H-e-l-l-o! Where is everybody? All cowering behind your sofas from that scary Eddie? :eek You can come out now, she's gone!

Wow! What a quick turnover of personnel they seem to be having this Series! Here today, gone tomorrow! Is there no job security in BG anymore! Well at least there won't be any Fenners hanging around for 7 years! Which is possibly not exactly a bad thing where dear Angela is concerned! Although very sad for Bev, who'll have to do her own ironing again! They do their own ironing now? Bloody hell! What would a wing full of Natalies and Angelas be able to get up to with a couple of steam irons and a few kettles! Bev's lucky she didn't get a few of her wrinkles ironed out!

And Emira's stay was also rather short! So much for all our speculation on where they were taking her story! I did think they could have made a bit more of it though.

As for Lou's sexuality and what she was doing in the Massage Parlour, well I'm still none the wiser! She did seem genuinely surprised when "Eddie" suggested that she fancied Pat, so it would appear that thought hasn't occurred to her (yet!). Maybe it will give her something to think about!

It would seem that Sheena really is gone without a trace and without a hint of regret, if Buxton has already observed that Pat fancies the new Dep!

And what happened to the Muppet Wing? Why did Angela have to be shipped out to a secure unit? She's no worse than Podgy Pam or Tessa Spall were at the height of their Muppetiness!

Hooo, JAMBF, your post absolutely cracked me up! Wait, let me use an emoticon here. :rofl I had the same thought about the muppet wing, btw. Although in truth they set up this kind of thing when they shipped Shell out in S5--the idea that the truly mentally ill are sent to another sort of institution. But still, it doesn't make the most logical sense. Of course, you always need to be just the tiniest bit flexible with Bad Girls when it comes to logic. :)

Overall I thought this was an intriguing episode. It definitely seems transitional, an episode which is setting the stage for future plotline culminations. And JAMBF, since you liked my section headers so much last week, I decided to use them again:

Playing with Point of View
The aspect of the episode I found the most surprising was that for the first time we were put inside the heads of characters with altered mental states. Unless I am mistaken, this is a brand new narrative strategy for Bad Girls. We've had mentally ill or drug-addicted characters before (Pam Jolly, Miranda, Zandra, Roisin etc), but we've always observed them from the outside. In this episode, we see the drug-addled Natalie and the multiple-personality-disordered Angela looking at themselves in the mirror, fully in the grips of their altered mental states. Natalie's head becomes distorted, Angela hears voices and has conversations with herself. We know Pam Jolly also heard voices, but we knew this because she told Helen, not because we actually heard those voices from her point of view. I'm not totally certain as to the meaning of this shift in narrative strategies, but its certainly noteworthy.

Angela Stirs Things Up, Exposes Everyone
Angela to me was the best kind of single-episode guest star. She stirred up and exposed many issues for many significant characters. We see Dr. Dunlop making the immoral and self-interested decision to keep her on the wing so he can continue to observe her, I'm assuming for material for his television program. We see Pat have to defend herself against a homophobic attack, and if I am not mistaken, this is the first time Pat explicitly, verbally identifies as a dyke.

The whole sexual assault on Lou sequence was definitely disturbing and uncomfortable to witness. (I held a pillow in front of my face for most of it.) But it did interest me as a sort of mirror image of a traditional lesbian-related rape narrative/cliche, where a heterosexual woman is raped/assaulted by a man, and then as a reaction turns to women for future sexual relationships. In this case, Lou does the opposite: she's assaulted by a woman, and then immediately turns to a man for sexual gratification. Perhaps this is yet another twist in Lou's very mysteriously constructed sexuality. By which I mean, the above mirror idea only works if you assume that Lou is a lesbian by nature, and was driven to this particular heterosexual activity by the experience of the rape. In which case (I know it seems circular) this juxtaposition of the sexual assault and then the (unemotional?) heterosexual sex could be a (counterintuitive) clue that Lou is primarily a lesbian, not heterosexual.

And yet again, Natalie uses a mentally ill woman as a strategic, precisely targeted weapon. She has a kind of eerie understanding of the mentally ill and how to manipulate them. First Miranda against Christie in the Xmas ep, and now Angela against Pat. In fact, I could argue that her control over the drug addicts on the wing is part of the very same strategy. (There definitely seems to be an equation of drug users and the mentally ill in this ep.) It actually occurred to me that this could be analyzed as a political/economic metaphor, where the evil political capitalist (ie Natalie) is able to step back and use the crazies in society to do her dirty work. Kind of like the way GWB uses the Christian right against gay people. Perhaps a bit of a stretch? But regardless, Natalie's ability to manipulate and control those who can't really control themselves seems like a model for a phenomenon which exists in society at large.

Natalie vs Pat
Speaking of Natalie's strategies in combat, I thought the development/heating up of the conflict with Pat was quite well-done. I was surprised when Pat drew the women's attention to hung-over Natalie as an example they should avoid--so Pat's goal with Natalie WAS about emphasizing the evils of over-consumption, more than anything else. And now, of course, the battle is brewing over Janine. Brilliantly evil strategy by Natalie to turn her into a drug addict (and another good demonstration of why women become addicted to drugs in prison, a la Roisin, but distinctly and intriguingly different). I liked how Pat is still not willing to use the prison system against Natalie (the whole "I'm not a grass" attitude which she completely embraces, possibly to her detriment, but we will see).

A few little quibbles or complaints about the episode
I thought Natalie's line about Pat having a crush on Lou was forced. We really haven't seen enough (and therefore how has Natalie seen enough?) to really contemplate this possibility, so the mention of it seems like forced shorthand, to start setting the stage for something between Pat and Lou which hasn't been sufficiently set up otherwise. Similarly, I thought Lou's liaison with the doctor felt a bit rushed. They've flirted twice and fought, and suddenly they're screwing in the bathroom? The only rationale for this in my mind is that its meant to be an utterly insignificant occurrence in Lou's mind. Of course, we won't know until next week whether this is the case, so we'll just have to wait and see what Lou's reaction is. Does she dismiss Dr. Dunlop or does she attempt to pursue some sort of ongoing relationship with him? My other little complaint was with the resolution of Emira's storyline. The exchange she had with her husband was interesting, particularly in terms of showing how someone who is non-radical can get pulled into terrorist behavior. However, it was hard to believe she and her husband would have that type of conversation in front of the police. She's been so private so far, so protective, and even if she was shocked to discover her husband was involved, that still didn't seem to be enough to crack her stubborn resistance.

Hullo peeps... golly Abzug, you must be scary working under a deadline if this is what you manage without one! ;)

re Playing w/pov
Again, obviously far & away the most significant change for the show. Am trying to suspend judgment for the moment--but they have done this before in some ways & then gone back to business as usual. My personal feeling is it's a tricky stunt at the best of times. Remember the privitization ep, with the characters facing the camera & each doing their little monologue? If it's a standard mode of address for the piece you're dealing with, it's a little less obvious, but if it's a radical departure, it calls attention to itself; the often *un*intended consequence is to take you out of the material, decrease your emotional involvement with it: you're standing back suddenly, thinking about Technique. This is what happened here, at least for me: the woman who played Angela/Andy was good, certainly capable of conveying everything we 'saw' from inside her head through her acting. So the extra stuff didn't add anything for me, was just a distraction: didn't like the handling of mirrors, very cliched. And we've seen Shell in the mirror, distorted (S2) to somewhat (not much) subtler effect.

Definitely agree it's something to keep an eye on though. ;)


re Angela stirs things up
Yep, some of the incidentals around Pat and Lou were more interesting (to me) than the ep as a whole (which I agree felt transitional). Dunlop's greedy: that's his Achilles' heel.


re Lou & assault/Dunlop
Huh. I didn't see the two as connected, I wonder how others read it. I mean, I suppose they are, it's the same person, they occur only a few scenes apart, it's a logical conclusion but... I felt that whatever was between Lou & the Doctor had been there from the start. As for whether it was credible she'd snog him in the hallway & then just go for it, I'm... em. Having Issues. The hallway kiss was pure cliche of the first order (as well for the shadowy boinking scene that followed) so it was impossible to feel convinced by any of the 'emotions' behind it. For me.


re Buxton
As for how Natalie can manipulate people, that was an especially interesting use of her skill, it's been there all along but it felt sort of like the scriptwriters just got it on a different level, you know? As for why... again, Buxton's a sociopath, pure & simple. It's her Special Gift.


re Buxton vs Pat
I have to differ a bit here, I found these developments pretty irritating, both because they were predictable & because I still don't find them entirely credible. I'm having trouble buying Pat's 'strategy' at all. She thinks she's going to make an *object lesson* out of Buxton? C'mon, that's just stupid. The women on the wing would *know* Buxton doesn't do drugs, only pushes them. It's a closed society, they'd know everything like that from how long so-and-so spends on the toilet every morning to how many drugs Bev is likely to have squirreled away. So they know whatever's brewing between Buxton & Pat is just about the two alpha-dogs (who really don't like each other anyway) facing off. Just felt like pure plot set-up for the rest of the season, but maybe others experienced it differently.


re Quibbles

There may be another way to read it: Buxton doesn't care if it's "true" or not, that's never a concern of hers. She's simply winding Robbins up, & this is one way to do it. Yes, obviously they're telegraphing... something, but it didn't bug me, I felt it did fit into the wind-up-the-psycho-&-see-who-she-kills strategy well enough that I was willing to shrug off the telegraphing.

Totally--already went off about this! ;)

Agreed--or to set up some tension betw them later in the season so that then they'll have a History. But it felt very clumsy & not believable to me too. Lou doesn't read to me like another Karen Betts either, I meant to add--the whole scene where she's arguing so sanely & practically to get Angela the hell out of the prison, I was thinking--if she lets him 'persuade' her to keep this woman I'm literally going to turn this show OFF. I wouldn't, but I think it's actually a mark of how believable I find the writing & characterization of Stokes to be that I got so potentially pissed: I can take a lot of machinations around characters I don't care about in this show, but she's far too interesting to have doing that kind of crap. And they've done it already (w/Betts)--so in no way would there be any excuse, you know?


re Emira
They dropped a bunch of stitches, imo. The most obvious being there is in fact no way the police would've brought her. Not unless she threatened them w/a lawsuit for tapping her illegally. Without using that leverage... what's the point?

Ok, I'm ready for next week! ;) (That doesn't mean I don't wanna talk or hear others talk about it more, but rather: I really am ready to find out what happens next. Which at a basic level still matters.)

oh--the scene w/Janine (do I have the spelling right?) in solitary? also felt different to me. We've seen a lot of different postures, angst, hair-pulling, screaming, etc., but this was very stepped-down, subdued, for the first time, perhaps, I had a real sensation of time passing, how long even a weekend could be. There wasn't any suicidal-type drama (although her fingers dragging along her feet suggested the possibility of self-harm), but it was still very effective, & moving--esp bec it was so quiet.

I suppose you could see it as similiar to Shell's allegation that Nikki must be shagging Helen in season 1 when she is moved up to Enhanced. Of course Shell probably did believe it to be true considering that is how she moved her way up to Enhanced.

People such as Natalie and Shell just literally spew lies a lot of the time. It hardly came as a surprise for Natalie to say such things to Angela, bringing out the Andy within her.

A question.. Since when has Pat actually been 'a dyke'? Has she rediscovered her sexuality since being with Sheena? Or did her ex- boyfriend put her off men for good? I thought she bisexual. Guess the words 'I'm happy with what I am' confirm it though.

AngelaAndyAngela. Isn't Annette Badland a fantastic actress? I've always thought so. Although I did have to squirm when she attacked Lou. It frightened me how much Andy came into play. I mean, this split personality of Angela's obviously believed he was a 'full man', and therefore would have believed that he could actually rape our dear Louise. I'm so glad that scene didn't go any further after the 'creep' was smacked and pushed away.

*Shudders*

Good use of freaky mirror action too last night. For a small moment, Natalie was a pin head :lol: Ignore me... :rolleyes:

Annette Badland played an absolute blinder last night. One second the meek and mild chambermaid, the next foul-mouted, violent Andy. IMO she was totally believable in both roles. Particularly liked the scene on the stairs with Pat when Andy switched back to a totally bewildered and petrified Angela.

The scene in the bathroom with Lou was horrible. "You won't let me snog you? Okay, so i'll lick your face instead". Great response by Lou, a right hook that would have had Mike Tyson in raptures.

Dr Dunlop, you bad lad you! Is he a baddie, or isn't he? The distinction is small. On one hand, he allowed a violently instable inmate back on the wing, but on the other, he wants to highlight the poor treatment of women with psychiatric problems in his TV show. But then there's point of view that he's making the show for his own benefit rather than the women. He's a very interesting character.

The battle for Janine's soul is now clearly on. In the red corner, the southpaw sociopath, in the blue corner, the righteous rightie.........

But hold on. Could it be that we're getting slightly worried about the depths Pat will sink to? Threatening someone with a shiv and force-feeding them drugs is hardly the behaviour of your typical 'goodie' is it? She is such a complicated and extreme character that I love her to bits. Pat, will you marry me?

Yesterday morning both Danielle and Liz were interviewed on GMTV, I believe.

They described Natalie as 'Bad Bad' and Pat as 'Good Bad' :rolleyes:

In other words (or what I like to think), Pat is like a rogue hero. She'll stick up and defend the innocent, and then just reek hell on the villains!

Oh dear! Poor Angela! As if she's not troubled enough! And here I am giving her a 3rd personality - Eddie! Of course her inner-bloke is Andy! Sorry Angela, didn't mean to burden you further!

Another Why? question - Why doesn't Lou wear the key chain, that on the lovely Helen caused many a heart to flutter? She carries her keys around with her, so anyone could grab them from her. I can't remember the first ep now - did Joy also not have the chain that they were able to get her keys to open the gates?

Andy. Eddie. The evil piece of work doesn't deserve a name :rolleyes:

Hiya! Ok, here are my initial views on the latest ep;


> First off, have they had a new exterior set?

> Since when has there been a gate in reception, seperating the desk from the prisoners waiting to be processed?

> I also wondered why Angela wasn't sent to the Muppet Wing - very strange. And I'm sorry to say that if she does not return, I think it was a pointless storyline. Nothing special really happened she was just kind of there, didn't really affect the other characters did she? So I hope she returns.

> In the dining area, when Natalie and Pat had that little argument and Natalie told Angela that Pat was a dyke, did it remind anyone else of Nikki and Shell? Shell never took to long to expose Nikki's sexuality to new inmates, and Nikki was always telling Shell to shut it or whatever.

> I'm interested to see where things go between Lou and Rowan. I'm assuming she doesn't know he's using his patients for some other project. And I don't suppose she'll be too thrilled if/when she finds out.

Good point about the mirror/inside-the-head-of-the-psychopath device. This probably explains why I wasn't able to figure out any "meaning" behind it--because there wasn't one, at least not a metaphorical meaning. It was just a cinematic device.

This is where I think I am less bothered than you because it works for me so well on the metaphorical level (ie the idea of exposing the evils of over-consumption, and overconsumption is the natural result of a materialist capitalist culture). In addition, its really setting up Pat as anti-drugs in a very deep way (maybe there's a reason for this in her background, maybe not, could it have something to do with Sheena and presumably the fact that she's lost Sheena back to drug addiction?). She is NOT happy seeing Janine start down this path, and she's obviously seen it happen a million times before. In this way, Pat really is representing this alternative form of social order. One that doesn't care about consumption, material goods, pleasure even. One that just cares about people being treated right, about no one being exploited etc. There was an interview somewhere where Ann and Chad talked about having been members of the communist party, and I feel like that kind of thing is coming into play here.

Ah, thanks, this makes me feel MUCH better. I think you are absolutely right. In that way, its making Pat seem pathetic (being attracted to the Deputy Gov--talk about LAME), which is something Natalie would certainly do.

Yes, I noticed this as well. I thought their main goal when filming this scene was to make Janine look really really small. Which you can do with this actress because she is so small. And that was incredibly moving and sad--she just looked like the tiniest most insignificant most powerless spec in the universe in that moment.

Well, that's the interesting thing about Pat, isn't it? We've never really known what her sexual "identity" is, only her sexual "behavior" (ie she had a boyfriend, she had a girlfriend--and it wasn't her first girlfriend). It just occurs to me as I am typing this that this kind of plays into the idea I mentioned in my first post about Lou falling into the arms of a man after having been assaulted by a woman. Pat dated men for some period of time. We don't know if she was bisexual or straight back then. She obviously had a horrible abusive relationship with her boyfriend (given that it ended in her murdering him), and since then (by all evidence) has turned to women.

Yes indeed! This is the whole thing about greed and self-interest: where does it stop? At a certain level its ok and within the bounds of morality. But then at some point it crosses over a line, and what's scariest is that Dunlop might not even be aware of when he is crossing that line--he has convinced himself so thoroughly that his goals are to help the women by exposing their horrible situations, when in fact as you point out he also wants to make himself into a star.

You're going to have to go through me first, MD! But yes, Pat's methods are certainly very questionable. And her moral code is very personal, so there's something at least a little worrisome about her executing so much power. Whenever a single person is judge, jury and executioner, there's a potential for abuse. So far they've indicated that Pat wouldn't go this far, but who knows? Btw, did anyone else notice the line where Bev referred to Pat as their top dog and then said something like "She's very tense." Which I thought was hilarious (Bev was in rare form in this episode, showing she's fantastic even without Phyl), but also very revealing of Pat. She is NOT Nikki--she doesn't seem to have any relaxed, emotional caring relationships with any of the inmates. Can you imagine the Julies asking her to help them ferment wine? No way.

I'm pretty sure she won't return, but I don't think she was pointless. We learned A LOT about Dr. Dunlop, in particular, which we would never have seen without such a mentally ill and dangerous inmate on the wing. We saw Lou's strength in the face of disagreement (from Dr. Dunlop) and attack (from Andy). We learned a bit more about Pat's sexuality. These were all really important progressions in our understanding of these characters, and we wouldn't have learned this stuff with just the regular characters on the wing. That said, I do think its interesting that it appears they are introducing NO long-term inmate characters this season. We got four (three?) new POs and no new inmates, other than these single or multi-episode guest stars.

I suppose she did help us see developments of other characters. But I do agree that they should bring some new permanent inmates in.

I just thought she could have been in for at least one more episode. It would have added more suspense to her character.. I would have liked to know the exact reason to why Andy was created. I guess Rowan didn't have the skills to find out though. That, and the fact that Lou didn't give him the time as she wanted her/him as far away as possible!

You're right though, Angela did come in handy for revealing small things about other characters.

'Save the revenge for when you can stand up straight without getting the shakes.'

Ah, I love Pat :rolleyes:

Love that quote from Pat!

And i also think that Angela should have stayed for another ep at least, so we could find out more about Andy and how the whole split personality thing really formed.

I thought they actually provided enough information about that for us to have a pretty clear idea. From what I've gathered about multiple personality disorder (and in truth what I've gathered has been from popular culture, so it could all be myths and not the reality) it often occurs due to extreme abuse in childhood. From that flashback scene (again with the flashbacks! Very interesting!) we're meant to think that Angela was sexually abused by this older man (her father?) in what seemed to be a violent manner (I'm guessing that from all the screaming). In certain children, this would be enough to generate the second personality to protect the weaker personality from the abuse.

I also think she was abused by her father, it seems pretty clear. Not sure whether it was sexually abuse or just a thrashing off her father.

So, are we presuming that Andy came from an abusive childhood? That he was always there from a long time ago, locked away?
I'm guessing that there was never a 'real', human form Andy, so to speak.
To coincide with the childhood beliefs, I think that Andy is just how Angela see's men in her own mind. Just like her father. He was never actually 'her boyfriend'. That was just the label she put on him.

And if Angela believes all men to be this way, then that would explain why she was unsure of seeing Doctor Dunlop. Or was that Andy at this point? That was the only time I was unsure between the character exchange.

I'm actually unsure of the whole thing I've written now, but there we are... :rolleyes:

Yep, that's the way I understood it too...

Have just realised that I missed a couple of posts here! I was responding to abzug's post...it was pretty clear to me that Angela had developed her second identity to protect her from the abuse she suffered.

Oh, have a good weekend all, i'm about to toddle off early...it's FRIDAY! :party

Brutal! I just got to work an hour ago! Ugh, can't wait for this week to be over.

Such fantastic discussion about this episode. I just finished watching it this morning (it downloaded overnight while I was at work). Powerful episode on many levels and I could certainly see parallels drawn to the earlier seasons. And definitely a transitional episode.

Pat, Sexuality, Power & Protection
There's definite comparisons between the Pat & Natalie animosity and Nikki & Shell's animosity. Like Nikki, Pat seems overly protective of the more vulnerable inmates such as Janine, but whereas Nikki fought Dockley off with more ascerbic wit, Pat is quite willing to use force against force (Though Nik briefly did same after Shell made the comment about a place in the line opening up after Rachel died).

And indeed the harkening back to earlier seasons what with Natalie winding up Angela/Andy with allusions to Pat's sexuality being similar to the way Shell tormenting Barbara with Nikki's orientation.

One further comparison of Pat to Nikki is in their unwillingness to 'grass' on fellow inmates to the screws. For Pat, this meant even though she despises Natalie and everything she stands for, there's an internal code not to inform the screws of ill deeds (directly anyway). For Nikki, it was not grassing to Helen about other inmates possible (likely) liaisons with Fenner.

And while the writers directors seem to be drawing these comparisons (or at least setting it up that the audience can see the comparisons), they also point out that in other ways, Pat is not like Nikki at all.

Dr. Dunlop
Cagey bastard this fellow is. While on the outset he seems like he wants to do good with the mentally ill inmates and getting them proper care, he was like Thomas in that regard, certainly better than Dr. No No. But Dunlop's got shady interests in the development of the well-beings of the inmates and how they will benefit him in his 'documentary'. Wonder how long it will take for Lou to find out.

Development of Tina O'Kane
This is quite interesting developments here. Now Tina is most certainly not the brightest of the bunch, but she's got a heart of gold and wants to protect mates (like Janine) from the likes of Natalie. I suppose she can see in Natalie the bully that her sister Maxi was. Tina's loyal and someone you want to be friends with.

The Julies
Where the bloody hell are they?

I like the development of Tina as well. I'm glad she's not being sucked in by Natalie as well, and I do agree that it's probably because of what she dealt with with Maxi.


Julies - where? Did I miss some sort of explanation as to their whereabouts? Or were they just forgotten about for the episode?

No explanation, just not in the ep. For a moment I had forgotten that Sylvia was in two scenes, and I thought this was the first ep of BG which included NO original cast members.

Wow. This post has unreeled in very short order.
I loved Lou's crack at Joy about even Margaret Thatcher giving up the 'short, sharp shock' approach to prisons which I very well remember along with a lot of utterly loathsome values which she left behind. They have remained thanks to Blair but at least, thank God, are being contested. Joy's response was very neatly phrased and something that I shall watch.
The portrayal of Angela / Andy immediately made me think of a book that I read ages ago called 'The Three Faces of Eve', about a woman with two dissociated personalities battling for control and Abzug's description of the portrayal of mental illness was very well put. It was injteresting how little impact Natalie's freak out over the drugs she took left her with horrifyingly no sympathy for those similarly placed like Janine. You got the feeling that Pat's well meant attempt to get Natalie to learn that lesson has failed unfortunately
This is the first time that Janine has started to come to the fore, being Natalie's brainless weak sidekick and the acting is really starting to show. While Pat's unwillingness to grass was reminiscent of Nikki and Yvonne, Janine's have touches of resemblance to Rachel Hicks. The final scene between Elmira and Tina was a touching, low key affair.
I agree with everything else about dr Dunlop- very quiet but definitely unethical complete with switching records- Lou and Pat. One interesting comment by Lou is that 'she wouldn't expect Pat to be violent' , an interesting position to take up and a touch reminiscent of Helen and Nikki.
The finale with Elmira suggests a 'all live happily ever after' which in these days where the police and Elmira's husband are concerned might be selling a brilliant story short.

Thanks for the explanation of this reference, Richard. Of course it went right over my American head, so I'm glad to understand the context now. What was Joy's response again and what did it tell you about her?

Ah, very interesting! It hadn't occurred to me that Pat was trying to teach Natalie some empathy, although I know I am the one who said something about "a taste of her own medicine" but I didn't take it so far as this. But I think you could be right, this was one aspect of Pat's motivation. But of course, Natalie is the quintessential narcicist--she truly has no ability to put herself in anyone else's shoes, or to regard other people as human beings. Everyone is just a tool to her to achieve her own ends. Very very disturbing.

Great association between Janine and Rachel Hicks here. I also think of Shaz, the other weak, bullied character who we've seen in the past. Rachel was the only one of the three who didn't have a strong prisoner looking out for her (Janine has Pat, and Shaz had Denny of course). Rachel looked to Fenner for protection, and the show was pretty clear that she was looking in a very wrong direction (that'll teach her a lesson for rebuffing Nikki!). Janine is potentially going down a similar path with her attachment to Donny. It will be interesting to see how that plays out--is it more of a Dominic-Zandra type thing, which was portrayed in a favorable, non-exploitative manner? Or will it wind up being more like Fenner and Rachel, where Janine loses her relationship network among the inmates and is therefore more vulnerable to Natalie? In the end, Rachel and Janine would be luckier if they were lesbians like Shaz, where their romantic life wouldn't have to undermine their position as a protected person in the prisoner's hierarchy.

Yes, I noted this as well. So, like Helen, Lou is a good judge of character. Which we know Joy is not. I also think they set up Lou's judgment of Pat quite well, because from the first episode, Lou has seen Pat in nurturing, caretaking mode, and knows she stands up for the inmates (with her comment about a screw caring about the cons in ep 2).

Did you think so? I still felt like Emira's husband was going to be in serious trouble, even if he took the police to the buried explosives etc. While Emira got out, it was clear her husband was NOT getting out, and I almost felt they left it unsaid because it didn't need to be said--the police were going to do whatever they had to do to use the husband to get to the real terrorists. They had established already through Emira's words and through Donny and the police's immoral actions that suspected terrorists are not treated fairly by law enforcement, so I felt like the lack of information about their future was more like an 'unhappily ever after' kind of ending.

Yes abzug, thank goodness for your bosses ADD! But rest assured, that unlike him we read the content of your posts, and not only the section headers! ; )

Playing with Point of View:
I, like ekny, found the image of Angela's alter ego in the mirror a distraction and a bit gimmicky. Why couldn't they just have focussed on her for the change from one character to the other like they did for the rest of the episode? Even if it was to clarify the fact that there were two separate individuals, I think the actress was perfectly capable of conveying that anyway. It will indeed be interesting to see if they continue with the technique, or if it was just this particular director who took this route.(Lance Kneeshaw, as opposed to Barnaby Southcombe in the first two eps.) There was also the camera following the wires from the bug listening in to Emira and the Imam's conversation, through the floorboards or wall cavities or whatever it was, to the officers listening in. That also felt gimmicky to me. Although the thought has just occurred to me, that it may also add to the suggestion of the prison being an entity in its own right - the idea of the camera taking us through its arteries or internal organs!

Quibbles:
I agree that we haven't seen enough to know whether Pat has a crush on Lou or not, and that Buxton wouldn't care whether it's true or not, but it is odd that she should pick Lou to suggest Pat has a crush on, it could just as easily been anyone else, and the effect on Angela would have been the same. Could it be that Nat has a sixth sense about these things, as well as being able to Spot The Muppet? And I would have liked to have seen the reason why Angela (or rather Andy), so particularly disliked lesbians clarified a bit more. What was that all about, and how did he/she pick that up so easily just from one look at Pat, when we are having to deliberate about whether she is lesbian or bisexual? He/she makes some remark along the lines of "So she wants to be a man does she?" which is rather ironic I suppose.

Shagging Lou in the loo!
The thing with Lou and the doc was certainly rather improbable, especially the shagging in the loos - I'm assuming they were the staff loos and anyone could have walked in! Surely neither of them would be that reckless! I would have thought if anything Lou would have been put off by the doc's constant nagging her to go out for a drink (even in Angela's hearing - which Lou seemed uncomfortable with), it was somehow a bit reminiscent of Sean nagging Helen to marry him. Maybe there is something in abzug's explanation of her turning to a man in the aftermath of an assault by a woman (EEEUUUWW! Wasn't that dreadful! Rather Lou than me - having old Angela bearing down on her, tongue flailing everywhere! I wouldn't mind seeing some outtakes of that scene though, it must have been funny to film, however ghastly it was to watch!)

Pat and Drugs:
The Official BG site has this to say about Pat -
'At age 16 she suffered a breakdown and was prescribed diazepam. This was for her a paradoxical stimulation, which increased aggression, anger and violence in her behaviour. No one would listen to Pat when she recognised drugs as the culprit. To this day she has no trust of doctors or anyone else in authority.'
This may go some way to explaining her attitude to drug taking in general - she sees them as the main cause of the problems of most of the women, and if Nat is pushing them, then she is the root of the problem.
Interesting too that she has no trust of anyone in authority - that would be a hurdle for her to overcome then, if she fancies Lou.

Yes abzug, I enjoyed Bev's line about Pat being very tense, and the follow up - "just like you"! She likes to live dangerously does Bev! I also enjoyed her line "No, all a tidy bed shows Angela, is a dull night"! And no, I definitely can't imagine the Julies asking Pat to help them make wine!: ) Incidentally, another thing the BG website says about Pat is 'She loves a laugh'! Eh? Not that I've ever noticed!

It is interesting that although Pat and Angela were both abused as children, they have responded to it in such different ways. Another thing,Angela when she is Angela, is very meek, mild mannered and obliging, but it is her coping mechanism - the usually hidden Andy, who is tough. Pat, on the other hand is outwardly tough, as a coping mechanism, but the hidden part of her is concerned for others and caring.

Lezli, I think it was definitely Andy that didn't want to see the male doctor - she used Andy's voice in that moment, but it was a very quick switch back to Angela.

abzug, your point about Angela's sexual abuse possibly being enough to generate a second personality, to protect the weaker personality from abuse, is a bit problematic for me. Andy doesn't appear to me to be in any way protective of Angela, on the contrary he seems to possibly be a manifestation of her abusive father. He calls her a slag and all sorts of other nasty things, she mentions that he drinks a lot and is abusive of her if his shirts are not ironed correctly. He attacks and sets fire to the man he catches her with, not to protect Angela, but because he is jealous, and sees her as a dirty slag wanting to open her legs to all the men she meets. Echoes of her father surely?

Hi Abzug. What is fascinating is that Shed have campaigned against the attitude to prisons that Thatcher engendered, that criminals will be deterred from committing crimes by making prisons as horrible as possible and that prisoners are having a soft time as they have colout TV's etc. She was definitely at the heart of that attitude along with many other reactionary points of view. I remember one cartoon that still amuses me and has modern resonances if you change the names. It is a parody of the 'Gone with the Wind' poster of Clark Cable holding Vivien Leigh (?) in his arms except the faces are Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. In the background is the mushroom cloud of a H bomb explosion and the caption is "She promised to follow him to the end of the earth. He promised to organise it."
Joy's response to Lou was 'Thatcher should have stuck to her guns like I'm going to" which was an intriguing take on the woman who was known as 'The Iron Lady.'
Shed made ample comment when they cut to a totally distraught Janine in the segregation cell.

Obviously I agree with your other two points and I must admit that you're probably right about the police. If you read into the attitude of the policemen that they are expected to get results, then Elmira's husband is that result and chopping his story short that he is being held for further questioning as well as their attitude that they will do anything to get results lends to that possibility.

This leads on to the character of Donny who superficially resembles previous 'nice guys' like Dominic and Mark except for his position as an undercover policeman which compromises his position from the start and Elmira's parting words to Janine makes that clear.

There's an interesting point about 'just another mad BG fan" that Natalie has that sixth sense in picking up on Pat's attraction to Lou. A bit of it is that Natalie follows the Shell line in being not altogether straight (though this is debatable) but also that Natalie has that same sixth sense that Fenner had. Another point is exactly what the construct of Andy was since 'he' turns on both Angela and her meek and mild attitude and also turns on those that Angela is meek and mild to. There is something in the idea that her father is the root of 'Andy.'

I meant to comment on the fact, that at last they have a black character on the other side of the bars, who appears to be a strong character in her own right. Unlike Paula in S6, who seemed to only really be there to highlight Sylvia's racism, it would appear that we are actually going to see more of Mandy Goodhue as a character. In the scene with her telling Angela that she would be taking her to see the doctor, I loved her response to Angela/Andy's "He's a man" line - "We all have our problems"!

What is rather surprising is Sylvia's attitude to her - in last week's episode, she was calling on Mandy to back her up on some issue - I think it was about how hard she worked or something, can't remember now, but surprisingly Mandy did support the old bigot. It is rather astonishing that Sylvia has gone from having a homophobic, white man who bullies women - including the cons, as her support, to a (so far) apparently lesbian, black woman, who seems to be quite easy going and sympathetic towards the women! Could it be that her Racism course did help Sylvia a little, and that her discovery of Bobby Darren's homosexuality has made her more tolerant in that regard? Now she just needs to be sent on a Religious Tolerance course, and she'll be a real little charmer! :D

Discussion with a friend over this matter:

Me: Answer me this. How do the new P.O, Mandy, and Sylvia get along?
Her: What do you mean?
Me: Mandy is both black and a lesbian. Sylvia is both racist and homophobic. How does that work?!
Her: :lol:
Me: Her kick up the backside from Frances' must of really worked!

Yeah, Donny is like the compromised, self-interested version of Dominic/Mark Waddle, while Dr. Dunlop is the compromised, self-interested version of Dr. Waugh (as I think someone else mentioned above). And while we don't really have enough information yet about Lou, she does seem to be a compromised version of Helen Stewart. Hopefully they're leading towards a more thorough exploration of the kinds of themes they explored with the character of Colin--he wasn't good or bad, he was trying to be good with many many obstacles in his way (his drug addiction primarily, and Fenner's exploitation of it secondarily). He was one of the few characters who didn't fall firmly on either side of that good vs evil divide.

:clap Yes, absolutely. Tis a puzzlement.

If I recall correctly, Paula and Colin were supposed to have a significant plotline, but then there were actor scheduling problems (Colin didn't appear in much of the second half of S6) and so the plotline was cut. A shame, because I thought they had done a good job with Paula in the small bits they gave her, and clearly were establishing her to be something more. I had also really enjoyed the Colin-Paula-Selena good guy triumverate.

The only reason I can think of why Bodybag and Mandy get along is that Mandy appears to be an 'older' prison officer and somehow safer. I got the feeling that Bodybag didn't take to Selena as a 'young upstart' before finding out that she is gay. It may be the case that Mandy keeps quiet about her private life and Bodybag doesn't know she's gay. I may be wrong about this but this is all I can come up with.

According to the official Bad Girls website, Mandy is very open about how she is, and being with her partner, Sandy.

Being able to feel safe with an older P.O does make sense though. Sylvia was always most comfortable with Jim, and he was old school. Maybe poor little Sylvia doesn't feel hip and down with the kids anymore :rolleyes:

I almost never read or pay attention to Shed's character 'notes', they seem to me very much whiteboard sketches that just as often lead us away from things to do with the show as things related to it. For example, does it actually make any difference that Nikki supposedly had a brother? Not to the story we saw, far as I can tell. If we never "knew" or had read that, it would be, simply, irrelevant: we'd never have missed it. So I don't make any special effort to incorporate that stuff into my own reading of the show. Obviously, Shed does provide for people who want the opposite, every scrap of info they can get from the source about the show & its characters, etc.

Lots of blacks at least in parts of the US vote conservatively for culturally- or religiously-motivated reasons, not necessarily political ones: the anti-homosexuality thing that some churches used to encourage a Republican vote is the obvious ex. It's possible Mandy's a sort of hybrid, a log-cabin dyke, as it were. Not the moneyed part, but the we're just like everyone else & we show it by keeping our boots firmly planted on other people's necks part. I realized as I read people's thughts here that had been my operating assumption: that Sylvia doesn't & can't really change. She might be more adept at ignoring issues around homosexuality, but in terms of the prisoners? She's totally inflexible. So anyone with her is going to basically support that attitude, gay or not.

Ok, someone I think on this thread mentioned the GMTV interviews. (When, o when will they get the search feature up & running here??! Please make it soon....)

I asked another boardmember to help me find the clips, which they most kindly did, so here are the links for you guys:


Liz May Brice and Dannielle Brent. This is morning TV: very Lite, extra-giggly. Somehow... I don't see that caveat keeping Brice's fans from clicking on the hyperlink. ;)

http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=14753...=streamingpopup


There's a link on that same page to another chatty morning interview with Antonia Okonma (Darlene) and Dannielle Brent (Buxton):
http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=14794

And a link on *that* page to an interview w/Debra Stephenson for some other show she's doing. No idea how long these will be up, though it seems the station is nice enough to keep them in place for awhile.


There is also a much older article (2003) abt some plan involving Faraday to help raise funds to build a school in Peru:
http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=7311&...nfiltered=print

That was me. Thanks for those :D

Cheers. ;) I wasn't the one who tracked them down but the thing is, if someone Over There posts to the board that there was a BG interview on British tv (which I'd, at least, have no way of knowing about otherwise), then there's always a chance someone can find the clip on the net while it's still current. So thank you!

Loved the Natalie-Pat interview. And while yes, it was not the most substantive thing in the world, I did think Brice made an interesting distinction regarding Pat's motives for being top dog--she doesn't actually want to be top dog, she just wants to make sure Natalie isn't. Reluctant leader, that sort of thing. I mean, I guess we already knew that--it sort of mirror's Pat's attitude about relationships. She's reluctant to be obliged or responsible for anyone, but she'll take those things on by choice. But the obligation of a girlfriend, or of being top dog, means constant responsibility, which she can't (won't let herself) shirk. That's a big burden for her.

Edited to add: on page 5 of the list of online interviews is one with Darlene and Janine.

I just had a thought, isn't there is something rather strangely coincidental about the names Mandy Goodhue and Amanda Donohoe?! :)

Maybe they're the same person...have we seen them in the same room together yet?? :D

Btw ekny...have just had a look at your profile and have copped another eyeful of that horrible devil dog you used to have as your avatar...

Is there something you want to tell us?

;)

The first time I ever saw those dog photos, I couldn't stop laughing. Like, hysterical fits, gasping for breath. I don't know if it was just how pathetic the dog was, or just the horror of it, so gremlin-like.

Now, onto this Lou not sleeping thing. Which is on my mind from reading Lezli's lovely fanfic. Her greasy hair was noticeable in Ep 3, I thought. And she was wearing jeans. Like, as a purposeful choice, not a "holy crap I got an emergency call from my boss and have to run to the office now." So, at the risk of winning the this season's state-the-obvious competition, I'm thinking Lou doesn't follow the "dress for success" maxim. But it seems to be more than that. A total lack of care or concern. Or she's incapable of holding it all together? She's actually so far seemed to be extremely competent at work, but there are all these little hints that she's falling apart a bit at the seams. But I guess the thing that's puzzling me is whether she just doesn't care (that seems to be the suggestion so far) or that there's something dangerous brewing beneath the surface....