Alright, I'm just starting Iron Warriors (almost have my first unit complete and they're looking ace), and I'm wondering how to kit out my Havocs for best effect, or to take them at all. Feedback helpful.

When I take havocs I usually takes either autocannons or missile launchers. But usually I take my predator and some oblitz...they maybe ugly biggers but they're my babies. Plasma cannoned a marine army to death leaving only the Chapter master for my lord to clean up.

yeah I must say this depends on the enemy you face. If you face space marines (3+ armour save), you probably don't want to bother with auto cannons or heavy bolters. In my experience these can be saved far too easily. my choice would be missile launchers (krak) or lascannons. lascannons can't even be saved by terminators. but if you really want to hurt someone, just take lots of oblits and use plasma cannons against MEQ and multimeltas against tanks. you also can deepstrike them right into position, so don't forget your icons.

I almost always use oblits but if I field havocs they are almost always 4 missle launchers, that's a jack of all trades weapon, good against most armor and can flatten a squad of most races infantry. plus they're not too expensive. in my experiance it's best to use all of one type of weapon, don't try to mix them up, it seams like a good idea to use like one of each in a squad but for some reason the dice never work out well when I do that.

Missiles are surly no good against land raiders.

Thank you all for the advice. The missile launcher seems like the most popular choice so far, but I'll wait for a bit more feedback. Thanks again!

Very true, but land raiders and monoliths are usually pretty rare compared to other vehicles and you still have an 18% chance of a glancing hit that's not too much worse then the 33% chance of a las cannon doing that at 15 points less per gun. I would recommend backing up your missle havocs with a plasma heavy chosen squad if possable, the chosen will protect the havocs from terminators at close range, or other nasties in the assault. that's the true bane of a havoc squad.

Sometimes it's not just a matter of what you equip your Havocs with, but also your other fire-support units. I usually field a Vindicator, a Defiler and a Predator. The Predator is armed with an Autocannon and Lascannon sponsons, which makes it an excellent tank hunter, especially against light and medium vehicles. Combined with the two ten-man w/ lascannon Troops choices I take, this gives me four lascannons to punish any heavy vehicles like Land Raiders, and also pumps out enough heavy firepower that 2+ units like Terminators tend to run for cover. The Defiler gives covering fire for my 'advance' units like Terminators, Possessed and special weapons squads, and does a good job of softening up enemy infantry before they're hit by my advancing infantry. The Vindicator tends to be a highly mobile infantry-unirape/tank hunter. Cover-hopping close enough to get a side-shot on a Baneblade is very satisfying indeed.

I only really use my Havocs in Apocalypse, where I take two squads, both armed with four Missile Launchers. I use them as a 'pad out' on the list, being one of my most effective anti-infantry units and capable of padding out my anti-tank fire against medium vehicles (plus, being PaK-40 conversions I just love them to bits and barely need an excuse to plop them on the table). I tend to use them as one massive unit, concentrating their fire on the same target. Because we have a large Cityfight/Apoc table, this means I can usually sit them at the end of a street and deny movement through it's entire length. Eight missiles severely punishes anything silly enough to underestimate them. I played against a Tyranid army (balanced, although the Hormogaunt swarms blotted out the ground beneath them, and there were no less than eight Carnifexes, along with several other nightmares), which I tend to be quite weak against. I focussed on taking down the big gribblies which I knew I was geared to deal with, and letting my more generic anti-infantry units deal with the swarms. These twelve brave Havocs faced off against three 32-strong Hormagaunt swarms charging down a wide street at them. Two turns of shooting saw the first two swarms reduced to less than a dozen each, but by that point the third unit hit and they were swallowed whole. The entire time all I could think of was the scene in Aliens with the two sentry guns and the endless swarm of Xenomorphs.

Barrakus

the chance of destroying the lr on glancing is slim and to even get a glancing hit is only possible on a 6 with the ML. As the main purpose of the land raider is to bring strong cc troops into cc it is not enough to just stun it or destroy a weapon. with potms it almost ignores stun anyway, so the only ways to stop it is to destroy or immobilise it. which is much more probable with las than with mls.

Also keep in mind that the 5th edition rules are about to be released. Vehicles will be harder to destroy. I think at glancing there will be no chance of destroying the vehicle with a single shot.

well as a tread head, I'm definitely looking forward to 5th ed. as for the land raider debate, Land raiders are very rare compared to other vehicles, you'll almost never see more than one or two on a table, that's what your back up support is for, just like Khargoth said above, he knows his stuff. Your biggest threat will be what comes out of the raider, that's why you use the chosen bodyguards. 8 missile launchers will tear up a space marine army rather well, if that land raider is the only thing left, you win.

In an all infantry list I tend to take two units of Havocs.

Unit 1 - 6 Havocs, 3 autocannons
Unit 2 - 6 Havocs, 4 heavy bolters

Tend to have AV weapons else where so these are my horde control and anti light vehicle.

I agree with the missles, but i do miss last codex's four squads of infultrating, havocs x4 autocannons with tank hunters.

ahh... don't we all.... :(

although we must admit, it was over the top.

What fritzes my servos is that Loyalists, thanks to the Trait system, can still take six Infiltrating Devastator squads.

Sont worrie about it to much within a few months of 5th edition the space marines are getting a new super codex with all of the off chapters *dark angles ect..* included. and they removed the trait system.

Hah, those loyalist mongrels don't dare face our tanks in the open, they hide like little children and make use of cowardly tactics to achieve their goals...

And THEY even dare to say we know nothing about honour or courage? <_<

Anyhow, back on topic...

I've simply had it with "miss"ile launchers. Maybe it's just me, but ever since I included "miss"ile launchers in my army, they haven't hit a darn thing. The Dice Gods wouldn't even let me hit a Carnifex which would assault my troops in the next turn! -It went pretty bad for that unit the next turn it charged.-

So I would say go for some heavy weapons with lots of dices, like Heavy Bolters. although they only can take down vehicles that have an Armour Value of 10, a well placed Havoc unit can take down nearly any none-super heavy tank -except the Leman Russ Demolisher, Land Raider and Necron Monolith, that is.- Heavy Bolters are a tad forgotten when it comes to anti-tank weapons, but I believe that -with some tactical skills- if you can manage to get some havocs armed with them behind enemy tanks, they will earn back their points many times over.

And besides, they're great for mowing down horde-armies as well :thumb:

4missile luncher in a 15 men squad with IoT deploy them in the most open area and 4 plasma gun in a 10 men squad with a champ arm with combie plasma and a IoN riding in a rhino or a LR .

When it comes to taking down lightly armoured vehicles I use autocannon armed Havocs. Only one point of S less than a Missile Launcher but 8 shots instead of 4.

They're a must against Dark Eldar and Orks. Plus, I use them against the Orks the few times I fought them, instead of Heavy Bolters - Orks are tough, and according to my experience it is better fire at them 8 times with S7 than 12 times with 5.

Ahh, where are the times of Tank Hunters veteran skill... One autocannon armed unit of Havocs had the same anti-vehicle potential as two units of Missile Launcher armed Devastators...

Wow, great feedback guys. I'm leaning toward the all missle squad :pwned , but I'm still thinking about dropping one launcher and sticking in an autocannon just in case. Thanks again, and I'll be checking out this thread for more feedback.

EDIT: BTW Khargoth, I love your idea of the Pak 40. Creative way to represent the launchers, and gives the squad some better Iron Warrior flavor. I think I saw a picture of 'em somewhere, but I never really knew what someone would play it as.

Dragon make an absolutely fantastic model for them, at a reasonable price. It comes with a turned aluminum barrel (take that mold and join lines!), etched brass detailing pieces, several turned brass shells, several muzzle brakes and wheel styles for different periods, 'clean' and 'worn' rubber tyres, and parts to make six crewmen with a multitude of optional extras and poses. All for less than a 5-man box of Space Marines.


Oh, and the whole thing can actuate up and down (the hydraulics rotate and move) and the loading mechanism can be operated, and the turned shells fit perfectly, meaning you can model the cannon mid-load. I bought one out of curiosity and conversion potential and had so much fun with the kit that I went out and grabbed another three.

wow, I like it. does this dragon comapny have a web site you can order from? if you don't mind I would like to take your idea anduse it for my renegade guard.

Whats the product code for that thing, it looks wonderful, also what scale is it ?


I think this is it. http://www.dragonmodelsltd.com/html/6249.htm

also can anyone say basalisk gun emplacments

http://www.dragon-models.com/html/6392poster.htm

Tho it turned out to be alittle pricy.

Suprisingly, there's a few variations on this kit. Mr Toys had one kit with the Heer gun crew, and AFAIK it had all the same extras as the kits I bought, which winds up making it the 'bonus edition'. There's a version of the Heer crew kit that only contains two muzzle brake and wheel variations, four crew and less etched brass extras.

The kit I bought was the PaK-40 with Fallshirmjager Crew:


I bought this version solely because the Heer gun crew came with (albeit extremely sexy) greatcoats, which would make them hard to integrate with my CSM parts.

Thanks for the linky. I like the look of the more lightly armored Marines. It's a cool look, although I'm leaning toward having the gun being operated by traitor guard with an Iron Warrior Siegemaster...

Since the new Dex is out, I use only one squad of Havocs. Six men strong, lead by a champ and armed with four heavy bolters. Their role on the battlefield should be clear.

Anti-Tank-Fire is done by my all-las-Pred and/or my oliterators or various meltaguns in the rest of the army.

In Apocalypse-Games I use two Havocs-Squads. One exactly as disribed above an one with 2 ML and 2 LC for additional tank-hunting.

First off, I have to say that the Pak40 conversion is nothing short of beautiful. I'm a big fan of Company of Heroes, and the pak38's are alternately my most favored and most hated units, depending on whether I'm playing Krauts or not. But back on topic....

I personally love autocannons, not just because they can deal with everything from tough infantry to light vehicles, but also because they look sweet. The Havoc w/ Autocannon that GW makes is surprisingly sweet, and the image of a bunch of these guys pouring out a torrent of fire over the battlefield pretty much defines Iron Warriors for me (well, that and my no longer useable bassie). That aside, they're good tactically for, as previously mentioned, ripping up orks. You can chew through the Trukks just as easily as you can the boyz. Also works well for carving up most 'nids.

Ok, I just whipped up a list, and I like the way 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons look, but I could always do the all heavy bolter and just put the lascannons on my Defiler. Comments?

Either anti infantry or anti armour.

Think of it that way - every turn you shoot your heavy bolters to chew through light infantry 70pts spent on lascannons are wasted, because both of these guns wound most infantry units on 2+ and offer them no save.

Then, every time you fire your lascannons at a tank, heavy bolters just tickle it. You loose less points because heavy bolters are cheaper, but a salvo from 4 lascannons is almost auto-kill for medium-heavy vehicles, while 2 are far from it.

It's a general rule of equiping Havocs - always give them all one weapon.

I'd have to disagree with that, an anti-infantry squad armed with two Autocannons and two Heavy Bolters gives you a bit more wallop against units like 'Ard Boyz and the extra Strength doesn't go astray on those precious To Wound rolls.

Likewise, two Autocannons and two Missile Launchers is the worst nightmare for medium vehicles and infantry alike. You lose quantity of shooting, but quality makes up for it, especially against armies who have 4+ saves on their 'valuable' units, such as IG and Orks.

I honestly don't endorse placing Lascannons in the hands of Havocs. I used to use five-man squads armed soley with a lascannon (classic min/maxing is for noobs, plasma guns go in their own squads) to pad out my heavy weapons fire, but requiring 150 points of cannon fodder and paying 35pts for the one lascannon is wasteful spending. Likewise is 215pts for four lascannons. Pass me a Predator, thanks. I'm a major tread-head, and people think I'm crazy because apparently an IG army maxed-out with lascannons would eat me for lunch. But, these same people prove time and time again that they forget that tanks are actually pretty mobile. They expect me to keep my tanks stationary and gun away for Mutually Assured Destruction. Instead, I cover-hop 24" up the table and plant an energized photon kiss on the side of your Falcon/Hammerhead. Sometimes I tag-team a Predator with a Vindicator, and my opponent is so busy being afraid of the Vindicator that my Predator breaks two of his tanks before he thinks about shooting at it. Firing Demolisher Cannons at scenery and hoping the 2D6 scatter sends the round somewhere amusing works a treat as a distraction. I've had the round scatter back onto the Vindicator twice for four times it's landed on an enemy unit. I don't mind those odds, especially when you consider how funny I find my Vindicator blowing itself up.

I always loved the layout of total autocannons with maybe one missle luancher or heavy bolter in there.

for the rain of death they lay down. For loyal dogs of the Corpse.....its like lawn mowing.

(cept when they all miss.....then its just depressing)


I also lean over to using plasma/missle squads. Though I like to keep the ranges on my havocs pretty much the same in a squad.

And my Vindicator......


I think my last two games it may have killed itself somehow..

I personally agree with burnart, but if you do mix guns, keep them to the same type at least, anti infantry ot anti tank. remember in most games they will be able to shoot at no more than 6 targets, you want to do as much damage as you can to those targets when you hit them.

You know something the Tau get,( I think its a multi-tracker), allows squad members to fire at differnt targets.

Would that not be a great addition to a Havoc squad?

But than again, as in my style of play.......I unload everything on a target until it is scrap or shreds.

It seems that I'm going to be running into a few 'nid players soon, and I'm looking at kitting out these bad boys with all flamers and a rhino with a combi-flamer.

I'd rather go for autocannons or heavy bolters. If you're close enough to the 'Nids to use a flamer you're alredy dead.

Havocs are purely ranged combat troops. There's only ten of them, and the Aspiring Champion is not especialy well equiped for cc, mainly because he usualy spends the entire battle standing there and shooting his bolter.

Is it even wise to take a champ for havocs?

I imagine if they are supposed to shoot only, they can do without the expensive champ. But if you kit them to go into cc or expect them to be attacked, a champ would come in handy.

Well, with the previous Codex I used to spend odd points on Aspiring Champion with a Power Weapon, but yes, it is rarely useful, mainly because if Havocs are actualy engaged in close combat their enemies are Assault Marines, Terminators or something equaly deadly.

The only exception to this are Plasma Rifle armed Havocs. I use them more rarely now we don't have Veteran Skills (no infiltration - no fun) but when I do field them one of them often carries a Flamer and thare always is a well armed Aspiring Champion to lead them, so they won't be killed by a low ranked unit that assaults them.

Back on the case of anti-nids Havocs, a unit with four Flamers can actualy be useful, but only when backed up by something very good in cc. But generaly I still think that coming close a Tyranid ON PURPOSE is crazy.

Well, I'm still painting it, but I have a new Havoc unit, 4 Missile Launchers. Since my main opponents are usualy playing Marines, the whole S8 AP3 thing is ideal. And it can take out pretty much any tank, bar Land Raiders and Monoliths in 5th Edition. And the S4 templates would be useful against Nids and Orks, but if they scatter now...

And they have a Champion, with an Icon (because they will be shot at, and I want them to stay there), Combi-Melta (hey, it's 10 points, and that one-off Meltagun shot might be useful!), and a Power Weapon. Considering my other Champions have Power Fists and Meltabombs, this is ridiculously cheap, if they are involved in combat, it shouldn't be a vehicle, rather a unit that is there to stop them from firing, so the Power Weapon is more help for a small unit than the Power Fist.

That, and everyone assumes Havocs are rubbish in combat, not so. They all do still get the basic 2 Attacks, as the Heavy Weapon replaces the Bolter, and not the Pistol or Combat Weapon. And if I need to save points, the champion's Power Weapon can easily be counted as a Close Combat Weapon, as it's a sledgehammer :fishwack:

My view of getting close to nids was that I would drive up in the rhino and disembark and flame, with backup from the combi-flamer on the rhino. That, or I would do drivebys. I just don't see why people are so afraid to get into CC with havocs. Just because they are stereotyped as a long range shooting role doesn't mean they aren't just as awesome in CC as any other CSM with a pistol and chainsword, right?