2500pt Necrarch Army, Soz for the overkill in comments

Lo all!
I have been collecting vampire counts for quite a while now and i was just curious if it would be a good decision to spend lots of money getting these models...

LORDS
Vampire Count 205
Lvl 2 +35
Nehekhara's Noble Blood +45
Master of the Black Arts +20
Crown Of The Damned +35
(Lore of Death)
(With Zombies)
340

HEROS
Necromancer 65
Lvl 2 +35
Power Familiar +50
(Necromancy)
150

Necromancer 65
Lvl 2 +35
Staff of Damnation +40
(Necromancy)
140

Necromancer 65
Lvl 2 +35
Book of Arkhan +25
Black Periapt +15
140

Total For Characters = 770 (30.8%)

CORE
Skeletons 20x8
Light Armour +20x2
Full Command +15
215

Zombies 24x6
Full Command +15
159

Ghouls 10x8
80

Dire Wolves 6x10
60

Total For Core = 514 (20.56%)

SPECIAL
Grave Guard 20x12
Shields +20x1
Full Command +30
Banner of The Barrows +45
335

Black Nights 10x23
Barding +10X2
Full Command +40
Banner of Doom +50
340

Fell Bats 6x20
120

Spirit Host 2x65
130

Total For Special = 925 (37%)

RARE
Banshee 90
Black Coach 200

Total For Rare = 290 (11.6%)

Total Points Cost 2499
Total Power Dice Generated 12(13)
Total Dispel Dice Generated 8(9)
Total Number of Models 104

I figure that my general will be in a unit of zombies. In the first turn I'll try to summon an unfathomable horde of zombies and skeletons with the necros. Try to attract as much combat as possible to the zombies. The necros will hide in the skellis and pull out before combat. Lore of death for the general to boost his wounds with Soul Steal. I know that my core may seem rather small. But i think against most (if not all) i'll dominate the magic phase and raise many more models do my biding.

I was thinking of exchanging the Banner of Doom for the Screaming Banner.
And extending the zombie unit by getting rid of the Skeletons.

And "NO!", I'm not gona lose the black coach, I have already bought the model and even though many seem to doubt its potential in battle and deem it a 200pt liability, I think if used correctly its can cause great devastation to any opponent and it just looks too damn awesome.

A note about IoN, the part about adding models to existing units, Can this be applied to lone characters. Technically characters are units, that can be part of Zombies/Skeletons?

And about the Hand of Dust Spell:. "Whilst the spell is in play the caster is reduced to a single Attack in close combat. If this attack 'HITS' the enemy is killed automatically, with no armour saves allowed (this works exactly like the Killing Blow attack, with the only difference being that it can affect models of any size)."
by close inspection of the rules, could one not say that its kills the model after scoring a hit with no need to roll to wound? Killing blow needs a 6 when rolling to wound. Sorry i was just confused about that and this is probably not the best place to put this.

Last question, do black nights come in packs of 5 like most other cavalry or in singles only?

Also, I feel that there is a special rule for the Black Coach missing. Something along the lines of "...subtracting 10 wounds from the Black Coach allows one to 'Resurrect' a slumbering (fallen) Vampire Lord" I just have this gut feeling that Alleiso Cavatore left out the Resurrection Special Rule for Vampires. This is inspired by text from bottom of pg 31 of Vampire Counts Army Book. Would this be a fair addition for House Rules, what do you negate or add (negative rule) to balance this 'missing' rule to the Black Coach. is the subtraction of 10 wounds not enough?

Sorry for the long post. All replies are welcome.

The Crown is too risky for a Count. The 3rd Necro has 2 arcane items. Lore of Death is not bad (2-3 place of general lores) but is much inferior to Necromancy which is the best Warhammer lore.

I play (especially if 2250+) MSU but Necrarch armies have many things in common.

The best kit for a Count General is NNB, MBA, Forbidden Lore ( to have at least 3 good spells for him) and Unholly Cynosure (he casts 15+ spells in a battle and this helps a lot).

Full Command is +25. If you mean no champion thats a mistake. We need every member of the command: Champions for chalenges - protecting spellcasters on one hans ans on the other overkill does not kill models (overkill 1 already pays for the Champ); Standard Bearer is self-explanatory, and the Musician is what sometimes chases monsters of board.

Grave Guard is at best with the Screaming Banner.

Hand of Dust kills on a hit - no roll to wound. (Anyway you swap thhis spell every time there is a choice)

At 200 pts a Coach there should be such rule for the Coach - the first 5 battles I used it it was dead before my 2nd turn. Then it was freezed for some time but then I thought 6 days work, my best model, argh... Now my luck with it is much better but it still can't compare the Banshee duo.

Btw. if you are not playing that single Banshee for fluff reasons just drop it - 2 are great, 1 patetic.

Black Knights come in singles, my reccomendation is to take Command Groups - they are at the same price and come with diverse weapons, horns etc.

Have fun with your army.

Well, you may find this the best kit, but please don't present it here as a fact. And I do not agree about the musician, I never ever field one with my VC, it's worthless IMO.

You are right about the crown and the second arcane item though.

I'm afraid you'll either have to ditch the Black Coach, and replace it with a Banshee, or ditch Banshees altogether. as vladdim stated above, Banshees in singles just don't work good enough.

Also, I think a unit of 6 Fell Bats might be a bit overdoing it, it'd be better to scrap 2-3. Spirit Hosts in units of 2 are a bit small IMO, try to get it to at least 3

Sorry, I meant that IMO this is the best kit for the type of Count I use. I never thought to state it like a fact (though it looks so), so I humbly appologize .

When a Skeleton/Zombie unit is fighting monsters it comes very often to the musician to get that +1 CR. Anyway it is very important to win the CC. That is the reason I have Full Command groups in all but the bait units. In other armies they could really be useless if you rely on other method to dispose of Dragons and the like.

Have fun!

Thanks alot for all the help!

By the way, what does MSU stand for.

From previous army posts I always thought that our core blocks don't win combats at all, that they are just there to hold up enimies while flankers and charaters do all the killing. and if my Count was in the Zombie regiment, then enimies could not challenge skeletons, and get overkill if there was no champion, sorry I didnt quite get what you said about the Champion not losing models and overkill 1 paying for Champ

I had originally planned an army with a Count with just Bloodlone powers but I read on so many forums that a count needs to have some type of ward save.

The crown of the damned is big time risky but adds a bit of fluff in the sense that Necrarchs stay in isolation, conducting inhumain experiments and forever walking in and out of the material and spirit realms of chaos communicating with the dead. Sounds like something to cause insanity (stupidity) to me... lol

I thought that the Lore of Death would go really well with necrarchs particularly because of Steal Soul,(used as defence for general - ie target troops with no ward save) Drain Life and Doom and Darkness) -3 to leadership tests Combined with a banshee and a fear and terror causing army sounds too good to pass up. But i do agree though that Necromancy dominates. (except mabey Chaos tzaneeth) i think

Its says that Necrarchs can't choose mundane weapons and armour, but can we choose commen magic items eg Biting Blade and Enchanted shield. (Can wizards carry shileds and still cast spells, I know they can't if they wear armour)

Can my Black Knights and Grave Guard both have the same banner? Or are banners unique?

And can Dire Wolves screen Black Knights? Both are cavalry,but Dogs screening horses hmmm...

And i can't believe that Hand of Dust is Shunned upon by necrachs. What other sollution is there to Chaos Greater Demon Lords. ONE OF THEM HAS 10 FLIPPIN WOUDS! what do you do when see one of those...

I'll ditch 3 fell bats and a zombie to get that third spirit host base, but I still don't see why the Black Coach and 1 Banshee can't work in tandem. Why do Banshees have to be in pairs?

Well thats a mouthfull, thanks alot for the replies. Guess i'll just have to experiment and experiment. Hopefully I'll get off to a winning start once I finished collecting and painting.

This post has been edited by overmind on Jun 19 2005, 10:58 PM

overmind, your list was horrible to read, try some editing in the future please.
MSU = Multiple Small Units.

Your list isn't that bad though, but there are some details you should think of. Like vladdim mentioned, you don't want to suffer from stupidity at Ld 9. Unless you're a really fluffy bunny.

Lore of Death is great fun on a Necrarch, I use it in a very successful list which you can find here in the army list section. But Doom and Darkness! doesn't work with a Banshee unfortunately, since her scream is not a Ld test. It still has its uses though. Since the Banshee's attacks are so random, people like to take two to reduce the risk of her doing nothing for a whole game. Of course, then you'll have a greater handicapp against ITP armies.

Magic banners are unique, all units can screen other units unless they are Small or Large Target. Seems you have to learn a lot of basic rules overmind.

The Coach isn't that good for 200 points, but it's not useless. I have an old Necrach list not unlike your own, record 5 wins and a draw so far:

Necrarch count, lvl 2
Dark Acolyte
The Awakening
Ring of the Night
Master of the Black Arts

Necromancer lvl 2
Staff of Damnation

Necromancer
Book of Arkhan
Dispel Scroll

Wight Lord with heavy armour and shield
Sword of the Kings
The Gem of Blood

20 Skeleton Warriors with light armour and shield, full command
20 Skeleton Warriors with light armour and shield, full command
36 Zombies with command

9 Ghouls

4 Fell Bats
2 Spirit Hosts

1 Banshee
1 Black Coach

Casting Pool: 9
Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 97

Total Army Cost: 1999

Of course I would change a few things today, but its not unplayable.

MSU stands for Multiple Small Units. It is can be efficient with Necrarchs. At 2250 they have 14 units and play very offensively all the time setting traps and offering baits to the opponent. Very unpleasant for shooty or heavy magic armies.

Our core unit blocks of 20+ win combats thanks to the initial +5 Combat Resolution (3 Ranks, Banner, Outnumber), but in general need some support.

A Champion lost in a challenge against enemy character means only one model down. Even if there is overkill generated in the chalange it goes to the CR but you lose only the Champion model from direct wounds and for outnumber every model counts. And you could save a Necro in the same unit having a Champ to fight the challenge.

The Crown is OK for a Lord, but with Ld.9 there is a fair chance that your Count goes stupid at the worst moment possible.

Drain Life has radius, not range so alas MBA has no effect on it (btw. Tzeentch could be devastating but is very unpredictable, Slaanesh is the nastiest Chaos lore).

Necrarchs can choose magic weapons (except Axe of Krell - Great Weapon), no magic armour, sorry.

Magic Banners are unique.

Woolves are great for screening the BK.

Normally you swap Hand of Dust for a better spell but against certain armies you may keep it of course.

Simply 1 Banshee is a bit random. Some battles it takes down 500 pts worth of enemies down, others is just idle. A pair of Banshee is awsome against most armies. That's why the choice goes between Banshees or Black Coach. Having 1 of both is also possible but the effect of the wailing lady is unpredictable.

Sure only after testing the army one finds which units suit at best his playstyle.

Have fun!

The GW position about the Skaven 'Strenght in Numbers' rule - "Skaven can use their rank bonuses for all leadership tests, unless charged in flank or rear..." - is that both Banshee and Cascet of Souls have to be concidered Leadership tests as there is Ld. menetioned in the formulae of their abilities.

IMO that should mean that Banshee can combo with Doom and Darkness - if Rattling Guns have Ld.10 we need some compensation .

Gav's position is actually that Skaven can use SiN for all instances and purposes, except when charged in flank or rear and already engaged in the front, as you mentioned.

The Banshee vail is a special attack, not a Ld test. If it were a Ld test, Lizardmen would be allowed to use their Cold Blood rule. If you want to discuss it further, there's an old thread in the Rules section.

Thanks for the replies guys

Soz bout the editing N.I.B., seen how the other boyz do it and will folow suit from now on.

Sorry N.I.B., or anyone, but what does ITP stand for?

With regard to Doom and Darkness! and Banshee's scream. I suppose "Leadership Test" and "a test on leadership characeristic" are not the same thing, and technically Doom and Darkness! should not be able to affect Banshee's scream, but I suppose all depends on intepretation of rules, strength and awareness of opponent (against a good opponent, you'd want to sneak this glitch in, but strong and aware opponent may not let you! ) . And of course depends on the honour of YOU, the Vampire Counts player. lol

And MBA cant affect RADIUS spells. Well then there seems a lot less reason to take lore of death.

Soz about mudling the line of sight rules N.I.B, 400pg rulebook 200pg Army Book, Countless other texts on the web. Could you give a newbie a break.... lol

Cheers

ITP = Immune To Psychology
Most armies tournaments seem to be ITP nowadays.

After the Cold Blooded rule the Lizardmen Player rolls additional die for leadership based test.

But anyway you should be right as i haven't checked but I now have some vague impression that it was really 'regarding Skaven SiN' in those comments.