The question:
Should Superboy be bisexual?
The arguments (That I know of) thusfar:

Pro:
Many decisions regarding the characters are up to the players. If we went totally by the comics this would be a discussion board.
Cons: (No pun intended)
While original characters can be anything, cannon characters (according to YJUTT rules and common sense) still have to use the comics as a guidline. We can't have a happy Batman and a slow Kid Flash.
Superboy is obviously NOT bisexual in the comics, so it goes against the rules that a character should stick by his comic-self to a fair extent... Right?
Feel free to discuss.

I brilliant idea to slove the problem!!! :D

Most people know my views, I don't have a problem with people changing the character's sexuality, I mean, the comics only depict a section of the characters' lives, they still, (hopefully) have many years left to live and there is always a possibility that the characters' preferences will change on their own.

But I can seriously understand people's concerns, but everyone appears to be taking it out of context, comparing them to a happy batman and slow kid flash etc. The Bats could still reach a happy point in life and there have been moments where Impulse has been slow!!!
Perhaps Kon being Bi is just a lapse of character while he's getting over Cassie? Perhaps it's permanant? Think of the possible logical reasons behind such a character alteration.

Harm in the Young Justice comics was always depicted as evil, if we stick with the reality YJ exists in and not when he is an alternate vesion of Secret, now he's lost his memory and is a GOOD GUY!!! He's even going on dates and cracking jokes!!!

If Kon were beng made serious...actually doing work and stuff...then I would get worried, but having said that what about Bart...he's just read an entire library!!! He has knowledge in his head!!! Who'd have thought it!!!

Change is constant, but I don't want to see Superboy get destroyed either, as I'm sure is the main fear in circulation!!! If this change is to occur it must be done carefully and prefereably tastefully.

As the kind of focal point of all this, a big issue about this involves how the comics have portrayed Superboy, vs. how I'd like to play him. This question has been asked, and here's a fair answer I've found on this topic:

Why do you say that a certain character could be bisexual, when they've clearly been portrayed as totally straight?

A character who has been portrayed as totally straight, like Nightwing, (or in this case, Superboy) could in fact be retconned as bisexual without revising the character's history, except that you might want an explanation why he had never before shown any gay tendencies at all. Such things do happen in real life, although not commonly. Such a retcon is only justified if it doesn't affect the core of the character, and if the resulting stories are worth the change. Many readers would consider the heterosexual relationships of most straight characters to be important enough to make such a retcon not worthwhile, but the fact remains, especially for a fictional character, such a change is theoretically possible. It's just often going to be an academic possibility at best.

This applies to both the comics... AND to RPGs. Like Shin said. Change is the only constant in the universe. I mean, this is ESPECIALLY evident, in how the comics are essentially re-writing Superboy's backhistory ANYWAY. Wiping out Westfield as being the donor of the DNA, and making Kon now genetically connected to *shudders* Lex Luthor, of all people. Can we REALLY be that rigid, to hold onto a standard that is already in flux, as it is? Nothing at ALL wrong with using the comics as a guideline to playing characters... but it shouldn't be used as an inflexible standard. It limits the whole point of having an RPG in the first place. If we wanted to keep things in the creative control of DC... then yes. This would be a discussion board, not a RPG board. But this is not a board to DISCUSS DC characters, is it?

We say that we want DC Canon characters on this site to remain true to who they are in the comics, correct?

Yes.

Does making Superboy bi or gay stand true to the character we read about in the comics?

No. I don't believe it does.

Will allowing such a drastic change to an important character like Superboy, make it difficult for the board to keep DC Canon Character properly portayed on this site?

Yes. It will make that very difficult.

Now I have absolutely no problem what so ever with gay comic characters, mind you. One of my favorite characters in X-Men is Northstar. A gay mutant super-hero. So no one can even attempts to claim that I have a narrow minded view. (Also my best friend Joey is gay, so that also takes away from anyone calling me narrow minded)

When Poe introduced a gay super-hero, I had absolutely no problem with that. First, I had no problems with gay characters and second it was his own creation. The kind of personality he wanted for his character was his choice alone. If the character was gay, that's fine. More power to you and all that stuff.

But did I have a problem with the implication that Superboy was Gay or Bi-sexual. Yes, I did.

When we have people playing Canon characters we want them to be written like they are in the comics. Meaning we expect them to have the history, family, personality and life that they have in the comics. We want them to be the character that we read about in their comics.

Superboy isn't one of our original characters. He's been established by DC Comics, with a certain personality and characterization. He has never been shown as anything other than heterosexual in the comic. To say he's anything but appears to me as a drastic change from the character in the comics. His becoming gay or bi would be a total altercation of the Superboy we are all familar with.

It isn't exactly staying true to who Superboy has always been. It's making him a different character.

It's frankly difficult (not to mention a rather disturbing) to imagine Superboy dating a guy. I personally would not really be able to take the story seriously. It would feel too much like one of those Slash Fan Fiction stories.

He would no longer be seen as the Superboy who was head over heals in love with Wonder Girl or mourns the loss of Tara Moon. He'd be the Superboy who dating Poe.

Also Poe has constantly said that Superboy has always had gay or bi-sexual leanings. I don't know about the rest of you, but I can not recall ever seeing anything that would imply Superboy was anything but straight. And I read Superboy Comics, Young Justice Comics, Superman Comics and Teen Titans Comics. I'd think if DC wanted readers to think Superboy was gay or bi they'd have shown something at one point in at least one of those books.

Any sort of 'evidence' to Superboy being gay or bi in the comics is circumstacial at best, none existant at most. Anything that can be claimed as a sign, could most likely be considered something that was wanted to be seen, rather than anything that was ever actually there.

Also there is the SLASH factor.

Slash fiction is considered the altercation of established Canon characters in which they go from having straight relationships to gay relationship and vise versa. At what point do we draw the line?

What is to keeps the site which is a fan RPG from becoming a Slash RPG?

If a player is allow to completely altercate a DC canon character as they see fit and have no inhibitions of how they write a canon character, where do we draw the line of what is considered the proper portrayal of a character and what is not?

Not much.

So we decided that Superboy is made into a bi-sexual, something he is NOT remotely close to being in the comics?

Then that would allow anyone who takes up Raven to make her into a smart-mouth party-girl who looks likes something off of a 'GIRL'S GONE WILD' video. Or someone who takes up Superman could make him weak, childish and slow-minded. And someone who takes up the Martian Manhunter can make him the wacky happy go-lucky comic relief. All because they decided that was how they wanted to portay them for creative purposes.

We won't exactly be able to say much about proper characterization of DC Canon characters since other canon characters already on have major differences from who they are in the comics.

Basically if another player decides to do something completely and totally out of context with a character, we'd be TOTALLY unable to say anything, without being hypocits. Another player decides that they want to make Superman an S&M-obssessed junkie, well what can we say?

Certainly we can't say anything about Superman being out of character, because the player was being 'creative'...

Do you see my point?

Someone brought up the point that Harm is different from the character in the comic. Yes and no. During the 'WORLD WITHOUT YOUNG JUSTICE' storyline, they showed that Harm could have been good or evil. That left the door open for Harm to become good. Also there is the fact that Marx has played Harm in character. He's still a smart mouth, sadistic and at time evil S.O.B. Sure, he's playing for the good guys here instead of the evil team, but he does still have the personality of the character from the comics.

Superboy dating a guy and flirting with him while more or less ignoring his female teammates and not going to the beach to pick up girls and flex his muscles is completely out of character for him.

If DC Comics were to make Superboy gay or bi-sexual, I wouldn't at all like it. Just like I don't like Tim Drake retiring as Robin or Bart Allen becoming Kid Flash instead of Impulse. But it is their right to make that change if they want to, because the character is their's.

And if DC made Kon bi or gay, well then, I could understand and be more acceptant with Kon being gay or bi on this RPG. Because that is the character he became in the comics. But to do so just because someone decided he to...

I just see it as doing away with the Superboy character from the comic and making it different character.

And this site may be an RPG site, but it is also a site where people can discuss DC characters among other things.

I don't want to inhibit people's creative processes or anything like that, but I do want to stay true to the character's that I am such a big fan of.

Batman is a dark bad-ass. Kid Flash is a hyper-active live-wire with the attention span of a hamster. Wonder Woman is the beautiful, wise and good-heart amazon. And Superboy is a girl-obsessed wolf.

Well, I'm going to keep this short and sweet...mostly cuz I'm typing this during the Raw commercial break. :P

Basically, I'll admit that all three of you have made good points. As I see it, Kon being bi wouldn't take away from the character. As long as he kept the same personality I honestly don't see a problem with it. It's never been in the comics, but it is concievable for him to be bi. Now, if he only went after guys or became feminine, then I'd just go ahead and eat the foot that was already in my mouth. But as I see it, he can still be a girl-obsessed wolf and bi as well.

YES. Thank you, Marx. That is EXACTLY my intention. Kon would obviously keep the same personality he's always had... INCLUDING his flirtatous nature to any female with a pulse. He just would also eventually start to like MY character, as well. I fail to see how him becoming interested in one PARTICULAR guy, substantially changes Kon from the way everyone already knows him. Him being a wolf, is half the angsty fun. Especially when, if Johnny catches him being King of Flirts, he'd be wrestling with the urge to CROWN Kon....!

well...i for one i would be verrrrrrrrry unhappy cuz i love sb he is my fav. dc character i love him more then any others so making him bi would suck in my eyes(gets narrow minded stare's)...

now to defend that i am not narrow minded...i have ton's of gay friends and gay people mean nothing to me but people and i hate all people equally so i never jude yust one cuz all of humanity sucks....and i've dated ton's of bi chicks and i even hang with gay's and bi's and get wasted with them and trust em enuff for em not to rape me (i'm pretty easy on the eyes)..

now the reason i don't like sb being bi ...like allen said it would tottally change the whole characther all the way around when nothings evvvver showed that he was even into any guys but himself..if u make sb bi then nightwing should be bi also when they have been ton's of sign's pointing this...and if u make sb bi what would stop someone from making batman bi....batman can never be bi cuz of the wayy they make him and like allen said we don't own the canon char. we only mess with em...if we have to keep other stuff the same such as hair and costums (which is verrry small compared to making the guy bi) ..and if u use the arguement that they r cahnging his origin with the whole lex thing then i can say as a sb fan who only read yj and tt for sb till i found out impulse was shaway and robin wasn't as lame as jason was...is that it could yust be a storyline no one really knows if it's true i mean they haven't shown anything but sb being all like "ohhh glob lex" and who's to say tim got the test correct it could have yust been a big mistake and it's probly yust some type of mind game being played....so no one can say the changed him like a 180 type tranformation till it's out in the open in the dc universe...

i don't want to be like hey i love sb so don't make him bi(although i'm thinking that)
but what would most of ya think if batman turned out bi that wouldn't suit him at all and in the end i sort of think it is up to the writer not some dude who is playing the char. cuz then we would become a slash board like allen had said.......this subject has yust seem to become really touchy like religion..lol...so yea u guys decided but i don't think it seem's like u r portraying the char. in the rite light...make ur own bi char. i could care less maybe i'll make one too but making an established char. gay or bi is yust sort of wrong... :unsure:

Okay, I've been pondering about that for a few days now and a recent incident involving one of my favorite character's sexual orientation just served for me to completely made up my mind.

I'm quitting the RPG. Not just because of that, like a said I have a number of factors of my life in the real world, girlfriend, friends, I'm taking back my position and the striker of the Arthur Portella Sports Soccer team (That's right biotch, I can play soccer once more).

But the Superboy incident did played a certain role in my decision, is not that I'm homophobic. But Superboy was NEVER portrayed as being gay or Bi, we had never have any indications that he might be attracted to men. And I feel that we're not being truthful to the characters. Or our site, like I one of the rules says:
"Characterizations r a must.".

I'm just not going to be a part of that. Like Alan pointed himself the Beast incident when Marvel turned 'im gay and the fans, both gay & straight, didn't liked that because they felt that it wasn't how the character was supposed to be.
Everyone knows about the recent, "Catwoman" movie where they didn't just changed Catwoman's race, they changed their whole origin. I for one won't be watching this movie. Why because I don't feel that's right. You can't fool around with iconic symbols.

I also would like to point one of Superman's recent possible scripts written by JJ Abrahams, who knows nuthin' about Kal's origin or has any respect for the character. In the story Krypton didn't exploded and LEX LUTHOR, a FBI AGENT, was also KRYPTONIAN. The fans of course didn't like this concept AT ALL and they made a mess. The producers turned down the script after that.
Should even I mentioned the "Batman & Robin" nonsense? Comics played a important part in my life and they're definitely one of the reasons I decided to became a filmmaker. And it irks when my fav heroes are OOC.

And another reason for my departure is that well, I got to work. I spend way too much time on the computer already working on my screenplays. I need some time on the outside world.

That’s about it. I like to say that I’ve always liked YJUTT, it was the only RPG board I stayed this long and I’ll cherish forever all the time and fun we had together. I hope you all had really greats lives and accomplish everything you hope for in a near future.

C U PPL.

I dont like the idea either. What's next? Batman will give up the costume, move to Arkansas, marry Tim and became the proud owner of a grocery store??? Superman will go nuts and starts to kill people? That could mean good stories but it doesn't mean that we should do the dang thing. Wonder Woman will became a hooker?

Sorry Poe, but I completely disagree. I agree with Fab (man, thats got be a first!! :blink:). That's just dumb. It's my point of view though.

Fab, I would hate to see you go, over this... but I wish you well. (My apologies for the earlier Anya moment that took place here... was my unfortunate reaction from tiredness and... well, SHOCK really, that Fab had decided to leave. Sorry, all.)

Poe... >shakes head<

That was really inapropiate. <_< (Don't make me be Giles here...)

And Fab... Wow. I can't believe it. :blink:

I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say you will greatly be missed. Your departure was a definent shock of many of us. You've been an important part of this site for a long time and you're absence will be regretful. :(

If you ever change your mind and want to come back RPGing, you'll always be welcomed. :)



(And yes. Fab's vote does count because he is still a member of the site and he made it BEFORE he quit RPGing. <_< )

Thanks bro. C U All around---------------------------- ;)

Wait!!
WHAT!!!!!!!! :o
Fab, don't quit.....just take an extended leave of absence!!!
WE NEED YOU MORE THAN REALITY DOES!!!!!

[Sigh] I guess i have to accept your desision though, not like i could fly over to Brazil and tie you to the computer is it. <_<

"Don't be a stranger"

YOu know I feel the same way as Alan, bro. Good luck, we'll always have a place for ya here.
*Hides the "Room For Rent" sign behind back*
But seriously, we'll miss you.
Hope you get to come back soon, good luck on your football and straight comics and everything.
Cya bro.

And to Poe... I urge you to remember that we banned Chris for insulting other members before you start.

So, did anybody voted yet?

Damnit, I'm gone for a little and someone leaves!!

C'ya Fabs, good luck with 'life' and stuff.

And the SB/Bi thing: If he ain't broke don't fix him.

HEY! Jake, I'm wounded! I am not now, nor am I ABOUT to, insult anybody. Swear.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

Best of luck man!!! :D Please come back on occasion!!!

Cya around...and I didn't really mind you calling me Kay!!! :lol:

Yeah, sorry this added to one of the reasons you decided to leave man. But while some of us may disagree about the sb/bi thing, we all agree that we'll miss ya. *swings my sledgehammer at half mast* Talk to ya later. :ph43r: *smacks ninja* SALUTE! YOU FOOL!

Okay, after a nice little chat with Poe I decided to add a few thoughts. I still think that this is the worst idea since greedo shooting first.

Superboy, unlike Harm, is an established character with a HUGE fan base. Harm otherwise was a villain on the Young Justice that showed up only two or three times, I'm not saying that he's not a cool character, Mark. I like Harm. But to compare Superboy and Harm is risible at best.

Like Fab said you can’t mess with Iconic symbols. Don’t you remember how everyone bitched when they gave Superman those stupid electrical powers? Or when Jean Paul Valley replaced Bruce? The reason: We don’t wanna see our favorite characters so altered.

Poe said that changing one’s sexual preference do not alter the way this person acts or who the person is. I’m sorry but thats bull. Simply, truly, deeply. Totally BS. I am heterosexual and I overnight turn gay (which, let’s be honestly, is just a dumb concept because no one turns gay overnight) It will change my personality and will change who I am.

I am Fabrício Cruz, Brazilian, 16 years, Vasco da Gama fan, heterosexual. If I’m to turn gay that WILL be a major change (for better or worse) on who I am. But I will not remain the same Fabrício I was the night before.

If you change Superboy’s sexual preference you will, yes, be changing his personality, you will be altering an established loved character and like when they did with Superman and Batman. I will not like this concept.

Further more, Poe is so obsessed with this idea of turning Poe gay that he just won’t compromise in any way. Why not use Match or Black Zero, or hell Hypertime gives you plenty of oportunities. You a Kon-El from a different Earth. But nooo, he WANTS to turn this Kon. OUR Kon. And I just won’t agree with this. I’m sorry.

This isn’t some kind of nazi, bush-like, hidden agenda. I’m all for gay marriage and I hate when any of my friends make any kind of diminishing comments about homosexuals. But I think is dreadful when you screw with the characters we know and love.

I DIDN'T want to have to do this... but I've been left with really no choice in the matter now. *grumbles* Why is it every board I become a member of, I have to put on my teacher's cap?

CM3 doesn't believe that sexuality does NOT equate to personality. Well, I'm about to explore that, just a bit here. And we'll SEE who's right or not.

Let's start with the dictionary, hmm?

sexuality:

Noun
1. The condition of being characterized and distinguished by sex. 2. Concern with or interest in sexual activity. 3. Sexual character or potency.


personality:

Noun
Inflected forms: pl.per·son·al·i·ties 1. The quality or condition of being a person. 2. The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behavior, that are peculiar to a specific person. 3. The pattern of collective character, behavioral, temperamental, emotional, and mental traits of a person: Though their personalities differed, they got along as friends. 4. Distinctive qualities of a person, especially those distinguishing personal characteristics that make one socially appealing: won the election more on personality than on capability. See Synonyms at disposition. 5. a. A person as the embodiment of distinctive traits of mind and behavior. b. A person of prominence or notoriety: television personalities. 6. An offensively personal remark. Often used in the plural: Let's not engage in personalities. 7. The distinctive characteristics of a place or situation: furnishings that give a room personality.

Okay. So basically, from an angle of sexuality... everything is being judged, on ONE ASPECT of a person. Who they have sex with, or prefer to have sex with. Interesting. Now, look again at that definitions for PERSONALITY. Seems to define people, by the qualities (PLURAL!!!) that make up who they are.

Nowhere, is there a comparison being made here that sexuality defines the personality. In other words, it oughta be the other way around, if you WANT to have a connection between the two words. Seems to me though, that the only thing the two words have in common, is the ity part of the words.

Now... y'all can ponder what I've just said, factor in what everybody ELSE has said and voted... and come to your OWN conclusions. I for one, firmly believe that whether Kon has a relationship with my gay character or not... he's still Kon, regardless. Same as always. And if you don't think I can play him the way everyone knows him to be... then I shouldn't be playing him at all. But why don't you all go back, and LOOK at how I've portrayed him thus far. And see for yourselves. THEN decide, how you want to look at Kon and this particular issue.

Grr. Didn't sign in, before posting. Drat. But I think you get my point.

Dude, again, risible. I do know that sexuality and personality r not the same but to honestly believe that if you turn that won't affect the way you behave and you will be EXACT same person you were before... I'm sorry that's just wrong.

You know what I didn't wanted to do this, but I'm truly sick of all of this discussion. Go on have ur way I'm out of here too. I simply won't be a part one this nonsense.

Five for it.
Seven against it.
The rest undecided.
I plan on closing the pole fairly soon so tell everyone to vote.

There. Left messages. Short of PMing every listed member who HASN'T said their peice on this... (which I'm tempted to DO, honestly...) Jake, don't close the poll for at least another 2 days. Give people who haven't been online a lot (like Falcon for example) a chance to weigh in too.

I'll probably leave it up till the end of this week or so, but then I plan on closing it and letting the results stand. It's pretty close right now.

Poe, you wrote those definitions yourself. I hope you realize that you've more or less proven my point for me.

To paraphrase personality is an acumulation traits and behavior. A persoan's sexualtiy directly effect the behavior of a person.

Would not Superboy's sudden change to bi-sexuality alter his personality? Yes it would.

He would suddenly have different traits that were not a part of who he was from before. One of Superboy's personality traits, is that he is head over heals in love with the opposite sex.

But being acttracted to men, thinking about men in a romantic sense. Those are traits to his personality that aren't apart of the actual character.

Would his behavior be different? He's dating and flirting with a guy. That isn't normal behavior for Superboy.



By the way... did CM3 justquit the RPG too? :blink:

I did NOT write those definitions myself. I got them DIRECTLY from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

If you don't believe me, get on your AIM, and IM an AIM Bot called "SmarterChild". Ask for definitions of those words. That is what you get.

By the way... did CM3 justquit the RPG too? :blink:



That's what it sounded like. It might be just me, but personally I don't think this issue is big enough to quit the whole RPG over.

I didn't say you created the definitions Poe, I said you wrote them down on this site. Meaning you had to have read them before you wrote them down. Chill out...

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't like the effect this topic is having on the site. I mean, we've just lost two members because of it... :(

It would apear that he did.
Dammit are my bros just programmed with irrational thinking or what?
Alan: Try not to accuse people so bluntly. I don't know if he wrote those himself or not, but check them and see before you accuse him of making them up, ok? If you find that he did that's one thing, but I doubt that you've memorized the definitions, so...You know. Let's keep this atleast civilized.

Who accused him of anyting, Jake? I am being civil here.

All I said was that Poe wrote down the definition on this site himself, meaning he read the definitions before he conveyed the information here. I never said he created and then wrote the definition himself or anything like that.

I did not insult nor accuse him of anything. I only said that the defintion that he posted on this site only helped justify my arguement.

OK.. First of all, I know I'm new, but I want to add my two cents about this arguement. I've read most of what has been said (I will admit I did NOT read all of a couple posts due to the fact that they were rather long). I've gotten a basic idea of what the arguement is.
If this was an Alternate Reality, I would have absolutely NO problems with Superboy being bi or gay, but since we are going with current DC Cannon, the fact of the matter is, Superboy is NOT bi. Superboy will never be bi or gay. Not in the normal DC Cannon at aleast. Maybe one eon in an Elseworlds.
As for the fact of change, yes change happens in DC, it happens constantly and I'm all for it. I like Impulse becoming Kid Flash, I like characters who die and stay dead (like Ollie should have), I like Black Canary re-gaining her old costume. I like Huntress's new costume. So yeah I like change, the problem is that DC hasn't authorized a change in Superboy's character and it IS completely out of character for him. We've seen constantly how Superboy reacts when he is interested in someone, he has NEVER acted that way around any male character. Yes DC can recont Superboy and change his history, the fact is though some people think this revelation of Lex Luthor being part of Kon-El is a new change in the history of Superboy, it's not exactly. We've been TOLD in the past that Kon-El is part Superman and part human DNA (forgive me if I don't know who it is, I haven't followed Superboy very closely), but now it's been revealed that the DNA was not the person we thought it was and knowning Lex Luthor it is COMPLETELY believable.

"Poe, you wrote those definitions yourself. I hope you realize that you've more or less proven my point for me."

It may not have been an accusation, but it comes across as one.
You are, however, correct. If you just meant that he had copied them than there was nothing wrong, it just sounds more like you're accusing him of making them up.

That's the problem with conveying things in writing rather than in person. It's so easy for people to take offense to anything that wasn't meant in that manner.

I was in no point EVER accusing Poe of making up the definition. If he took it that way, then I'm sorry that he did so.

Ok, Robin. I apologize too, it was just a matter of misunderstanding.

I think what Zatanna said makes perfect sense and is probably the best argument so far. (I'm not claiming that other people haven't said basically the same thing, I'm saying the argument its self is good.)
I have no problem with change and very little with a character BEING gay or bi, it's just that a straight character BECOMING gay or bi with little or no reason seems like it shouldn't happen.
Of course the other thing we have to look at is that if Poe can GIVE and explanation and draws it out over time it seems like there's still a possibility, but it's just so against Kon's character that it seems like it's not wise.
Personally, though, as Admin I have the duty to let the members decide regardless of my personal beliefs, as I've said before. I mainly wanted to compliment Zatanna's post because, as I said, that's a PERFECT example of the argument.

That's just IT, Jake. I CAN give a reason and explaination. One that would take time, that wouldn't happen overnight. And ABOVE ALL... it would be one that wouldn't throw people off the character, or how I portray him. I just need the chance to go for it, y'know?

Stupid latin heritage, sorry. Somethings I, like Jake said, appear to programmed to irrational thoughs. Still don't like the idea though. Will never like the idea. Will always fight against the idea. But I'm here.

Unlike my brother I don't have too many things in my life. I need a woman. BTW, Jake if u want to talk with Fab he is still here, But he will be out soon.

You may want to give them a short outline of it or something tho, 'cause without that who would know to give you time? I mean, you all know where I stand more or less, but a sample atleast could be nice so that they know.
I mean I think everyone knows you don't plan on just changing over night, but we don't know what time frame you ARE thinking about.

Frankly, I'm fed up, and ticked off. I didn't START this poll... people are LEAVING over this... and I think it absolutely sucks. I'm not sure if I DO agree that the votes cast by members who subsequently leave, should count... but that's an Admin decision. And I'm not an Admin. I joined this group to BE able to be creative, and to HAVE FUN, here. I'm certainly not having fun, watching THIS go down.

I'm sorry, you guys... but I won't deny feeling TEMPTED to leave, myself.