Does England go to sleep after Bad Girls or something! Where is everybody? Surely you aren't all reeling from the shock of "The Master" having a clone!
And there you are abzug - you have another example of your theory of women who have been raped, turning to women!

At least we have the mystery of Lou's visits to the lap dancing club solved now! But they really led us up the garden path until the last minute, I was thinking that it must be an ex girlfriend that she was looking for! But this makes her sexuality even more uncertain!

There was a definite little echo of Helen & Thomas with Lou's line to the doc - "Don't psychoanalyse me!" wasn't there? But I think the line of the week must go to Sylvia - "The combination of a rope and a bunch of daft girls who share a brain, is a disaster waiting to happen!" :D

The Pat in a Hat was on her save Janine from drugs crusade again this week, but what was Darlene up to? Since when has she either been a grass, or concerned for Janine's welfare, does she also fancy Donny?

I thought it was a pretty slow episode, I keep switching over during it. Actually the Joy/Stella stuff was the only part I actually rather liked. I think Joy's turning into a fantastic character, I really hope they keep Stella around I rather warmed to her. The rape revelation was shocking but not unexpected.

I'm bored with the Rickaaay/Janine and Lou/DoctorDunlop romances, if I wanted to watch boring trite hetro romance I would watch every other programme on tv.

Natalie is so dull to me now that I just block her out, she's still a colourless black/white panto villian with nice hair but she wasn't in it much this week so we have that to thankful for.

Pat's hat was stupid and well made her look like a pretentious poser. Where does Pat get her new wardrobe from, did her collection of vests get stolen or something?!

Bodybag really is going soft in her old age!!! Poor woman I guess she feels comfortable with Joy because she's a woman of her age.

All the lesbian references this season seem to be of the wink, wink, nudge nudge "ha ha isn't Joy a sad old lech" variety. It seems out of keeping with what we know of Bad Girls and it's treatments of lesbians in the past. Unless it is specifically designed to mock Joy's closetness because its so ridiclous in Bad Girls universe that anyone would want to be closeted.

All this guessing game over people's sexualities is just not Bad Girls at all. So are Joy, Lou, Stella, Mandy gay. They only person we have confirmed on the show is Pat. This week the tease Stella over her "crush" on the Master desended it into a juvenile farce one would expect on an American show and certainly not Bad Girls.

I have to agree with the tone of raffles' post, and am not going to say a lot more after this until I've uh...processed or seen more or had time to think about this ep, or unless someone can talk me down from the lingering aftertaste: every possible lesbian subplot's just been axed. Which (personally) I'm pretty bummed about. Oddly, I still liked this ep more than #3; I agree with the many others who said 3 felt transitional. This felt more like setting up major stuff for the rest of the season, and despite my personal issues with it, interested me.

But structurally, I can't think of another single episode in 8 years which has been entirely focused around lesbian tropes as *misleads*. On the one hand, I believe this has to be deliberate on Shed's part, & probably, ultimately, will turn out to be so for very praiseworthy reasons: at the moment it appears they're making a point abt separating out orientation from every other 'issue' or struggle or conflict going on in that prison. In other words, quite simply, orientation doesn't have any bearing on people's behavior. Not in terms of whether they're a bad mom (Joy) (or at least a non-mom), or a good sister (Lou), or a caring friend (Pat taking care of Janine). None.

Otoh... we already know that, and this is a show that's been perfectly clear about that in the past. And we didn't "assume" Joy, for ex., was a lesbian because we're a stupid audience: we were being led by the nose. (I think she is, actually: Lou reads her as one & Lou's perceptions have yet to be proved wrong in any instance; & Joy's affair, infatuation, or whateveritwas with the priest in S7 certainly read as lesbian, regardless of whether they were sleeping together.) We were led down this path similarly and especially with Lou, who at least for now appears to be irredeemably straight (which is fine though again I agree w/raffles--her affair with the doctor bores me: she's still a great character... but). So I think it's a legitimate question to ask whether they've crossed a line into jerking us around. Yeah, it makes these 'developments' surprising, but... so what? A clever scriptwriter would or could make them work regardless. Now, Shed's always been big on misleads, so it's possible the particular concentration on lesbian-misleads this week is a combination of a bunch of plot-lines all heating up, and it's entirely possible--I sure hope so--that this is still going somewhere interesting; that it's also about the rest of the season. (Which is, for me, kind of the problem with too much theorizing this early in the season; I don't have the full text in front of me so I can't really know, can I?)

I also agree abt the mocking characterizations around Joy's appearance/age, and am particularly irritated with them. If they're going to continue to play around the edge of making her a caricature, then she can't be a real character: all her storylines will be for naught. Not to mention it's just offensive: she's an unattractive loveless pathetic old closeted dyke? I do hope for & expect better from Shed, so... will just have to wait & see.

As for 'guessing over people's sexuality', I think that's part of what Shed's getting at, and it might well be read as a progression from earlier incarnations of the show, where sexuality was less fluid. Which is not necessarily a Bad Thing, at all.

I'm not so sure that Lou is " irredeemably straight " ekny, because the fact that we now know that she does not have a business interest in any lap dancing establishment, raises the question again of what she was doing watching the woman pole dancer in the first episode! Clearly she wasn't looking to hire her for a job, and if she was simply looking for her sister, she wouldn't have been watching her with quite so much interest surely, to the extent that she was ignoring the guy trying to buy her a drink ?

Yeah, I noticed that! So now we've got Pat and Joy as two characters who are lesbian who have a history of abuse by men. Makes me think the whole sequence of Lou being attacked and then sleeping with Dr. Dunlop is even more intentional than I had previously thought.

That was my take on it. Who needs enemies when you've got friends like Darlene, eh?

WOW!! This is one of those situations where I feel like I watched a different episode! I actually had a hard time keeping my analytic side turned on, because I was so entertained and engaged, wondering what was going to happen next. With Lou in particular, given that we've been waiting 3 1/2 episodes to know what the hell was going on with her. And the character revelations about Joy were similarly interesting, even if they didn't have as much of a build-up.

On this, I will completely and totally agree with you. But whatever anyone says about Pat's costumes this season, I am forever grateful that they are giving us so many shots of her incredibly sexy arms. :)

I didn't read the depiction of Joy this way. She didn't seem lecherous at all in relation to Stella. In fact, I thought they took pains to insure that there was no element of this. I mean, other characters on the show read Stella and Joy's mutual interest as sexual (Lou did, Darlene did etc), but as an audience member, it was clear to me that we were supposed to see how way off they were in their interpretation. The show is certainly interested in Joy's comfort with her own identity (whatever it might be), but not in a negative way, imo. Just in kind of an interested, let's explore the contrast between generations kind of way. I mean, particularly when you compare Joy to the depiction of Grayling, she's seen through a much more generous light than he was in his deeply closeted, corrupted state.

I think that's a really good point about this episode, but I also think that its a more complex development than it might first appear. In a way, this episode was ALL about lesbianity, because of the mislead you speak about below--this revelation about Lou is primarily interesting because she was portrayed as a lesbian (or at least bisexual) and this new information is therefore surprising. If Lou had been portrayed as straight (ie in the vein of Karen or Frances), then the revelation that Lou is searching for her sister and not her lover, wouldn't have carried the dramatic weight they did. So its the lesbian subtext which has made these new character developments noteworthy. In fact, as JAMBF points out, they keep you thinking Vikki is Lou's lover until the very end: lack of interest in Dr. Dunlop, the comment by Sherie about it being hard to imagine the two of them together, and then even Vicki's comment that Lou should have joined in--all of these were intentionally trying to make us think Lou is gay and Vicki was her ex-lover.

Very very true. In fact, there have never been characters on the show who have known their sexuality but the audience hasn't. The only time we've had characters with ambiguous sexualities is when the character herself wasn't sure. With Lou and Joy, they both appear to know what they are, but the audience doesn't know. And the show has been on for long enough that they've built a full history of lesbian characters such that the old maxim "presumed straight until proven gay" doesn't necessarily apply.

Hmm. Interesting conclusion to draw. I'm not sure this is the first place my mind would go to in formulating a conclusion from this new style of portrayal of gays. That doesn't mean I disagree with your conclusion, just that it doesn't seem to me to be the primary point. Its more like a secondary point. I guess I think Shed has always separated orientation from behavior, moral or immoral or otherwise. The only time they didn't would be Grayling, who seemed corrupted by his need to stay closeted (which is not the same thing as him being gay, as we've discussed). When I start thinking about what they are doing with sexuality, I think more about how they have established, and are continuing to maintain lesbianity as a norm, or even THE norm, in the world of Bad Girls. So that we're surprised when characters turn out NOT to be gay. Which then causes us, as audience members, to question our assumptions and expectations.

There was an episode of the sitcom Ellen where the world was reversed and everyone was gay, except a few people who were straight. There was also a musical on this same topic, called Zanna, Don't! (cute title, no?) which took place in a high school where everyone was gay, except these two teenagers who were straight and fell in love, and were terrified of being found out and ostracized. Both examples existed in the world of wish-fulfillment, where in the end an audience member might conclude that the lead character was dreaming or fantasizing this all-gay world into existence. In my mind, BG is taking things a step further--its reality, not wish fulfillment, and lesbian relationships, lesbian attractions, lesbian identity, are par for the course, they are a default assumption (and sometimes THE default assumption). That's really fucking cool in my mind, and far more subtle than Ellen or Zanna, Don't! were.

TOTALLY! That's what makes it worth discussing. If it was wishful thinking on our part, then we'd just be disappointed and that would be that. But instead, they deliberately introduced Lou in a sexual situation (voyeuristic, but sexual) with another woman. And with Joy, even if you ignore all the subtextual clues in the Xmas ep, they still had Lou interact with her as a lesbian on numerous occasions. Explicitly so. I don't think they are jerking us around--I think they have done this on purpose, but we don't really know why yet. And yes, these revelations could work without the misleads about these characters' sexuality, but then the issue of sexuality and sexual identity wouldn't be underlying these two characters. And they've made sexuality an underlying issue here, they've made it a central focus, so the question is, why? If these two characters are straight (which I still doubt), then why spend so much time on the theme of their sexuality, on purposefully misleading us? I don't have an answer at this point, but I do think it reflects the "queer" perspective of the show.

I don't think its just about involving us in a world view where being gay is the default assumption. I think they are going much further with it, but of course we can't see where, since we don't know what happens in the second half of the season. If it turns out that Joy and Lou are both straight, and nothing about their sexuality is further explored, then I am in complete agreement with you in feeling manipulated, and that the characters were handled clumsily.

YES! Exactly! That's why I think there is more to this than we might think. You don't introduce a character with this kind of scene just to have her start sleeping with the doctor with no angst or conflict. There's going to be something more here. I wonder if the key is in her line to Joy about schoolgirl crushes being part of the job. Is that a bit of foreshadowing? Will she be so blase if someone (Pat?) develops a schoolgirl crush on her?

OK, now, can I just take a little credit for noticing the "we're all on the same side" theme this season right from the first episode?! We now know that both Joy and Lou have close relatives who are (or could be) imprisoned at Larkhall. This is HUGE. It's what prevents Lou from distancing herself from the inmates. In that scene with Janine, her reaction when Janine said she didn't understand what it was like to have no one who cared if she got out--that was so meaningful and revealing. And when Donny tells Janine that Lou is on her side (regarding rehab) I fully believed him. I bet you Joy will move in the same direction, to being more sympathetic, to starting to look at every inmate and say to herself "This could be my daughter, how would I want her treated?"

I also thought Lou's intake interview with Stella was very interesting. It might be the first time we see an intake interview where the Gov is not seated behind a desk in a formal, high status way. Instead, they are both seated on the two couches, and interacting in a much less formal, more egalitarian way. In the scene between Lou and Janine, something similar (although slightly less striking) is going on--Janine is wandering around the office, picking things up, poking around. She's not seated in a controlled way, Lou is allowing her to move around freely. And when Lou DOES assert control (forcing Janine into rehab) its out of caring, not a power trip.

OK, what's with the Brits and being so anti-therapy? Janine seemed to think counseling would be the absolute worst horror in the world.

Hi abzug, I agree w/your reading of Joy in relation to Stella & most of your points below re plotting. I don't have much to add other than I'll just Wait and See along with everyone else. ;)

Excellent points.

Agreed, as I went on to point out in the next paragraph...

Which is valid, except/unless, as you go on to say, there's nothing there.

Agreed conditionally (if/when)! ;)

I've read all this with great interest and the revelation of Lou's sister still leaves some loose ends open which I feel Shed has more in store for us. I couldn't work out the connection between Lou and the woman she went with to the massage parlour and giving great chunks of money to the intermediary unless it was to pay for her sister's drugs. I can't see why Lou is following her sister around and, in the first episode, staying in the lap dancing club till the early morning. There is more to this, especially when Joy revealed early on that Lou's career had got to a point when she hadn't got much choice of careers yet Grayling expected her to end up in area management.
What isn't explained yet is how come Lou ended up in the prison service and Joy made a move from the army to the prison service.
Bodybag is unusually perceptive when she was in Joy's office and unusually sympathetic.
The vulnerable side of Joy is shown here and brilliantly acted along with her being less than honest to Stella in her total freakout at her past catching up on her. Incidentally, there was a distinct physical resemblance between Joy and Stella which can't have been lost on her, like her younger self walking through the door.
I had to smile at abzug's post on the Brit attitude to therapy- I suppose in Janine's case, it might be the case of being forced to face aspects of her personality that she didn't want to meet at a time when she is most vulnerable- in Fenner's case it would have been the absolute worst horror.

The episode seemed to be an interesting study of women in prison being bitchy about particular women being lesbian (including Pat) whereas Shed had unveiled enough for the audience to show how wide of the mark they are and that Shed are playing a few tricks with us. There were a couple of stabs at continuity with Tina's reference to Maxi and Bodybag's to Bobby Darrin being finally 'outed' to Bodybag.

I'm with abzug, I really enjoyed this episode. I have a feeling that we're being set up for something big, but hells bells, where the blinking flip did Pat get that hat?

The battle for Janine's soul continues I see, but how Natalie managed to keep a straight face when exchanging barbs with Pat in a hat, i'll never know. Her taunt about Pat (in a hat) not having the guts to finish her off when she had the chance definitely struck a raw nerve and if anything, I can see the antagonism between her and Pat (in a hat) growing until it reaches a point of critical mass. This wing just ain't big enough for the both of 'em.

It was great to see Darlene and Tina back in full on comedy duo mode last night. I don't know why, but every time Darlene laughs it completely creases me. Maybe because we're so used to seeing her giving the attitude. She had some great lines last night, i.e. "she eat from the hairy table".

I could be completely wrong, so please correct me if I am, but I don't think we've actually heard anyone speculate about Joy's sexuality in a derogatory manner before tonight. Yes, she's been called 'The Master', but that's in the same way as Hollamby is referred to as 'Old Bodybag'. Darlene's homophobic comments started to pour forth as soon as she began to suspect that Stella was receiving preferential treatment. Her mind would have been struggling to find a reason for Stella's preoccupation with sucking up to 'The Master', as Tina said “Bloody ‘ell, imagine begging to see the Master? You’d have to drag me there kicking and screaming.”

Really, it's no different to Shell's comment "you must be shagging her" when Nikki was moved up to a cell on G3 on Helen's orders. Generally, Shell always fell back on Nikki's sexuality when she wanted to wind her up, as did Fenner who, if I remember correctly, regularly 'teased' Nikki about her 'crush' on Helen.

But I find this intensely interesting. To me, series 8 seems to be all about perceptions and shades of grey. The writers are trying to mess with our heads and probably succeeding. But abzug has explored this point a lot better than I ever could, so i'm going to leave it.

Janine is turning into an excellent character, especially now she has some juicy storylines to get her teeth into. I loved the meeting in Lou's office, I think the 'informality' of what under any other Governor would have been a carpeting said a lot about Lou's understanding of Janine's predicament. I don't know why, but I loved the way she sat back and didn't interfere as Janine started plucking things off her shelves. But then, as we later found out, she has experience of dealing with someone with a drug problem.

I'm actually quite enjoying the Janine/Donny storyline. For some reason, I get the feeling that it's doomed and therefore, bound to bring about more heartache for Janine.

Loved the fight scene in the lap-dancing club. Bad Girls just isn't Bad Girls without a good scrap. I wonder what the story is between these two. And hey, Vicky seems to be a bit of a babe. Very reminiscent of Maxi Purvis (yes, I admit it, one of my secret crushes) in looks. Excuse me for being fickle, but I hope she stays for a few episodes!

Best moment of the episode has to go to Hollamby and Joy's shared moment of maternal emotion. Absolutely classic.

Miniture Dalek's point about varying degrres of grey and perceptions is a good one. I am going on gut instinct to say that this has always lurked in BG but is coming out bigtime. It is interesting to hear the prisoners quote 'the earned incentive' scheme back at the prison officers which has distant echoes of Nikki's explanation to Monica (i.e. that Stella has just come to the prison and goes straight up on the 3s) and, having no explanation given them, draw their own conclusions. lou isn't much better placed in terms of knowledge after seeing Joy who, in turn has her own agenda.
The only problem I have is in being away from the board for the next 3 days and that this discussion will leap on apace. I'll have a lot of catching up to do.

Loved the ep! I'm really getting into this series, which I didn't really think i would because I had this strange feeling it wasn't going to be that good a series.


Lou and her sister
I also thought that she was searching for an ex-girlfriend at first, but when we saw her I thought maybe she was her sister because she looked a bit young. And I was right with that. Definitely explains Lou's trips to lap dancing clubs and "massage" parlours! Oh, and I agree that the "psychoanalyse" comment was a bit Helen/Thomas. When she said it, I did immediately think of Helen saying it.


Pat saving Janine
I'm really liking Pat this series. I'm glad she's helping Janine. I think Janine's actually starting to see sense as well. I mean, Natalie practically forced those drugs on her didn't she. And Janine also told Pat that it was hard, so I really think that Janine wants to get clean.


Darlene being a grass
I think she plainly fancies Donny and just wants Janine out the way. And speaking of Darlene, am I the only one who hates her dress sense these days? I much prefer the tracksuit-clad Darlene. And her accent's not as strong anymore.


The Master and Stella
Couldn't believe Joy's reactions to Stella saying she's her daughter. I really thought at that point that Joy had no emotions what-so-ever. But then when it was revealed that Stella was a result of rape, you can see some emotion beginning to surface. And I guess that explains why she didn't want to acknowledge that they were mother and daughter.

I thought the woman she met in the bar and the woman who arrived at Larkhall's gates were both strippers/sex-workers who were helping her find her sister. And the money was just fees for that, I guess the assumption being that a drugged up hooker wouldn't help Lou find Vicki just out of the goodness of her heart.

I think this is very true! So far all we know is why Lou was going to that massage parlor. We still don't know about her work history, why her career had gone south, or why she was watching a stripper in her opening scene as if its something she does frequently.

I forgot to mention this in my first post, but I did think this was a beautiful scene, because it showed the tender side of two characters who don't show that very much. And it felt completely natural, not forced, not too revealing. Wonderfully written.

Janine has really be growing on me as well. I loathed her last season, primarily due to her horrible treatment towards Arun, and her sucking up to Natalie. But she does seem to be maturing, to seeing the consequences of her actions, and we've got a little more insight into her hopes and dreams. That line from the last ep about the fact that she'd never get married or have kids was really heartbreaking, and just so simple. I thought the scene with Lou was brilliantly staged to show us how sympathetic Lou is with the cons--more than any other gov she seems to have found the balance between letting them have a little freedom, and then coming down hard when it counts.

I think once Fenner got really bad (in S5) they just couldn't do grey anymore. It wasn't possible. But in the first four seasons I think it was something the show did remarkably well. They're really taking it on this season in an active way though, which I'm enjoying.

Wow, did people really not like the episode? Either that, or the weather over in the UK must be fantastic today and everyone is playing hooky (sorry, "skiving"--wait, can that word be used in this form?) from their computers.

Had another thought about this Lou-Dr. Dunlop thing. So, people have said they feel bored by it. I am sure this is intentional. They know how to make us care about a relationship when they want to, and this one is very anemic. There's no conflict (other than Lou's lukewarm interest and Dr. Dunlop's divorce proceedings). So I wonder if they are setting it up for another reason. Say, something to do with Dr. Dunlop's television activities and his accomodations for the Costa Cons? I could imagine that Lou finding this out would be a transformative and challenging experience for the character. Then it starts playing into the issues of loyalty and trust, as in, who can you count on? Which seems to be a significant theme this season--the Donny-Janine relationship seems to be heading in this direction as well. In the past, certain characters couldn't be trusted because they were evil (Di, Fenner etc), while in this season, certain characters can't be trusted because they have other (not necessarily totally sinister) objectives and goals which they are hiding.

I also realized I am kind of eager for the Pat-Natalie conflict to play out already, because its starting to feel just a little bit stagnant. Like, the pressure is building and building, and I want that pressure released, or for there to be a change of direction or strategy. Even during the Nikki vs Shell period in S1, they weren't in head on conflict all the time. Shell worked various angles (Fenner, Crystal etc), Nikki avoided her when she could, and didn't when she couldn't. So, while I'm not anti-the Pat vs Nat rivalry, I don't want it to carry on for the entire season. Here's hoping it will resolve in the next ep or two.

I quite liked the ep, although I think it was a bit "slow". Only major things that were revealed were;

> Joy and Stella's relationship and the circumstances in which Stella was conceived.
> Why Lou was so interested in massage parlours!

And it was BG's 100th episode, I thought we would have had something amazing happen. I think the Julies should have been included in the 100th ep, being as they've been there since day1.

I was just wondering about abzug's point about "the only time we've had characters with ambiguous sexualities is when the character herself wasn't sure." Is this not possibly what is going on with Joy - that it is not so much that she is in the closet, but that rather that, like Helen, she's not even being honest with herself? We have had no evidence that she has or has ever had a love interest in her life, she was offended by Lou's question about whether she was going home to the "Missus", possibly because she hasn't even admitted to herself, or allowed herself to act on any feelings which she may have towards women. Perhaps this may also be the reason that she threw herself so wholeheartedly into her military career - the discipline of it would have helped her to block out any feelings she may have had in that regard, and also given her another focus.

Lou's comment about schoolgirl crushes being part of the job, also makes me think that there was possibly something very "schoolgirl-crush-like" about Joy's attitude to the vicar in S7 - ekny uses the word "infatuation" - which is what a schoolgirl crush is. There's no evidence that there are any corresponding feelings from the vicar either, but there is something of an eager to please puppy, about Joy's attitude to her.

The revelation about her rape, may also point to reasons for why she might be in denial about any having any sexuality whatsover - some sort of post-traumatic stress that has caused her to block herself to any sexual feelings. Certainly her interest in Stella seems to have absolutely no element of a sexual interest whatsoever - again it is her interest in a military career which draws her to her, it is that that turns her on, and gets her all excited and keen to get Stella in training, rather than any interest in her as an individual. If Darlene or somebody else had come to her with the same request, she would probably have reacted in the same manner.

Regarding Lou and Vikki, I wondered whether or not Sherie even knew that they were in fact sisters. Does Sherie perhaps know something about Lou's orientation which we don't yet know, and has also just assumed that it was an lover that she was looking for? Hence not only the comment by Sherie, about it being hard to imagine the two of them together, but also her follow up remark which was rather curious - something along the lines of "Well if at any time you want to give up on her...", which seems to suggest, if you ever give up on her, then I'm available, rather than, I'll be your little sister!

abzug, you make an interesting point about them all being on the same side, and the possibility of Joy and Lou having relations who are or who could be imprisoned at Larkhall - I would add to that, that we now potentially have Donny, who may end up having a girlfriend imprisoned in Larkhall!

I agree also that the scene with Bodybag and Joy in the office is an interesting one, because Bodybag is unwittingly also highlighting for Joy the fact that she didn't have that kind of interaction or mothering experience with her own child. It is interesting too that Bodybag's comment that just for one moment, when Bobby-Darrin fell off the slide (or whatever it was) she thought he was dead. The same thought probably went through Joy's mind when she saw Stella lying there after her fall. (And that comment from Bodybag, as you say abzug, is an interesting insight into her softer side - that there is more to her than the bigoted old bag that we see.) Joy's comment that if such a trivial matter as, not approving of Bobby-Darrin's choice of friends, was enough to cause a rift between them, then it was perhaps just as well that she (Joy) never went down the route of having kids, was also rather curious. This scene also highlights ekny's point about orientation having no bearing on people's behaviour , in terms of whether they are bad (or non) moms.

ekny, I see the elusive "around the houses" phrase reared its annoying head in this episode again, when Sherie says that she had told Vicki that Lou had been "asking all around the houses" after her!

I don't think Sheree knew that they were sisters. Because her comments did make it sound like she thought they were sexually involved. When Sheree made these comments, I myself thought that Lou was searching for a (ex)girlfriend. Really shocked me when she said "ask my sister!" to Dr Dunlop. But when I saw Vikki I thought she may be her sister because she was quite a bit young.

Hi, I felt this was different: not an expression but a literal description: asking around at massage-parlors & 'houses' where the girls work.

Hi to you too! ;) Why assume the hookers Lou's working with are 'drugged up'? They're working girls, they're going to remind anyone they do a favor for that time is money. She's out the money whether it's for dancing or prostitution, therefore Lou owes her: it's just business, and she's reminding Lou there's a principle here: her time is as valuable as anyone else's. --e

I was using that more as a figure of speech, not literally. Sherie was not helping Lou out of the goodness of her heart. Whether she needed/wanted the money for drugs, or just to compensate her for her opportunity cost (ie the money she could have earned from working when she was looking for Vicki), it sort of doesn't matter. Its more the overall emotional thrust: Lou is working with and paying a woman who is outside the law, in order to find and save her sister. That is an interesting character revelation....

I've been thinking about this for a day or so now, because this possibility really bothers me, in a way that was hard for me to fully comprehend. But I just don't like the idea that Joy is struggling with her sexuality. I think its because she is such a strong character, with such a definitive sense of herself and her beliefs. I wouldn't mind her beliefs (esp. when it comes to prison policy and operations) being destabilized or up-ended a bit, but when it comes to her knowledge of herself, it doesn't seem fair to the strength of the character to make her so unsure. Partly because it would be a rehash of Helen. And partly because I'm so much more interested in the idea of exploring someone who knows the are gay, but has had other priorities in their life (ie success in the army) which has motivated them to lead a deeply closeted life. It would tell us so much about Joy and her generation if this were the case, another way of being gay (vs the very modern out-and-proud, its-about-the-person kind of sexuality we've seen on the show before. I mean, Grayling's closeted status was very corrupting of him. What if Joy's discretion about her sexuality ISN'T corrupting--what if its just how she's decided to live her life? It would be very interesting....

Very interesting point--it would be nice if this were the case, although I am finding myself growing slightly more pessimistic when it comes to Lou's future love life.

hey there, time for us to switch affects a bit, I'm going to be all cheerful today (yehyeh, shockhorror etc).

1) I was wrong the other day & apologize, I see no reason not to trust Shed knows what it's doing.

2) We've had far too much info about Joy for far too many episodes for her sexuality to be anything other than lesbian. I think she hid info abt Stella from herself bec for that sort of woman, who's chosen career over personal happiness, basically, to even begin to admit she'd put herself in a situation where she'd made that kind of mistake would make her feel she had to question her identity--something Joy isn't willing or able to do. I.e. I don't think you need worry abt Joy because she may be straight but because she's such a dyke. ;)

3) Still have to agree to a bit of gloom re Lou, but we're banking on several things that are extratextual: this is an actor who's shown herself willing to do lesbian stuff in the past. Long before many others were. And she's done lesbian scenes more than once, whether she enjoyed or grew tired of the notariety associated with the LA Law 'first lesbian kiss on prime-time' or whatever the qualification (which wasn't strictly speaking true but close enough)--all her other lesbian/bi roles were before that, I think (could be mistaken). Interviews all seem to indicate someone fairly practical about the biz; this is a woman comfortable stripping for the camera whose politics are still feminist/socialist--rather like Sheds'--after living in LA for over a decade, yet. Talk about reconciling contradictions. Who made clear noises about wanting to be on a long-running soap like Emmerdale or whatever, upon her return to the UK. So by all accounts... would seem to be doing exactly what she wants to be doing in this kind of show & in particular, in this kind of role. Which argues for some longevity at least beyond a season (as does the slowness with which they're setting up her plotline).

Which should all be good things, oi? ;)

azbug wrote:

Interesting comments there. I rather suspect, as you allude to, that Joy is quite aware of her own orientation but for personal reasons and career choices is more discreet. I also would imagine that for women of her age cohort, especially in the military, and likely also police force & prison service, being closeted at most, just plain discreet at best could not be out, especially if they were particularly career focused. They probably felt (and rightly so, as both professions are very regimented with a very heteronormative values) that there would be no opportunity for advancement.

Drugs, Natalie, Janine, Bev
Loved the interaction there after Janine told Natalie she was serious about rehab and Bev juts in to say that if the drugs were on the table and Janine wasn't going to have them, Bev wouldn't let them go to waste.

Pat
Again, really liking Pat's protective streak where Janine is concerned. But where the frell did she get that hat? Much better without the hat.

Lou's Management Styles
I really liked, as many have noted, the way she interacted with Stella and Janine. Informally to a point, but willing to put her foot down when necessary. With Janine it was enforcing the drugs rehab, with Stella it was more her interaction with Joy re: decision to put her up on G3 (as if Joy plans to ghost her out it would be easier without a roommate to wind up about) despite the potential (and indeed occurred) outcry from the other inmates.

Hi Ceridwyn2, I totally agree with you about that Natalie-Janine-Bev scene. Bev was fantastic and hilarious, although I worry about her drug dependence, given what happened to her in S5 (I think it was S5, maybe it was S6?).

And your post reminded me of how strange it is this season that everyone is presumed to be sleeping with everyone else, but hardly anyone is (other than Janine and Donny at this point I guess. Pat and Lou, Stella and Joy. Again, just another way that presumption of lesbian identity and behavior as pervasive, as the norm in this world.

I believe it was series 6, because she'd caught the shit from Frances Myers for drugs.

I'm a little confused by Janine's sudden addiction. I realize time passes strangely in Larkhall, but still. I'm also a bit puzzled by their insistence on refering to all drugs as 'gear'--my understanding was the term's primary meaning was heroin (which would make sense, derived I assume from all the gear you need to cook & shoot it), and it's a secondary meaning at best to refer to any drug as 'gear'.

But assuming that's what they're doing, what the heck is she taking she's so instantly addicted to? I can't think of any drug in pill form that would be so habit-forming so quickly except Vicodin, which would be fairly hard to obtain in prison as opposed to crack or whatever. I realize this is a very trivial question but it's been bugging me.

Just to take Abzug's last post a step further on, this is another case where Shed have written the scene where reality is a mile away from people's perception. My thanks to the point of Cherie's assumption as to why Lou is so interested in Vicky and the payoff line if Lou gives up on Vicky. I agree with ekny about the matter of addiction. I read 'gear' to mean heroin and the tablet seem to be mighty addictive bearing in mind the timescale unless this can be accounted for by Shed's wierd sense of time especially within this episode - that it was actually longer than it appeared to the viewer. The Lou Dr Dunlop storyline appears to be going round in circles but might need watching in a similar way to Series 5 when the whole apparentyly tedious Grayling Di Tony storyline eventually provided a twist where Di became instrumental in Karen's downfall.

Yeah, but this isn't the first time they've done this on the show. Roisin became addicted with similar speed, and also to a pill-based drug (before moving on to heroin). I just read this as a "drugs are evil, just say no" kind of message more than anything else. That drug addiction can happen very quickly in prison.

This is another instance where perception is out of line with reality where Janine was caught for trying to smuggle in drugs at her mother's funeral but wasn't taking drugs but at a later date became addicted to drugs.

Very good point, Richard. This isn't just about sexuality, its about everyone's misinterpretations of information in general. Ie poor reading of the clues.

Had another thought about Janine and how long it took her to get addicted. I don't think at this point she is physically addicted to drugs, just emotionally addicted. ALthough she throws up, its not due to withdrawl, its due to Pat shoving a finger down her throat. So its not a Zandra situation we've got here, just a person who doesn't want to give up the one comfort she's found in prison.

Think you've got this one about right, abzug. The problem is that she can't see any way out. The curious thing about Janine is that, up till now, she hadn't any overt awareness of 'the outside' being content with being Natalie's sidekick. It looks as if someone's turned the light on inside her head and it's dazzling her.

On another topic, you get the feeling about Joy that she'd put everything into the army and life with 'rules and regulations' in general which isn't that she doesn't question them, but they're there for a reason and probably at the expense of her sexuality. It freaked her out that Stella was a criminal and she affirmed and denied Stella as her daughter at the same time.I'd agree with her obvious attraction to the padre which comes over as schoolgirlish, disregarding age differences. What was revealed in the last exchange was that Joy had been raped (if I read it right). You got the feeling that Joy had done her utmost to bury the whole memory.

Great way of putting Janine's actions! And I couldn't agree more!

This thread, as usual, makes very interesting reading.

On the lesbian innuendos in the series so far. My reaction to it in this ep is very like ekny's initial reaction: I'm starting to wonder if Shed is pulling our chains. It gives me a bad feeling: ie that they're creating a bit of a lesbian innuendo smoke-screen to divert the lesbian fans from how het this series really is. Of course I also can't tell for sure as I don't know where the series is heading - as others have mentioned.

Overall the innuendos and accusations or labelling of lesbians or lesbian relationships create a sense of rampant sexual desire along with a strong current of suppressed sexuality between women in prison. That desire is also evident in Darlene's competition with Janine for Donny's attention. It seems that in BG whenever 2 women are close and/or one woman supports another the lesbian label gets attached to them. Remember Natalie started saying that Pat was a lesbian when she helped Arun.

What I also think is curious with this ep is that female-female relationships within families are being inflected with lesbian innuendo. It's kind of like the reverse of lesbian couples being asked if they're sisters. OTOH there's also a touch of people's first assumption being that if there is a close relationship between women it is most likely to be a lesbian one. Both these kind of assumptions have their roots in a patriarchal society in which it's assumed that women have difficulty relating to other women, and that women's main interest and emotional attachment is to men. So a close relationship must be perverse, or perhaps for some, familial.

So the ep does raise interesting points about sexuality, but I still am feeling disappointed in the lack of a lesbian relationship. Really BG hasn't had much of a one for a while - the Pat-Sheena thing was kind of OK, but also a bit marginal and rushed. And I do feel the mislead about Lou's relationship with Vicky was really jerking us about. I don't entirely agree that there is no emotion or conflict in the Lou-Rowan relationship. There was a bit of conflict over Angela. And Lou seems to be getting more attached to him as they get to know each other. I don't think it's any different from some of the rushed lesbian relationships we've had in BG.

Themes of family:
It seems to me that families and children have been a major theme of this series so far: beginning with Emira's pregnancy, Janine's parents, Lou's daughter, BB's mention of her son, Lou's sister and it seems Julie's.... was it this ep? I have also seen the next ep (5) so I may be getting ahead of myself here.

I'm afraid I started laughing when it was revealed that Stella was Joy's daughter, but given away at birth. This is SOOO much a well-worn soap storyline... and I feel all the family relationships are taking this series well into soap territory as well. The terrorism story and the lesbian innuendos suggested that maybe there's was going to be some boundaries pushed. Hackneyed soap storylines seem a bit of a backward step.

The main thing that keeps me interested though is the Lou character, and the bits where we see Pat. Lou is a fascinating character and I LOVE Lou's casual shirt and jeans outfit. I also was very aware of how Lou was in her office when watching the ep, and it is described very well by abzug. Interesting that for all her laid back attitude she can be tough and bossy when she wants people to get a grip on their lives: Janine; Vicky.

On Joy's sexuality: when Lou asked Joy if she was going home to the missus in ep 3, I thought Joy's response showed that she was well aware of her sexuality and that she identified as lesbian. She didn't contradict Lou's suggestion that she was lesbian but just said that she doesn't have a partner.

Pat's hat (yes I did a double-take at the sight of it too) is what she wears when she's going to work in the garden I think. After a second viewing I decided she wore it on her way to and from the garden. Maybe it keeps her head warm?????

What is it with stalkers in this series????: Pat seems to be stalking Natalie continually, Joy stalked Lou after she left the restaurant and in this ep Rowan stalked Lou to the club. Or maybe it's about people spying on others: Donny spying on Emira, Lou checking up on Joy's relationship with Stella... well I guess that's kind of soap territory too... and the basis of melodrama: secrets, betrayals, lies etc.

Soooo... basically I had my hopes raised for this series in eps 2 & 3, but now I'm having very mixed feelings about where it's going.

Ohhh...and I meant to say that I noticed that the word "twat" was used more than once during the last couple of eps of BG. I noticed it because in an ep of Rescue Me that I watched a few days back the word "twat" was the focus of complaints from a female firefighter. She complained that calling her a "twat" was one of the most offensive words that could be used for a woman. To me "twat" is just a very ordinary and unoffensive word. So I guess there is some cultural difference here?????

Wow, this is so interesting because I would have taken the exact same evidence but drawn the opposite conclusion. You've suggested that the assumption of lesbianism in a close relationship between two women is a sign of a sort of patriarchal hegemony (am I even using that word right?)--that women don't have any other way of relating to eachother in an important way, because women's only important relationships are with men (so says the patriarchy). But given the invisibility of lesbianism throughout the millenia (from the Bible on, male homosexuality is frequently condemned, while female homosexuality isn't even mentioned), there's something very affirming in the phenomenon of intimacy between women being perceived as sexual--that the default is to assume that women can have sexually and emotionally fulfilling relationships with eachother, without any men involved. Esp. given that in S8, these presumptions of lesbianism are shown with no negative judgment (well, other than from the evil Nat and Andy).

Yeah, sadly I think this is true. Now that I am rewatching S1, it's pretty depressing to see how poorly they are executing ALL romantic relationships in the later seasons, not just the lesbian ones. This from a show which created one of the most compelling romantic relationships I have ever viewed on screen, gay or straight.

Very true, although I felt like there was the potential to do something more with it, to expand the theme and the psychological impact on Stella (which I think was actually explored rather well). But instead, they dropped it, and that IS soap-like.

It's funny because these stalker relationships have so much more passion than the romantic ones. I wonder if there is something thematic to tease out there, but sadly I fear there may not be, like you said about it just being soap conventions.