Well, our Favorite political party, Democrats, have been pushing for a set withdrawal date to pull combat troops out of Iraq, going so far as to withhold funding for the troops to get a withdrawal date included with the funding.

Now, lets discuss why this is a good/bad idea. I'd like to hear other view points on the issue before I give my own.

I think it's a great idea....that war isn't going anywhere. America's been sucking anyway, they can't get anything done. Vietnam/Iraq.

No real reason to have even gone in there, we just wanted the oil and now we're just wasting time and sending more of people to their death because the slug in office can't think of a smart idea. The short-sightedness of the leaders on the battlefield and in office just amazes me. If we're in Iraq any longer we'll get pulled into a civil war, all because no one will let us pull out until the job is done.

Newsflash: The job will NEVER be done. It's going to turn into a religous war if we're there or not and honestly, do we really want to get dragged into a religous war? I answer myself: No.

So yes, let's withdraw as soon as possible and let them kill each other. They were going to do it anyway.

So, we tell the terrorist when we are leaving, so they can get ready to take over and turn it into hell then?

EDIT:

What the hell? Oil? Have you SEEN gas prices? Now, the law of supply and demand, would say that if we went there for Oil, that Gas prices would come down, because we would have more. But, they are still freaking high. People who say "War for oil" are completely offbase. No such thing happend.

Most of the fighting in Iraq is just centered at Bagdad, rather than the entire country. And guess what? Fighting like this even happend in Germany after WW2. Is isn't anything new.

Uhhh, WHY? Do you honestly believe those people are incapable of not killing each other? If so, just look at some of the other places around the region. Like Kuwait, or Saudi Arabia. Those people are capable of not killing themselves. Hell, they have decent relations with us!

Here's an idea: Why not just take the funding and buy transportation for the troops?

What...?

This had better not be a stupid post, cause I don't have any idea whatsoever where you're going with this.

Indeed Eugene that made hardly any sense.

To Harem:
I don't bother with gas prices because I have no reason to drive. Everyplace I could go is within walking distance. But that's beside the point. It's not a war on terror in the full meaning anymore. At 9/11 it was I'll admit that. Look at gas prices BEFORE this whole mess started, now look at their current state. We depend mainly on the middleeastern oil sources and WHERE are we fighting? In the middle east. If your that bothered by high gas prices then pray that we can use something like wind as a fuel source in the near future.

And I'm talking about those we're currently fighting against, not those around the country. When did I state anything else? The other countries can have good relations with us, that's fine and I have no problem with it. But what I'm saying is the two secs of religon are something we need to think about. It's going to be a religous war if we pull out or not, plain and simple. I just love how you use aggressive tactics to try to disclaim infomation that's widely accepted as the truth. It's like you attack anyone who disagrees with your viewpoints...

Just don't try to drag me into a flame war like you just did. I'm not in the mood to deal with such bull crap today.

Logic says that if we went into Iraq for Oil, we would have it now, because we won. Yet... Prices are still high. So we don't have that oil. I wonder why. If we went into Iraq for Oil, we should have it by now, right?

Where did I attack you? I just re-read my post, and I don't see it. What I'm doing is debating your points, and showing what I believe to be flaws about them. By the way, saying the war is for oil is NOT "widely accepted as truth", nor is it "widely accepted as truth" that the Iraqis will tear their own country down in religious civil war, nor is it "widely accepted as truth" that we can't solve this problem.

And our problems against the insurrgates there would be alot less if we would just kill Al-Sadr, the cleric instigating most of the stuff. But that is how rebellions are put down. You kill the rebels.

It is the people of the country who can decide their fate now. If we abandon them, those who stuck their neck on the line to create a democracy, so that they can live in peace, would be murdered when whoever takes over. We are giving them an opportunity to better their situation. If we stay, and get the Iraqi Government stable, they can handle it themselves. Civil wars don't last forever.

Flame war? Chibi, this is a debate board. People are supposed to argue on their views and points on issues like this. This is why I wrote on the board description to not post stupid posts, because this thread is for serious issues. This is not a flame war.

I think this whole war started because he wanted to get Saddam because of what happened with his father. He just wanted to candy coat it with the whole Oil and weapons of Mass destruction stuff. In fact, I bet the whole Weapons of Mass destruction fiasco was a lucky guess to use as an excuse to invade iraq. The terrorism thing is horse crap. If he really cared about it, he would have gone after Alcaeda(Sp?) first and then Saddam.

You know that we DID (go after Al-Qaeda), right? When we took the Taliban out of power in Afghanistan?

Problem with Iraq is the same damn problem we had with Somalia, except that Clinton went in there with good intentions and pulled out once things looked too messy. That's EXACTLY what we should have done with Iraq.

Here's our main problem:

- The Iraqi insurgent groups control most of the country.

- They fight guerrilla style, meaning even the seven year old girl waving to you at the convoy could be carrying a bomb under her clothes. Yes, bomb camps include children.

- They've warped the Qu'ran more then the Council of Nicea desecrated the bible. Allah believes in peace and honors women, being he is the only monotheistic god I know of whose holy book mentions FEMALE ANGELS. Of course, using religion gives people a drive to fight.

- Our military chain of command are fucking morons. No, seriously. They're morons.

-We underestimated them from the start. BAD. IDEA.

What We Need to do:

The same thing Nixon did with Vietnam: pull out gradually over the course of several months.

And actually, some of the WMD that Iraq could have is quite scary.
That's if they are biological weapons.
It's a good and bad thing because any kind of biological weapons research place will be hidden. And the fact that biological weapons are shunned from the view of the public.
Though the troops are suffering, there's also the quite basically fact that there are biological weapons research going on in Iraq. Which is bad...

Yeah. The book "Cobra Event" shows you quite a bit on biological weapons research. Even though it is mostly a fiction book, some parts of it are real.

Eh, just something to add.

I agree that the War has been managed horribly up to now. You won't see me defend that. However, what good is there in pulling out? Leave now, while the terrorist there are in control? If we do that, Iraq turns into another Afghanistan. Islamic Extremist don't run on a "Live and let live" policy.

I fully believe that a once the Iraqi Government becomes stable, most of the fighting will stop. I also believe we can tone it down by killing their leaders now. Take out their head, their organizations become less organized, and therefore less effective.

And there is no question that Saddam was developing WMDs. I remmeber some new story I read about us finding Mustard Gas and things like that. Plus, we know he has used the stuff before, when he gassed the Kurds.

He's HAD mustard gas and such weapons since the Gulf War. That shouldn't be a shock to people. That's like people yelling at Iran for their nuclear programs when the Soviets and the U.S. are the ones who gave them advanced technological weapons so we could fund rebels in South America under Reagan. :rolleyes:

Many countries have WMD, it's a matter of who they want to use them against. The U.S. -- hell, the whole damn world -- has always been selective in that regard. And Saddam wasn't even the tip of the iceberg in that government; most likely he was a puppet leader and funder of the terrorists. The terrorists themselves have a hierarchy, and frankly, they're not going to go away. What about children in Iraq who have suffered, had families killed, etc.? They're easy pickings for recruitment.

This is a war you can't really win, because there will always be a new leader, a new generation, etc. And if Saddam did have nuclear missiles, you can bet your ass they are VERY well hidden. They could have tunnels and caves just like the Vietnam army and we'd never know it, and be hiding the weapons deep underground.

P.S. It's not just the best interest of the troops, but for the country's morale and for the economy, which if you haven't noticed, is going downhill. Someone bring Clinton back, I don't care who the hell he screws in the oval office, the man can run a God damn country.

He also wasn't supposed to have it, under the terms that ended the Gulf War.

And, uhhh, Iran getting a nuclear program would be really, really bad. Those guys are crazy in their jew hate. If they ever do get Nuclear Capability, expect LOTS of shit to happen in the middle east, with Israel.

That is the first I've ever heard of that. In terms of Saddam being a puppet. Regardless though, just about everyone who ran that government has been taken out, or taken in. Foreign terrorists are the threat in the country now.

I don't believe he ever got Nuclear capability. Thank God we went in before he could.

I don't believe we are fighting the entire Iraqi People in this war. The Iraqis have had good voter turnout in their elections, people joining their army, and so forth. But after the Saddam was defeated, a flood of foreign fighters came in, and those are the majority of what we are fighting now.

And like I said, our main goal right now is to get the Iraqi Government stable. They might fight us for all eternity, but the objective is to get it so we don't have to. Once the Iraqis run things, and we are out of there, most of this crap will probably stop. Notice the "once the Iraqis run things" part, however. If we leave them how they are now, kiss Iraq good bye, and say hello to new Afghanistan.

Best interest of the troops? As in, not putting them in harms way? If that is the case, why ever go to war? I think the best thing for them is to give them the flexability, funding, and support they need to do what they need to do. But we probably won't ever agree on that.

I agree and disagree about the country's morale. Win a war, everyone is happy. Lose one, and people aren't.

And I don't see what the War has to do with the Economy. And from what I've seen, it has been doing fine since the Clinton/Gore Resession. Though, I'd rather have Reagan, or someone like him, back in office, rather than all these fake conservatives the Rebublicans have running around now.

The best interest of our troops is to fight. They knew they were gonna get into a war, its the ARMY. Not only that, they worked hard to get this far, and if we leave now, all will go to waste.

Plus, if we pull out now, first they are gonna blow the hell outta eachother, then they\'ll come over here, and to asia and africa, take us all over, world war, 1/3 of total populas goes buh-bye. We might be killing off others, and they are killing us off, but if we let them war and continue to build in strength, they wont be satisfied with just that area. Human nature is selfish. They would kill more people then it is possible for the net death to become. Nukes, invasions, suicide bombers. The world would be a mess.

Pull out? Pull out?! We can't pull out. If we pull pull out now as Nixon did in the past whats going to happen? The Terrorist groups just aint gonna to say "Oh goody the americans are pulling out. Now we can stop fighting, and live peaceful lives." They'll keep coming, won't stop, they hate us, They want us dead. If we pull out and let the situation in Iraq handle its self well then...

Yeah. . .Not my idea of a great Sunday morning. I think we should stay and fight. At least at this point.

Or instead of staying and fighting we could pull out all at once and nuke the hell out of them.

thats it im done Im staying out of this.

What really ticks me off about all of this is that so many people were supportive of going in and fighting and now all of those people want to pull out. We can't do that! Like bass said they want to us dead. I'll admit some of the strategies were attempting aren't the brightest things but we've made progress. I don't want to get caught up in a religious war or a civil war but before we pull out we need to make sure that they can support themselves. People we can't pull out until the enemy is gone. Otherwise more Innocent civilians will die. Also I don't want to hear any crap about how the soldiers are dying because their is no draft so the soldiers are going voluntarily knowing what the heck they're getting into. Also no I will not support a draft.

you guys don't get the point we are not going to leave until the terrorists are gone
we won't leave until we get osama bin-laden and we sure as hell won't leave until afghanistan and iraq both are safe.

Uh, the point of this thread is to say if it's a good idea or not to pull out. Your statement is kind of... obvious under our current leader. Once our new president comes about (which will be soon), things are different. You are technically not even on topic. Please try not to do that again.

If America pulls out now, I think Iraq will become like what happened to Africa in the past, except that some of them have an extreme hatred for America.
Most likely, an anti-America group will take over and send even more terrorist attacks will occur. Soon, one will go through the security and something worse than 9/11 will occur.

=/

You guys (mostly Chibi) are getting me mad. Look, I have great pride in what we are doing, and there is no reason to pull out now. Sure, 3000 men have died, but we've killed so many more of them. The terrorists may never be defeated, I admit, but we can sure as hell stop them from doing another 9/11. The flag that was flown over Afghanistan by a chopper on the day of their elections hangs in my school, and I take pride in that, and I am never going to let f**king democrats and liberals pull us out of there until every f**king Muslim terrorist bastard is dead.

When Iran comes knocking, which they will, we'll need to be there and be ready. These idiots who think we're over there for oil need to think instead of drool. Prices are high, idiots, and that makes no sense. These aren't two foot tall Asians hiding in holes with spikes, these are religious terrorists with AK-47s hiding in piles of clothes in buildings. I think we can handle them. Osama and his dirty rats won't hide forever. We've gotta be there for no other sake than to save Israel when they come under attack.

So, Chibi, you are wrong. Oh, and by the way, Dragonskin armor will save us once it's distributed to the troops. It'll cut troop deaths by at least 75% if I heard correctly.

Oh, and SPZ, shut up. Seriously. That's his opnion on the topic, and he has the right so say it. So what if it's off-topic? You admins are off-topic more often than not, too. God, who the hell put the snake up your pants?

Uh, yeah we do. We've lost 3000 people, and sure. We have killed them. But we've resulted in a situation where all we've done is fuck up Iraq.

Sadly that's not any of our decision, but their's. And I doubt anyone will actually get every single terrorist.

Uh, it's pretty much been established that we're there for oil. If we really went in for terrorists, we would have went in Afghanistan instead of Iraq.

And yet there is the fact that we've lost 3000 Men. Yes, they cannot match our weaponry; but that is why they use suicide bombers. That is their way of matching our military. I wouldn't take them lightly. People with nothing to lose are much more dangerous, and also I would know seeing as there have already been videos out showing that they pretty much convince their people that they don't have anything to lose and they will fulfill their life's purpose by doing a suicide bombing.

I agree with that.

His opinion is not even on topic. This debate board is to discuss serious issues, and the topic is to discuss about how people feel about the withdrawal date. Colonel merely stated that Bush is going to keep our people there until they think they've solved everything. Yeah, tell us something we don't know.

I'm not saying his opinion is worthless, but everyone kind of knows that.

Gee, I think my post was off topic because I was telling him to try to contribute more than the obvious. I think the real question is why the hell are you so touchy about this? If you can't even stand to hear other people's opinions, then please learn to lighten up. You've only made a single post yet all you're doing is bashing other people's opinions. This is clearly not even a debate post; it's more of a flame post.

And just try questioning my motives again. I'm not here to be an idiot. I'm here to try to make sure everything stays in order, and people don't go out of control! You're already doing that. I don't see why you can't just sit down, and have a nice DEBATE with people without lashing out at them.

I'm touchy about this because I've had family in wars before and I have pride in it, and I don't want them to get us again. If we leave, there will be four more planes crashing into out buildings. Not that I agree with everything that Bush has done, but I think the only good withdrawal date will be when the Iraqis can fight the terrorists themselves.

AMEN BLADES AMEN !!!!!! Those democrats have there heads so far up their butts their heads are digesting in their stomuchs. SPZ it is a free country and I have MY right to free speach and i think that no president in there right mind would ever withdraw troops until this fight is fought PEACE!!!

Being touchy about it doesn't justify you bashing other people's opinions. Also, how do you know they'll send more planes at us if we leave? Sure, it's a good possibility, but as it's a debate board I would hope that you have reason for that.

Also...How does having pride of the military equate to blindly supporting anything they do? If it was for gas or not, for military reasons or not... whatever reason it was, I still don't condone them. Why? Saddam did not have the nuclear weapons that Bush claimed he did. Also he didn't think far in the future and was so confident that them being there would quell the chaos. The middle eastern people hate the United States. They really do. I highly doubt that they would just let us come us and do stuff for them.

I never said you couldn't talk. But just try to contribute more than the obvious. And uh... really? What about Vietnam? We left because we couldn't win, and it was the right decision. Presidents should know the difference between a battle lost and a losing battle. Nixon knew.

1.) Read the Debate Forum Description.
2.) Yes, this is a free country. So the opposing side can say what they want too. However, you're being one of the classic idiots that regurgitate old information. In fact, I can say you Republicans have your heads up your asses too.

No, we have our heads to our friends guns. Duh. See? I can bash myself.

Okay that was a little unneccesary.

The main reason I don't want a withdraw is the possibility of another attack. Sure they may not attack but there is that possibility and I don't think america wants to see another 9/11 or have a chance of there being another 9/11.

Whats this now? WE fucked up Iraq? Yes, damn you America, for going in there and taking down one of the worst dictators since Hitler. We should bring him back from the death, and let him reopen his rape-rooms, let him gas kurds, and murder anyone who opposes his rule.

What we did, was took the fight to a beligerant middle eastern nation, and now are fighting the extremist who want us dead.

Agreed, impossible to kill every last terrorist. What is possible, however, is to destroy their 'head', and reduce them to an unorganized group of extremist.

Uhhh, no? Supply and Demand>You. And guess what? WE DID go into Afghanistan first. And we took out the Taliban. And that country is ALOT better off now than it was then.

If we went into Iraq for Oil, we would have more oil to bring the cost of gas down. But, it isn't. So, I call bullshit on this. "Pretty much established" my ass :gwah:

If every terrorist was a suicide bomber, then why are there still terrorist?

Obviously, not all are. In fact, only a few are. The ones who don't blow themselves up, get their ass kicked. Suicide bombing checkpoints or recruiting stations is all the can do against us, since we demolish them in every other military encounter we get with them.

Two things:

-Freedom of Speach exists to the extent the Admins allow on EXEW.
-Democrates would withdraw.

Wait... When did Bush say he had Nukes? Oh wait... He didn't. WMD=/=Nuke. It can be nukes. Or, what is more likely in this case, Chemical and Biological weapons. Which we have found evidence for. We had full justification under US Resolution 687 (the one after the end of the first Gulf War) to go in there.

Like, bear with the source for a second (I don't have a problem with it, but Liberals do), and read these, you might find them interesting:
Iraq and Syria
WMDs in Iraq
Gas

The Mideast might hate the US, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't go in when we are doing it to prevent threats to this country.

Leaving Vietnam was not the right thing to do. Not only did it screw America's credibility to finish what they started, but the only reason the war went as bad as it did, was because we went in there to not lose. Not to win. Plus, even with that mentality, the Viet Kong had its back broken, and I doubt they could have lasted much longer.

(H)

I saw on the news that the US, supplied IRAQ with weapons! How the hell? Thats like having tea with Hitler during World war 2.

All Bush does is cause trouble.

Politics ruin peoples lives. IMO, Canada should not help the usa if they are just gonna start stuff with people.

Such debates over this... As if our opinions have any difference on it. Hell, it's big protests and peace-marches that'll stop it, and you know the hippies are gonna be back. Vietnam was lost because the media decided to screw with it. We were winning from a military standpoint, and casualties were so high on their side. People will make the stupidest excuses to fill their opinions.

Some people have their minds blurred so badly of the truth by the media. Fox is one of the few good ones left, and they report the truth. Those e-mails with the "pictures too graphic for TV" are right. The kids especially over there love us, and see us as salvation. They'll grow up and make a US-friendly state. After a war, two countries can't help but get along sometimes. Look at Germany and Japan. We overthrew two tyrant leaders and made two allies.

Saddam was raised with a Nazi mentality. If you read about him, he would strive to be like Hitler, and he wanted to be. He wanted to persecute the Kurds and Jews like Hitler did the Jews and Gypsies. Six million dead was nothing like what Saddam wanted. It would have been a modern Holocaust if he was still around.

It's like saying that all Vietnamese hated us. They didn't. Even in the north, many loved what we were doing. Many Middle-Eastern people like us. Iran and the terrorists are the only ones who greatly dislike us, and until we can stop being reliant on oil, we need allies there.

If nothing else, we need to be there for the Third War. It's coming, and we all know it. Billions could die, and we can't neglect that, and that area is where it would happen. Asia. Not Europe... this time.

During the Iranian-Iraq War, the US sided with Iraq. This was before Saddam did things, like gas the Kurds, and he was the lesser of 2 evils. Learn facts, kthx?

Because we ttly caused 9/11.

Shut up. Crap like that is what got Rossebay banned. You weren'y off topic, in my oponion, but you cant go saying random things just because its a free country. There are still laws and rules out there.


And Vincent, unless you study up and know what your talking about, dont start.

I'm going to be off-topic, and I don't care, but who is Rossebay? I've heard so much crap about him, and I'm sick of it.

One of my friends who got banned for spamming too much.

A little known fact that everybody including the media seems to forget:
Before we went to War Hillary Clinton had Bill's Foreign intelligence people look at the information and they concluded that Saddam had weapons and was a threat.
And hell we should have gone in there earlier just because of numerous crimes against humanity. So as far as "no real reason" goes, we had plenty of reasons. And just a slight note, Iran gets nuclear technology just a few years after we invaded Iraq.

AMEN!!! Why is this called withdrawl date? It should be Iraq debate.