This episode was in the grabd tradition of BG in reaching bnack to past themes and giving them the appropriate unexpected twist.
First off, Vicky Bush pulls out a tremendous acting performance in her total remorse and self loathing for having done wrong which grabbed the heartstrings. What was a very unique twist was the reenactment of Helen's making Shaz confront the widow of her victim and the sharply contrasting domestic hell that lay behind the respected public figure and in a very unusual way, Tina is given peace of mind. What is remarkable also is Bodybag's real humanity and delicacy with which she managed the whole Tina situation and her identification with the widow, harking back to her experience of Dr No No.
Lastly, Vicky / Tina does a sterling job with the 'I will survive' song that was the Series 1 finale. The whole 'prisoner idol' thing was very light hearted and warming.

Now for the dark side. It was interesting that (so far) the disposal of Natalie's body has finally succeeded unlike the sudden appearance of Maxi's dead body in Series 4. The truly dark side was the legally and morally criminal act of Dr Dunlop in tempting a recently recovered addict in the form of Vicky back onto drugs. In his quiet slimy way, he is as bad as any 'baddie' in BG. He is as unscrupulous a liar as anyone and highly manipulative and has echoes of Fenner in his domestic set up- he doesn't physically batter women around that's all but does it emotionally.

Yes, this may have been my favorite moment of the episode. First, because it surprised me. Second, because it brought back so many of the themes of patriarchal oppression of women which BG explores, but hasn't explored as much this season. Third, because of the sort of ambiguity of it all--how characters try to harm others, when is something murder, who is truly guilty. On one extreme you've got Pat, who bashed Natalie's head in. On the other, this widow who put fatty food in front of her husband, but didn't force it down his throat (as Tina so helpfully points out). Both Nat and the husband were asking for it, and in a sense got what they deserved. It's sort of a matter of patience, in a way, and a concern for one's social role. The widow had patience because she cared about appearances. Pat doesn't care about appearances--she's already a murderer, and doesn't mind being one again, particularly in the cause of justice.

I wonder if there is a theme to explore about consumption. A number of notable deaths on the show have been consumption-related: Shaz's triple murder with the spoiled oysters, Yvonne's murder of Renee Williams, and now this widow's murder of her husband. This seems significant, particularly in a show which has explored drug abuse so consistently--there seems to be some sort of theme of the dangers of (over-)consumption, be it food, drugs, etc.

OK, I have to admit, this was my LEAST favorite part of the episode. Bodybag's sympathy just went too far for me. I didn't find it believable for the character. I guess your interpretation, that she was more sympathetic to the widow, makes a little more sense. I was finding myself really annoyed because I thought she was being sympathetic to Tina, after everything that had happened, because it didn't seem possible for this character, who is so awful and narcicistic, to give a toss about Tina. Very character-transplanty to me.

This was another very powerful moment of the episode, filmed looking up at Pat and the Julies. It felt both dark and triumphant, if that makes any sense. And just when you thought Pat might find it in herself to say something before dumping the body, she came out with that great zinger: "Rest in shit." Pat never disappoints me--she always says it like it is, she's never disingenuous. Love it. As to whether it was successful or not, somehow I think the Xmas episode might prove to be the moment when Nat rears her ugly head again, if at all.

I kind of suspected this character would turn evil, but I was surprised it was this swift. They sort of revealed it in layers, so at various moments you thought he might actually love Lou, and then you'd see he didn't. One script critique is that I didn't think the character would confess all to Vicki in his livingroom as he did. He would have still tried to be dishonest and manipulate her in some way. Or, Fenner would have--I guess Dunlop just isn't quite as conniving as Fenner (although he's damn close!).

The idea that he would give drugs to Vicki was deeply disturbing. I saw echoes of Fenner and Rachel in Dunlop's manipulation of Lou. But it was even more annoying/frustrating in this case, because Lou should not be as naive as Rachel. Here we thought Lou was going to be another Helen, and in fact she's another Karen, totally unable to see through Dunlop just as Karen was unable to see through Fenner. I just hope she manages to figure things out and gets Dunlop fired, because I don't think I can bear a Karen-redux. Karen's final demise was so depressing to me over season 5--she just became SO disempowered and weak.

Well I for one, hope that Pat is finally rid of the albatross round her neck, and that she doesn't rear her ugly head in the Christmas special, as you suggest abzug! Pity that sewer doesn't head straight out to sea! And abzug, do you think you could put on your little Timeline hat again, and work out roughly how much time has passed since Pat dispatched Nat. ( How is it that nobody has noticed her smelling a bit ripe, especially after being in the laundry, which is probably quite hot, with the other dryers going! ) But it seems like they have devoted a lot of episode time, to a relatively short amount of real time, when you compare it with S1 which had the same number of eps.

I wondered how tough a head Tina must have, that she managed to bash it against the wall in such a bloody manner, so many times, and only end up with a cut and a graze and no severe bruising! It was maybe interesting to pose her self-inflicted head bashing - her taking responsibility for her own guilt and her own punishment, against Nat's head bashing - she never accepted responsibility for her guilt, and Pat had to enforce her punishment, with more disastrous effect. Perhaps if Nat had taken responsibility for her actions, and been more remorseful, her fate would have been a better one - although I suspect even a remorseful nonce, is still a nonce in prison morality! But Tina by accepting her responsibility, is given absolution, and is ultimately back where she wants to be, in the fold of the prison, and has the support and regard of her friends.

Your point about consumption is an interesting one abzug, and I suppose we could include in those deaths, that of Maxie Purvis who ate and was force-fed the toilet paper! I wonder if there wasn't a contrast also being made between Nat who had previously been force-fed drugs by Pat, and Tina, who again inflicts an overdose on herself, but is saved from death by having her stomach pumped, because she is worth saving. Nat on the other hand isn't , so she gets no sympathy from anyone after the drug feeding episode, nor is she eventually saved from death. She may not have consumed drugs herself, but she was certainly responsible for other people's consumption.

As regards Bodybag's apparent personality transplant this series, I wonder if it doesn't perhaps have something to do with the point that I think Richard made, a few eps back, about the fact that she basically doesn't have Fenner as an ally anymore, so there is nobody to encourage her miserable attitude to the women. There isn't any other officer around at the moment to reinforce her negativism, so it doesn't come to the fore. There are people like that in the world, who are like little dogs who bark very loudly and will try to bite, if there is a large dog around as support, but very quickly withdraw if the big dog leaves!

Dr Dunlop certainly is proving to be an even bigger bastard than I thought! Just when we thought that there was no real baddie left now that Nat was gone! I have to say, I am also extremely surprised at what a weak character Lou has turned out to be, after her initially feisty start! I can't imagine that the Lou that we saw in the first ep, would have agreed, after such an apparently short time, to actually consider marrying him! Please! That's ridiculous! She came across as cynical, rather than as some silly, romantic teenager - at the moment she's outdoing Janine! You're right about her becoming another Karen - I don't think ekny will be pleased to see another Karen-redux either! ;)

I thought that the use of " I Will Survive" in this episode, was a rather interesting echo back to the final episode of S1. ( I only hope that it isn't a sign of Shed bringing it back full circle to the beginning, to tie it all up! ) Like that rendition, the joyous defiance in the performance of the song, was contrasted with something more serious - in Series 1, with Helen's post-breakup scenes with Sean, and in this episode with Pat and the Julies trying to get Nat's body into the sewer. I was going to say, something less joyous, but strictly speaking there was nothing less joyous about the demise of either Sean or Nat - except perhaps for them!

From a timeline perspective, series 8 has been absolute crap. Seriously. I've had to consciously ignore any timeline references, because they all conflict with eachother in a very twisted kind of way. And you know that if I'm restraining myself from the timeline morass, that it is a very scary and dangerous place. Like, in Janine's storyline, weeks have passed since she got off drugs, but in Pat's storyline, it's only been a few days since she topped Natalie. So, trust me, you DON'T want to go there. :) I just suspended my disbelief and convinced myself that no one has any sense of smell and therefore hadn't noticed the rotting corpse....

This is such wonderful symbolism you've pointed out here! And I think it is very reflective of the moral philosophy of the show, the idea of redemption being possible for those who take responsibility for their lives and actions. In a way, this is why characters like Yvonne had to suffer the fate they did--as much as we loved her, and as much as she was a caring and benevolent top dog, she was also ruthless when necessary, and had no qualms about it. In BG morality, that's very troublesome. In the case of Tina, I like the idea that she gains a type of freedom by taking responsibility--freedom from the guilt which was far more imprisoning to her than actual prison has ever been.

I'd believe this if Sylvia had become kind of neutral, but I thought this scene took it too far. The most tenderness I can believe with Sylvia is moments like what she had with Joy, or what she showed Tina when Tina was stalking her outside. But I agree that were Fenner still around, we wouldn't even get THAT from Sylvia.

I couldn't agree more. The fact that I was comparing Lou to Rachel in my head is very very scary. Rachel is the most annoyingly naive character they've ever had on the show! I almost feel like the first half of this season was written by one writer, and the second half by another, in terms of the new characters in particular. I suppose they gave us all that feistiness with Lou to make her intriguing, but then once they told us all her secrets (alcoholism, drug addicted sister etc) they didn't know what to do with the character, like they didn't understand her psychology any more deeply than that, so they couldn't give her any real conflicts (of the sort even someone like Frances Myers had). Strangely, I think she may be the wing gov with the least connections to any inmate. She's barely related to any of them other than Janine (and Stella I guess). But Frances had quite a relationship going with Natalie (a relationship of the loathing sort), Karen had strong connections with Shell and then Yvonne, and of course Helen goes without saying.

YES! I think that the musical juxtaposition is what made the body dumping sequence seem so triumphant, even if it was morbid and brutal. Without the music, it would have been far too dark, and it also would have lost the surreal edge, which I absolutely loved.

I actually watched this last night at work (had dl'ed it and had it on the laptop to take in with me). So, I'm sure I'll have more thoughts upon a second viewing.

Thus far, I'm liking the exploration of Tina's character, her guilt, self-esteem issues, and such.

I also liked the comparison made earlier with regards to Helen's getting Shaz to meet with the widow of one of her victims in series three, to showcase the positive an outcome it can be. Tina is truly remorseful. Very unlike Natalie's meeting with one of her victims in the seventh series, where Nat has absolutely no remorse. Another comparison to that is when once Pat revealed the contents of the meeting btw Nat and victim, the prisoners were rightfully up in arms and pissed at her. Whereas with Tina, they're fully supportive and give her lots of assurances.

Lou, Vicky, Dunlop
I wish Vicky could have been strong enough not to take the pills, but yet save them and bring them to Lou as evidence that Dunlop's pretty much manipulating and blackmailing her into not telling Lou about his true relationship status with his wife. Lou needs to develop a spine. Get some spunk back in her. Get Masterton back in. She'll sort it. :) But she shouldn't have to.

In agreement with abzug i feel that BG8 has gone down the pan a little so far. there aint any characters which i feel that i can warm to, even the Julies haven't had a lot of action. A long time seems to have passed and not a great deal has happened. Janine totally gets on my tits and doesn't seem to know how to have a sly relationship with an officer (Fenner and Shell were at it undetected for years). And i certainly think that Lou is turning into another Karen being lied to and used by men for want of a better word. I really thought Amanda Donahoe does a great job but i'm not keen on the way her character is going. I thought Karem was great and hated seeing her stitched up by Fenner. We need some real bad girls back in Larkhall like shell, Denny, Buki and Yvonne..

How do you feel about Pat? I've found that no matter what this season, I always enjoy her character and always enjoy watching her on screen. But if I weren't a Pat fan, I would probably be enjoying this season a lot less than I am.

Yeah, it's strange this season. Most seasons, the action is very dense, the major characters have a number of plotlines. One or two short-lived ones (things like Renee Williams murder, or the canteen scam in S4, Nikki's defense of Femi etc), and then one or two long-lived ones (ie romantic relationships, relationships with family, power struggles etc). But this season, the only character who seems to have had this density of plotlines is Janine (who I like, but I can understand you not liking her)--with her family, the drug addiction, and her relationship with Donny. And maybe perhaps Lou (Vicki struggles, work struggles, Dr. Dunlop, her treatment of Stella, Janine etc). Most of the other characters had ONE plotline (Pat taking down Nat, Tina struggling with freedom, Darlene jealous of Janine), and a few had two (Julie S with her son's marriage and her cancer treatment). So it's felt less action-packed, and with certain characters we've gotten to see fewer sides to them than usual.

What I've missed most of all are what I've often called the "hijinks"--things like chateau Larkhall in S1, Babes Behind Bars, the canteen scam, even the privatization protest--the small, relatively harmless actions of resistance which the prisoners engage in.

I can understand how it isn't easy to take Bodybag's softer and more sympathetic style. I have direct experience of working with three women in an office, the worst of who was a scheming cunning version of Bodybag. Their characters fed off each other . Once two had gone, the last was much more dealable with. There is another factor with Bodybag and one was possibly that she felt guilty at what happened to Tina. Both points of view are understandable.

I absolutely agree with the points raised about Lou. The way she has evolved just isn't credible in the way that she has accepted Dr Dunlop's lies so easily. She came over as being pretty cynical, wary and likely to see through phonies. Likewise I agree with the way that the ideas of absolution and taking responsibility that Tina and Pat (and before her Yvonne) have exemplified.

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Yes I loved the babes behind bars storyline and howled at Julie J trying to collect raw materials!!! I do like Pat and think she is very much like Yvonne but doesn't quite have the respect from other prisoners like y did. For Example s8 ep8, nat's body. The Julies would certainly not have been as reluctant to help had it been Yvonne asking 4 help. Just don't think that BG has addressed that many contraversial topics in s8. However I loved Phyl and Bevs Kareoke attempt and think they are a great couple of pissheads!!!! I did warm to Janine a little when her mum died but don't think she is that herd. Also in BG recently loose ends haven't been tied up, we nver really found out what happened to Di, and where did Arun disappear to? Ill carry on watching my old BG dvds.

I've just had a look at the 'spoiler' discussions, I felt pretty safe as we're about done with this season, & several people posted they'd seen indications Lou was supposed to be a lesbian. Does anyone know where those were...?

I wasn't able to find them, but as a side note, whether these spoilers were accurate or not is almost besides the point. I didn't read spoilers, I read the Text (ie series 8 of Bad Girls), and it was pretty clear to me during the first few episodes that Lou was a lesbian. It's clear now that she isn't. And I remember you and I having a discussion in one of the other threads where you indicated you were feeling toyed with, and I said, no no no, they're doing it for a reason, there's going to be a payoff with all the ways they are playing with representations of sexual identity. But, unless it happens in the last two eps, there isn't a payoff, so now I too feel a bit toyed with. And it's not because I believed spoilers, but because I believed the Text.

I agree entirely, you know I'm the textual girl. I wanted to see them to form an impression of how far they'd seemed to be committed to Lou's sexuality, & to try to understand what the hell happened. Unless she breaks up with the new Dr Evil & has an abrupt about-face--dot dot dot. Unlikely. So... what's UP here? Grr. Etc.

I've been thinking about this since I saw the episode, kind of percolating in the back of my mind, because there was something that troubled me about the use of the song. I thought at first it was because it seemed unoriginal, given they had used it in S1. But that didn't seem like a legitimate criticism of a show which often reuses plot devices, character traits, relationships etc to highlight different angles.

But I just realized this morning that there is something VERY disturbing when you think of the contrast between how this song was used in S1 and how it was used in this past week's ep. In S1, the song was entirely about liberation. It was about the women rejoicing over Monica's successful appeal, and it was more subtly about Helen being liberated from a heterosexual life which she didn't want. Of course there is pain in the latter liberation, but we're still rejoicing in it, for both Helen & Nikki's sake. However, in S8 the song is used almost as a celebration of institutionalization. Tina is singing about how she will survive, but the only real celebration there is that she no longer wants to kill herself, that she's freed herself (or, been freed) from guilt. She's still stuck in prison, a repeat offender, thoroughly unable to survive on the outside. This is something to celebrate? Similarly, Pat is finally freeing herself from Natalie's body, but again the fact that she has a corpse to free herself from is an indication of how far gone the character is--she's fully accepted and embraced criminal standards of behavior (ie murder as a solution to interpersonal problems).

We like Pat and Tina, so we are happy for them, but wouldn't we be happier if what we were celebrating was their freedom from a life of criminality, rather than their ability to flourish within that life?

And then my next question is, was this intentional on the part of the writers? Are we supposed to associate this song with it's use in S1, and be troubled by what we are celebrating in S8?

Excellent points. I wish I could agree their use of the song is supposed to make us uncomfortable in this way; I don't think it's intentional beyond a superficial level of utility. They recycle lines, themes, all kinds of stuff in this show, which is fine up to a point. In short I viewed this as a shortcut to wrapping Tina's story without another 2 seasons of Processing, little more.

There's one very important point in this very interesting discussion and that is that Shed will reuse themes, plotlines, etc but will put a twist on it. Certainly the song as sung at the 'Prison Idol' is about
The literal use of the theme of surviving lost loves , if used in a straight context, is about memories of being on the outside of prison and surviving(i.e. locked in the past), rather than on present experience. The alternative is of a general sense of surviving troubles and is inescapably NOT linked to the joy of freedom (through Monica and Helen). What was very noticable was the way the song echoed from the top of the sewer hole as Natalie's body fell down it which, likewise, has to be linked to the point about Pat.

There is only one qualification that I would make aboit Pat and that is comparing the way that Yvonne set about killing Renee Williams. In the fight between Pat and Natalie, both were struggling for possession of the large stone and whoever got control would survive. Both premeditated the killing of the other but the indident happened in 'hot blood.' Yvonne's killing of Renee Williams was as premeditated but wasn't as gory. This might be read as me being defensive about Pat but what is interesting and curious is how cool and controlled Pat is during the whole killing of Natalie and how uncomfortable Pat was in exposing her feelings to Sheena.

The evolution of Lou is something I still don't get.

I can't imagine that the use of I Will Survive wasn't intentional on the part of the writers! It was such a memorable image from the end of Series 1 - and the fact that they began that series with Staying Alive, and closed it with I Will Survive, suggests that the message is, that 8 series down the line, that's what's the women are still doing, it's all they can do, they're trying to survive and stay alive - some, like Natalie, don't succeed.

I was immediately struck by the fact that in that instance it was being sung in celebration of Monica's release, and in this case, in celebration of Tina's return, and I think that must be intentional. But I don't neccessarily see that as something negative, because the sentiment of the song is still one of survival. In S1, the women may be celebrating Monica's release, but they are singing for themselves. As Nikki says to Monica, one person getting out of there, gets out for them all. So they are expressing the fact that there is hope for all of them, they will survive, despite their circumstances. And in repeating it again here, it is reaffirming that defiance and confidence that they will survive, despite what has happened to Tina.

Maybe for us the situation of Tina having become institutionalised isn't ideal, but for her, she is still surviving, and making the situation work for her. She has no family or friends on the outside, so for her, she is where she wants to be - the prison has become her freedom. On the other hand, maybe there is also a hint of hope in her singing the song, that the next time she is released, things might be different for her. She has managed to survive this whole ordeal of feeling that she is responsible for the death of somebody - which must surely have been her lowest point ever - in comparison with that, maybe the rest of her time on the outside, didn't seem like such an ordeal after all.

Thank god. I thought it was just us cranky lesbians who were mystified. I feel very validated now. (Seriously.)

:eek I missed this ep on Thursday and I forgot to record the repeat last night! So I'm going to have to get as much info off the net for this ep. Which includes reading this thread.