Finally a politician who is waking up. Al Gore made a shocking film called "An Inconvenient Truth" about global warming:
http://www.climatecrisis.net/trailer/

Urge your friends and family to see this film. People must wake up and realize that global warming is irreversible and the biggest world-wide disaster that can happen. Global warming is going much faster than they thought it would happen. If we don't do enough against it my country will be flooded as will the coast of America with as a result millions and millions of refugees. Including your children or grandchildren. We must urge our governments to really start doing something about this. I mean why aren't our cars driving on hydrogen yet?

BTW, Al Gore doesn't earn any money with the film. The money is going to good causes.

I will definitely have to get that DVD. I've also ordered this interesting book on the same subject. I hope I'll have it in my mailbox real soon....

At last ! I will buy this DVD and support Al Gore's cause. This man sees the future. George Bush only sees his nose. Global warming will be a total disaster and mankind will be forced to stop destroying the planet !

Not running on hydrogen because:

1. Too costly for the average consumer
2. Not enough stations to fill up at
3. Current method of storage doesn't hold enough to make it worth it, though -- as pointed out in the current issue of Popular Science (or maybe it was the other science magazine) -- there has been a break through in hydrogen storage by some young guy that may make it possible...
4. Oil companies will kill you.
5. People working inside the oil industry will find themselves jobless and having to learn a new trade (hydrogen processing, manufacturing, and so on...)
6. Oil industries and their kickbacks to people in the government.
7. Even if hydrogen cars were the same price, or even a bit cheaper, than regular gas cars, there are a lot of people in American who can't afford to get a new car, or trade in. Used gas cars will still be for sale because of the poorer, OVERLOOKED class of people that can't afford to buy properly owrking car.
8. Where are we going to put these millions+ defunct gas cars? Factories and crews will be needed to disassemble the gas tanks and parts, clean them, and make sure the gas doesn't leak into the ground, and so forth.
9. Just how much will hydrogen cost at the refil station?
10. American fights change in certain cases, sadly.


There's 10 reasons we are SCREWED.

Obviously switching over to hydrogen won't happen tomorrow. It will be a transition process of decades. That's why we have to start now. Although several European countries (like Spain) already have buses running on hydrogen.
http://www.atti-info.org/HydrogenVeh/hydrogenbuses.html

I also heard that BMW made a 7 series that runs on hydrogen. You can make hydrogen from water (by electrolysis of water) and I've read that it would be possible to have your own small converter station at your house that runs for instance on solar power and/or wind. No pollution whatsoever!

And with new technologies the price will always be high in the beginning. When it becomes more commonplace the price will obviously drop.

I'm sure oil and gas companies are blocking research and initiatives for personal vehicles running on hydrogen. So it's the job of our governments to push and promote that technology. But unfortunately my governement consists of some very shortsighted, incapable persons. A bunch of bookkeepers basically who can't think bigger than the cold and standard economics they've learned on school and have no clue about science. And I can't say that our world leaders excel in intelligence, long term thinking and concern for the environment. But that's mainly the fault of the people who choose such shortsighted leaders and who's interest is limited to the growth of their own wealth. But the world is running out of oil, so at some point they will be forced to look for alternatives. And then it's suddenly possible and way too late. If you're smart you can already be a leading country in a future hydrogen economy. It's also a unique opportunity for Europe.

Except from the factories making the solar panels, the converter, the parts for the converter, the machinery to make the stuff, and so forth. ;)


No doubt we'll get to hydrogen eventually, but the problem is we it's looking like we won't make it there until it's too late.

Good subject to bring up. This is to me, my top concern. I'm 60 already, but I have children and a grandchild on the way. Whether you see this film or not, think about the consequences of global warming, what you can do. This is an issue that should be devoid of nationality or politics. It concerns us all on spaceship earth.

Just a couple of caveats however: Gore didn't just wake up, the rest of us did. He has actually been talking about this stuff since the 1960's. It's just that nobody was listening (yeah, I know, he's not a good public speaker).

Reversable/irreversable? Is it already too late? Nobody can really say. It won't hurt if we start trying to do something NOW.

Hydrogen? How about electric? Less resources needed to create it. Less needed to distribute it. You just plug it in. But we all know that in either case, the energy needs to be created somewhere, someway. Obviously, we won't have petroleum to use forever. We need to make some choices here.

Well, as an individual I can certainly have a clear conscience because I am doing whatever I can to reduce the waste of energy (low energy devices, no stand-by, hardly any light in the evening, i always turn things off that i dont need, using public transport, etc).

But on the other hand, this is so frustrating when you see big (oil) companies (who, after all, have the biggest responsebility for these things) completely spitting on the facts in favour of latest stock market results. There should be more important things for companies than how much a barrel of oil costs. As long as these people are still into fossil fuels the world isn't going to change. These people have the power to make alternative energy resources like hydrogen possible but let's face it: They don't have any interest in that because oil prices are guaranteed to increase which is earning them a good fortune. In the end, these fossil fuel lobbyists will always win because they have the largest economical power.

And then, there are the millions and millions of individuals who simply do not care about the problem. People in third world countries have to do that in order to survive (for example burning forests to get wood and farmland), so in a way you can't blame them for that. What's really sad is when you see educated people from our industrial countries acting completely irresponsible. You can see that everywhere and it makes you realize what a long way we still have to go, a way that might be too long for our planet to go.

Yes humans are by nature selfish. A lot of people don't even care about the future of their own children or grandchildren. Today it's only about economic growth and getting as much money as you can to satisfy an materialistic hunger that seems to have no limits. Governments also are obsessed about getting more economic growth. Even a silly growth of 0.1% is of extreme importance. Everything has to yield for the sacred economic growth. We are already shamelessly wealthy. How wealthy must we get? Long term thinking of the consequences and limited resources is absent or people just don't care.

Maybe the only way to stimulate companies, governments and indifferent people is to make clear to them that it will cost them much more money if they act too late. You now see in my country that some companies have awoken and urge our government to finally do something about the environmental problems. This is the world upside down. It's because airports and such see that their companies can no longer exist if our country becomes flooded because of the rising sea level. Sad but true. They act because of money.

What can we do? Well, there is more we can do that you would think. We can change our life styles and make other people aware of the problem and what they can do about it. Spread the word. I also do everything possible to not waste unnecessary energy. I have visited websites to find information about saving energy. I was amazed about what I didn't know. For instance, I didn't know that for most electrical devices with a stand-by mode you pay most of the money in a year on it's stand-by mode instead of it's working mode! A handy thing is those multiple socket "boxes" with an on/off switch that lie on the ground and that can cut off electricity of several devices at once. I also bought special saving light bulbs that use only 1/5th of the energy of normal lamps. I used to have my computer on all day long. Even when I didn't use it for hours. Now, I turn off my computer when I go to do other things. I bought a flat screen monitor that uses only 1/3rd of energy compared CRT monitors. I let my monitor go into stand-by mode after 5 minutes of inactivity (monitors eat energy). I turn off lights when I don't need them. I was clothes at colder temperatures. I put the heater on a lower mode which turns out to be a perfect temperature. I separate garbage into paper, glass, organic and remaining garbage. I use my car less and go walking, with the bike or public transportation more. Etc. etc. A neat advantage that it can save you hundreds of euros a year too.

I do see that more people are changing their lifestyles, which gives me a little bit of hope. But it's also a problem of people now being aware of the seriousness of the problem, because governments are not informing people well enough or not at all and are not giving them the right example of how to treat the environment.

I can't believe you guys are so naive. The facts are there is no proof that man is responsible for any increase in the Earth's tempature. Most scientists in the world do not sucribe to the belief of man caused global warming. From 1940 to 1970 temperatures were actually dropping slightly and governments all around the world were saying that we were entering another Ice Age. It's propaganda to scare the people so a few can make lots of money. There is no evidence that human C02 emissions cause global warming....the fact of the matter is that human Co2 emission only makes up a small fraction of all Co2 emissions. Most Co2 emission happens naturally...from the Ocean, volcanic activity, etc. The Earth has to have Co2 to function. Of all the Carbon Dioxide emissions into the atmosphere, 51 percent is from plants and trees, 45 percent from the oceans, and only three percent from the burning of fossil fuels (man's contribution)!

According to scientists at the National Climactic Data Center, the weather and climate during the past 20 years has not been out of the ordinary. And further more, the study of tree rings and cores drilled in the ice caps, going back more than 100 years, has indicated no significant change in the climate. These studies have also indicated that the last big warm-up of the Earth was about 600 years ago, long before there was human interaction from factories, cars, and the burning of fossil fuels. So yes, the Earth's temperatue fluctuates. You can see that in the rock records, and in the rings of trees. How do you all explain why the Earth has froze over and then warmed on many occassions before man was able to emit harmful gasses. The truth of the matter is that in many places on Earth it is actually getting cooler. "The western Arctic may be getting somewhat warmer, due to unrelated cyclic events in the Pacific Ocean, but the Eastern Arctic and Greenland are getting colder. The small Palmer Peninsula of Antarctica is getting warmer, while the main Antarctic continent is actually cooling. Ice thicknesses are increasing both on Greenland and in Antarctica" (from link I provided below).

I do believe we can all do better at recycling, and preserving nature. I am not saying that man cannot have an affect on Earth. However, movies like "The Inconvinient Truth" are nothing but lies used to make money. Oh, for those of you in Europe, you should check out Al Gore's 3 homes. His main residence in Tennessee is 10,000 square feet. He drive ways, pool, and home are lined with gas powered lights, his very large swimming pool is heated, and he uses electic gates, etc. for more convinience. His home uses almost 10 times the amount of energy the average home in Tennessee uses and that is just one of his homes. Al Gore is not concerned about Global Warming. Al Gore is concerned about Al Gore.

Here is the link I spoke about above: http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=4

Here are quotes from Scientists:
1. "The climate has warmed in the last century, but this took place before 1940. ...we don't think it was human activity. Satellite records form of the temperatures from 3 miles up, do not show any warming at all. Heat Islands caused by urbanization have distorted thermometer temperatures."
(Prof. Fred Singer-Atmospheric Physicist, University of Virginia, November 2000)

2. "The coverage of ice in the Arctic has been virtually unchanged since 1979, while Ice in the Antarctic regions has actually increased." Temperatures over time, aligned themselves very well with the variations in the Solar Cycle, ...using temperatures form the 1880's to 1999."
(WSI-Intellicast Meteorologists using data from NOAA and Goddard Space Flight Center. February 2001)

3. "Climate change is real" is a meaningless phrase used repeatedly by activists to convince the public that a climate catastrophe is looming and humanity is the cause. Neither of these fears is justified. Global climate changes all the time due to natural causes and the human impact still remains impossible to distinguish from this natural "noise." (Letter to Canadian Prime Minister from 60 world leading climate Scientists 2006)

4. "You have these news events where people are taken to Glacier National Park or to Alaska, and they are shown a glacier that has been retreating," says Professor Richard Lindzen of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "The assumption is it's global warming. But then you look at the markers and you see that the retreat began around 1820. That's not due to global warming, at least not from man. In other words, these things happen."

5. "Few people contest the idea that some of the recent climate changes are likely due to natural processes, such as volcanic eruptions, changes in solar luminosity, and variations generated by natural interactions between parts of the climate system (for example, oceans and the atmosphere). There were significant climate changes before humans were around and there will be non-human causes of climate change in the future." (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration 2006)

6. "I have been in operational meteorology since 1978, and I know dozens and dozens of broadcast meteorologists all over the country. Our big job: look at a large volume of raw data and come up with a public weather forecast for the next seven days. I do not know of a single TV meteorologist who buys into the man-made global warming hype. I know there must be a few out there, but I can’t find them. Here are the basic facts you need to know: Billions of dollars of grant money is flowing into the pockets of those on the man-made global warming bandwagon. No man-made global warming, the money dries up. This is big money, make no mistake about it. Nothing wrong with making money at all, but when money becomes the motivation for a scientific conclusion, then we have a problem. For many, global warming is a big cash grab. The climate of this planet has been changing since God put the planet here. It will always change, and the warming in the last 10 years is not much difference than the warming we saw in the 1930s and other decades. And, lets not forget we are at the end of the ice age in which ice covered most of North America and Northern Europe." (ABC-TV Alabama affiliate weatherman James Spann, January, 2007)

I know that none of this will change your minds. Why would you believe what a politician has to say. They want to get elected. They want to make money. They say what the people want to hear and this is the hip new topic. If the majority of scienctists are saying that there is no proof that humans are affecting climate change, and climate change is a natural part of what the Earth goes through every 10,000 years or so...then I am going to believe them over a politician...especially Al Gore.

Why are you generalizing?

I haven't even seen that gore movie but I know what scientists have to say about the matter and you completely forgot to mention that there are indeed scientists who do say that global warming is indeed caused by humans and these gentlemen are clearly in the majority and have some really convincing arguments themselves.

By the way, with a bit of research you will find out that most "experts" or "scientists" who claim that human caused global warming is panic making are in some way involved with industrial interest parties and lobbyists, mainly oil companies, who are funding their research. These people would not benefit from more groundbreaking technologies replacing oil because the whole economy right now is built on that ressource.

I don't want to go into a lengthy conversation here, so I will just ask you one thing:

What do you think is better?

1. Continuing the pollution of the atmosphere and 100 or 200 years later realizing that it was all our fault while the consequences can't be avoided anymore

or

2. investing in new technologies, kissing fossil fuels goodbye and actually making a change before we reach that point even though some of us are still in doubt?

I would go for option 2, for my yet unborn children's and grandchildren's sake.

However, as long as industrial interests are higher priorities on politician's "to do" lists then our children might have to face a really problematic future.

I too do not want to get into a long discussion either. As for your statement about the majority of scientists believing global warming is caused by humans is simply false...that is what the media tells you. You can do the research yourself. Very few scientist prescribe to the notion that humans are causing whatever cllimate change we may or may not be experiencing. I have done the research myself, and have read what scientists are saying. The problem is that most people will not take the time to do that. They will believe their politician or their media source.

The bottom line is that only about 3% of all emission into the atmosphere is caused by humans (cars, factories, etc.). We can do all we want to eliminate the 3% that we contribute. But in the end we have little control of what the Earth is going to do naturally. How are we going to stop the Ocean from emitting almost 50% of all the Co2 that is in our atmosphere. It is part of the natural cylce of Earth. This cycle has been going on since long before we were here and it will continue long after we are gone.

Yes, I want my children and grand-children to have the best environment to live in as they can. I do all I can to help keep the environment clean. I recycle, I drive a fuel efficient car, walk when I can instead of drive, etc.

Oh by the way....according to the panic of the 1940-1970's about the worlds climate getting colder we should have entered an Ice Age around the year 2000. That is what they were saying in the 1960's-1970's. We all know how that turned out.

I love how you and others say that the view I have is only supported by those invested in the oil companies. However, you never give any proof that human emissions are causing climate change. None. I gave data to support my argument. Why is Greenland and Antartica actually getting colder. The ice caps are getting thicker. 97% of all emissions is from nature and not man. I can go on and on, but it will not change anyones mind. Everyone has to look at the data themselves and decide what they want to believe.

In the end if we all are more conscience about what we do with our waste, etc then it will not matter who was right. We will all live in a cleaner world....and the Earth can decide when it is going to warm up and cool down like it has for millions of years.

Well, then believe whatever you want.

I just don't have the time on my hands to give sources and all that stuff. Maybe someone else will do but what's the point of this whole discussion anyways?

I mean, we agree that humans are not treating the planet as they should and we agree that it is best to do what we can to reduce whatever negative effect human action has or may has on the environment (be it the action of an individual or of a big company).

I think that basic agreement will do it for me and I see no real outcome in continuing any further.

WE are naive? Sigh. I hoped this silly discussion was behind us. The increase in temperature is going MUCH too fast if it is because of a natural cause, Jeremy. There has been ups and downs in global temperature in the history of the earth, but they are much and much slower. Do you really think it is because of volcanos or the sun? Do you really think we wouldn't have noticed an increase in volcanic eruptions or an increase in the sun's activity?! Think again. They have been monitoring the sun for decades. And volcanic eruptions don't really go unnoticed. They monitor everything nowadays.

The increase of global temperature coincides EXACTLY with the industrial revolution and thus the human output increase of CO2. Look at these graphs and see how it EXACTLY coincides with each other:







You can see that your little top around 1940 is of a whole different magnitude than the general trend of global warming.

And also don't forget the deforestation humans have been causing this last century (trees convert CO2 to oxygen). It's not only an increase in CO2 output. Human industrialization is the cause. It can only take a "small" increase in CO2 by humans to disturb the delicate balance of the CO2 cycle, Jeremy. And it's irreversible.

If someone claims it is because of cosmic radiation or some other magical cause they don't have an explanation for, I can only laugh. Talking about naive. Think about who don't benefit from these warnings of global warming. There are huge interests and amounts of money involved in the industry. Obviously some scientists are bribed by the industry. But fortunately it is getting more and more difficult for scientists (who are linked to the industry) to claim we humans are not causing this unprecedented increase in global temperature.

The UN issued a report last month that concluded that global warming is 90% sure to be caused by humans.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070202/sc_nm/globalwarming_dc

Read THAT report. I think the UN and the world's top climate scientists who wrote the report have more credit than some questionable individual scientists you quoted. I'm sure you can still find some recalcitrant scientists who claim otherwise Jeremy. Especially in America where the industry has an enormous power and practically runs and funds the government and the country.

I don't know how much certainty you want but if you are looking for a 100% certainty you will never get it. But if you are really not still convinced about human causes, is this something you feel you should even take chances with??

This is the last I will say on the subject. All of you are thinking in terms of your life and existence and not looking at the whole picture. Read this and it will explain it all. This is what I believe and you can't change my mind. I am not disputting that the temps may be rising but not because of man. (http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html).

So in your logic it means because there is phenomenon like ice ages and warmer periods, humans can never change the climate? When we change the climate you can always say "it's nature itself", even when the climate change is much too fast for that and when we have been releasing huge amounts of greenhouse gases and clearing land at an increasing rate for more than a century.

I already said it and climate experts say it too: the temperature increase is going MUCH too fast for a natural cause like ice ages and warmer periods. The global temperature increase also coincides exactly with the industrial revolution. Also the way the temperature is rising is a unique fingerprint for greenhouse gases and rules out other causes. Whether you like it or not, the world's climate experts and the UN now say it's 90% sure that humans cause global warming.

They have already ruled out natural causes like increased solar activity, volcanic activity or earth orbit changes (which is pretty easy). And you're thinking that global warming is because of a retreat from an Ice Age that coincides exactly with the industrial revolution, that is going at un unprecendented rate that is much too fast and you have no explanation or evidence at all about the actual cause of the temperature increase? Sorry you can call me naive but I am not convinced :D

BTW, burning fossil fuels by factories and vehicles also produces a lot of poisenous gases that we breathe in every day and that damage the environment. Another huge problem of fossil fuels (that you can't deny). I wonder why you desperately want to continue and defend this Jeremy, and are not interested in clean alternatives? Very weird. Is it because you just don't care? Or is it because Al Gore made a film about global warming? That would be so sad. You seem to be strikingly negative and personal about Al Gore. To limit this problem to a political preference between republicans and democrats would be very silly.

This is a great documentary I now own on DVD. Extremely educated, biased but not inaccurate, and stunning statistics.

It's hard to do stuff about it, though. As much as they say, "You can make a difference," it's not always that easy. My parents own two giant gas hog vehicles that they aren't willing to give up (yes, believe it or not, a Hummer and a Dodge Durango--the Durango not as much of a hog as the Hummer, but still).

I disagree with those who say that a natural Ice Age is coming. jdoss, also put into consideration that in the previous Ice Ages, temperatures did not rise as high as they have in recent years, nor have they near as quickly as the raise in the last thirty years. It makes me kind of disappointed to live in the USA. (Not that Bush doesn't make it any worse. America's dumbest president.)

A great way to make a real difference is to transfer your saving account from a normal bank to a "green" bank. In my case it has the same effect as not using your car for 1 YEAR !

It seems that normal Dutch banks invest our money in highly polluting and profitable companies that run their factories in Asia or Africa. Those companies can do what they want in corrupt countries and make huge profits. This was found out by an investigation in my country. Besides destroying forrests, one company polluted a river so bad that whole villages of indigenous people became terribly sick. And they can continue everything without problems because the governments of those countries receive large sums of money. The investigation also found out that our money is invested in companies that use child labour (Wal-Mart) and the weapon industry (cluster bombs). The reaction of the banks why they invest billions of euros in such companies was that of indifference. They don't care, their only goal is to make as much money as possible "for their clients" they said. In other countries it will be no different I'm sure. It's also the same with pension funds and I'm sure insurance companies are no different too.

I found a great green bank in my country (Triodos bank) that only invests in "green" projects. I even have a higher interest now on my savings account. This is much better than buying some power saving lamps, I tell you. Your money can be used by a green bank to make some real difference.