Let's get this party started! Here I am at work and its half an hour since the episode ended and everyone didn't rush to their computers to post their thoughts?!?! :o Sooooo, what did people think?

Ok, fine.

(+)

Servery brush/canteen bump, call it what you will: There's something to read in the look Lou exchanges with Pat.

Option 1: two alpha females.
Option 2: mutual recognition.

If 1, it needn't go anywhere. Pat's head goes back just a bit, then she turns away, just a trace of a smile. Head cast a bit down. Reading: fine, you're the boss, knock yourself out, I'm moving out of your path. Her challenge to Lou at the end abt screws being kind or whatever echoes Nikki, of course, & argues in favor of some other reading to be taken from the scene.

If 2, possibilities fraught: Lou's not giving anything away, only Pat's reacting, so Pat's already at a slight emotional disadvantage if she's interested (assuming Lou's conscious of any meaning taken from the exchange in this way). If Lou's not playing it cool & is just unconscious, and it *is* parallel to the H/N brush, then that would, obviously, be interesting. In that instance, Pat turning her head away & then smiling--to herself--means something rather different.


*** *** ***

(-)

I can't being to say how little I found credible abt the scene at the end. You can't choke someone & make them swallow pills at the same time, for ch*#(sake. Not to mention Buxton can defend herself. Not to mention she gave in like a sheep. Not to *mention* what the hell's Pat's motivation? to murder her over this rather small piece of cruelty, when Buxton's been such a shit for so long over bigger things? Or to just frame her & get her out of the picture for awhile? Incredibly stupid & not-strategic (and out of character): so... what, Buxton can just come back meaner than ever? What am I missing? Bec this scene was a disaster, far as I was concerned. Or at the very least, stupid & did not work. I sure hope the events of the next 5 eps don't depend on it.

Pat and Vigilante Justice
And here we were saying Pat was somewhat Nikki-like. Uh...nope. E, I've got to strenuously disagree with your take on this scene. I absolutely LOVED her assault on Natalie. First, because she was standing up for poor Janine who really got screwed by this whole thing (the one thing Pat can't abide is the destruction of families). Second, because it was really strategic and improvisatory, but also aggressively violent (the razor blades on the toothbrush--a popular prison weapon, or so I've read; the drugs/poisoning), and therefore very revealing of Pat's character. She's intelligent and strategic, but also ruthless in defense of those who need it. Nikki was never this violent or ruthless. She'd use words, she'd occasionally wrestle someone to the ground if they really deserved it, but attack someone with a razor blade and poison them? No way. Third, because the symbolism of the attack was so powerful. If Natalie is the amoral capitalist, Pat is punishing her with overconsumption of the goods she sells. Kind of like forcing the tobacco companies to inhale packs and packs of cigarettes. Or forcing drug companies to take drugs like Vioxx and others which they kept on the market even after knowing they could harm people. So the attack was making this very vivid statement about capitalism and how it drives consumers to want to consume more and more and more, to the point of death or at least destruction. Such a fitting punishment of Natalie--talk about a taste of your own medicine--with her attack Pat's essentially saying "I'm doing to YOU what you do to every drug addict on this wing!"

Lou Stoke Intriguingly Sympathetic
Lou is turning out to be an awfully interesting character, isn't she? With the whole Janine storyline they really seem to be emphasizing her concern for and identification with the prisoners. Two interesting bits of symbolism I noticed related to Janine. First, the exchange outside the prison with Janine's father, where he throws the funeral information to the ground and Lou bends down to pick it up suggests that she's willing to demean (too strong a word?) herself for the sake of the prisoners. Then, at the funeral she pushes Janine to speak--I can't think of another wing gov, including the lovely Helen Stewart, who gave the prisoners a voice, encouraging them to speak out publicly. This was an incredibly meaningful moment, imo.

Other thoughts of Lou vs Helen: the whole "don't call me mum" bit amused me--clearly neither stands on status or ceremony. And I have to say, like ekny, I do see signs of something brewing between Lou and Pat. That eye contact moment in the servery (of course! it always happens in the servery, now doesn't it?) seemed significant. I don't necessarily agree that it was just one-sided though. I think both were aware of and reacting to the other.

Which of course leads me to Lou's Sexuality!
They are really trying to keep us guessing! Flirting with Dr. Dunlop, but only after leading him to believe her to be a lesbian and involved with Joy. That eye contact with Pat. And then the flirtation with Joy. Which mystified me at first, but then I realized that what she's really trying to do is rile Joy up a bit. The issue is not whether Lou (or Joy) is a lesbian. The issue is generational. Lou is comfortable with alternative sexualities (for others, and it seems, for herself), while Joy is NOT. Lou's reference to Joy going "home to the Mrs." was particularly intriguing. To Lou it was a completely natural thing to say, while for Joy it made her extremely uncomfortable. Not because she was being mistaken as a lesbian, but because she was being read correctly as a lesbian, and clearly she's of a generation for whom this is not ok. Which ties back in very nicely with the Xmas special, and the sequence where Joy and Christie were dressing up, which alluded to scenes from "lesbian" films where lesbian characters and imagery had to be encoded, not spoken of openly. Joy doesn't like these things spoken of openly, and Lou, it seems, will say or do pretty much anything.

I'm not sure what to make of the whole massage parlor thing. When Lou speaks to the woman in the bar, I initially thought it was someone she was sleeping with, like someone with whom she has a casual sexual relationship. But then their arrival at what appears to be a brothel had me confused. They didn't touch intimately when they entered--instead they just seemed like friends, co-workers etc. And I can only come up with three reasons Lou might go into a brothel:
1. As a customer
2. As a sex-worker
3. As a "manager"
To me, option #1 is the most appealing (there's something deliciously kinky about the idea of Lou paying for sex with women), option #2 would certainly be interesting (prison governor has a secret night life as a prostitute!), and option #3 is very disturbing and seems out of character. Whether she's just collecting payouts in a Fenner type way, or whether she actually runs the place in a Natalie type way, it just doesn't seem to correspond with the caring side we've seen of her.

Us and Us
This episode was also chock full of lines which equated the prisoners and the guards. When Joy and Lou are out to dinner, Lou makes that comment about it being good to get out of prison. And then Joy reminds her that prison employees are subject to the same drink and drugs testing as the inmates. Then later on, Sylvia also makes a comment about how much she wishes she could get out. I'm very interested to see how this plays out over the rest of the season. I'm wondering if they are setting up this identification between the prisoners and the guards in order to blow it apart due to some huge conflict. That would be in line with how they've explored the issue in the past, particularly when it came to Helen and Nikki, who had this hugely significant identification and intimacy, but in the end couldn't get past the fact that prisoners and guards are inherently on opposite sides.

Phyl's Fate
I don't even know why I try to make predictions about Phyl anymore. I am always so flat out wrong its embarrassing. So, obviously, I'm glad she didn't die. Because she is such a great character, and Stephanie Beacham, well, I can always watch her doing pretty much anything. But there is still something nagging at me. I feel doom hanging over her, and I think its because she has made some references to the fact that she is going to die in Larkhall. And the only other character who was spoken of that way was Yvonne (primarily during her battle with Maxi in season 4). So I'm nervous for poor Phyl, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Hiya,

Your points about Pat, & Pat compared to Nikki, are all well-taken, I've no argument with any of them. ...But even with the toothbrush thing (I saw it but my screen's small so I didn't process it very well first time out--I was focused on her other hand & the fact that you can't hold pills [no toothbrush then, I think?], strangle someone, & force them to swallow at the same time), I still don't feel that Buxton put up a convincing fight, or even tried very hard to argue her way out of it. She could've at least tried a bluff, something we've seen her do time & again; said, fine, cut me up, then you'll be on lockdown for months--I don't know, something. If I can't get around whether something's convincingly shot & edited or not, it's hard for me to get under that to the kind of broader ideas you're working with, although, again, I'll certainly keep them in mind for the rest of the season & see if it has bearing on them, or they on it. ;) And I'm still not clear what Pat intends to achieve here, bec if this doesn't outright kill Buxton, obviously then B will spend the rest of the series gunning for Pat. Which is a little predictable, feels we've already been there.

>> [re Lou] With the whole Janine storyline they really seem to be emphasizing her concern for and identification with the prisoners. Two interesting bits of symbolism I noticed related to Janine. First, the exchange outside the prison with Janine's father, where he throws the funeral information to the ground and Lou bends down to pick it up suggests that she's willing to demean (too strong a word?) herself for the sake of the prisoners. Then, at the funeral she pushes Janine to speak--I can't think of another wing gov, including the lovely Helen Stewart, who gave the prisoners a voice, encouraging them to speak out publicly. This was an incredibly meaningful moment, imo.

I agree Lou's obviously the most interesting char they've introduced since Frances (although I did feel very let-down by F's lack of back-story--a broken heart? please), although I didn't see Lou's willingness to get the paper as demeaned or demeaning--she's not the one who tossed it at her own feet so whatever she has to do to retrieve it isn't necess a gesture against herself, if you see what I mean. Gotta defend Helen a bit here, though, I think she wasn't in the same situations other Wing Govs found themselves in: she does indeed listen to their requests during the riot & address their issues as best she can given the situation. She *listens* very closely to the voices of the individual prisoners; I'm not sure I can think of a situation where she deprives them of a voice, either, to put it another way. She hears & supports Zandra during a ridiculously stressful situation, & though we don't see H trying to help Z keep Robbie from getting the baby, there's no reason to doubt she did try. As for Janine, you might be pushing the point just a little: Lou's urging her to speak up for herself at her mother's funeral, not w/in the prison setting proper, & not 'about' prison-related issues except indirectly, perhaps, by implication.

>>That eye contact moment in the servery (of course! it always happens in the servery, now doesn't it?) seemed significant. I don't necessarily agree that it was just one-sided though. I think both were aware of and reacting to the other.

Oh definitely; my point was only that Lou revealed far less than Pat. As well, they're the only people left facing each other in the empty prison after everyone else has deserted ship, which also pairs them as individual & equal in certain ways (as you also allude to, structurally, in your Us and Us section, equating prisoners & guards).

>>I'm not sure what to make of the whole massage parlor thing. When Lou speaks to the woman in the bar, I initially thought it was someone she was sleeping with, like someone with whom she has a casual sexual relationship.

Without anything at all to back it up, I have to say I didn't read it that way, both bec (my own irrational, not-defendable impression only!) the woman wasn't any kind of 'type' I could see Lou being interested in--I have a vague feeling she'd like someone angular/good bones & smart enough to entertain her (the doctor & Pat would both fit this category); & bec the woman was clearly some sort of working girl & the fact that it was prearranged meant Lou didn't give a toss if Joy saw or not, so there wasn't anything inherently secretive in it, to her doings with the woman... necessarily. All just vague impressions really.

>>I don't even know why I try to make predictions about Phyl anymore. I am always so flat out wrong its embarrassing. So, obviously, I'm glad she didn't die. Because she is such a great character, and Stephanie Beacham, well, I can always watch her doing pretty much anything.

Your point about her sense of impending Doom is valid, I think, all I can say is I sure hope not for a long while. Woman's got a great voice. ;) --e

abzug, I must say that I do like the way you have laid out your post under separate headings! I find these post-S1-3 are often difficult to make sense of because there are often so many random thoughts and ideas, so your format makes it a lot easier, and almost approaching a sense of threads within a thread!

Re: Pat, Nat and their spat!
I agree with both of you on this one! Although the whole scenario did seem a little unrealistic, yes ekny, I can't imagine that Buxton wouldn't have put up a bit more of a fight - she hasn't exactly been the helpless type in the past; and also the whole force-feeding of the pills thing! The real Natalie would probably have spat them back at her and fought her way out of her grasp and had a go at turning the tables on her! Although there are maybe elements of Nikki and Shell, where when the bully is actually stood up to, she is rendered powerless. But I have to agree with you abzug, that however unlikely a scenario it may seem, there is something enormously satisfying about seeing Buxton get some of her "own medicine"! Too bad it will probably only be short lived, and as ekny says, she'll probably be gunning for Pat from now on.

Incidentally, having forgotten about last week's trailer, when I first saw Pat collecting the drugs, I thought she was perhaps going to set Nat up with drugs in her cell and a tip-off to the officers. Surely that would have been a better way of going about things - it would have ensured some official punishment for Nat, and also pointed the drug-dealing finger at her, so that Lou could have made the link between Janine/smuggling and Nat/dealing, and have got Janine off the hook?

Re: Lou, Janine and the funeral.
I had to wonder what changes had been made to prison rules between S1 and S8, that poor old Monica, that highly unlikely flight risk, had to be cuffed to go to Spencer's funeral, and it was only Helen breaking the rules that allowed her to be uncuffed. Whereas Janine, who would probably be a far greater flight risk, appears to not only be not cuffed, but is also allowed to walk away unattended, to address the congregation! (I can't remember whether Yvonne was cuffed for Richie's funeral - obviously she wasn't for the little side-trip to the pub, but I should imagine that even she would have been officially cuffed!)

I agree with ekny in her defence of Helen, regarding her not giving the prisoners a voice. It is a different scenario - I do think that if Monica had wanted to speak at Spencer's funeral, that Helen would have allowed and supported her doing so - even if it meant her saying something about her being unjustly behind bars and separated from him etc. As to not giving the prisoners a voice within the prison, I think perhaps she does that in the very first episode - she allows Nikki to have her whole speech from on high, regarding the treatment of Carol and their non-participation in the fashion show. Even though she is as mad as hell, she lets her have her say, she doesn't cut her off and have the officers take her down the block, before she has a chance to speak her mind.

Re: Lou's sexuality!
They are very definitely keeping us guessing in this regard! The whole thing with Joy was very weird, although as you say abzug, there certainly seems to be an element of her trying to wind Joy up with it ( the whole moving in closer to her in the restauran/pub, she's very touchy feely), as Joy is clearly uncomfortable with it, as she is with her drinking. And that's one thing for certain - she does have a booze problem! The incident with the other woman in the pub was most curious and when I saw her going into the massage parlour, my thought was What the Hell? Is she paying for it?!

I definitely can't imagine a scenario of her being a sex worker though abzug, but I think your third suggestion of her running/owning the place may have some possibilities! The opening scene in last weeks ep of her watching the stripper, maybe had some elements of an 'audition' about it - maybe she was checking her out professionally, rather than personally. Maybe she's even using ex-cons to staff the parlours! ;) I think there is perhaps more to Ms Stokes than meets the eye - she's clearly been out of the running in the prison service, and hasn't made it into Area Management for some reason!

As to her sexuality, well I don't know if mentioning the trailers is regarded as spoiler information, but if it is, then you've got about 6 or 7 lines warning that you need to make your eyes blurry ekny!
In this ep we see the doc making the assumption that there is something going on between Lou and Joy. Why? We haven't been given anything to suggest that she is specifically a lesbian yet, or even confirmation that Joy is - how is it that within such a short time, he not only makes the assumption of them both being lesbians, but that they are together?! Lou certainly is being ambiguous about her feelings for women - she says that Joy fancies her, but doesn't say anything about whether or not she is totally misguided in feeling that way. But the trailer (blurry eyes now ekny!) shows her and the doc having it off in a fairly enthusiastic manner!
So I'm left wondering, is she bi? That would be one avenue that they haven't yet explored - somebody who is properly bisexual, and not someone who is conveniently bi like Shell, or confusedly swinging both ways for a time, like Helen.

Re: Phyl's Fate.
Tut tut tut abzug! You have indeed written this poor woman off rather often! ;) Anyone would think you didn't like her! But I think she'll be around for a while - her and Bev have more or less taken over the comic role and the light relief from the Julies, who have moved away from it with Julie's cancer and the other one's depression. So I think you can breathe again for a while at any rate!

Re: The Larkhall syndrome of characters disappearing without a trace or a mention!
They're back at this again! We've had no mention whatsoever of what has become of Sheena and the status of her and Pat's relationship. If they weren't going anywhere with it, why on earth did the introduce the whole idea of them getting married in the last series? Now she's gone and forgotten and if the 2 of you are right, Pat's eyeing Lou! There's also been no mention of Di, has there? Has she resigned, has she transferred, is she on leave? Maybe the malevolent prison has swallowed them both up!

Re Nat, Pat and their spat...heh heh...love it JAMBF!!

My own particular take is that if it had been *anyone* other than Pat, Natalie would probably have spat the pills back at her/turned the tables whatever. I think that Natalie *knew* that it was no idle threat on Pat's behalf...one of Natalie's biggest weapons is her sex appeal - how's she going to manipulate men with a face that looks like a patchwork quilt???

I only have to look back at the way she held Sister Thomas at knifepoint to see that Pat really is a person who believes that she has nothing to lose...she isn't the type of person to make a threat without the intention of seeing through with it.

I keep thinking about a Nikki v Natalie scenario and honestly have to say that I think Natalie would have wiped the floor with her. Even Shell knew how to press Nikki's buttons and how to turn her bluster and temper around to her own advantage...Natalie would have a field day!

Loved the 2nd ep!

I loved the thing with Pat n Natalie at the end, I think Pat just wants to make Natalie feel really small and get her to take the rap for the Janine thing.

As to Lou, I'm really liking her character. Still unsure of her sexuality, but did you see what happens next ep? Don't wanna say anything - don't wanna give any spoilers!

I have to stay I was very sceptical after the first episode a lot of the more recent stuff (s4-7) sems to have been more about high drama and making it 'exciting' as opposed the the earlier series which yes had drama but seemed to me to be more about the women and their interactions and relationships. I liked the whole lou/janine thing a member of staff again relatively high up who is out for the helping the prisoners not punishing them, and the disappointment she showed at the drugs being found proves to the audience that she really does care. Personally I think she was more disappointed in Janine herself than concerned at finding the drugs which is great.

Definitely being reeled in again by this episode and the things that we still aren't being told (lou and the massage parlour whats that about!) and intrigued by the previews of next week can't wait. Will wait and see if it improves on some of the other recent stuff

Can you tell I work in corporate America for a boss with ADD? That's where the section headers come from--so he doesn't actually have to read anything I write, just the topic headers. :)

My theory on this is that Pat is NOT a believer in any sort of official justice systems. She metes out her own justice, first with the nun and putting her on trial for the wing, and now making sure Natalie doesn't get too much power or control by punishing her whenever she abuses someone. I think this whole Janine incident is the first time we've seen Natalie abusing an inmate where Pat is aware of it, so that makes me presume that Pat will punish Natalie pretty much whenever she sees her committing some sort of offense.

Oh, I absolutely completely and totally agree. I didn't mean to be critizing Helen with my comment in my earlier post. Its more that I was interested to note that the writers had never chosen to put Helen in a position where she would explicitly give a prisoner a voice, encourage them to speak their mind publicly. But the writers DID choose to have Lou do so, and given that, what are the writers trying to emphasize about Lou?

Brilliant! The second I read this I felt like a lightbulb went off above my head. Of COURSE this is what Lou was doing in that first scene in the strip joint! I am very intrigued to see how this plays out, because clearly they are purposefully playing with our expectations about Lou's sexuality, and because if Lou indeed were running a brothel, this would be even more morally troublesome than the doctor's little reality tv show venture.

Its not just Di and Sheena who haven't got a mention--what about Spiers and Arun?! But I've gotten to the point where this doesn't even bother me anymore. Its like when you're in love with someone and so you accept their little eccentricities which might annoy you otherwise. This is one of BG's eccentricities, and since I love the show, I just forgive it. But it does make me feel lucky, in retrospect, for how many mentions Helen and Nikki got after they left!

Great point here--this explains quite well why Natalie didn't try to talk Pat out of it. She knew Pat would cut her and not care one bit what happened to her afterwards.

Yeah, no doubt about it. Lucky for Nikki she never had to deal with a sociopath like Natalie. :)

This is a really good point. This is also a way where Lou is very similar to Helen, because she treats the prisoners like human beings, and gives them some trust. And then reacts with disappointment when that trust is betrayed--which indicates she doesn't think the prisoners are inherently evil, just human beings like the rest of us.

re Pat forcing Nat to take the pills
The scene does strain credibility, but it's not totally implausible.
Pat might know special fight techiques (you know, the ones where if you press on certain points around the neck area, you can hold somebody imobilized with using little force).
Also, the anger factor gives you a hell of a lot of power. Sure Natalie had this power also when they had the fight, but now she wasn't all geared up for fight. Don't forget as well that in the prison world (like in the animal world), once you are not top dog anymore you will always have a weak spot where the current top dog (the one that defeated you) is concerned. Remeber Maxi Purvis?
I didn't see the razor blade either at first look, but now that I know it is there, it makes perfect sense that Natalie faced with a very determined Pat armed with a razor blade would swallow the damn pills like they were candy.
My take on Pat's motivation is to do justice the hard way, by putting the evidence where it belongs, with Pat. Natalie even says as much: they're all going to be tested the next day after having their cells (sorry, now apparently called rooms cf Dany first episode) searched for drugs. And she is going to be the only one testing positive. How else could have Pat proven that it was Natalie's scheming ways for Janine being caught with drugs?

re Lou's sexuality
Neither in the strip club, nor going into the massage parlour, does Lou strike me as a woman being there for pleasure. Compare it with her being flirtatious and lascivious with the doctor and even mimicking those with Joy.
I can well see her protecting the girls from the massage from the sharks like Natalie and from the likes of Fenner. Massage parlours and strip clubs are not illegal business. And if the women there are doing it of their own volition, then it might not be palatable from a feminist point of view and it might not go down well on her resume, but she's in the clear with it. Though I find it hard to believe that she would just pick up a second job when her primary job is in the prison service (good pension and all that). We don't yet know what has she been before she joined HMPService. She might have been a cop or an accountant.
She's obviously somebody who couldn't care less about what other people think of her and her business, she's very cavalier where mores and inhibitions are concerned. And she just loves to intrigue people. It's her best trick and it works. She'll be whatever the other person wants her to be.
At this point in time I believe that she'll prove to be straight (if we have to put her in a box), but extremely open minded. Shed are making all these gay innuendos too obvious for her to be really gay. There wouldn't be much tension and drama if she was really gay.
She's so sure and comfortable with her sexuality that she doesn't have any problems experimenting, flexing it and letting others now about it.
Both her and Helen are very private about their private life, but they are like that in a different way. Helen was guarded about it, Lou bluffs her way through life. But then again, let's not forget that Helen had to deal with Fenner, Lou so far hasn't had it rough at Larkhall. The worst she has to deal with is Joy (which might be rigid and military, but she's not evil - and she's a woman).
by the way abzug, she said "are you going home to the missus" (had subtitles on). Which is used on purpose in the vein of 'listen darling', it's slightly derogatory and meant to provoke (which it does).
Lou seemed like a clever enough person to go about her business without letting the others know about it if that's what she wanted. So meeting that woman at the bar and talking to her even before Joy left, I interpret it as Lou almost wanting Joy to know. Maybe just to wind her up even more. Like any uninhibited person she likes to be playful and wind the inhibited ones up. Joy seems to understand this so she doesn't get upset, she's just befuddled by it.

re scene in the servery & Lou taking Janine to her mother's
funeral
To me that was such a return to Helen and Monica (including Pat's "blinding" remark so much like the ones Nikki used to throw at Helen at the beginning). Lou herself is a return to Helen. It's almost like she's another Helen a few years down the line. Remember, when Helen was happy and not worrying about Nikki or having to deal with Fenner, she was equally playful and mischievous. Frances, Karen, Neil, Joy weren't.
Lou is like Pat, she's got that street learned sense of right and wrong and if she can help she will and make no fuss about it.
Having said that, I'm still waiting for Lou to show that she has feelings too, that she's got her vulnerable points as well. Yeah, she's fair, she's smart, she's funny, but if she'll be sailing this smoothly all series, then I'm afraid the viewers won't be rooting for her. You know, you need to have a little bit of angst, something to root for. Even Batman or Superman have their angst.
I don't know if it's in the script or in the acting, but she doesn't strike me as a consistent and well built character. I hope I am mistalken and I'll be proven wrong. Maybe it is just that she's a new character and I'm impatient because I'm used to ones that I know inside out

re: Sheena vanishing
I can understand that at the time of writing S7, Shed had no way of knowing that BG will be commisioned for another series. They have always said that they are always writing in the view that the last episode of the series is the last they'll ever make. That way, at least they tie the loosed ends of that series.
But when they started writing (or even when they started filming S8) why couldn't they just quickly tie the loose end called Sheena & Pat exchanging their vows and Pat adopting Sheena's kid and then dissapearing completely. I mean, we didn't even see Pat give her a call or something (you know, one that Sheena doens't pick up).

Finally, abzug how could you! bad bad abzug. :) I wouldn't mind Lou being on a par or better than Helen in terms of fighting for the women and being sympathetic, but I am certain that that will never happen. I wouldn't mind it only because it would make for good drama. But you see, even for Shed, Helen was the first love, the perfect woman. There wouldn't be another one like her.
I'm with ekny, Lou is encouraging her to speak on a personal level. Helen was a crusader, Lou, imo, will never be. Lou is like Karen, she'll help, she'll not shy away from doing what it takes, but she's not going to be a reformer, a hero.

Aaahh, poor abzug, munky! She's not that bad! She did clarify her position on Helen and blame Helen's actions on the writers! :D

Wow. This board has been busy in the last day and I've finally caught up with everything. There isn't much I can add to the Lou Joy scene except the curious comment by Lou that 'opposites attract' and telling the SMO that Joy was in love with her. I got the feeling that Lou was being very playful and mischievous with the doctor in messing with his perceptions of the situation. Certainly Lou is a character that needs a lot of watching which is in the best tradition of Shed, to not serve up the character on a plate, that you have to work at it.

What is peculiar are the numbers of prison officers who have some alternative, if not dogy sideline. Donny Kimber (not a very major character) is really working undercover for the police, Lou has some association with a massage parlour and the SMO has a sideline with an undercover TV series. This is a major shift in BG which only started with Frances' being an undercover cop and with too close a connection with the black pimp.

I certainly accept that Natalie buckled under too easily to Pat's meting out of Yvonne type justice but I suppose she might be psyched out by the fact that Pat is the only woman so far who has outsmarted and outfought her and being a karate black belt, she's not used to it.

I certainly agree that Janine Nebeski's funeral was a return not only to Monica's Spencer's funeral but also a throwback to Maxi Purvis' funeral with the rejecting father syndrome.

One thing that is a pity is that Shed don't make more of integrating the actual prison procedure into the drama as Series 1 did so successfully - example Crystal's and Yvonne's induction, Nikki's open university application.

One other storyline worth watching is the Elmira storyline and the police investigation into terrorism and Pat's very apt remark that it's not new for a prisoner to be fitted up. Another was the anything but throwaway line by the policeman that there are pressures on him to get results. This particular matter and the use of 'TV news clips' makes for Shed's political side coming out.

Thanks JAMBF--this made me laugh! :) I truly don't mean to knock Helen at all, just to understand where they are going with Lou by drawing a comparison between the two.

I'll agree with you on that--Helen was out to change the prison system, while Lou's goal (if she's even conscious of it) is to empower the women in her care as much as she can. Which Helen certainly did as well, but they emphasized it less than her fight against systemic corruption. This idea of Lou promoting empowerment is very interesting if she is indeed running a brothel--could it be one of the feminist sort, ie non-exploitative of the women who work there?

Now this is interesting. On the one hand, you applauded the idea of Lou potentially buying sex from another woman as kinky, but on the other, the idea of her running a brothel is morally troublesome. It seems to me those are or would be 2 sides of the same coin.

If your attitude is that women should be able to do whatever they want, sexually and/or economically--period--including paying for it--then it's inconsistent to say everyone can buy, but women shouldn't sell, or, more to the point, shouldn't run other women who sell. It's a business: someone's got to run it. There's no reason it shouldn't be a woman, despite tv & film portrayals of evil madams, obviously real-life pimps are hardly better. My own opinion is that if it's treated as a business--as in Nevada--there's at least a fighting chance for the 'girls' to work in an evironment which isn't a total sewer. We all know it's different in different countries & depends enormously on the individuals involved, I'm not trying to get into a whole discussion of the pros/cons of prostitution worldwide (& over history)--just that I don't see a difference: either you're working in that world or not. If you are, then your behavior should be judged in the same way as anyone else's also in that world, by the same standards or yardstick or what have you.

So if Lou's making money (lots of money, in all likelihood) by running a massage business on the side--with or w/o prostitution, legal or not--so long as everyone's participating consensually & being treated fairly, I don't have a problem with it. Morally. ;) --e

You know what I like about you, e? You always make me step back and think about things in a new way. And on this point you're absolutely right. I think I was associating the massage parlor with characters like Virginia O'Kane and Natalie, and so I was troubled by the implication that Lou was in any way like either of those two, especially given that they've established her as a goodie thus far. But as you point out, prostitution doesn't inherently have to be exploitative and abusive and corrupt as it was under O'Kane and Natalie (and often is in real life). And it would certainly be playing with our expectations in the way BG always likes to do--if BG can make us feel sympathetic and understanding towards murderers, prostitutes, drug addicts, arsonists, etc, then why shouldn't it be able to do the same towards madams, right?

Excellent point here. The only new character we don't know about by this point is Mandy, who sort of seems too dimwitted to have anything going on, but time will tell. Its particularly interesting given that in the past they've taken pains to show us how limited the POs lives are--few of them have lives or opportunities outside work. (With significant exceptions of course--Helen being the most obvious!)

I had been thinking about this too when I was recently rewatching the first few episodes. I guess they figure they've covered all of it already, but it was always a nice way of keeping things in context, of reminding us they are in prison, and how many rules and procedures go along with that. Now new prisoners come in and go right up onto enhanced (ie Emira)--why is that?

Yes, I'm working my way backwards up the thread. This is a great assessment of Lou, munky. I like the idea of her as a chameleon. And this idea of not caring what others think of her is such a delicious contrast with Helen, who was so plagued by it.

Huh. Interesting. I thought it was slightly teasing, in the vein of "Heading home to the old ball and chain?" that we might say in the US. We actually might use "missus" in the way that Lou did, although more likely we'd say "Heading home to the wife?" But I didn't realize there was any sort of put-down in it. Just a sort of joke-y use of heterosexual terminology as a way of referencing Joy's lesbianism in a non-judgmental way. So its good to know about the subtle connotations. Regardless Lou quickly jumps back from whatever the connotations are of the comment, essentially neutralizing it when she says "I'm sorry, I thought you had a partner." It occurs to me that Joy's discomfort could be the result of her continuing to mourn Christie, not because she is concerned about Lou knowing she is a lesbian.

Feeling's quite mutual, as I'd hope you know. ;)

After all, we love the 2 Julies, whose specialty was, as they so delicately put it, knob & rob.

Yeah, I agree they're missing some easy opportunities for backstory & better continuity here. Also, I know TVs in prison are nothing new but at waist height? Come on, they're potential weapons, vacuum tubes can explode/be made to explode. Wassup with that?

I also did not read the comment about going home tt missus as inherently a slur or anything other than Lou (again) tweaking Joy about Joy's sexuality. Not in a Fenner-like manner, bec as you point out she backs off right away when Joy's clearly *too* uncomfortable with it, I don't think Lou's a jerk; if there's some genuine distress there, she can realize immediately when she's overstepped (past the point she intended to overstep, that is).

Following on from the thoughtful posts about the massge parlour / brothel and whatever role Lou has in it, the intriguing thought is to compare Lou with Helen and Karen both of whom conveyed the impression that running the one occupation of wing governor was sheer bloody hard work- examples of certainly Helen working late at night at home- and the way Lou can 'burn the candle at both ends' in pursuing both occupations. While it might be stretching reality a bit, it does convey the strong impression of a 'double work identity' ,both being at odds with the other. You get the impression that this 'other occupation' (whatever it is) gives Lou the very interesting insight that if she were a prisoner, she would get up to a few tricks, the precise opposite slant of Joy and Bodybag.
The points about Lou being a chameleon and liking to intrigue definitely hits the mark spot on and this theme of prostitutes / madams could be one that Shed will explore in their individual fashion. .

I don't reckon that Lou is making lots of money if she is running the massage parlour ekny, that's certainly not the latest model car that she's driving - unless she's into retro like Karen! (Or unless she's drinking the profits!) Which suggests that she's not exploiting the women and getting rich at their expense, as Virginia clearly was doing.

I didn't mean to imply that the use of missus was nasty, the act of a jerk, just, as abzug said, a slight tease. Lou is assuming the liberties of a friend here and friends can (as campgrrls was pointing out elsewhere on this board) even call you a tart in a friendly manner.

I agree with the fact that Joy is bothered about the fact that she doesn't have a partner not by Lou knowing she's a lesbian. I think they 'read' each other in the first meeting, the one in front of the prison. The fact that they read each other makes for Joy allowing Lou a few liberties here and there (more than I would think she was allowing Grayling). Maybe that's also because Lou is a woman and because Lou knows how to handle Joy, but in any case Joy's main problem (if there is one) with Lou is only her extroverted and outlandish nature.

yeah, I do have a feeling that with Lou Shed want again to challenge assumptions (like they did with Emira). I'd be happy if they'd follow this path of showing that the world is not black and white, but utterly grey. And again, I can't ignore the political hints, the Blair administration pretending that the world is black&white and behaving as if they were holier than holy.

Its particularly interesting given that in the past they've taken pains to show us how limited the POs lives are--few of them have lives or opportunities outside work. (With significant exceptions of course--Helen being the most obvious!)

This part of abzug's post is very interesting given the way that Shed has been at pains to show how like another worls the prison service- example being of Helen saying just that to Thomas when they were arguing (I think) in the restaurant. The discussion about closing the PO's social club exemplifies this. You find also the outstanding feature of Lou that she is well aware of the outside world, the massage parlour being an example, while Joy gave out the feeling that the prison service was her life, as well as an incredible defensiveness to Lou's teasing.

yeah, Lou is the first character for whom working in the prison service is not the main event in their life. The prison is not a black hole that sucks everybody and everything in. Simply by following Lou the camera puts the the prison into perspective. It is just a buiding on a street. Fenner was the archdevil that he was aslo because the prison (even more so a Victorian one) made him look like that (with the Christmas episode blowing it out of proportions).

Both her and the new SMO seems to regard being in the prison service just like another job, not a lifetime career. This beings a bit of fresh air to the show. It's like once Fenner dies we've jumped from victorian times to modern times.

By not taking herself and her job too seriously Lou also defuses some of the horror and drab of prison life. It woul be interesting to see her in a crisis (well, actually we did a bit) because you get the feeling that she'll still be her maverick and cool self and that is what prison needs in crisis. Joy seems to panick more than Lou.

Great point munky. There definitely does seem to be a shift to modernity in this series, with the tvs in the cells, etc. I had actually thought they'd make a big deal about upgrading the air conditioning after the Legionaires outbreak as a metaphor for this transformation, but I guess they decided to be a bit more subtle with it (and of course I never mind subtlety!).

This Joy panicking thing was a big surprise to me, because I thought when they introduced her character at the end of season 7, they showed her with hyper-competence and authority. Grayling and others kept saying that she had no idea how to run a prison like Larkhall, but I didn't actualy see that until this season. In the end, pretty much every wing gov or governing gov comes in with a lot of confidence and then has the rug pulled out from under them. The only one who it seems might not go through this is Lou (one could argue Karen didn't either, although her whole group therapy campaign got pretty undermined).

I have to say I'm not entirely comfortable with them turning Masterton into a figure to be goaded & made fun of at every turn. I don't mean I particularly cared for her rigid authoritarian intro, but since then the scriptwriters haven't had much to do with her, in a way: just a few episodes after being introduced to us, she's already mainly a bit of a joke.

Since she's also a significantly older lesbian, I'm pretty ambivalent about that. Yeah, it's funny--sort of--that she can't quite take her eyes off Lou's tits long enough to criticize her for displaying them: it's also kind of pathetic. Which I think it's intended to be. Which kind of pisses me off. She represents a real set of options--the military does what it does pretty successfully, in terms of organizing & training large groups of people--and I wish if they were going to explore this whole avenue they'd find a way to do it without simply resorting to ridicule.

I agree with you here completely, e. I'm hoping that they bring in a little more nuance in the next few episodes, because it would be quite uninteresting if Lou were the heroine who is always right. Even Helen had her mishaps where she had to learn from Fenner (gasp!).

And in fact, its an interruption! Something that intrudes on her real/other life in the strip club. Speaking of which, I was thinking more about that idea I mentioned in the ep 1 thread, about the introduction of Lou being a mislead, because we assume its nighttime and then it turns out to be daytime. Well, JAMBF's idea of Lou auditioning the stripper, rather than enjoying her, may be the solution to the mislead. I mean, we've already discussed this, of course, but I wanted to tie it into the idea that the show is trying to mislead us with this character, again and again.

What I saw with regards to Joy's military formation is that it doesn't seem to help her in crisis situations. She seems to be wrong footed by crisis so much so that she takes 'disastrous' decisions: allowing the exorcism, not believing Grayling would not just walk out of the job. She's not sure in herself that what she thinks is the right decision anymore (lets the SMO convince her that Phyl needs private care).

I'm not sure I read her characther's development as mockery. I think I see it more Shed's way of responding to those who think that what the prison service (and by extension the entire Home Office) needs is a strong hand, someone from the military. Well, it doesn't work like that.

I'm not sure either that I think she's ogling Lou. I think she's just confused by her. Lou is so much what Joy isn't. It's like she thinks 'here I am, being mostly closeted (inhibited) and losing my sweet padre and here is Lou, being so out and having a ball'. I do think there is an attraction there precisely because Lou is so feromonal and so chameleonic all the time that she sort of reminds everybody very acutely that they do need and enjoy sex. And because she's the one around when they have this 'revelation' they develop a thing for her. Highly sexual and liberated people have that effect on most of us. Lou is like them people from commercials about the latest perfume or something, they walk on a street and everybody notices them and follows them. It happened with Joy, with Pat, with the SMO. I'm waiting to see who's next. This partly goes to explain why did the SMO even think about what's between her and Joy so soon after all of them meeting each other. It's in the air and Lou is having a great time keeping it in the air.

I think with Joy Shed are trying to say again and again that it is not easy and clear cut running a prison, that you shouldn't think a certain career prepares you better for it than others (or that it prepares you at all). Helen, Karen, Myers, Grayling, Joy, even that twit from the private company that was going to take over, they all tried different approaches. None of them worked on their won. What Shed are trying to show is that it takes somebody who can change tactics in mid fight, somebody flexibile and inspired enough (to come up with new tactics) to cope with the various situations that arise from dealing with a bunch of locked up human beings (which are unpredictable anyway, even the drugged ones the muppet wing). Maybe Lou is this maverick, most certainly Helen would have become one.

I have no problem with that characterization of her, I just don't believe it's consistent with a successful military career, which we're given the impression she had. The first sign of trouble, she's not only wrong-footed, as you so aptly put it: she's paralyzed, totally frozen, can't think who to call, asks people to repeat perfectly clear messages multiple times, etc. She'd never have made it to even a mid-level command with that kind of inability to respond to crisis. That's pretty much what the military grooms you for. So my point is, if that's what they're doing with her char development, they've set up a straw man, which is too bad, imo, as it's actually a pretty interesting approach for them to consider exploring. I just want them to do it a bit more fairly, & thus far, haven't seen much evidence of that.

...As opposed to Emira, whose presentation is complex & carefully balanced: a lot of the points she makes politically are dead accurate, despite the fact that I think she is in fact complicit in terrorist activities & hasn't come off as very likeable. (Otoh, she's pregnent, & Shed tends to get all moist around the eyes about pregnant mums in prison.) Emira 'just wanted to finish this page' at 6am--page of what, homework? I think she might've been writing out instructions for handling of explosives or some such--and showed no surprise or alarm at the sight of 20 guys storming into their apartment. Yeah, you can rehearse for that day if it comes, but I still suspect it'd be pretty scary/shocking. Unless you're anticipating it.

I see your point now about Joy. The char has great drama potential and I even think the acting would be spot on. So let's hope they're not into straw women.

re Emira: wasn't she a chemistry student with an impending exam? she even asks for her books to be brought to prison so she can study and take the exam if she is released in good time.

I still can't make up my mind if either her or her man were involved in any terrorist activities. The only 'evidence' suggesting that would be that the guy fled so quickly when the police appeared. You don't do that unless you know you're in bigger trouble if you stay. I think what will come out will be that he was indeed associated with terrorist cells without Emira knowing and this will make her question her faith (conversion) and her trust in him. Maybe because in that way they will touch upon the mastermind behind the July7 bombings, the guy married with kids. They were all next door guys, but this one had a non-muslim wife and kids.

Hi munky,

I think your ideas about Emira are probably much more likely where the show's going, yes, although it could be just as, or more interesting, to show her as someone with high ideals who's taken the wrong path to achieving them. As for being a chemistry student just up studying, you're probably right there too, & agree abt the husband; but also, re "evidence", they mentioned on the news, I think, that traces of something or other--explosives residue, something pretty damning--were found in the apt. But yes, they're probably setting things up to show she's been misled & lied to. I do think she knows where he is, there was a change of expression in her face during that part of the police interview that suggested uncertainty & possibly knowledge. --e

oh yes, she probably does know where he is.
showing "her as someone with high ideals who's taken the wrong path to achieving them" would be great development. it would be Shed's way of saying 'look, it's ok to have different views and high ideals and to pursue them, but the way you are going about it is not the way'
I think it is not incidental that she took the path of becoming a chemistry student. I might be mistaken but wasn't her husband who put her into university (as a way of taking her out of the gutter). Interesting choice there, chemistry, I wonder why...

I think you make some very good points about Emira and her husband Munky, and I'm pretty sure you're right about the direction that they are taking it in. It would certainly serve to highlight and reflect the situation that most of the families of the July 7 bombings have been in. And hmmm yes, you're right, it is rather curious that she is studying Chemistry! If she can whip up a batch of crystal-meth in her kettle, what else could she do! (Incidentally the kettle in her cell, also adds to abzug's point about them now having televisions in their cells, and one would have to question the wisdom of them being able to have access to kettles full of boiling water up on the landing! Especially if in addition to this,with only a few common household products, anybody who is already in prison for manufacturing crystal meth, would be able to have a thriving business with the aid of a kettle!)

yah, and put the kettle on would be a very different kettle of fish. Why bother with all them false kisses and snugs during visits when you can make your meth inside.

I was as surprised to see kettles in each 'room' and for the same reason. I mean, who needs to bother hiding razor blades, sticking them into toothbrushes and then manouvring them with the precision necesary to cut another person.

Then I thought that we've been asking for improvements to the prison conditions and more trust in the prisoners and now when we have them, we complain.

Still, when you think of the days of Yvonne's sex-phone thing. I mean where are the days when even Yvonne was careful with her phone cards. Now it seems that Natalie's business dealings could continue uninterupted in prison. She seems to be able to pick up the phone and ask for various illegal & dirty services any time she wants and needs too. So do Phyl & Bev when they need something. What happened to listening to their conversations?

Not to mention the enhanced wardrobe and makeup. I mean Shell must be turning in her muppet cell for what she's missing.

The business with the kettle does illustrate that there are lapses in the standards of realism in order to be able to pursue the plotlines that they want to achieve. On the other hand, Shed are doing fine in bookending the 'TV news on Elmira' against what is happening inside Larkhall although they are keeping what Elmira has done deliberately vague and I am very interested to see how this is developed.
The posts about Joy are particularly interesting and I suppose the way it can be resolved is that Joy's experience has been in military establishments where subordinates take their orders, etc and that is that. In the prison environment, the portrayal of Spiers brown nosing and exploiting the situation for its own ends becomes possible when prisoners are involved. This is because they are anything but militaristic. It explains why situations arise that are totally unexpected that completely throws her.
What was particularly interesting was the Christmas special where Joy's feelings about Christmas and singing carols seemed to have an element of child like (not childish) and her dressing up in that uniform shows has a theatrical feel that you wouldn't expect from her. She has views of prisoners 'improving themselves' as opposed to the totally cynical Bodybag approach but on her terms. What I thought interesting was her decision to let the padre do the exorcism when her attitude to anything mystical is definitely to 'keep her feet planted on the ground.' It was
prompted by her fear of a riot breaking out and her willingness for once to try something out in left field.
I certainly agree that it would be a mistake just to portray her as a figure of fun and her uptightness about being an 'out lesbian' shows her vulnerability along with her disinclination to talk about personal matters to Lou.

I agree that this series is less realistic and the prisoners seem to have more free space.
i.e. kettles in each room, TV in each room, no listening in on the phone.

Just to comment on something azbug raised the other day re: Emira:

My guess is that Emira was put up on G3, more for her own safety (i.e. single cell) since she refused to go to to an area of the prison for vulnerable prisoners, as Grayling had suggested.

By the mid of series three Helen had all the lifer's up on G3. And that stayed reasonably consistent for a couple of years. But who knows how things are being organised these days. I can't remember if Joy's addressed anything with regards to the 'priveleges scheme' for Basic, Standard and Enhanced levels.

I think this a really interesting observation about Joy, and I hope they explore it more. We may think of the prison system as being hierarchical (if it wasn't, why would Fenner be so intent on being made wing gov, and then governing gov, right?). But in truth, so much of what we've seen at Larkhall is about characters who undermine the hierarchy. Fenner undermines Helen's authority every chance he gets. He does the same thing with Karen, although more subtly. Spiers was working every angle he could, as Richard points out. In contrast, in the military, the hierarchy is much more fundamental and concrete. Soldiers can be court-martialed for disobeying orders from a superior. From day one people in the military are trained to show respect to their superiors (saluting, standing at attention, yes sir, no sir etc), til the point that it becomes automatic, unquestionable, inviolable. So anyone who comes from that kind of hierarchical environment is going to find the prison service at least slightly confusing/overwhelming in its inconsistencies and manipulative power struggles.

This did occur to me, and I think you're probably right. Would have been nice if they had actually alluded to it in the dialogue, but oh well. ;)

The only thing I remember was that Joy matched up low level offenders with high level offenders, which is what got Pat and Sheena put into the same cell. Strange, since lifers are supposed to have their own cells, as we know from S2 and Babs and Nikki. So it does seem like Joy started changing the ways cells and roommates are assigned.

Well, I thought Natalie was at least somewhat cryptic in her phone conversation with her drug supplier, so they are still somewhat aware of the limitations on phone conversations when they are writing the scripts. Bev's questions about the doctor would seem innocuous enough--I don't think it would be considered illegal behavior to find out more about a prison employee, would it? But yeah, they do seem to emphasize these kinds of rules and restrictions on prisoner communication when it serves the themes/plots, and forget about it a bit when it doesn't. But in the end, I've generally felt that if the characters and storytelling are strong enough, I'm not bothered by these types of oversights. Although I know I was the one who complained about an utter lack of logic in season 6, which I guess just goes to show that I really like Pat and Lou and so nothing else is concerning me right now. :)

It may be that i'm being dense, but I though that inmates' phone calls were listened to on a random basis? Originally, Shell, Denny, and Shaz were able to make nuisance phone calls to Barbara's stepdaughter. It wasn't until she complained that Karen started listening in to their conversations.

Nope, you're not being dense--Shaz and Denny's crank calls to Barbara's kids were definitely monitored (I thought it was just random monitoring that caught it, not a specific complaint made, but I haven't seen those eps for a few months so I could be remembering wrong). There have also been at least a few other passing references to the fact that those calls on the pay phone are NOT private. Just starting with Shell's cryptic request for her friend to send in a "bone" (ie a mobile) made it pretty clear she knew she could potentially be heard by the POs.

Phew, well that's a relief!!

I'm wondering if kettles are allowed in prison cells these days. BG is sometimes a tad behind when it comes to these things, i.e. PIN numbers replacing phonecards etc.

I think I also remember Hollamby making some reference to it 'all going downhill when they started allowing televisions into cells' a couple of series ago.

If I recall correctly (and its only been a few weeks for me, so it would be sad if I didn't), the first prisoner who gets a tv in her cell is the evil Natalie Buxton, because she impressed Joy with her spic and span cell (and meanwhile Pat had to get up at 5 am and do calesthenics). Definitely hearkening back to S1-2 where Shed was always exploring the idea that the incentive systems could be so thoroughly manipulated as to be useless in motivating prisoners to behave well.

I had another thought on the subway this morning. Am I the only one who has noticed that most of the prisoners don't seem to hate being in prison these days? Back in the early seasons, there was always this sense that prison was an absolutely horrible place, and while happy moments and loving relationships could occur, the overall situation was truly emotionally intolerable. Now when I think of most of the prisoner characters (Pat, Darlene, Janine, Tina, the Julies etc, even Natalie) none of them seem all that miserable, other than when they are being bullied by Natalie. They don't seem to be yearning for life on the outside, the way characters like Nikki did, or Roisin, or even the Julies back in the day. Its like everyone has become institutionalized, and Larkhall is seeming just the tiniest littlest bit like summer camp.

Well there's Phyl and Bev...

Apart from that, G-Wing seems to be stuffed with inmates who don't really have any loved ones on the outside. People like Pat, Natalie and the Julies are also serving hugely long sentences...

Good point though abzug...I am worrying about the amount of time you're spending thinking about BG on the subway though!!

Oh and Miniature Dalek...cool name...although you did used to scare the crap out of me when I was a kid.