Ok, in series 1, ep 9 when Helen goes into the Library and spots Nikki in her cool pirate shirt (ha) and acts as if she is looking for Monica, Nikki once again calls her "Helen".

When Helen says, "This is difficult for me, as I think ya know"...what is your interpretation of what she means by this? "I think you know" implies that Nikki does know but Helen is at this point very unclear as to what is going on in her head/heart even to herself. Is she referring to their talk earlier when Nikki was called into her office and she told her she liked her but wasn't attracted to her and therefore it was difficult in that she wants to be friends but wants Nikki to realize everthing she does is for professional reasons only? yeah right!

Nikki, I think, feels it is difficult being informal because Helen is once again made to feel uncomfortable and doesn't quite get why. She even asks her, "What do you want?" and this question really makes Helen squirm and run out of the room.

So, even though I understand the dynamics of what is going on between the two of them, I don't understand the question asked of Nikki.

I always thought she was referring to the awkward position Nikki has put her in by expressing sexual interest in her. Now Helen is finding it difficult to interact normally with Nikki, because Nikki has violated the boundaries between a wing gov and a prisoner. Helen now has to be more on guard, to protect herself against any further "intrusions" or misunderstandings by Nikki. She can no longer engage with Nikki in a natural or relaxed way.

I didn't think "this" referred to Helen's conflicted feelings for Nikki. Or, I don't think that is what Helen means when she says "this." Of course, with Helen there are always double meanings ("Even if I were attracted to you, which I'm not" is my favorite), where she's not even aware of what's driving her feelings or her words, and I think you could argue that the same thing is happening here. Helen thinks when she says "this" she means her awkwardness in interacting with Nikki within appropriate boundaries. But really when she says "this" she means her feelings/attraction for Nikki are difficult for her. And of course Nikki, being the expert reader of Helen that she is, hears both meanings.

Isn't it the end of the ep before (ep 8) that Helen pauses outside Nikki's cell to tell her that maybe Monica needs some time alone. It's a moment I've always read as having some sort of mutual awareness of the attraction between them. Helen says she needs some time alone. Nik says she's got Sean to go home to. Helen says yes without conviction. Then she pauses and says "Night Nikki" in a way that suggests she feels quite close to Nikki. Then Nikki says, 'Night Helen". As Helen walks down the stairs Body Bag passes and says " Night Marm". As Helen walks away she mutters distractedly and wearily to herself "Helen" - Here it seems like she's referring both to her desire not to be called Marm by the PO's and to Nikki calling her Helen.

The next ep (9) - does it? Then comes the library scene. I thought it was the night scene that Nikki was referring to when she says, "Is it because I called you Helen?" And the "What do you want?" refers to the difference between the way Helen talked to her the night before & the way she's avoiding her gaze in the library.

I'm pretty sure that the "Helen" Nikki refers to in her "is it because I called you Helen" line is at the start of the library scene, when she says something like "You're looking a bit pasty Helen. Late night?" But yeah, I'm in total agreement with you in your interpretation of the "What DO you want" line. Nikki is trying to force Helen to acknowledge her mixed signals and conflicting emotions.

I always thought the "Is it 'cause I called you Helen?" was referring to the night before.

I've never fully acknowleged Helen muttering her own name after Bodybag says "Night Ma'am", yet another thing I have to look into !! (Not that I'm complaining!)

I think it's a bit of both. The last thing Nikki said to Helen in the ep before was "Night Helen." And it's the first time she'd used Helen's first name. It seems to be a result of Nikki picking up on the way Helen was expressing some intimate thoughts/feelings to her. Then the next time they meet Nikki uses her first name again because she has assumed there is a new intimacy betwen them. So her use of Helen links both scenes, plus Helen's muttering of her own name, and the contradiction between Helen's intimacy and subsequent emotional withdrawal from Nikki.

Abzug, that is a brilliant explanation of what "this" means. It explains to me how she could ask that of Nikki and yet still not truly know her feelings towards her. And you are right, Nikki heard more than what was really being asked, she is the ever wise one when it comes to Helen, er most of the time;)

And as far as to which "Helen" she is reffering to I think if I had to pick one it would be the the original time she said it the night before. They haven't had a chance to talk about her saying it and the ramifications of it. When Nikki says it again and sees that Helen is upset when she first comes in the door, I think she is actually thinking of the first time she calls her by her first name and she thinks the second time is just irritating her more. Nikki is probably sensitive to Helen's reaction and is assuming it is negative based on Helen's body language when she first comes into the room. Just sayin:)

And the time she says, "Helen" to Bodybag is hilarious! I loved that! She says it so wearily cuz she is tired physically and mentally and hearing Bodybag calling her "marm" just exasperates her even more.

That end of ep 8 scene between Nikki and Helen is about my favourite one in the first series... or maybe ever. I have always thought it's a brilliant bit of television: well-written, well-acted, well directed, exquisite use of music - it's beautiful and poetic and expresses so much in a very concise way. I've watched that scene loads of times.

It begins with the sounds of other inmates laughing as they're hearded off for lock up, and then we get the darkened empty prison. Helen responds to Nikki's night call to Monica as she walks past Nik's cell. Then we are shown a major change in the relationship when there is the development of a real intimacy between them, separated by the cell door: indicative of the way they are separated by their positions within the prison structure. But both Nikki and Helen are listening intently to each other. Helen shifts from talking about Monica to talking about herself with just enough of a pause to show she's changing gear in her relationship with Nikki. Helen/Simone also pauses just enough between saying "yes" she's got Sean, and saying "Night Nikki" to suggest that Nikki offers her some thing (intimacy maybe) that Sean can't. Thern there's the way she hears Nik saying "Night Helen" and walks off to mutter her own name.

I just LOVE that scene. Written by Sally Wainwright I think?

Great breakdown of that scene, campgrrls. I have nothing more to add, other than to concur that its one of my favorites as well.

This idea that Nikki's refering to the previous scene is interesting, but I can't quite get it to work in my head according to the time elapsed between original airing of 1 show & the weeklong lag to the next. I just think it's unlikely the writers would've have expected the audience to *assume* that the "Helen" N was refering to was from another show. The idea is tempting, but we tend to view this stuff back to back & to see the text as interlocking, all of piece. Which in some, perhaps ways it is, but I can't quite talk myself out of the temporal issue.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Nikki first uses Helen's first name in ep 8 then it becomes a little bit of an issue in ep 9. It's very likely this was discussed between the writers and producers as part of their brief. The director is the same for both eps as well so would have some continuity in mind.

Also the first series was very well thought out by the creators who had an overall conception of the development of the H & N relationship right from the start I would imagine. It was conceived as a one of drama series at that time.

You make a good case, both reasonable points. :)

Great analysis of the scene, campgrrls:)

In general I have alot of trouble figuring out how much time has elapsed between scenes and eps. Like someone said in a piece of comedy commentary, it would be alot easier to figure out time if an inmate stayed pregnant. LOL! You definitely can tell alot of time has elapsed based on just how pregnant Zandra is!!!

I never really understood how much time occurred between the time Helen left the prison after Sean broke it off and burned his tux and then she returned. I mean, just how long did she stay away? And just how long did she stay "missing", ie how long was Larkhall out of touch with her thinking she would not be returning? If she is gone for more than a few weeks without anyone knowing where she is, surely someone would start to get concerned about her.

There is one time Helen returns from her vacation and she mentions she spent 6 weeks working on flat back furniture. Normally I would never have thought 6 weeks had elapsed. It was nice knowing the time frame and knowing that Nikki had spent alot of time thinking of her relationship with Helen and how it was developing in her own mind and heart and how much she missed her. Obviously, both had alot of time to think.

And how much time elapsed between the time Sean gave his gardening lecture and Nikki learns of her engagement and then she goes in search of Nikki to discuss her reaction? Helen has on different clothes so it was at least a day but we don't know for sure. One wonders if Nikki was avoiding Helen after her news for some time and then Helen misses seeing her around or does Helen comes to the potting shed the next day based solely on her reaction in the class room?

Oh, and what about the time elapsed between the first time Helen says Nikki is making her feel uncomfortable and then Nikki mentions it again in the library and then she kisses her the first time? She (Nikki) acts as if they have discussed the issue before and even mentions how they talked about Helen wanting their relationship to be informal and not formal (I would have loved to have heard that conversation, btw). So do we go from a short or long time between where Nikki is told to never do anything like that again ( ie touch Helen or act inappropriately) to where Helen is actively seeking out Nikki in her cell for comfort?

I generally like to think that more time has elapsed than it appears. As ekny said, we tend to watch these things back to back and it screws up the timeline for me so I add time and it makes sense and adds more angst and believability to their growing relationship.

Oh boy, you just brought up my FAVORITE topic. Please click here to have any and all of your timeline questions answered:
http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...p?showtopic=190
(you can scroll down to the bottom to see the final timeline--or you can read all the analysis which led up to it, which may get tedious, just as a warning)

Actually, it was three weeks, not six. Man, imagine getting six week vacations! I'd join the prison service in a second! But yeah, it was always nice when they'd drop a line like this, although then by seasons 4&5 you had to ignore all their references to how long it had been since events which had occurred in seasons 1-3, because they were flat out wrong.

Thanks for the link...I am so glad the timeline is one of your favorite topics. I am looking forward to reading it.

"Six weeks"...LOL, yeah, that would be a heavenly amount of time to be off work. Probably a case of wishful thinking as I am just preparing for my vacation:) I do have a colleague who works 7 days on and 7 days off and just got 3 months approved of PAID vacation. I am so jealous!

I'm so glad I've discovered this thread! I've been meaning to ask if such a thread existed for quite some time now.

There are a number of phrases that I've often wondered about, what they meant exactly. The first one is Helen's retort to Nikki when Nikki was down the block in S2E2: "You just don't get it, do you Nikki?"

I don't know if Nikki got it, but I certainly didn't.

That has definitely been discussed, microsofty, I just can't think where, what thread at the moment. Maybe someone else can recall...?

I think Helen refers to the fact that she constantly brushes Nikki off, lets her know there’s no way they could have a romantic/sexual relationship and yet Nikki always makes a point to mention it. It happened throughout the second half of S1, it happened when they had that little cozy chat in Helen’s office in S2Ep1 and Helen said there’s no way they can be equal while it’s her job to lock Nikki up, in reply to Nikki’s confession at the end of that episode she said that she can do something about it [having feelings]. Helen wants Nikki to stop bringing this up and understand they can’t be with one and another and yet even when she’s down the block, Nikki lowers her voice and tells Helen to stick her tongue down her throat (gulp). So by it in “You just don’t get it, do you, Nikki?” Helen means the fact that they can’t have any relationship, period.

So the next time Nikki is “being like this” is when Helen comes to see her again and asks whether her behavior has changed, Nikki says she wants to make love to her all night long (gulp gulp) and it’s the last straw because Nikki clearly doesn’t get “it”.

Was briefly discussed on the episode thread S2Ep2 (http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...wtopic=863&st=0). Not sure about anywhere else.

Oh, I think Nikki does get it, she is just not willing to accept that answer so she is constantly pushing and challenging Helen. :)

I hereby nominate Cassandra as the new Helen & Nikki board librarian, able to find long-dormant threads at a moment's notice!

Great explanation, Mad Maggot. I do think this is one of those Helen-ambiguous lines which can be discussed ad nauseum (kind of like "maybe too much" which I wrote two paragraphs on earlier today). It could also be the kind of thing where it=Helen, so when Helen tells Nikki she doesn't get it, what she means is "you don't understand me or where I'm coming from or how hard this is for me, because if you did you wouldn't pressure me this way." Because what Nikki is saying in this scene is "Why don't you act on your attraction to me?" and Helen is saying "Whether I'm attracted to you or not is simply not the point. Of course I'm attracted to you, and there is no possible way I can act on it."

I had a look at the S2E2 thread, but it really was only a brief discussion.

I'm still not to clear on all this. Helen's first reaction to try and stop her feelings for Nikki, is to have Nikki shipped out - sort of an "out of sight out of mind" approach. Then she learns about Fenner's scheming and has Nikki shipped back. As far as I understand it, she decided to have Nikki shipped back in before she knew she was going to resign. Or not? Had she made up her mind about her resignation before that? It seemed to me that her resignation was on impulse and not something that she had contemplated for a while. So isn't Helen in this instance acting on her feelings for Nikki by doing what is right by her, having her shipped back in? She is bringing Nikki back to where she can see her every day, if my assumption about Helen's resignation is correct.

Yes, I think that's what she's doing.

Yo, what she said.

OK! Well if you ever lose another needle, abzug, give me a shout. :lol:

I agree with the other two agreers! Also I think you are right, microsofty. Helen was certainly fed up with the system but I don't think she actually planned to resign. Her argument with Stubberfield became heated and I think she decided there and then that she'd had enough.

Now if we're all in agreement on this, then what is Nikki not getting? I agree that it might be "I feel something for you, but I can't act on it", but then later on Helen does act on it. I don't know what she was planning to do about all this pre-resignation, 'cause she brought Nikki back before she knew she was going to resign. Am I getting my point across? It doesn't feel that way. "I can't really act on it, but that doesn't stop me from acting on it", type of thing.

Here's my thought on the matter: when Helen returns in S2E1, she knows she has feelings for Nikki, and she knows Nikki has feelings for her, and she's decided she's going to come back and do her job, despite all these feelings running around, because she feels certain enough that she can keep things under control.

Then, S2E2 happens, and the battles she and Nikki have when Nikki is in solitary convince Helen that there is NO WAY she and Nikki can both exist together at Larkhall. So she ships Nikki out, as an act of self-preservation. THEN, she finds out from Shell that the whole thing was a frame-up, that Nikki's cell should never have been searched, and Nikki should never have wound up down the block. Suddenly, Nikki's behavior takes on a very different hue, because now Helen realizes Nikki was acting out because she had been treated in a hugely unfair way. Yes, Nikki took out her rage on Helen, but the fact that her rage was justified made Helen see Nikki's behavior in a different way. And makes Helen think, as she did at the start of S2E1, that the two of them can co-exist at Larkhall.

And so Helen wants to repair her overreaction. She realizes had she not been trying to put a wall between she and Nikki she wouldn't have approached Nikki so combatively when she first went down to solitary, that Nikki didn't deserve the hostile treatment from her, starting from that first meeting in solitary and extending until Nikki was shipped out. In order to repair this (and Helen wants to because, of course, she's fallen for Nikki, so it's intolerable to feel like she's victimized Nikki in this way), she has to bring Nikki back. I don't think she's gone further than this in her thoughts. She's not thinking to herself "Gee, now I can kiss Nikki in her cell." She's thinking "I shouldn't have shipped Nikki out away from her friends and community. And I'm the one who can help her get the most out of her time in prison, so I need to get her back to Larkhall, to be under my watch, etc etc."

I think I get it now (thanks to your insightful comments). What Helen is basically saying is that yes, she is attracted to Nikki, BUT she is also a woman of principle. By crossing the boundary between her and Nikki, she is not only jeopardising her job, but also her integrity.

Later on in Nikki's cell she does cross the boundary, but she's not jeopardising her job because at that point she had already resigned. And with the kiss she realised that she was also not failing her own integrity and that leads to the growth that we see in Helen throughout the remainder of S2 and parts of S3, before she regressed to the 'safety' of heterosexuality.

So, am I getting it or not?

Microsofty, here’s one more thread where this issue is discussed if you’re interested. Along with some other things Helen meant/thought, there’s also a great discussion about Nikki. http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...owtopic=58&st=0

Wow, that was a great thread! I had totally forgotten about it. How funny to see our anxiety about the board move come through in the middle there.

Part of that was literally only a few people were catching on at the time that there was this whole crash & they needed to register at the new board here & so forth, so we sort of WERE some of the only people around for about a week, or half a week anyway. I mean the numbers came up again very quickly but initially it was like the tumblin tumbleweeds were blowin through here. Plus for er... some of us <discreet cough> it was kinda an Anxious Time. With the cutting & the pasting & the bandaids an all. ;) So I was a bit off-topic there in the middle but it was kinda like: yes, and all 10 of us chatted about it anyway cause it was kinda a small party. Or so my memory tells me.

Anyway, yeah, it was a good thread--lots of people put lots of thought into their replies, & had differences, too, w/o it being a major thing. Of course, the question was also killer.