I know a decent amount of you don't live in America, but you probably know enough about it to understand what the hell I'm talking about. I just needed to get this rant out of my system.

First of all, what the hell's this crap with the flag-burning amendment? (A brief recap: there's a high chance that the House, Senate, and all those other dolts are going to pass an amendment to the United States constitution making it a crime to burn the American flag.)

Look, I'm Chinese, but I'm not a commie; I've lived in the US since I was one and I'm probably a lot more patriotic than a lot of people you know (almost to the point of nationalism, in fact, but that's not such a bad thing).

However, all these bloody idiots who are passing this goddamn bill are so bloody dumb they can't see the forest for the trees. The tree represents the forest; the flag represents America. But the bloody flag doesn't epitomize the values of America, and one of those values is freedom of speech and the right to protest in whatever way you want. I'm not saying burning the flag is a good thing to do; I'm just saying that it's something we have a right to do if for some inexplicable reason we ever want to. In all practicality, this isn't even a big problem - it's not like you walk out on the street and are instantly accosted by angry crowds waving around flaming flags. And now the stupid politicans are wasting their time passing this bill.

The crappy thing is that no one is going to vote against the <blocked>ing thing. If they do, they'll instantly by slammed be the idiots who have no perspective and don't realize that they're actually doing good by voting against it. If you know me at all, you'll know I'm quite conservative and know that I'm not attacking it just because I like burning flags or anything; it simply violates a basic right given forth in the Constitution.

All right. That's the first point.

The second point concerns a Supreme Court decision that I personally think is even more undermining and stupid than the amendment. It's talked about in the Washington Post here, but for those of you who don't want to read that, the ruling is basically that local governments are allowed to force private property owners to sell their land to the government, even if there isn't anything wrong with it.

What the <blocked> is wrong with people these days?

This ruling is bloody socialism, not democracy!

Farmer Dan: "Oh, hello, Governor Bill! How're you doing!"
Governor Bill: "Oh, excellent, Farmer Dan. How about you?"
Farmer Dan: "Great, great. Crop's just coming in, so time for harvest, huh? I can spare a few melons for you if you want 'em."
Governor Bill: "Ah, about your farm..."
Farmer Dan: "Yes?"
Governor Bill: "Well, we've decided that it would be most beneficial to the economy if there was actually a four story hotel on that land instead. So we're buying it from you."
Farmer Dan: "W-what?! You can't just-"
Governor Bill: "Too bad. Supreme Court's on our side. And hey, guess what? The local government gets to decide how much your property is worth! Hmm, how much do I got on me... eh, ten bucks. All right, I say your property is worth ten bucks." He shoves the bills into a horrified Farmer Dan's hand. "Ayep, your land now officially belongs to the government now. Oh, and about those melons. I wouldn't mind a pumpkin or two, think you could spare some?"

(Obviously hyperbole, but you get the bloody point, don't you?)

Wait, hold on - here's a bit of comparison.

Dictionary.com's definition of socialism: "Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

The Washington Post article: "The Supreme Court ruled yesterday that local governments may force property owners to sell out and make way for private economic development when officials decide it would benefit the public, even if the property is not blighted and the new project's success is not guaranteed."

SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! IF I WANTED SOCIALISM I WOULD BLOODY HELL MOVE BACK TO CHINA! GRAAAR!

... you know, it's times like these when I wonder Axem Titanium might be on to something after all with his claims of American decadence.

... oh, actually, I have a third issue. I was listening to the radio, and supposedly practically nobody wants their kids to join the military anymore. I think that's just bloody cowardly. A caller who worked as an army recruiter phoned in and said that before September 11th, his office phones were ringing off the hook; September 12th, his office was silent as the grave.

How bloody ridiculous is that? You'd happily join the army when there's no war, but when you actually have the fight - the whole bloody point of an army - nobody signs up. On December 8th, 1941, the lines were packed with people wanting to get at the "Japs". People were lying about their age to get into the military, for Christ's sake. We're so bloody decadent now we're not even willing to fight for the country anymore.

... oh yeah. Another issue. You might have heard about this, but Chinese companies have been attempting to make rather big acquisitions in the U.S. economy of late, including takeovers of Maytag and UNOCAL, a Texas-based gas company.

These events brought to my attention that (1) even if China invaded in the traditional way, the good ol' American willingness to take up arms has apparently died, and (2) China doesn't even need to invade to wreck the U.S.

You see, not only do many American companies depend on Chinese labor, China owns a ridiculous amount of American treasury bonds (at least according to my father, who's a former banker and economist as well as a current investor, making him, at least in my eyes, a quite reputable source).

Treasury bonds work like this. When the government needs money, they sell bonds to the population. The money from the sale goes to the government, and the bond goes to the purchaser. After a while, the purchaser can redeem them for their initial investment plus interest. They're essentially government I.O.U.'s.

So the problem with China owning all those bonds is that despite the liquidity of the bond market, China owns so bloody many (again, this is from my father; I haven't had time to confirm it yet) that if they were to sell them all they would create a ridiculous rise in supply. Well, the supply and demand principle is obvious: the supply goes up while the demand stays the same, and the price just goes down the drain. So here you get all these people buying cheap U.S. bonds that in all likelihood have already matured. What are they going to do with them, just frame them and stick 'em on a wall? No, they'll cash them in. Basically, not only would the Treasury get a bleedin' ridiculous number of people trying to cash in bonds, they would also sell much less than normal because people wouldn't need to buy the bonds from them if they could buy it cheap from the Chinese.

... now, I'm not an economist even though both my parents are and I suppose it's in my blood, so it's perfectly possible that this last rant (which is mostly conjecture founded by only a small bit of research) is unlikely. Still, the economic power of China is not easily pushed aside. These days, brute force is not the way to solve things; diplomacy and economics are the statesman's new weapons of choice.

Okay, that's all for today. My wrist hurts like hell. I can't belive I wrote all that in half an hour... oh well. It's nice to get it off my mind. I bet ninety percent of the people who open this topic will take a look at this amazingly long rant and go away. If you get this far, I applaud you.

I read it all.

I wouldn't join the army. Your right, I don't care about America enough to risk my life.

China in the future, will be the world's most powerfull country, I think. The U.S. will not be able to make the change from fossil fuels when needed, and that will destroy our economy.

I peronsally read it all. Comments will come right after I get out of trouble.

finally sum1 who has sum common sense
it even says in the constitution tht the proper way to get rid of a flag is to burn it
america is stupid and the worst part is most people dont no it
no one spends enough time helping out normal people cause they're to concerned with rich people

One of those military people called my house saying that they spoke to my father about getting me enlisted but when I talked to my father, he said that he didn't know anything about it so I think they're just lying to us now to get more people in the army @_@;;

All right, I've spoken to my dad about the bonds thing and I think I get it well enough to explain it here. Here goes again.

The U.S. Treasury auctions bonds off to investors. Interest rates for the bonds are determined by the Treasury and change depending upon the need; if they need more money, they'll up the interest rates, making the bonds more delectable for investors and making them pay more for bonds.

Basically, bonds mature after a certain amount of time during which interest (how much is determined by the interest rates) is added to the initial amount paid for it, but after it matures no further interest is added (however, you can only cash in a matured bond, not an immature one).

The problem is that China (by which I mean the government itself) owns over $100 billion dollars in American bonds and buys even more, so a single change in their policy concerning American bonds could be disastrous.

There are really two major options for change: first, China could stop buying new bonds, and second, it could actually sell the bonds it does have to a secondary market (in other words, they wouldn't cash the bonds in; instead, they would sell it to other investors).

If China stops buying bonds, then the U.S. Treasury would be in a quagmire as to where to get more money. In order to get more investors to fill in China's place at the auctions, they'd have to hike the interest rates on the bonds to attract more investors. This, however, is not a good thing to do, since the U.S. free market economy fluctuates a lot. The banks, seeing that people are making money on bonds, are forced to raise their interest rates for bank accounts as well or risk losing customers. However, they can't simply raise interest rates on bank accounts (giving money) without also having some way of paying those new interest rates (losing money), so they also hike interest rates on loans, making it harder for small businesses to get going, people to buy homes and cars, etc., etc., making the U.S. economy go into a recession at the very least.

The second option, that China chooses to sell them, is incredibly worse. Instead of merely reducing demand, China selling its bonds increases supply, flooding the market with bonds. Think about it - the U.S. is off there auctioning off maybe 200, 300 bonds a year, and then China floods the market with $100 biliion worth of bonds. What are you going to do, sit at an auction for the American bonds or buy them dirt cheap on the secondary market from China?

This, of course, raises huge problems. First, the Chinese government gets filthy stinkin' rich. Second, the Treasury is forced to increase interest rates on bonds even more than if China simply stopped buying. Lastly, and perhaps even more disastrously, a domino effect occurs.

Think about it. China isn't the only country with American bonds; many countries own them. So here they are with their nice little, say, 2.5% interest rate bonds, when suddenly the Americans, to cope with China's mind-boggling sales, hike the interest rates up to 10% for new bonds. (Doesn't seem like much, but in the world of economics 10% is huge.)

What are you going to do, keep your puny little 2.5% interest rate bonds or sell the hell outta them? It's called "cutting losses" - what with all the bonds with enormous interest rates flying around (actually, it's more that the presence of a huge new seller messes up the balance of supply and demand), theirs become utterly worthless on the secondary market (cashing them in won't help much, since many bonds take 30 years to mature), so as soon as they hear that China's sold its bonds, they anticipate America's response and sell theirs too, making, of course, America's problem even worse.

Doesn't it make you feel so secure to know that China can totally wreck our economy and make a huge profit at the same time?

Of course, it's rather unlikely that they'll actually do this. They really wouldn't be gaining anything; in fact, they would be losing their major market in the west. (The amount of "Made in China" stuff in the U.S. is ridiculous; you should know that. China makes money off that stuff, you know. Ruining our economy would make that supply totally dry up. So we're safe... for now. <_<)

Well if the chinese did something like that wouldn't your hillbilly president just declare war because they're communists? I mean come on, he invaded Iraq for the oil why wouldn't he invade China to save the stock market? Heh its fun being Canadian and not having to deal with Bush as my <blocked>ing leader.

According to my World History teacher, if China sells their bonds it will force America to print large amounts of money, thus raising inflation like crazy. This would make American money almost worthless and would in turn make China lose wealth, rather than gain it. It would hurt America drastically, but it would also hurt China drastically as well, seeing as their economy has large ties in ours.

I totally agree man what with these guys?

Living in texas thats all i here about meh :(

Durendal i'm fuking tired of hearing that bull<blocked> everyday everyone <blocked>ing talk about him, even bastards who don't even <blocked>ing know him, or people who don't <blocked>ing live in amercia, a alot of damn people say well he lives in texas hes a <blocked>ing idiot, there the <blocked>ing idiots, they assume everyone who lives in texas has <blocked> for brains, i live in texas, oh wow i can type amazing, texas isn't a bunch of <blocked>ing dumbass who know nothing, <blocked> i know he made alot of mistakes, but he did <blocked>ing win the election didn't he? i'm just so damn tired of people who say people are hilbillies and a discrase becuase they live in texas, what the <blocked> is up with that, they are the <blocked>ing discrase saying people are idiots, when they are probally smarter then they are, i'm so <blocked>ing <blocked> tired of the <blocked>

okay before grondring gets me over this i've had a bad day, my arm hurts like hell, i'm to have to go to the doctors tommrow, pain just bring the worst in me, good thing i got alot of it and didn't post it o_O


Edit from Karn: Next time please don't double post. Use the edit button.

i also read it all.

wtf is that about flag burning? if anything, waiving a flag around alll the time should be banned. here anyone who even owns a english or UK flag is instantly thought of as a facist skinhead racist.

and our government has been doing that for ages, buying up private property. they only do it for roads and public transport however.

its times like these i'm glad to be english.


now, some of our polotics.

it is now <blocked>ING ILLEGAL to protest outside of the houses of parliment (i suppose comprable to your congress). why, for <blocked>s sake! its a democracy, not a police state! there is a man who has been living outside the houss of parliment, protesting, for the last 6 years. he is no-longer allowed to do that! <blocked>ING NAZIS!

But Dur is right. Bush is an idiot. The only thing that he's done that's even close to a good idea is going to save the US from total chaos in about 2020 I think, when all the fossil fuels have pretty much "dried up", create more nuclear power plants in the US. Nuclear power costs about as much as coal, is a lot cleaner and have little waste, can create lots of power from small amounts of fuel, and. . . um, I need to find that essay on nuclear power I wrote.

Also, I read most of it, I might have skipped over a paragraph or two by mistake. I think the flag amendment is one of the dumbest things they could do. They're doing this "to stop terrorism" or something like that I heard, but most of the people burning flags for terrorism AREN'T EVEN IN TEH DAMNED USA. How is this supposed to help anything? And grondy, I think I read that the only people voting against this damned bill will be Democrats, which fill what you said about "they'll instantly by slammed be the idiots who have no perspective and don't realize that they're actually doing good by voting against it."

Grr. I knew it wouldn't be long before the government began taking property after the Republicans took over. Canadians, would you welcome me? I'm getting out of here ASAP.

I'm sick of reading about China in this topic. They can <blocked> us over, and within a few years, Bush will be nuking them. It's his way, NEW-CLEAR WEAPONS!

NU-CLE-AR DAMNIT! Okay this is what I think about nuclear power: fuel yes, weapons no.

Imminent Domain has been in the constitution since it's original drafting, I believe, either that or it was added in a very early amendment. It's original intent was to insure that the good of the masses always outweigh the whims of a few.

I can understand your concern for the potential abuse of this system, but there are many safeguards to insure that Imminent Domain isn't envoked to line a few peoples pockets with gold.

For one, I believe the process is alot more drawn out than one man saying "we need this property, it's ours now". Not to mention the fact that the property can in no way be used for profitable enterprises.

Also the property is sold at "fair market value" That is to say the property is appraised (more likely than not, by a third party) and the appraised value is what it is bought at.

In short, Imminent Domain does have the potential to ruin someones day, but it will never wreck anyone and leave them destitute for strictly commercial purposes.

Now in response to your comment about military enlistment, I can say most of it comes out of a dissaproval of the current war, and it's merits. It's what originally held me off of enlisting after high school anyhow. Finally I decided to enlist in the USAF taking the job "Airborne Battle Management Systems", I hope to keep our troops out of unnecessary danger, in my position.

you know Ive always thought like that but in a calmer way still you know how to make a big point

To Dune: Huh, really? I never knew that. Is that what it's called in the Constitution, "Imminent Domain"?

I think so, my memories of Government class are rather hazy to say the least, it was so long ago, but I can typically be trusted to retain keywords such as that.

Erm...typically. I'd try and recall which section of the constitution it was in for direct quotation, but I'd best not risk overtaxing my brain cells on so little sleep.

I finally have a chance to reply here.

*clears throat*

First off, our Flag stands for the USA. By burning it, you are expressing disdain for my country. If you have such a extreme hatred America, that it causes you to burn a symbol of it.....

In our current society, is it possible to be a traitor anymore?

If so, what length do you have to go to? honestly.........


On the ruling regarding property...That's just f*cked up. 'tis another case of judges making posterior's out of themselves..making people sell their property for public uses-good. Making people sell their property for a developers good-Very bad.


Hmm...I agree with you. People are cowards. They are overjoyed to experience the privileges of being an American. But the moment they are asked to give something to help protect those rights...Ugh. people like that disgust me. I had planned on joining up...But stuff is happening and I'm no longer sure if I will.


Uh huh. People are greedy, and they have this idea that giving jobs to China is cheaper. Of course once you add in the shipping back and forth; They really don't save all that much.(not to mention the fact taht the Chinese cannot do the more difficult jobs. *grins* I know that from working for a business, that got work back due to the fact that the Chinese companies couldn't do it. ^_^)

Alot of the problem could be solved by government cutting the stupid restrictions/taxes on businesses.>_>

Wow....Now, I know America's stupid at times. I live in America. Even FALL RIVER's stupid. They don't even care about the people, just what's good for them. But I like it here. There are good qualities. But overall, sometimes they're total jackasses.

EDIT: Now, there is SIMPLY NO NEED TO quote a long post like that for such a short reply. Don't. -SL

Aren't you guys lucky to have me, who has acquired legible copies of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights straight from the National Archives during my mid-March school-sponsored trip to Washington D.C.?

Now, what exactly are you two looking for, Grondring, Dune? :D

Hmm, my opinion on all this?

Flag Burning: Let 'em do it. Who cares? Damn hippies (no offense mega_dude)

Property crap: Holy (shadow dun like you to say dat), It's Stalin all over again

War: What do i give a damn for? I'm dominican, i could just go home

China stuff: I buy chinese products, whole buncha people buy chinese products, in other words... they probably wouldn't do that whole stop buying bonds crap....




Shadow: :angry:

speaking of the army thing, what the hell is the deal with them extending soldier's pensions without their consent

*turns into grondy* IT'S SOCIALISM DAMMIT!!! SOCIALISM!!!!!!!

I agree with Firecross. It is socialism. :hopping: :hopping: :hopping: DAMN YOU SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!

American manufacturing companies definitely need to take a couple long steps away from the amount of out-sourcing they are doing now. I realize that foreign labor is often cheaper but Americans need jobs too.

Also, sure global interdependence is good and all but once again America is in it a little to far. We need to get away from OPEC and the Middle Eat in general for a while (except maybe Israel, ever since Britain made that place after WWII and then pulled out its entire military force its been a bit unstable. I'm not saying start fighting I'm just saying show the Israeli's some support) The point is we need a new energy source and we need it bad, and if we find it, it would do us some good to share it with the rest of the world.