DC:5
Marvel:1

There was some discussion about this match before so I thought I'd put it up. As I said before it'd kinda be a waste of two weeks to put up Robin vs Jubilee, was tempted to do that for Storm vs. Wonder Woman but I've still heard some arguements about that one.

This was a tough one in my opinion. Robin and Shadowcat are literally the wiz-kids of their organizations (Gotham Knights & the X-Men).

In Batman, Tim Drake is a prodiegy with skills that none of his predacessors had at his age. He's a brillant detective, a computer genius ranking a few spots below Oracle, his fighting skills are above and beyond (thanks to his training with Batman, Lady Shiva, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle and a half a dozen different martial art masters), and he's a tactical genius.

But then there is Shadowcat. She also is a prodiegy and computer genius, like Robin. Her fighting skills are also above and beyond (thanks to Wolverine's crash course of Samuria and Ninja school). But unlike Robin, Kitty isn't a detective nor is she a skilled tactician. She's smart, but she doesn't thinking in a militaristic fashion all the time. She's always left that to Cyclops, Storm, Captian Britain or Nightcrawler.

Kitty's bonus feature though is her ability to phase through solid matter. But as X-Fan has seen, her intangibily can easily be defeated.

If this were a battle of the computer hackers, I would say it would be a draw. Considering the sort of technology they have access to and considering their intellect they are evenly matched.

Fighting wise, its complicated. Kitty is currently 20 or 21 years old while Tim is only 16. Tim's started his martial arts training when he was 9 years old (YMCA classes and such. Not hard core, I agree, but it gave him an early start) and then he went into his offical Bat-sanctioned training at the age of 13 nearly 14.

Meanwhile Kitty started hers offically full-out martial arts training when she was 14 or 15. She joined the X-Men at 13, but she didn't start her training until later one. And while Kitty is older than Tim, they roughly have the same number of years of fight training.

Kitty has only had one real martial arts teacher and that was Wolverine.

Robin on the other hand has been trained by a large number of fighters amongst them Lady Shiva (Formerly the World's Greatest Fighter) and Batgirl (Current World's Greatest Fighter). So considering their years of training and what they have learned, I would actually have to consider them equals to an extent.

Now in a fight, Kitty would automatically go intangible in order to get close to Robin and take him out. The instant she went underground or something, Robin would take her power into account.

Kitty is a mutant, but she still is human and thus she need to breath and think and so on. All Tim would need to do is hit her with a gas (knock out or regergitant) or use a sonic sound disk (AKA Canary Cry) when she re-appeared to disorient her or knock her out. The electric tazer in his costume would also hurt Kitty if she were to try and grab him from behind. Electricity does hurt Kitty when she goes solid.

She needs to concentrate in order to use her powers. If she can't concentrate she runs the risk of becoming solid while in the ground or wall. As deaths go, that's not the funniest.

Frankly either one could win. It would be the luck of the draw. But I vote for Robin, because his fast thinking tactical mind would give him an edge and he's my favorite character.



But if Kitty won, I won't have too big of a problem with it. Like I said, I see her as Tim's equal.

I voted for Robin. I find Tymm Drake to be a whole lot cooler than Shadowcat. Since I first heard of her in the old Excalabur series and I found her a bit annoying. Her and that dragon.....

Hey don't badmouth the Dragon.

Lockheed rules!

:huh: That's it name? That shall only fuel the dislike I have for the tiny purple animal sidekick. :o

You're hopeless. ;) lol.

Lockheed was named after the type of jet that the X-Men flew. The SR-71 Lockheed Blackbird jet.

And that Dragon has save the X-Men more times than can be counted.

I'll stick with my blind and totally unjustified hatred :pissed: Thank you

Such a pity... Oh well, its your loss. :o

I voted for Shadowcat mostly because they're even but from my understanding, Kitty's willing to kill which I always believe gives you a slight edge when you're fighting someone you're even with. And yeah I know that wasn't true with Batgirl and Shiva's fight, but that's possibly because BG went psychological with it.

She's gonna be my character in the crossover.

You think thats a bad reason?! Just be glad i didn't say i thought she looked cuter. Thought it would raise all kinds of questions.

Althought I have a problem with the Batpeople I think Robin will win this one.

Actually Kitty isn't as willing to kill as you would think. Its an act she developed from working with Wolverine. I think she once said "Its because I hung out with Wolverine that I learned never to take a life."

And being willing to kill doesn't give one an edge. Think about it: how many times has that Bat-crew gone up against people willing to kill while they don't? And how many times have they suffered for that? They always find a better way than killing. That's their edge.

And remember what Robin told Deathstroke. He'll be vicious when he needs to be.

I voted for Shadowcat because Lani did.

What? That's a good reason!!!

In all seriousness, based on what I have read in the past (and Alan's very informative post), I would consider Kitty and Tim to be about equal in the martial arts department, and would agree that Tim has the edge when it comes to tactics.

But Phasing is, in my opinion, one of the most impressive and useful superpowers you can have.

Now, I don't know about what experiences you all have had, given that you read about phasers (no Star Trek jokes, please) like Secret and Shadowcat. As a Legion fan, I read about phasers like Apparition and President Wazzo and the residents of Bgztl. And while some of the less skilled phasers may be caught by some of the tricks that Alan described, one who is experienced at using her ability in combat (like Tinya and Kitty) would not likely be taken down so easily. That combined with the fact that I have never seen Apparition be affected by gasses or sonic energy when she was in phantom form. Or by anything else, for that matter. I've seen her survive hard vacuum without the benefit of a transsuit while in phantom form. The ONLY things that I have ever seen affect Apparition when she has been in phantom form are as follows:

1. Telepathy
2. Magic (and only powerful magic at that- Mordru or Emerald Eye class)
3. Teleportation
4. Illusion Powers (this is kind of a sub-division of Telepathy since they were mental in nature)
5. Kwai Pathfinding Ability

I really don't see Tim coming at Kitty with Telepathy or Telepathic-Originated Illusions. Magic... maybe if he has a talk with Dr. Fate or Zatanna beforehand, but that seems unlikely. Teleportation... I don't exactly see him carrying a JLA Teleport Tube in his pocket, but I guess with some forewarning he could come up with something. And as for #5- last I checked, Robin didn't even know what a Kwai was. No one in the 21st century did.

Well, OK, I take that back- as of the last issue of Titans, they all met one first hand. But you know what I mean, right? He doesn't have a Pathfinder from the Second Galaxy on his utility belt.

So, while I see it as a tough fight and Tim definitely has a good chance, if Shadowcat keeps her wits and phases like there's no tommorow, the win would be hers. So that's why I voted for Kitty.

And because Lani did. :-D

Obviously Apparition and President Wazzo and the residents of Bgztl phasing ability is VERY VERY VERY differently worked than Kitty's.

So it would seem. yet, my vote stands.

I didn't say it shouldn't Jim.

Like I said, considering that Shadowcat and Robin are equals in almost every sense (excpet age, and the fact that Robin is natural ninja stealth and Kitty is mutant phasing stealth) either one could win.

Its all the luck of the draw and if one were to lose to the other I would say, they fought well. Neither is a clear cut winner. Thats what makes this fight so interesting.

Since most of the heroes involved, excluding Wolvy and Lobo of course wouldn't fight each other they're hardest just for the hell of it, I'm assuming that it's for the same stakes as the previous DC vs. Marvel and one universe would be destroyed after all is said and done(In which poor Marvel would be screwed, but I digress). So if there was ever a time to consider killing this fight would be it. And that's not really fair, Batman can beat just about anyone, trying to kill or not. There aren't too many people he's actually even with. If he's physically even with them he outsmarts them.

I'm thinking the whole killing thing would only really come into play if the two were even as Robin and Kitty are. I mean, she can just throw a rock in his head.

But they don't kill Marx. Neither Robin nor Kitty would allow the fight to go that far, because it would be morally and emotionally wrong for them. It would go against both their characters.

Killing would be obvious, but it would never happen. The furthest it would go would be one knocking the other out.

You all seem to forget Kitty's stint in a little organization called I don't know S.H.I.E.L.D. So she was trained by more than just wolvie. She had to have some kind of espinodge and and dectective work to work with Nick Fury.

Actually Kitty was never offically trained by SHIELD. She was brought in to work with them when they had a demon take over their computer and they needed an expert hacker to stop the demon. She never offically work for Nick Furry and was never trained by them.

All her training was done with the X-Men & Excalibure.

Her martial arts and espionage training specifically comes from Wolverine.

Robin meanwhile was trained by the best in the business (Batman, Nightwing, Oracle, Batgirl, Shiva, FBI Agent Rollins, Huntress, and so on). I mean, the A.P.E.S. which is the equivilant of S.H.E.I.D. doesn't know anything about Robin really. Only rumors and hear-say.

Meanwhile S.H.I.E.L.D. knows everything there is to know about Kitty, long before the X-Men went public.

And it seems like Robin wins this one. Damn Batclan! Which is ironic considering the next matchup. Yes, that one.