record, there really are lesbians who are feminine, don't give up hope! I'm one of them. Although, I have to admit a little Nikki Wade style swagger along with the lipstick can be kind of cute... Anyway, if you don't mind me asking, where-ish are you? I'm living in California near a large city right now. It is so common to be gay here that it seems women feel free to be as feminine or butch as they like. What I've noticed is far more feminine gay women than when I've been in country settings here and in the UK. It's almost like butching it up was a code to find each other. Has anyone else noticed that? It could be a time/trend thing as well.

Well, this box is getting creaky and I'd best get off it. The best of luck to you, Synch. Good for you for having the courage to go on the dates. Relax, they are probably just as nervous you'll frown on something about them. If all goes well, maybe you can set up some dates to watch the BG vids as a start for your own discussions?

Cheers,
xo
F

Just on the butch.......femme thing.........Oz and i went to our first Pride Fest and whilst there were quite a few butch, and I did take notice most of them were young I was surprised at many of the women there that never would I have ever thought to be lesbian.....now being relatively new to this I don't really know what a "Lesbian" is suppose to look like........and I think more often than not we are stereotyped and wrongly so just quietly....for us it has become almost a game of see if we can pick them...where we live there are many same sex couples and some more obvious than others........usually I am way off base and then I wonder if people look at us and know we are a couple.....but for the most part the women that I know to be lesbians are gorgeous feminene and rather sophisticated......ummmmm unlike me.........lol.........I am a typical Nana ...sweet lil ole lady lesbian.....apparently i am what is known as an OWL.....(older and wiser lesbian).......lol..........as for Oz she is definetly not femme in appearance but is very girly in her likes......eg.cutsie pretty things.......but is not really butch to the extreme either........she is kinda at the bottom end of the butch scale.........and gorgeous........lol...

One of the girls on the mb suggested all lesbians should wear some sort of rainbow band or such so as to be easily identified......yea that would probably be a huge help as like you I am hopeless at knowing......

Regardless of our sexual preferences just think how boring it would be if we were all alike......isn't it wonderful and exciting knowing we are all unique in our own special ways .....and me well those who know me will identify with this..... :devil

Okay synch to satify your curiousity I answered truthfully all of the questions........here is how I answered..........

Sexual attraction......past.........4...........present............7 ..........ideal........7

S. behaviour..........past..........1 ...........present............7.............ideal........7

fantasies................past..........5 ...........present...............7............ideal........7

emotinal.................past........7...............present.............7.............ideal.........7

social..................past...........6..............present...........6................ideal..........6

self indent.........past..............2...............present............7...............ideal........7

life style...........past..........1........present..........7..................ideal............7

If I understood it all correctly then I feel I answered honestly without really having to think too hard or dwell on any one topic.......

So for me I think I am definetly gay and very happy.........thank you for sharing and it was an interesting quiz.....

i completely understand what you're going through synch. i'm 24 and in the last few years have been struggling with my sexuality. i still don't know what to "label" myself with, if i'm bisexual or gay. i just don't know yet and it's frustrating the hell out of me. i think these feelings have been there, lying dormant, but it took the likes of our helen & nikki to awaken them.
obviously while i'm still going through this very few people in my life know, i guess you could say, the real me. on the MB i'm close to 4us & oz (and have met them in real life) and have always been able to talk to them. closer to home (sydney), all my friends who are gay know, all happen to be men.....and they're always there if i need to talk or bitch or whine.....haha, whatever really.
i've resigned myself to just live life and not hold back......things will work themselves out in time. i think i'll just have to get out there and experience things and see what i really want. anyway i'm off to london next week so that'll be a good start!
i hope your meetings go well synch, will be thinking of you :)

Yes, that was me, love !

Well, seeing as how people are constantly breaking down the barrier of stereotypes about what a Lesbian looks like, I just think it'd be much simpler and also a tip-off to a wee bit of Gay Pride.

Although, I have to say that I feel slightly awkward about wearing such a distinguishing marker of my sexual orientation.....I mean, in a lot of ways I feel like maybe I just don't want everyone who sees that band on my wrist knowing I'm gay. It's not because I'm ashamed of who I am, it's simply a matter of privacy.
It's not really anyone's business but my own, right ? That is, until I meet the right woman and fall in love....but then, it shouldn't be because she saw me in Starbucks wearing a rainbow-patterned wristband.....not all that witty or romantic, anyway...lol....and I'm a hopeless romantic....truly, I am...

I have plenty of straight friends who don't go flaunting off how many people they slept with or what they like to do when it comes to sex......and I really can't stand that sort of talk anyway, be it about men or women. I think it's degrading and sheerly a poor mode of entertainment. Don't people have anything more in-depth to talk about ? Why does it all have to be about what turns you on, etc etc....

If I don't like others wearing t-shirts and such that point them out as nymphomaniacs, etc.....why should I have any special privilege as a homsexual to wear a rainbow band.....

Anyway, I just don't associate with that type of discussion unless it's mature and focused on a deeper, more profound type of thinking. Sex is a private thing to me....and it represents, not only a physical expression of love, but an emotional bond that reflects trust.

If someone asks me, I will be straightforward and honest. Yes, I'm gay.

If I have to label myself, which, in this day and age seems to be the expectation, I would say that I'm a Lesbian. But, in my opinion, labeling myself is not a burden on my conscious or social life. In fact, it's rather the opposite. It's a confident term I use to let people know that I know who I want, that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind of that fact.

This does not mean I look down on anyone who may disagree with my view, or who may see it differently. Not at all.

I am comfortable with the label Lesbian. It's derogatory slang terms like Lezbo, Lezzie, Homo, Queer, Dyke (in the stereotypical, generalized sense of the word).


Wow, I totally just..........................ranted...

Well anyway...........

Ermm....whoah, lost my train of thought !


OH RIGHT !

Where abouts art thou in California, Flutur ? I'm currently residing in ever-growing Corona.....about an hour (if that) away from Los Angeles...and about a half-hour from Anaheim.

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and thought maybe it was time i gave my personal experience.

I realized at a really young age myself that i was a lesbian, but living where i live and my family's very religious standpoint i was afraid to let it show. I, for many years led two lives, one for my family and church, and the other for my friends and lovers. I can tell you from experience that it was very painful to do and i applaud you synch for realizing what you want and trying to get it!

Sorry if i'm stumbling around a bit i'm not very articulate when it comes to this topic so please bare with me.

I know the subject of religion has come up in this thread and i thought i would share what a pastor told me a few months ago.
He said " God creates love and happiness. If God wants you to be loved and happy with another woman, man is in no position to judge you because this man was also made by God, and God makes us all different so we can learn to love and appreciate everyone" I"m sure that's not his exact wording but it's pretty similar to what he said!

With that i wish you much luck in your search to find happiness Synch and a little advice: The women on the board are great listeners and are great friends they have helped me through a really tough time as of recently and i highly appreciate them!

You "guys" are so awesome, I'm getting verklempt. Really. 4us, thank you for posting your results. Fascinating isn't it? I re-took it yesterday from 6 months ago and it changes so much. My past was almost exactly the same, present changes a lot - even my ideal changed a lot which was the most interesting of all. My ideals have changed, which mean my "fear factor" has changed.

I guess it's fair that I post my results since I'm the one who posted the link:
(I copied your post 4us and entered my results)
Sexual attraction......past.........2...........present............7 ..........ideal........6

S. behaviour..........past..........1 ...........present............4.............ideal........7

fantasies................past..........3 ...........present...............6............ideal........6

emotinal.................past........5...............present.............7.............ideal.........7

social..................past...........5..............present...........4................ideal..........5

self indent.........past..............1...............present............5...............ideal........7

life style...........past..........1........present..........3..................ideal............3

Bisexuality is interesting and as you can see, even with people who feel they are lesbians, it's not all 7,7,7,7,7,7,7. There's so much inbetweem, especailly when you factor in people's past.

Hypothesizer, I love what your pastor said to you about being homosexual. It's dead on with what I feel. Puck- pay attention! :)

Flutur, I'm in Atlanta. Plenty of gay people here, just don't know where to find the ones who aren't at the bars. The online thing is working- or I think it is, I'll know soon. At least I'm meeting lesbians and it could lead to meeting more lesbians.

The very same thing about the H&N relationship that makes it fantastic is the same thing that makes me wonder if it makes people who are straight question their sexuality just because it is so superbly written? I mean, who wouldn't fall in love with one of them? Who wouldn't get all mushy over their relationship? Do straight women feel like this over them? Does the actiong and writing of the 2 characters make people think they are gay when indeed they are straight? I'll have to rip and convert all my DVD's so my straight friends in the US can watch it and give me insight. Icnidentally, I am currently ripping all the Bad Girls episodes with H&N and editing out all the parts that aren't theirs so I can get a great look at their relationship and really study it. And well also cause I'm in love with Simone (or Helen- I'll take either one).

If anyone wants copies when I'm done, I'd be happy to make some. My computer is pretty slow though. It's taken me 3 weeks to get through 2 1/2 seasons. I hope to be done in a week and a half. I'm not a brillant editor, but just have been mucking my way through. It serves it's point.

Oh and about the rainbow identifiers for lesbians. I was a graphic designer in previous life and have so many issues with the logos they have for lesbians- rainbows and the labrys, etc. That's the problem, lesbians need a cool logo and maybe more of us would wear it around. Just because lesbians are stereotyped as not having style doesn't mean they don't have style!

I’m better at being a wallflower when it comes to discussions like this, so we’ll see how this comes out.

I’ve not had a hard time accepting that I am gay. I’ve always had a tendency to march to my own drum, so being gay was just a matter of adding some auxiliary percussion. However, I do believe that my ability to accept myself has been largely due to the fact that I learned how to isolate and insulate myself from normal social interactions, unfortunately theses skills are now proving to be a tad problematic. I have a hard time opening up to people and can only assume that I project an air of inapproachability…yeesh so many words, I think I’m just trying to say I’m shy. I wouldn’t change who I am though, being myself makes me happy. I only have one lifetime in which to be quirky, and I’m going to make the most of it.


…Oh, by the way, if anyone knows where I can take my gaydar in for a tune up, I’d love you forever.


Just as an additional aside, what is it with Kate Mulgrew!? I had a similar fixation with her when I was younger!

Kate Mulgrew, that is funny.

My two big ones were Stefanie Powers and Dana Delany.

Yeah, being okay with being alone with yourself can be a double edged sword. I also find it easy to be alone/isolated, yet it makes my life more difficult in many ways.

The only reason why I ever liked China Beach was because of Marg Helgenberger and Dana Delany.

Yeah, lonely.

I know, it's bizarre how many lesbians share a fixation with Kate Mulgrew !


I'm so glad I wasn't/am not alone in that respect....


Aaaaaaaaaanyway...

*paying attention*

Thank you for commenting on the religious strain I've been experiencing ! It is much appreciated advice !

I won't go back into me too much...I just wanted to point out that my mother wants me to join a church--I mean..actually become a member....and I'm just...not sure I should....if someone could PM me with a lil bit of advice or their opinions regarding a lesbian as a member of a Protestant Christian church...please do !


Okay, Loon...

I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say that your courage to input into this discussion is greatly admired. I know I was waiting to hear from you and I'm sooo glad that you were able to overcome your shyness to add to what we've been talking about ! :hug2

Something that makes me a tad bit awkward, especially when it comes to the social aspect of being a Lesbian, is that my closest friends are all straight. I just haven't met any truly gay friends where I live. I suppose the hardest thing about not having anyone I can relate to on that level is a bit tense, considering that when my mates start chatting it up about their male siggos (significant others) and/or other men that they find extremely attractive, I tend to go very quiet. I can't really add on to the discussion, and if it starts to get too just....out of control...I leave. They all know I really just don't fit into the same mold with them...and, truthfully, I can't seem to talk to any one of them about my attractions...they never ask me about my 'girl' troubles...nothing like that....I mean, I could strike up that conversation with any one of them, and indeed I have done so many times before, but I find that such a conversation lasts for about two minutes and goes something like this: "I'm sure you'll find somebody, Kat....so anyway....did you see the new Pirates of the Caribbean movie ?! I'm just DYING over Orlando Bloom !!!"

It bothers me mostly because it's not like I'm a position to just...move to a new city, like San Francisco (to be stereotypical), and meet gay people...form new friendships....

It's like....if I am on campus and someone is gay....it's very unlikely that our paths will cross and a friendship will form. People at the university, as well as the high schools I attended just weren't openly gay, even if there were any at all. It's like, you'd never know it if they were unless you asked...and you really couldn't ask because one, they'd get all offended and deny it or two, they'd just look at you as if you were hitting on them and run away to all their friends to talk about how gay you are and how it's creepy that you tried to pick them up for a date...even if that wasn't your intention at all.....

Bizarre, non ?

Pas vraiment.

When I finished high school, I moved away to go to University…of course I ended up choosing a small University where you can count the number of single out gay people on one hand. I don’t have any gay friends in real life, and I lost contact with all but one or two acquaintances from high school, so I completely understand the frustrations of having few people to talk to…of course in my case I’d probably be considered creepy no matter what kind of conversation I try to strike up…maybe it’s just my introduction, “Seen any good bugs lately” seems to cause people to back away slowly…

Now you see...those are the types of random things I say, just to start the ball rolling ! I do it quite frequently, actually.

BTW, to answer your question..I saw a rollie pollie/pill bug the other day...and I just HAD to step on it......not a big rollie pollie fan... :rofl

Oh, you should see what happens to pill bugs when you accidentally forget to turn off the heat lamp…absolutely riveting…they don’t move…for hours…it’s then that you realize that you may have just roasted your specimens, and the resounding thud of your head hitting the lab bench can be heard echoing through the corridors…


Sorry, completely off topic…

Hypo it would be nice to think that what your Pastor said to you was as simple as it sounded, but without going into all the scriptures I do think that God had a different idea for us as couples when he created us....the one part that is so true is that no man has the right to judge us here on earth and yes God does want us to be happy but He also wants us to be obedient to him and if we do look back at the times of Sodom and Gomora ,(misspelt I am sure.lol) it is plain to see what He thought of same sex relationships........I am totally committed to Oz but in truth I know what I am doing is against God.....for me personally there is no ammount of putting things into any kind of justifying or bargaining...I know that what i am doing is a sin...but it is MY choice and I am prepared to pay the consiquences for it........I just pray that I will not be judged for this alone and that the rest of my life and the things I have done in accordance with His laws will count for something.....

On the other hand I would never dare to tell you or anyone else who asked that they were doing wrong as I believe our relationship with God is personal and we all have our own choices and decisions to make in what we can live with and know to be the truth.........what i am trying to say is that for each of us individually we have our own reasons and beliefs and as long as we can live with our choices then it is for no one else to judge us..........

I will stand by what i have said earlier tho...What one sin is greater than another?

We are none of us perfect and God knows that...........

Thank you so much, 4us..you have helped me a great deal !!

Because of your straightforwardness...I see now that I really only have two choices and that whichever I pick, I have to make sure it is one I can live with happily.

I can either:

1. Live in obedience of God and remain celibate for the rest of my life.

or

2. I can choose to disobey God in order to obtain some sense of emotional happiness with someone I truly love here on this Earth.

The thing about choice 1 is that, even if I abstain from sexual intimacy with a woman, I am not sin-free. I will still disobey God in one way or another, so it's like trading one bad habit or addiction with another seemingly lesser bad habit or addiction. Still, sin is sin. No one sin can really be all that worse than another, I really believe that.

Then, with choice 2, I recognize my flaw and that sin is a part of being human. This fact, of course, is not a license to go out sinning and causing havoc. I'm not that type of person at all. Rather, I love to help people and...well, make a positive difference.

In my heart, I know that remaining alone for my entire lifetime would just about kill me.....it's not a life I can live and be happy with, so, after analyzing my choices and reflecting on them in great detail......I know which of the two I am going to live by.

I know that being homosexual is a sin, but I cannot force myself into a corner like that for my entire life....I just can't. Therefore, it would seem that I already have made my choice, doesn't it ?

Okay, I need to ask. I've heard so many different stories about what the Bible ("aka God", which I don't really believe it is, since humans obviously wrote it down...) says about homosexuality. I read somewhere that only the relationship between two males are mentioned and that it says it shouldn't be allowed. But that women are never mentioned. Is that true? If not, I'd love it if someone could give me some direct quotes from what exactly is written.

Me, I'm having a hard time with this 'following every word'-thing. Don't misunderstand me; I am absolutely fascinated by religion and I wish I could believe more, but I don't see how one can possibly live after what was written thousands of years ago. It's a new era. I think God knows it too.

Okay i just wanted to clear something up. A few people have said that the quote i wrote was from my pastor. It wasn't! I was kicked out of the church i grew up in for being homosexual! The pastor who said that is the pastor for our local presbyterian church and he is also the police department chaplain in the area.

4us i completely agree with you on how we each have a seperate relationship with God but it's hard for me to believe in God if everyone i used to respect and love is telling me that even though he created me the way he did i am condemned to hell because he won't accept me!

Sorry if i stepped on any toes and i'm not disagreeing with you at all 4us just adding another perspective i guess.

I too would be interested in how people interpret scriptures. While I remain unaffiliated when it comes to the topic of religion, my father comes from a devoutly catholic family and society. He is originally from the border region between Spain and France so much of his early schooling was performed by French priests. His mother attended church daily, and much of his everyday life was centered on religion. Over the course of his life he has grown to mistrust the church, although I know he still retains his faith. This is the reason why I was not raised in a particularly religious household, but it is also the reason why he is struggling to cope with/ understand/ accept my homosexuality and subsequently is not speaking to me. My relationship with my father has always been feeble and could be described as strained, at best. I know that right now one of the biggest barriers to me reconciling any relationship with my father is partly faith based. I don’t know if I could ever completely understand his position, or the position of others who are grappling with issues surrounding their beliefs, but I do know that I don’t want to regret never having tried.

Puck .......you are dead right when you say there is no one sin worse than the other and actually when you think of it even if we do not actually commit the sin by having sex yet have the thought and desire in our head is it really any less of a sin.......I can only answer you personally and please let me assure you that what I say is only my beliefs and how I feel about things and to a degree how i interpret the teachings of god........I constantly struggle with the life I have chosen but like you said for you , there is only two choices.....either abstain and be miserable or be true to yourself and be prepared to meet your maker and be judged.....

I would like to believe that god would want us to be happy and if we weren't hurting anyone else in doing so then let us be.but we know that it was not his plan for us to be in same sex relationships.........having said that though it is interesting that the many and varied scholars within the religous field never preach about or discuss the ammount of incest that went on in biblical times......it is common knowledge that this was happening and that the women were shared among families when a husband died......

Today Homosexuality is like a clanging bell and clashing symbol to most religions.....it is because it is out there more in numbers and is more open than ever before and mainstream people are beginning to accept it and be more tolerant...to christians it is a huge and righteous soap box for them to stand on and make alot of noise when infact there are far more worse sins happening that are going less unnoticed......

If I could offer you any advice at all it would be to keep your faith and your love of god but find a comfort zone for yourself that you can be totally honest with yourself and be happy at the same time........again I would say.that I hope and pray that God is not going to judge me alone for my choice of partner.......I have to believe that in order to keep my own faith...

Okay now to try and answer you hypo...........first and foremost there is not one person on this earth that has the right to judge you.........those that are condemming you to hell for your lifestyle will be judged by their maker for judging you......it is plainly written..let those without sin cast the first stone......and another goes something like this....let not you judge for fear of being judged..........these are scriptures and any so called christian should know them well.......I am constantly being damned to hell myself by my parents..they will not accept Oz under any circumstances for fear of displeasing god or looking as though they approve..so we have nothing to do with them which is totally unnecessary........I have tried in vain to get it through to them that they are not responsible for my salvation and that whilst I can respect that they do not approve of how i choose to live I do not understand why they feel they have to segregate themselves from me......it is almost as if I have a contagious disease and they are afraid of it rubbing off on them....

You cannot disregard god over what humans tell you or how they treat you......like I have said to puck and she has said also .we have to make our own choices and find a way to live with them..........not one of us know how acceptable we are to god and won't until the day we stand before Him.......one thing I do know the bible says is...it is easier to pass through the eye of a needle than the gates of heaven.......so who really knows and has the right or knowledge to say who is damned or not.........lets face it in this world we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.........

Just be happy and true to yourself.....