I just got back from spending two days at Phoenix Comic-con. Among the many awesome people I got to meet I had the chance to listen and talk to Greg Ayres again, a voice actor I'm sure some of you are familiar with.

He had a panel talking about the effects that piracy has had on the Anime industry, and the effects that it is going to have if things don't change. Its one he's been doing for a few years now and I'm pretty sure he did it last time I met him. In short, the industry is basically dying. Per capita the distribution of pirated anime is far worse than anything the movie,porn, or even the music industry has ever had to deal with.

The massive amounts of loss profit has even begun to affect the Japanese market, which before was having no problem at all. Shows are being canceled, some while they are still in mid production even. Geneon, one of the biggest distributors of anime to the US shut down its American branch at the end of 2007 as did Pioneer (both technically the same company I believe actually). Even newtype magazine is going out of business, I believe February is going to be their last issue.

The basic time frame that people in the business are saying change needs to happen in is two years, if things don't that basically means that were all going to be seeing a hugely downsized industry and maybe even the loss of the entire industry all together. People are already losing jobs, and things have reached a critical point.

As fans and members of the anime community I agreed with Greg that we need to support the anime and the people who make it by buying official products and not contributing to the continued theft. Greg mentioned that they have recently acquired information about the owner of narutofan.com (a site who's business is highly illegal) that will allow them to hopefully get the site shut down and prosecuted.

You all may not like the idea of giving up your free subs, but its a very likely possibility that within a small timeframe there isn't going to be much more anime to sub.

It really doesn't matter, because unless places like that and YouTube are contacted, they'll still be able to rip off anime. It's sad, really.

Good, if Narutofan goes down, that's one less gay place to worry about. They'll all migrate to AnimeSuki and that place will get worse than it already is.

Also, I don't think there's much that can be done about the current anime situation. People are still going to sub anime, even if the list goes down and down. Big companies like Sunrise or KyoAni probably aren't going to go out of business any time soon, so it's those other side companies that will probably suffer, which is bad in its own way, since they make good anime too. :(

So how would this affect shows that's aren't licensed or available in your country? And there's practically no hope of it ever being dubbed in your native language.
Or it's so old that it really doesn't make much of an impact.

What would happen to those types of anime?

The entire industry is in danger, not just the American one. Change needs to happen on both the fans side and the industry's side, if not anime in its entirety as we know it today will be completely dead within a matter of years.

that means no more hentai for saito...

Please keep non-serious posts out of the Debate boards

WARNING THIS IS ACTUALLY SERIOUS

Do they actually have subs you can buy or would you have to order the raws on a dvd?

Could you explain to me how fansubbing effects the Japanese Market?

As of now, I'm not really arguing, but it strikes me as odd, that english fansubs would effect the japanese market.

If the US anime industry collapses due to poor DVD sales because the fansubbers are cranking out superior stuff for free, it'll (American companies) take all the royalty and licensing money it shells out to Biblical hell. Therefore, the Japanese anime industry is in a state of "SUDDENLY, NO FUNDS". What happens then? They'll be going OH, FUCKSHITDAMN and then in order to prevent itself from going under like a cheap prostitute, they'll be forced to downsize and fire employees.

The number of series per season will be cut short, animation quality will suffer like Uwe Boll's credibility of actually making a good movie, and maybe a studio or two will close it's doors and maybe it'll go downhill.

Mind you, this is a worst, worst case scenario. If the american companies actually did decent dubbing instead of crappy dubbing and subpar subbing, then they'll get actual profits from fans of the series and people who are new to this stuff. And tried to do them in a speedy manner, instead of glorifying slowpoke. Honestly, i'd support them if it wasn't such shit and damned expensive. Because fucking hell, three episdoes of an anime or something like that costs as much as something made in America like...Scrubs?

Basically, better, faster, stronger and cheaper DVDs.

Anime is actually more affordable now then it has ever been. Back in the early 90's I remember paying up to one hundred dollars for a single OVA VHS tape. So in general most cases of people using the "its too expensive!" excuse don't pass for me =P

I see, so a good portion of profit the Japanese companies make comes from the actual licensing to the American market?

I think the best solution to the problem would be just like KKL said... They have to put out a better product, in terms of dubbing, and in terms of how fast they release. There are a few anime that I really like, such as Robotech and Escaflowne, both of which I've spent money to buy the DVDs rather than just download them.

But overall, I do feel that DVDs are too expensive for the amount of episodes per DVD, at least in most cases. Like, my Robotech DVDs for example, have 6 episodes per DVD. That just seems insanely low, compared to when I'm burning anime off my harddrive, I can sometimes fit 25 episodes per DVD.

Basically, I think it would probably help their sales if they got more episodes per DVD, or just generally lowered the price of DVDs. I don't want to spend like, $20 for 6 episodes.

why don't the "smart" americans hire the fan subbers to sub the anime so we don't have to hear these (usually) crappy dubs?

Translation isn't the problem people have, most of the time, with dubs.

Or if translation is a problem, its mostly because the script had to be changed/toned down in order to get it on TV.

It isn't a matter of translation. You won't see an American TV network air a TV show in Japanese, but with English subtitles, and I completely understand. For most people, its issues that come up in terms of editing, and with voice actors.

Wouldn't anime that isn't dubbed in America for sale be okay for DLing?

Here's my take on the matter: as much as I realize that downloading anime for free is wrong, if it's not aired here, then how am I going to know if it's good or not? Decent series seem to get licensed pretty quickly, but, besides the huge ones (Naruto, Bleach, FMA, etc.), nothing ever happens with them. They just go straight to DVD and then the production company complains about low sales. Never once did I see any sort of advertisement for the American GaoGaiGar or TMoHS DVDs. In fact, I rarely see advertisement for any anime that's not on Toonami or Adult Swim (the latter of which has been severely lacking in the anime department for a while). It mystifies me how the dubbers think the DVDs will sell when no one knows about them. The one advertisement for recent anime I HAVE seen is that one for Gurren Lagann. I hope to god they don't air that.

One comment I'd like to make on Sent's statement about not showing a show in Japanese with subs: people go to see subbed movies like Hero, Pan's Labyrinth, and Amelie, so why would they be less likely to watch a dubbed TV show? I don't really get the difference.

my rl friend has TV japan and it has subs so he can watch naruto on his tv, just needs to pay for the channel yet it has more then just anime...

Who cares about piracy?

I think its better to watch a free TV show then to pay for it.

Now the americans dubbing stuff..that needs to stop.

Way to look at the big picture. Did you even read anything in this thread? x_o

Obviously someone cares about piracy, otherwise this thread wouldn't have been made at all. Also, good job about not contributing anything meaningful to this besides standard wapanese anime fan garbage.

...I dont see what the big deal is about piracy, everyone does it. Your taking music from the net arnt you?

You watch youtube.
You upload pictures and images that were originaly not yours and use them.

Its all piracy.

Its the dubbing, and the changing of movies that makes me upset.

And im not as big a fan of anime as i used to be....

I just dont like watching good shows effects be ruined by bad editing...
____________

So in short: Everyone has done something that involves piracy

Watching something on Youtube isn't piracy. Hell, it isn't even illegal. Why else do you think Youtube goes through the hassle of deleting a lot of videos related to licensed anime?

The difference between industrys is that the music industry has gone through its growing pains and learned to adapt with the net so that piracy of music barely even affects them anymore.

Almost all profit for the anime industry comes from DVD sales, and quite frankly I dont things would get better even if they adapted like the music industry did (say like a anime iTunes) because quite frankly anime "fans" don't give a damn how cheap and accessible companies make their shows to them. If they can get it for free from a fansubber then they wont bother.

And your complaints on dubs has no place in this topic, because quite frankly thats a matter of personal preference. Thats why companies give you the option of switching to the original Japanese voices on their DVD's.

OK, the point still remains: This planet is Piracy.

(I fail at this dont i?)

We're not debating whether piracy goes on. All of us know that it exists. We're discussing the reasons why it goes on and what sort of things might be done to reduce/stop it.

The only solution that could work would be to attack the fansubbers, but that wouldn't be possible due to the political complications of it.

Though it would be interesting if anime companies hire the fansubbers.

Actually piracy is not extreme to the extent of just anime, look at this:

http://www.pspfanboy.com/2008/03/09/ridicu...piracy-numbers/

Disgusting indeed. I hate dishing out so much money on something that someone can manipulate to get for free at the cost of a small fee to play or watch things for free.

I own 6 of those games (picked up Loco Roco, Metal Gear, Burnout at a Flea Market for a pretty good price, I picked up GoW on launch day and I bought Ratchet not too long ago at GS used and bought Patapon), which ended up costing me about $120 excluding tax.

Anime seems to be a big thing, and the bigger things are, the more people want it and some people rather get it by just using the easy way instead of actually buying it or watching it whenever it is publicly released. The only way I can see this stopping is by being a true collector or having true pride. For example; at least I have the pride of showing everyone that I paid the money and I own the UMD and that I actually cared enough about the game to get it legitimately. Darn you CFW =(

Well although I am talking about manipulating CFW, these same principals apply to the piracy of, well, anything. For example, some of you can show people that nifty boxset or DVD box or whatever and feel proud that you own what is officially published by the endorsers of your favorite show.

I believe it's wrong, since it's copyright material and is illegal.

But, we have to see this first.

Pirated copies are the only things that can reach the masses. The mass, being the majority, sometimes are poor in finance but great in number. THe only way they can consume these products is through piracy. They can't afford to use originals.

I have a policy of not pirating/emulating any current-gen games, which is the main reason why I haven't bought one of those DS storage cartridge things. If we don't support the industry, then no one will and video games/anime/etc. will cease to be. I understand pirating of anime moreso than games, since a lot of it isn't and will never actually be released outside of Japan. I do try to buy DVDs of shows I like when they get brought to the US, just to show my support. Plus, it's always nice to watch TMoHS again. And I really wish Media Blasters would at least finish GaoGaiGar. x_o

It would be better to just release (AND SUB) anime at the same time in the US and Japan. That way, no one has to wait for their episodes, and there would be no excuse for someone to fansub.

I'll admit that more people watch anime online than actually go out and buy it, but then again, where would we be if we didn't break the law? (See: The Giver, Uglies, other pro-corrupt utopia novels and movies)

... My two cents there, but I haven't really though about it much, so just half a cent.

EDIT: I've just been informed that Gonzo teamed up with Crunchyroll to show legal subs of two animes. Blassreiter and some other anime I forgot the name of. See, if production companies did this instead of that "Let's wait three years before we dub this" strategy, and also drop some more anime onto ITunes for .99 USD per episode, then maybe they would make some profits.

Anime on iTunes at the moment:
Bakugan Battle Brawlers
Noein
Tactics
Ghost in the Shell
Solty Rei
Tokko
Robotech: Shadow Chronicles
Suzuka

... These are all dubs, by the way, and can all be purchased for less than 2 USD per episode and usually less if you buy all of them at once.

I watch anime off the web. I occasionally download it.

Why?

Because I'm dirt poor. I would like to enjoy all of the awesome shows and manga my friends always tell me about, but I lack any source of income, and try as I might, I still can't manage to land a job. I have NO means of income.

While this doesn't mean I have no choice but to stream anime, it certainly does impose a substantial inconvenience. On those nights when I have nothing to do, I'd rather stream some anime than sit and stare at a wall for 5 hours.

When it comes down to it, I support internet piracy. It's forcing large companies to shut down due to lack of money. Which is a -good- thing. Also, if they tell you their anime is going to stop if they go down, that's a blatant lie. They're only the producers. The original creators of the anime can always find someone else, or find a different medium to convey their stories. Just because a company dies, doesn't mean the idea goes down with it.

Plus, if the huge anime companies fall, it presents more of an opening for other, lesser known people to bring forth their work, and potentially bring something new and epic to the table. Without restriction, a LOT more people will be free to express themselves, and overall promote general creative ability.

Whenever a major anime, story, or movie ends, then countless fanfictions and fan stories continuing the series start popping up everywhere. These creations usually spark the creation of something new and different.

All in all, I think this is a good thing because of 2 things: 1. It allows people less fortunate to enjoy the same thing, and 2. It topples the industry and forces people to get off their lazy asses and MAKE SOMETHING THEMSELVES.

Seriously, quit complaining. It pisses me off.

Note: To those 'voice actors' and producers and anyone else in the anime business for the money: QUIT YER BITCHIN'. As an adult, it was your choice to go into those fields, so you need to assume responsibility for that choice. You can't blame losing your job on MILLIONS of other people. The job market this day is cruel and vicious; trust me, I know. If you can't suck it up and look for another job, then you honestly do deserve to live on the streets. Sorry for sounding if I don't really care, but no one that's hiring in the working world cares about the drama-shit-fest that was your life and previous job either. -_-

Ummm, without an industry you don't get any anime at all =/ If the "big" companies fail why should smaller companies even bother to try making it in a dead industry? Anime is a business like anything else, if the mainstream falls then so do all the small contenders, its a domino effect.

In fact those smaller companies you seem to support so much are the ones who are being hit first and the hardest right now, alot of small local Japan only studios have already been shut down because of the lack of income.

Don't expect to get ANY quality anime if this fallout continues to happen, the industry will be reduced to what few studios can manage to stay in business and they will most likely be forced to keep their shows local to Japan only. How would they be able to afford to release anything stateside for us? Your essentially going to see anime regress back to its state from 50's or 40's.

And you know what? Voice acting isn't a very profitable career choice, those actors do what they do because they love anime and they aren't just whining because of the loss of money. Many voice actors got their start in other fields like theater and opera, they have other professions to lie back on if they were to lose their voice acting jobs.

But hey, if I follow your logic that means its okay for me to go out and pirate movies and video games right? That way I destroy the big bad corporations profits and give the little guy a better chance. Oh but wait, most smaller companies in the gaming and movie industry get their start by getting financial backing and support from bigger established companies. I wonder what happens to the little guy then when he isn't able to secure a studio to produce his work and fund it? Or when he can't find anyone to properly distribute it?

Apparently you misinterpreted what I was trying to get at.

Basically, I don't really care, because of the 'quality' anime being produced today is a load of garbage meant to appeal to 1st graders.

I never said I 'supported' the little guy. I don't really support anything than what you as an individual wants to do.

I don't really want to argue this here. There's not much point in arguing about something that's going to happen anyway.

The deed's been done, there's no turning back. Only a decline is left for anime. The only thing we can affect is the speed at which it declines.

I'm gonna go back to streaming Outlaw Star now. You know, decent anime that they stopped making 10 years ago, and then replaced it all with 3rd grade drama and action violence. :O

You can still find good quality stuff, its just hard to find it amongst all the garbage, most of which is the product of this very problem in my opinion. I know theres nothing but decline on the way, but I just don't feel like 100% accepting it like an inevitability yet :[

I raised myself on Anime, It'd be a shame to watch it fade back into obscurity.

That must have been -some- childhood. O.o

Anyway, I just watch anime from like, the 70's and 80's, and early 90's anyway. xD

Trigun, Outlaw Star, Cowboy Bebop, Lupin III, Hokuto No Ken ect. =P